Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 135

What should an article on Opera aimed at 8-13 year-olds look like?
(A thought experiment -- I am not suggesting anybody gets involved in this).

I've just bumped into Vikidia, a wiki-based, wikipedia-like project aimed at 8-13 year-olds, and it has an article on Opera. Without looking, what sort of thing do you think should be in there? How would you explain opera to an audience that age?

(I am not now, nor have I ever been, a parent, so I had to just guess when making my own back-of-a-beermat list of points to include). Scarabocchio (talk) 08:10, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't start with "An opera is completely sung from beginning to end." as their article does. And I wouldn't stop in 1791 – that doesn't encourage youfs to engage with opera. OTOH, I'm doubtful about the reach of Vikidia, so it probably doesn't matter much. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:47, 9 November 2022 (UTC)


 * @, I suggest looking at the many teacher's guides to opera available online. For example, Seattle Opera's teacher guide, Metropolitan Opera's Opera In the Classroom, Los Angeles Opera Lesson Plans and Resources, Opera Colorado's Opera For Beginners etc. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:48, 9 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I was thinking .. more on it being 400 years-old (400!) (perhaps something on Italy families/cities at the time) // originally by&for aristos // but public & commercial within 40 years // explicitly saying that it was telling stories through words and music, originally classical and later contemporary // singer as star (castrati) // Mozart as Wunderkind and then pauper // impresarios and rise of composers // something something // recordings and Caruso // explorations of new genres and hybrids (jazz, 12-tone) ended by WWII // something something // Oh, and PS:Alma Deutscher.
 * I have lots of anecdotes from Victor Borge's My Favourite Intervals jumping up and down in my mind, demanding to be included. (Oh, and as the French version of the article spells out, "no microphones"). Scarabocchio (talk) 18:57, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Dido's Lament video FPC
File:Henry Purcell "Dido & Aeneas" (extrait) - Les Arts Florissants, William Christie.webm has been nominated as a ; the nomination can be found |here. Since the falls under this WikiProject's scope, I am posting this notice here. It currently needs more comments, so if you've got time, |please comment on the nomination page. Thanks in advance! czar 21:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This seems a rather controversial nomination overall. I suggest to others to read the discussion at the nomination and vote.--Smerus (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Notability guidelines?
Der langwierige Weg in die Wohnung der Natascha Ungeheuer has just acquired a silly tag, but it made me wonder if there are other notability guidelines than WP:NSONG or WP:NALBUM: the Classical & Opera Project pages don't have obvious pointers. Sparafucil (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

RfC
A request for comment was initiated for soprano Jenny Lind. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:46, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
 * More specifically, this is an RfC about installing an infobox in the article, rather than anything about Lind herself.--Smerus (talk) 10:21, 2 February 2023 (UTC).
 * I tried to keep it neutral. A few editors seem still to think that an infobox is a contentious topic. From the 2019 (!) discussion about changing the guidelines for project opera: "In my view there is no longer a clear consensus to say that this project does not recommend them. Several of our members (including me) now use them in biographical articles as a matter of course. However, there is not a consensus to recommend them either, and I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future. Needless to say, after having to close at least two acrimonious and highly personalised discussions on this subject in the last couple of years, I have zero desire to go around and around the merits or sins of biographical infoboxes yet again. If you write an article, and if, like the Encyclopædia Britannica and the Australian Dictionary of Biography, you think adding Infobox person is useful and appropriate, add it. If you don't, then don't. I do change Infobox musical artist to Infobox person, if I run across them. Otherwise, pace gioia. Voceditenore (talk) 11:13, 6 June 2019 (UTC)"


 * Melitta Muszely died, RIP. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:35, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Jenny Lind has an infobox now, as Jessye Norman and Maria Callas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:27, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Need help to review possible paid edits
There is a long list of pages quoted as proof of work on a paid editor's price list. They correspond to edits and articles created by user Fu-Lank. All of their pages need to be reviewed! I feel like I'm starting to lose my cool and don't want this to affect my edits. All I wanted to do this weekend was start on new articles.... Anyway, if anyone feels like looking into this user's edits on opera singers Christel Loetzsch, Simon Wallfisch , Patrick Vogel , or any of the other musicians listed on the COI noticeboard, please, please do! OrestesLebt (talk) 17:20, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Simon Wallfisch is cleaned up now. OrestesLebt (talk) 07:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Christel Loetzsch (or Christel Lötzsch) is cleaned up now. OrestesLebt (talk) 18:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Patrick Vogel is cleaned up. OrestesLebt (talk) 10:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

All of Fu-Lank's pages listed on Conflict of interest/Noticeboard are cleaned up now. I assume they don't have many watchers, it would be great if someone could take a quick look! OrestesLebt (talk) 23:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi OrestesLebt, many thanks for this. I’ve had a look at all three and they seem OK now. I know from experience how much time this kind of work entails and how boring it can be when you have your own articles you’d rather be working on. Your work is much appreciated. Voceditenore (talk) 09:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, @Voceditenore! OrestesLebt (talk) 19:27, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Greetings from the German language Opera Project
Hello, just wanted to say Hi! from the German language Opera Project. We started in the beginning of 2011, a very recent effort compared to you. Likewise, our average articles on operas, composers etc. are quite behind the en:WP in terms of coverage and content. Which is a shame, considering the richness of opera life in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. We have started by focussing on the widely read articles on popular operas, see this List, which gives page impressions in de:WP and en:WP and also global number of productions per year as a proxy for popularity. The rationale is this: given our low number of contributors, having 20 formerly poor articles on popular operas turned into solid works is worth more then 20 more articles on arcane subjects. How did you go about growing your project? PS: Maybe there could be some areas of cooperation, especially as regards access to and understanding of German language sources and literature. Let me know what you think. --Non mi tradir (talk) 16:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I have introduced this timely proposal to the discussion here. --Smerus 20:27, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * One of the reasons can be found in the people who worked on this project years ago. Back around 2005-2006, there was an opera fan who took on a personal mission to improve opera in en.WP. This is User:Kleinzach.  It's not only that he improved articles.  He was an excellent promoter of the cause, enlisting a number of people from the email list OPERA-L, who, along with him, abridged their email participation because they felt that contributing to WP was a better cause.  He was very helpful and encouraging to those who wanted to help.  These people in turn took off on their own.  (He inspired me to create a WP account back in 2006, though I didn't contribute to WP:OPERA back then). As I have often remarked on Wikipedia, it's not just about adding information - it's about creating and maintaining a social environment that makes people want to contribute. - kosboot (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * User:Non mi tradir was active until June/July 2012, a burst of 17 edits in April 2013, and then just five more across 2017 and 2018. This section could be archived now? Scarabocchio (talk) 17:58, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

WikiProject X
This is an initiative to improve WikiProjects and other subject-area collaborations on Wikipedia through research, design, and experimentation. The archive of their past newsletters is here. The WikiProject X coordinator is Harej. – Voceditenore (talk) 11:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * According to the WikiProject X page, the project is defunct, effectively closing on Sepetember 2019. This section could be archived now? Scarabocchio (talk) 18:06, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. Thanks Scarabocchio. Voceditenore (talk) 18:22, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Adding the template to WPO articles
I've marked up the foreign language work titles and terms in italics in two WPO articles with the lang template. This identifies the language of foreign text in the article, as required by MOS/Text formatting § Foreign terms. The two items marked up are the table in the List of operas by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and the body text of the French opera article.

I'm looking at the challenge of writing scripts to assist the tagging up of foreign CreativeWork titles within enWP to identify their languages. The above MOS link explains the rationale behind this.

For those who are interested in following this experiment, I have set up CSS to tint the background of language-tagged WP content. lang=fr is tinted blue; lang=de yellow; lang=it green; lang=la lightgreen (hey, don't shout at me .. I'm an editor not a linguist). The (evolving) list is at User:Scarabocchio/common.css. Wish me luck. Scarabocchio (talk) 12:44, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Applying and its treatment of italics can be fraught. Should terms like Lied or Singspiel be in italics? Should Regieoper, Regietheater? Sotto voce, falsetto, Sprechgesang? What about Au fond du temple saint, Nessun dorma, Bist du bei mir? The answers may be different for these, but each needs careful consideration and regard for existing use and respective guidelines on Wikipedia. Simply surrounding these terms with  will very often be wrong. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:23, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It is possible to use italic=no in the template. What a coincidence, I was thinking about using just the other day, what a coincidence! I say, why not?! How would I use this CSS, @Scarabocchio? OrestesLebt (talk) 13:51, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just create a common.css file in your own home page subdirectory, as User:OrestesLebt/common.css That's it. Scarabocchio (talk) 14:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Done, thank you! OrestesLebt (talk) 14:16, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * My primary stimulus for this is tagging the work titles up, but also adding the terms in italic was very little extra effort. The use of italic hints that the term has not native in English. The template could also be applied to non-italic foreign language terms, of course, but then you would need to draw up a list. Scarabocchio (talk) 14:13, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * About half of the aria titles in Die Zauberflöte have been tagged up, and all of them with the italic=no attribute. Scarabocchio (talk) 14:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oupss!!! Apparently, the tagging up was done by one  in August 2014. Grandmother, these are eggs. Sorry (and all of araias have been tagged, bar one, not just half of them). Scarabocchio (talk) 14:42, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Buon Compleanno!
Buon Compleanno, Gioachino! Had this been a leap year, today would be your 231st birthday, but onwards to 2024, not only the next leap year but the 20th anniversary of the Opera Project. Voceditenore (talk) 10:47, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * pace gioia - good reasons to celebrate, and thank you for pointing it out.
 * About 10 years ago, Brian Boulton who did great things for project opera without being a member, wrote in Wikipedia Signpost/2013-07-10/Dispatches: "Infoboxes: time for a fresh look?" Can we - interested in opera - now take another fresh look, untroubled by heat and flames? infobox opera was designed then, first resisted, but over the years accepted in more than 1,500 articles, such as Carmen by Brian Boulton in 2014. It seems the normal feature for operas by now, and whoever still doesn't want it is free to simply revert. Per WP:BRD, a talk page discussion may follow - or not. pace gioia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:30, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

La Wally
La Wally is featured on the Main page today, with the excellent image by Adam Cuerden. Sadly, the novel on which it's based is a red link, of a looong plot in German. I tried to clarify at least a bit what gave the free-spirited girl her name: having performed a dangerous job that had been only performed by men. The article has a nice infobox (by Voceditenore, 2017), the coverage of the main aria (composed before) and its use in film is fine, roles, plot and recordings sections are decent, but it lacks a lead and (worse) has nothing about the music, also comes with several red links in the recordings. Help? -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Bonaventura Bottone
If anyone feels up to it, this article could do with some de-pufferizing. It was started and heavily edited back in 2009 by his self-admitted PR person who started several other articles by artists he/she represented. From the edit summaries, the current editor appears to be the subject or at least claims to be the subject. Voceditenore (talk) 17:27, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Norwegian mezzo-soprano category issue
Hei hei! I've been scouring enwiki through petscan for biographies of women to translate for nowiki for our ongoing work related to Women In Red, and I noticed that there's a categorization issue related to an opera singer. I queried on where to go on the unofficial Discord channel, and I was directed here.

The category Category:Norwegian operatic mezzo-sopranos was categorized as Category:Norwegian women opera singers. The former category includes opera singer Adrian Angelico, a trans man, who would get categorized as a woman in this case. The gendered category has been removed by another user after my query on the Discord, but I'm uncertain if this might interfer with the categorization of the other biographies in the mezzo-sopranos category. What's the desired course of action here? EdoAug (talk) 12:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi! I added that parent category (Norwegian women opera singers) to Category:Norwegian operatic mezzo-sopranos last November and restored it today after it had been removed by User:Carpimaps. I summarized my reasoning in my edit summary: "restore Category:Norwegian women opera singers, notwithstanding Adrian Angelico – see WP:SUBCAT '(with possibly a few exceptions)' and consistency within the category tree Category:Mezzo-sopranos." -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Got it, thanks for informing me. I might have been a bit reckless there since I never read any of the category guidelines. Carpimaps (talk) 13:04, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Operabase
Operabase is a serious source? Nivent2007 (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2023 (UTC)


 * For individual singers it can be a source, if the singer is a subscriber. Operabase has a huge database, but hides data from non-subscribers and from visitors to the site, e.g. details of past performances after a few years. In addition, the data is not 100% reliable, sometimes the double cast for a role is listed on each date of a performance run, or changes in date and casting are not reflected. However, it can be confirmed that a singer has been contracted to sing a role by a corresponding listing on Operabase, if it has a red mask icon that indicates the data was verified. Their statistics are based on data from their subscribers, not from every opera company on the planet. If every non-subscribing company performed Fidelio in the same year, but none of the subscribing companies did, it would not show up in the list of most performed operas of the year, even though it was! More importantly, their lists do not reflect audience reception. (If Carmen was to be given in 100 productions, but plays in front of empty houses, and La bohème had 50 productions an all were sold out, Operabase would still list Carmen higher.) Therefore, no conclusions about an opera's popularity can be drawn from Operabase data alone; attendance figures must also be taken into account. OrestesLebt (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @ I would consider Operabase a WP:PRIMARY source that should be used with caution. Generally speaking, the database is accurate (if it wasn't they wouldn't be able to function as an industry business), but as OrestesLebt stated, there are errors that can occur. More importantly though, Operabase's primary function isn't research but to act as an industry resource tool for singers (or their managers/PR firm) to market themselves to opera companies (see ); indeed subscribing requires you to designate yourself as either an artist, manager, or arts organization. That's the primary goal of the organization; to assist in casting for professional opera productions. The database/service is used widely by professional opera companies, artist management firms, and professional singers.


 * That said, the company does also market themselves for use by academics and journalists (see ); although oddly you can not subscribe under a researcher designation (at least not that I could find). That said, I find it useful for researching productions staged by a particular company, or performances of a given work or by a given artist. However, once I locate that information in operabase, I then look for sources confirming that information elsewhere in reliable WP:SECONDARY sources such as published reviews of a given production. In other words, operabase lets me find the content I want, which then gives me enough clues to hunt down a better more reliable source with the same content. So, yes, its useful in research, and yes it is a serious source in the sense that it's content widely relied upon in the professional opera community for casting professional opera productions. However, I would avoid using it as a reference because it is a primary source generated by a for-profit industry business, and it's not clear what sort of editorial controls are in place.4meter4 (talk) 00:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Then I would suggest to delete that reference from La traviata's introduction. Nivent2007 (talk) 08:37, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Variations of this statement have been in the article . It is undoubtedly true that La traviata is "immensely popular," alas no one seems to have published a nice secondary source for that. (edit: Obviously many have cited Bachtrack and/or Operabase statistics to call La traviata popular, what I mean is an analysis of its popularity over time.) The article has been updated from time to time with then current statistics. I've now changed it in the performance history section, added another recent source for performance statistics, and replaced the archived snapshot of Operabase statistic with the current working URL. (Since the relaunch, Operabase seems to have stable URLs, fingers crossed!) Thank you for pointing this out, @Nivent2007. OrestesLebt (talk) 17:56, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

La fanciulla del West
Hi all. I have done some work on the performance history and critical assessment of the opera. I wouldn't mind some proofreading and/or feedback. Thanks.4meter4 (talk) 13:54, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Update. I created an article on Fancuilla's librettist Guelfo Civinini. Definitely one of the more interesting opera librettists I have written or read about. He led quite a diverse and interesting life.4meter4 (talk) 18:06, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Info-boxes in opera articles
In the context: An infobox I added to Robert le diable was reverted, - please discuss on the talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:28, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

See also a suggestion on my talk regarding more factual discussions, for infoboxes the same as for other content. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:27, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The reason that there are not more is that so many editors stopped actively contributing to the project during the previous infobox wars. This project is a shadow of its former self. Look at the stats. This behaviour is not opening old wounds to pour salt in, it is ploughing salt into the ground so they will never return, and the project will be the worse for that. Scarabocchio (talk) 15:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Gerda, why do you keep doing this? You must know that this is inflammatory, so is it because you want to cause trouble? "A few editors seem still to think that an infobox is a contentious topic"
 * I don't understand why the few lines of the standard infobox opera are inflammatory. I don't talk about composers, although I don't understand it for them either - five lines: born where and when, died where and when, list of works. Please explain what is inflammatory? - We didn't have infobox disputes for about five years, and I enjoyed it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:01, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I took the idea to treat infoboxes like other topics from Voceditenore, quoted just above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:04, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You may not understand *WHY* it is inflammmatory, but do you understand that *IS* inflammatory? [yes / no]? Scarabocchio (talk) 20:32, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, let me refine that. In a team activity, like editing WP, the *reason* that some people find this upsetting/ negative/ disturbin/ whathaveyou is much less important than the *fact* that some (obviously, clearly) do. The question remains the same: do you understand that *IS* inflammatory? [yes / no]? Scarabocchio (talk) 20:36, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I dislike that the header of this thread was changed from a neutral "Opera" to "Inflammatory behaviour". I am sorry that a user left whom I always held in high esteem, but can't help feeling that to get upset about the addition of an infobox to an opera, when more than 1000 operas, and especially most important ones by both article quality and popularity, have one, is an exaggerated response. He could have simply reverted, and I would have accepted a personal dislike, as I accepted it for Richard Wagner and Fanny Mendelssohn. - What can we do to reduce the temperature in the matter? By now even many important composers have an infobox. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:44, 2 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I retitled it for civility purposes. Please calm down both of you. On a side note, I think its a bit disingenuous to blame declining participation all on this this one issue. I know I haven't been around nearly as much of late. Real life has kept me busy and I am sure that there are others who are no longer as active for similar reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with conflict here. Out of curiosity... which editor left our project due to info-box conflicts? 4meter4 (talk) 23:50, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Smerus. Principal author of Robert le diable, one of several of Carl Nielsen, principal of FAs Chopin and Wagner, and GA Fanny Mendelssohn. I tried to person to person, and was reverted, followed by a retired banner, and page blanking. - I hope he will reconsider, but obviously I'm not the one to approach him. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I am sorry to hear that. is a highly valued editor in our little community. His absence will be keenly felt. In light of this information, I suggest Gerda that you abandon placing infoboxes where they are contested on WP:WikiProject Opera articles for now on. That means no arguing if someone who is an active member of this project wants to get rid of it. Accept it and take it down. Particularly within articles that you yourself have not created. Fighting for info-boxes at the expense of losing our best content creators is not ok. I would rather see our project have more quality opera articles created and have more participating editors then allow a relatively trivial issue like info-boxes break the community we have built. Info-boxes are optional and not essential in comparison to content creators and participating project members who are essential for the sustainability of the project. Put people and the sustainability of the project first.4meter4 (talk) 00:56, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You did not hear me. I didn't "fight", ever. I added an infobox to Robert le diable when the opera was on the Main page, for the many readers who look on such a day. I also improved the article that day, feel free to check. I was ready to see it reverted within minutes, and would not have said a word. Instead, it was reverted days later, and my behaviour called disgraceful. (That's still on my talk.) I stayed as calm as I could (although yes, I found it inflammatory), responding on my talk, pleading to discuss without comments about people (at least for seven weeks of which this is the last one), and on the opera talk, and beginning this neutral thread. Now tell me please how I should calm down. - The latest RfCs about infoboxes (for opera composers - Mozart - and also for film directors - Stanley Kubrick - and poets - W. B. Yeats) tell me that it is the community that wants infoboxes. Can we find a way to preserve the articles of a few editors infobox-free? And how? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:39, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with the comments of 4meter4 above It is sad that the editor appears to have left Wikipedia. The Robert le Diable article is excellent. I have created and worked on opera articles and seen the arguments about infoboxes. In general I am an infobox-sceptic for all the reasons that have been made by others far better than me. I no longer see any point in getting involved with that question, as those who want them have seemingly unending time and energy to wear down any opposing arguments. So I steer clear.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:46, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Gerda, I think your persistence in taking infoboxes to places to where they are foreseeably likely to cause conflicts like the Robert le diable article is an example of poor judgement on your part. You know which editors here have argued with you over infoboxes (such as Smerus) in the past, and you know which articles those editors have dedicated their time to (in this case you knew Smerus was heavily invested in the Robert le diable article). While certainly those editors don't WP:OWN those articles, intentionally placing info boxes on those article seems WP:POINTY and the end result is we lost one of the core and best editors of this project. I am not happy with your conscious decision to push info boxes in places where they will create conflict, upset project members, and with the end result being editor attrition at WikiProject Opera. It's not good for our project.4meter4 (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * My take: Smerus is not the only editor to have retired due to the "Infobox Wars". The other editor returned within a year however. I  personally do not like Gerda's seeming passive-aggressive behavior in some of these "Box Rebellions", but if done fairly and carefully, anyone is entitled to BOLDLY add material to an article in good faith, and if reverted they are entitled create an RFC to get community consensus on the matter. That is entirely within Wikipedia's collaborative spirit and guidelines and policies. What I personally don't like to see is endless accusations and moralizations and excuses and diatribes and whining and stone-throwing and martyrdom and on and on. Stop making things personal; stop carrying out personal vendettas. Stop discussing on talkpages and just file completely neutral RFCs instead. I say this to both sides of the equation, as I have no set opinion on infoboxes, and assess each of them in context on the merits. Softlavender (talk) 00:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Input request
Members may wish to comment here as some opera singers have been the recipient of this award. The outcome could also impact other categories on awards in the arts by setting a precedent. All opinions welcome. See Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 1.4meter4 (talk) 19:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

FAR for His Majesty's Theatre, London
User:Buidhe has nominated His Majesty's Theatre, London for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Featured Article Save Award for His Majesty's Theatre, London
There is a Featured Article Save Award nomination at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/His Majesty's Theatre, London/archive1. Please join the discussion to recognize and celebrate editors who helped assure this article would retain its featured status. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  01:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Proofreading request: Salzburg Easter Festival
I have substantially expanded the article about the Salzburg Easter Festival (a few months too late to be topical, I’m afraid…). As English is not my native language, I’d appreciate a bit of proofreading if someone has time to lose. Thanks in advance! Keriluamox (talk) 15:44, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Wow!!!!–What an impressive expansion! I will attempt to take a look later this week.  Aza24  (talk)   20:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Archie Drake
I recently noticed Draft:Archie Drake. The article needs some help with sourcing, but he appears notable. Thriley (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Please have a look at THIS
The Draft:Olivia Fuchs has been declined. I am shocked.--213.246.133.193 (talk) 14:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I had a quick look. I suggest that you sign up with a name, - some here have a prejudice when an article comes from what we call an IP. Next: the subject is young, and a woman: more prejudice. For some reviewers, opera is a almost alien topic: more prejudice. Next: the ideal to have inline citations for all major facts is not really achieved. How about using this, which convinced me that she is notable. I'll keep watching. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * IP, looking at the draft, it is not particularly shocking. As Gerda says, you really need to cite every single piece of information from a source. Otherwise, how are we supposed to know you aren't making it up?—or that it's true? I recommend using Cite news and filling in the parameters there for citations. –  Aza24  (talk)   16:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, due to your support and your recommendations the article has now been published in English and in German Wikipedia. Dear Gerda, best wishes from the Continent .... --212.41.231.74 (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Input request on article title
Please comment at Talk:Burlesque Opera of Tabasco.4meter4 (talk) 03:18, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Great reference
Hi all. I just discovered the Retrospective Index to Music Periodicals (1760–1966); a website which provides access to historic music journals. It has a treasure trove of material for this project. I would encourage taking a look at what all is available. Best.4meter4 (talk) 12:19, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Not just an index but they're going back and trying to supply full-text. Although a non-profit, it's entirely a paid enterprise which you access through your local research library. - kosboot (talk) 12:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Andrea Carè
This article needs some editing for tone as well as the addition of secondary sources and wikilinks.4meter4 (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Just added some wikilinks. Nivent2007 (talk) 23:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Children's opera
We have a category Category:Children's operas but no larger article on the subject. I would imagine this could make a good article on a more a central topic for the project if someone feels inspired to take it on. @, I know that you aren't around as much, but if you are up to tackling it, this seems like a topic you might excel at. Any other hands willing to work on it would be appreciated. Best.4meter4 (talk) 17:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Leányvásár
I ceated an article on Leányvásár, a Hungarian operetta by Victor Jacobi with a libretto by Miklós Bródy and Ferenc Martos. It premiered on 14 November 1911 at the Király Színház (King Theater) in Budapest.

My attempt was reverted here], because it substantially duplicated material in the article about the operetta's first English adaptation, The Marriage Market. Wikipedia also has an article about another adaptation, Szibill. Shouldn't these two articles about the adaptations be merged into a parent article about Leányvásár? Would anyone like to undertake this in a way that it will not be reverted? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Le%C3%A1nyv%C3%A1s%C3%A1r&oldid=prev&diff=1179394463


 * @Ssilvers, I reverted the reversion and started a discussion at Talk:Leányvásár.4meter4 (talk) 02:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge proposal. Project members may wish to comment at Talk:Leányvásár which is proposing that both The Marriage Market and Szibill be merged into Leányvásár.4meter4 (talk) 04:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Le magazine de l'opéra baroque
The link to http://jean-claude.brenac.pagesperso-orange.fr no longer works and one gets the message: "Arrêt du service Pages perso Le service Pages perso est arrêté définitivement depuis le 05 septembre 2023." Fortunately, Le magazine de l'opéra baroque has a new url: https://operabaroque.fr/. We probably need to update pages with links to the old website, but I don't know how to find them. Robert.Allen (talk) 21:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "M. Brenac" retired and handed his site over in September 2015, and he hadn't used the pagesperso site for far longer than that. Fortunately, Google tells us that there are but three pages using the pagesperso format. Have fun. Scarabocchio (talk) 12:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I went ahead and updated those, but I did not find the page La morte d'Orfeo using a similar search, possibly because the old url only appeared in the edit window. Unsure, but it seems possible we may not be finding pages where the old url is hidden, e.g. Pascal Collasse. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah. A different URL format, used by another 9 pages. This may take some time :) Scarabocchio (talk) 07:32, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The old site seems to be archived at Internet Archive here. If as you say the new operabaroque.fr site is not being updated, an alternative might be for IABot to add the archived copy of these pages with the old links. The bot may be capable of finding the old links even when they are hidden. Or the archived pages could be linked in addition to updating the original links so they point to the new site. I like that the old pages do not have ads, plus the the archived copies should be more permanent. --Robert.Allen (talk) 16:26, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The site was passed on as a going concern. Certainly the idea was that it would be maintained, extended. I haven't used the new site enough, or recently, to know how much additional material has been added, or even if it has. Scarabocchio (talk) 20:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Category:Ballets by topic has been nominated for merging
Given that WP:WikiProject Dance is inactive, and that many ballets exist within operas, I am copy pasting this notice from my talk page to make editors here aware of the discussion:

Category:Ballets by topic has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you.4meter4 (talk) 13:37, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Category:Outer space in fiction has been nominated for deletion
Category:Operas set in outer space is a category of the project and is a subcat of this category. I am reposting this notification from my talk page. All opinions welcome. Category:Outer space in fiction has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you.4meter4 (talk) 16:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Chinese opera in scope?
On the occasion of Tale of the Moon Cuckoo becoming a 'good article' I would like some clarification on this project's scope. The "Scope" section overleaf gives 'Opera' in its 1st line; that article makes a distinction between Western style opera, Western opera in Chinese, and traditional Chinese opera. Up to now, the last genre was not in this project's scope. Clearly, the Moon Cuckoo is not a Western style opera. I suggest we keep the scope as it has been defined at least since 2008 and remove the project banner from that article. If a change in scope is proposed and accepted, that needs to be expressed overleaf and a lot of articles and categories need to to be recategorised. The project would also need to develop new guidelines for that genre, and acquire editors familiar with the genre and resources to support it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:11, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not within this project's scope. The article was also in the wrong opera cats and did not identify itself within the correct art form genre. This should never have been made a GA.4meter4 (talk) 14:11, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * , would you care to comment? I believe you reverted 's changes to categories and WikiProject scope. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:13, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Accepting the difference. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment We already had a consensus discussion on this and made a clear project decision to not include art forms outside Western opera. Western opera comes from a different place entirely, has different performing practices, and has a different musical and theatre heritage than theatre that originated in Asia. Lumping them together in my view is unethical in terms of both cultural appropriation and academic integrity.4meter4 (talk) 14:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gerda (sorry for the double ping) and Michael, there is an ongoing discussion at the article talk page where your opinion would be welcomed, along with anyone else who sees this. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Request for input
There is a current discussion over the appropriateness of a particular quote about composer Samuel Barber at Talk:Samuel Barber. The quote in question was written by Donal Henahan in The New York Times. This is the quote and source: "Probably no other American composer has ever enjoyed such early, such persistent and such long-lasting acclaim." The quote was removed from the lead of the article here: Please comment at the discussion at: Talk:Samuel Barber. All opinions are welcome.4meter4 (talk) 20:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Jacques Pottier
Jacques Pottier died, in September, coming to my attention only now. I have the habit of finding sources and make the article better. Tough in this case. There's an impressive list of operas sung at the Paris Opéra, but no roles, and I suspect that yes, he sang in Tristan und Isolde, but not Tristan but perhaps the shepherd. Just an example. GLS has no entry. Online Merker links to the English Wikipedia. The article was written in 2010 by his agent, the person's only entry besides a deleted one about himself. What should we do? I cut a lot already. Suspicions were raised here. He recorded with Stravinsky with Boulez, that's something ;) -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Jacques Villisech
I missed in 2021 that someone added exactly when and where Jacques Villisech was born and died, while we had none of that before. No source. I tend to keep it that way, - could have been a relative. An IP later changed the day of birth from 14 Nov to 21 Nov (which is why I noticed today). Opinions? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Among the authority control records listed at his article, that date, 21 November, is given at https://www.idref.fr/155739891 . -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, helped. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The WikiProject pages / Online research
Browsing one of the subpages of Wikiproject Opera, on online resources, it's clear that it is out-of-date. Nobody is maintaining it (I am the only person to edit it over the last five years), and the much of info is incomplete, broken and/or out-of-date. It would be *possible* for someone to give the page a complete overhaul and update, but that's a huge amount of work -- basically it would need to be a rewrite.

BUT the page is also unused, with zero pageviews in recent times.

I suggest that it is deleted. Thoughts? Scarabocchio (talk) 01:14, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * User:Voceditenore created this page in 2008, and from memory, advertised it on these talk pages. The pageview statistic shows about 19 views per month since 2015, 13 and declining since 2022, but it's not zero. I can't see any benefit in deleting it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)


 * It's had just five pageviews in the last 90 days, and even that includes two of my edits. The page needs work, but I'll not be wasting any more of my time on an unread page. Scarabocchio (talk) 10:42, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * When I created that page 16 years ago, there was a real need for it at the project. Now, not so much, and I agree it needs updating, but I see no point in deleting it outright, although I wouldn’t object if that’s the general consensus. There is still some useful info there. Why not leave a note on top to the effect of the page being archived. Voceditenore (talk) 12:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Nice to see you return, Voceditenore. - kosboot (talk) 13:53, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * same ;) - I never looked at the page before, and see no reason to delete. We could make a note that information may be dated, but that it's everybody's turn to change things they see wrong. I just checked Bach Cantatas, and what it says is correct. I didn't check Bayreuth Festival and Metropolitan Opera archives (yet, and have little time, updating an opera composer's article, Romuald Twardowski), - those two changed their sites. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:01, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Voce, I deliberately didn't tag you on the initial post as I wanted to test the water first before bothering you. I'm retired from the project, but a google search on Opera News led me to this page. As it was out-of-date, I just thought that that didn't look good, and that it should be addressed. I'm agnostic on whether the solution is 'kill' or 'cure'. Scarabocchio (talk) 21:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The key point is if I wanted to research something, where would I start .. Google or the reference pages of the project? One possible way to weight the answer towards the project is to rewrite the top of the project and/or talk pages to raise the profile of all of the subpages. It would have to be done is such a way to overcome the learnt behaviour of reaching for Google whenever you are looking for something. Possible? I'm not sure. Scarabocchio (talk) 21:30, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Reassessment request for Nino Martini
Cioa fellow Editors: The biography about the lyric Italian operatic tenor Nino Martini (a student of the famed Giovanni Zenatello who perfromed regularly under Alfredo Antonini in New York City as well as at the Metropolitan Opera was last assessed as a "Start" article in 2009 but may now qualify as a "C" article due to the addition of new content, photographs and several External Media links to his performances from the 1940s. Enjoy 160.72.81.86 (talk) 16:03, 24 January 2024 (UTC)GCL

Good article reassessment for Parsifal
Parsifal has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 03:57, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Featured pictures about opera
So, um... I might have forgotten to update the images at the top of the page for... two years. I put all the ones I missed in now. Made the list a bit long, but...

None of them are over on the Portal either. Heavy lean towards comic opera (Gilbert and/or Sullivan especially), but there's Parisian set designer Philippe Chaperon and Claude Debussy as well. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.8% of all FPs. 10:08, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Talk:The Red Moon (Johnson and Cole)
Hi all. I would appreciate some input at this discussion. was wanting to describe the work as a musical comedy, but I am advocating for the more generic term "stage work" based on discrepancies among published literature. Per WP:NPOV, I have now documented a neutral presentation of the discrepancy in the article itself in The Red Moon (Johnson and Cole). I tried to be as balanced and neutral on this issue as possible and provide an overview across a wide range of sources. All opinions are welcome. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Menotti an American composer?
There is a discussion at Talk:Gian Carlo Menotti whether Menotti should also be categorized as an American composer. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Happy Birthday, Rossini


He only gets to celebrate his real birthday every four years. So…

Cin Cin, Gioachino! Voceditenore (talk) 10:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * thank you, Voce, here's my toast:

 Gioachino Rossini (born 29 February 1792) scored the last of his "sins of old age", the ''Petite messe solennelle, for twelve singers, two pianos, and harmonium. listen When Heather Phillips made her European debut in Rossini's Bianca e Falliero, her nuanced coloraturas served to portray Bianca's development. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

List of works in the infobox
In case of interest please take look at discussion Talk:Antonio Vivaldi. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:54, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Lamara Chkonia
Lamara Chkonia died, - can we expand and reference? Sources are mostly in Russian or as "unreliable" as YouTube. She has an entry in GSL (p. 2566) but I can't see it. Her daughter has an entry on Operissimo. - On vacation, so of little help today. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Category:Klingon-language operas has been nominated for discussion
Category:Klingon-language operas has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:58, 1 April 2024 (UTC)