Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy/Archive 22

Update to peer review page
Hi all, I've boldly updated your project's peer review page (WikiProject Philosophy/Peer review) by updating the instructions and archiving old reviews.

The new instructions use Wikipedia's general peer review process (WP:PR) to list peer reviews. Your project's reviews are still able to be listed on your local page too.

The benefits of this change is that review requests will get seen by a wider audience and are likely to be attended to in a more timely way (many WikiProject peer reviews remain unanswered after years). The Wikipedia peer review process is also more maintained than most WikiProjects, and this may help save time for your active members.

I've done this boldly as it seems your peer review page is pretty inactive and I am working through around 90 such similar peer review pages. Please feel free to discuss below - please ping me in your response.

Cheers and hope you are well, Tom (LT) (talk) 00:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

RfC about stubbing an article
I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 03:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Hellenistic philosophy
There is a serious impasse over a scope of changes at Talk:Hellenistic philosophy. Please consider helping by offering input to the discussion, especially with regards to new proposed changes. Keepcalmandchill (talk) 04:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Links to DAB pages
I've collected a handful of articles with philosophy-related links to DAB pages where expert attention would be welcome. There were several times more, but when I came to check my bookmarks, most had been cleared. Search for "disam" in read mode and for "{{d" in edit mode; and if you solve any of these puzzles, remove the {{tl|disambiguation needed}} tag and post {{tl|done}} here. Thanks in advance, Narky Blert (talk) 17:47, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Aufheben
 * Béatrice Galinon-Mélénec
 * Index of philosophy articles (I–Q)
 * Robert Audi
 * Subjective idealism
 * Fixed. Thank you. --Omnipaedista (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
 * No, thank you. One of the DABfixer's skills is knowing what you don't know (that may not be an original thought). Narky Blert (talk) 19:50, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Invitation to review new articles
I have recently completely rewritten a number of articles, including:


 * As above, so below
 * Hermetica
 * Microcosm-macrocosm analogy
 * The Kybalion

Two of these (Hermetica and Microcosm-macrocosm analogy) are officially part of this WikiProject, although I think that the other two probably also deserve to be included (which may only have become apparent after my rewrite).

In any case, I would like to invite you all to review the new articles. Any input is welcome!

Apaugasma (talk&#124;contribs) 17:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Leap of faith
I'd appreciate some additional opinions at Talk:Leap of faith. The article is currently suffering from 1) far too many quotes, 2) too much focus on Kierkegaard, and 3) reading like a general advertisement for Christianity.&#32;-- Fyrael (talk) 15:53, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This is the last neutral version of the article (15 January 2012). Then an editor focused on Kierkegaard started adding Kierkegaard quotes and has kept doing so since then. What would be the best way to deal with this type of problematic editing? This is not clear to me yet. --Omnipaedista (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have gone through similar conflicts in nearly every article I have worked on here - I mainly write on religion and philosophy - and people are often quite passionately committed to their views. Someone has to care enough about our beloved encyclopedia to commit to fighting it through. If only one person is the problem, begin by talking directly to them about their problematic editing. If they argue, which they will at first, post a third party opinion request or an RFC. I like RFCs because you get more than one person's input. Frame the problem and the question carefully. Once you have consensus, offer, again, to work the problem through together. Cooperation really is what sets WP apart and produces our best quality work. Discuss an outline of what needs changing. Get their input if you can. Then Be Bold. Make the changes you see the need for. If they revert them, start over on the Talkpage with another RFC. If that doesn't work again, there is always mediation, but by that time I can't imagine they would have a leg to stand on. Any mediation will go your way at that point. I just completely rewrote Christian ethics where I originally had an editor who reverted every change I attempted. Persevere, with patience and kindness and npa. It has often taken me more time to gain cooperation than it eventually took to redo the article itself, but it has always been time well spent. I wish you the very best of luck with this! Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the preceptive comments! For the record, I tried to revert some of this editor's edits back in 2014. They did not restore the content I removed but they did continue to add new problematic content all over Wikipedia. I then tried to talk to them (albeit rather briskly) but they never replied . --Omnipaedista (talk) 11:05, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks for relating your experiences, although I'd like to clarify that there isn't any kind of war happening at this point and I'd like to not jump into that frame of mind. I regret titling my talk section over there somewhat combatively, but so far it just seems like an editor who only thinks of "leap of faith" from one specific angle and tried to write a detailed article about that. We don't know for sure how they'll react if and when I drum up the energy to start trimming the article.&#32;-- Fyrael (talk) 15:20, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This editor does not seem to engage in dialogue. This is somewhat combative per se. Thank you for raising this long-standing issue here. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Omnipaedista I agree, not responding is a response. But it could be they are just out of town - repeatedly. :-) Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:40, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

How do I join?
I would like to be a member of this group. How do I join? Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Go to the project page and click on "join the project". --Bduke (talk) 05:45, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There is some information on the main project page under the heading "Getting started" and on the participants page. I think the main points are:
 * Add yourself to the Participants Roster
 * Add "User WP Philosophy"-template to your user page. It will automatically add you to the category "WikiProject Philosophy members".
 * Join one or more task forces and repeat the preceding steps for each. Phlsph7 (talk) 05:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Phlsph7 and Bduke So now I feel stupid to have missed that somehow. What can I say, it was late, there was this bottle of wine... Thank you for your help!Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:51, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Emil Carl Wilm
My sense from researching this new article is that its subject was a resounding mediocrity. But he held something called the Borden P. Bowne Chair at Boston University, so evidently someone thought he was chair-worthy. Can anyone find anything to indicate any substantial scholarly contributions? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 06:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Crusading
When tagging up an RFC for this article for Religion and Philosophy it struck me that the artical had a strong philosophical element, particularly medieval.

Any objections to me adding the Philosophy template to it? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 15:32, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Alleged death of Edmund Gettier
Hey, can someone please take a look at this: Talk:Edmund_Gettier 72.209.38.247 (talk) 14:28, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Philosophy of color
The article Philosophy of color allegedly has serious WP:NPOV problems, giving undue weight to color realist theories. (I personally disagree as a physicist, since color can be described in terms of a spectrum of wavelengths.) The article also has an essay-like tone. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Philosophy/Ancient articles needing expert attention has been nominated for discussion
Category:Philosophy/Ancient articles needing expert attention has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Peaceray (talk) 04:48, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Philosophy/Language articles needing expert attention has been nominated for discussion
Category:Philosophy/Language articles needing expert attention has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Peaceray (talk) 04:53, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Philosophy/Philosophers articles needing expert attention has been nominated for discussion
Category:Philosophy/Philosophers articles needing expert attention has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Peaceray (talk) 04:58, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Philosophy/Social and political philosophy articles needing expert attention has been nominated for discussion
Category:Philosophy/Social and political philosophy articles needing expert attention has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Peaceray (talk) 05:02, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Metaepistemology is a stub.
Metaepistemology is a stub. Can anybody do anything with it?

thx - 2804:14D:5C59:8833:AD30:845A:ED8B:8163 (talk) 21:29, 18 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I added a little bit of content. It's still probably in stub territory but at least it has some good sources to draw from now for continued development. Alduin2000 (talk) 13:56, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Create The Man ?
It lacks a posthumous treatise of Descartes, L'Homme, sometimes named Traité de l'homme. Maybe we can merge the subject with The Description of the Human Body, which is a more litte treatise published together in 1664. I recently started writing the page in French. Zythème (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If I understand it correctly, "Treatise of Man" & "The Description of the Human Body" are 2 different unfinished texts that were published together in a later edition. If that's the case then it should be fine to have a separate article for each, especially since we already have one for "The Description of the Human Body". After a quick look, the French article seems fine to me. You could simply translate it to English. Check the title, I think "Treatise of Man" is used in English, see for example here. Phlsph7 (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Request for Comment Robert Lanza
There is a Request for Comment about Robert Lanza that may be of interest to members of the WikiProject: Bibliographies/Science task force. Talk:Robert Lanza. I would encourage members of this project to consider participating to add diversity to the discussion. Sapphire41359 (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Either/Or
This article has been reassessed for GA qualification by me and found wanting. Comments invited.--Smerus (talk) 17:42, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Most viewed stub in this Wikiproject
Motte-and-bailey fallacy	33,612	1,120	Stub--Coin945 (talk) 15:07, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not a stub. It is at least Start class, but the assessment had not been updated. --RL0919 (talk) 15:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Some other highly-visited pages in a poor state are: --Coin945 (talk) 18:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Missing dollar riddle	22,891	763	Stub
 * Empirical evidence	86,208	2,873	Start
 * Thanks for bringing up the issue. I've expanded the article "Empirical evidence" in various ways recently, which I hope constitutes a few steps towards resolving this issue. Phlsph7 (talk) 06:51, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The 10 most-viewed, worst-quality articles according to this Wikiproject

 * 218 (rank)	Human–animal marriage	64,370 (total)	2,076 (daily)	Stub (class)	Unknown (importance)
 * 548	Susan Alice Buffett	34,012	1,097	Stub	Mid
 * 947	Missing dollar riddle	20,152	650	Stub	Low
 * 75	Red pill and blue pill	125,618	4,052	Start	Low
 * 147	Inherently funny word	81,074	2,615	Start	Low
 * 172	World	74,557	2,405	Start	Mid
 * 216	Hippocratic Oath	65,694	2,119	Start	High
 * 227	Misanthropy	62,291	2,009	Start	Mid
 * 240	Christine Grady	60,374	1,947	Start	Low
 * 244	Homunculus	59,995	1,935	Start	Low
 * 257	Empirical evidence	57,792	1,864	Start	High
 * 261	Mandala	57,633	1,859	Start	High

WikiProject Philosophy/Popular pages--Coin945 (talk) 09:54, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Theophany article: proposed consolidation
At the Theophany talk page I have proposed consolidating current text under individual religions where the discussion is about divine incarnation and/or divine inspiration rather than theophanic events. Comments, please. --Bejnar (talk) 17:27, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Noticeboard discussion on "Neither qi nor meridians exist"
This Wikiproject may be interested in the noticeboard discussion about the statement "Neither qi nor meridians exist." in the Shiatsu article: Fringe_theories/Noticeboard. MarshallKe (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Hitchens's razor
There is a discussion happening on Hitchens's razor regarding whether it is used to claim the nonexistence of gods, and if so, who uses it this way, and whether evidentialism says that claims like this require evidence. The proposed edit has a citation. MarshallKe (talk) 14:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Question from a beginner editor in philosophy
Hello my fellow Wikipedians, I've been feeling quite confused so far in my time here on Wikipedia and an answer to this question may help clear up some of that confusion. When editing an article on a specific philosopher (Plato for example) is it okay to cite sources that they themselves created? Or is this presenting a sort of biased view? Similarly, when editing an article on a controversial topic in philosophy is it okay to cite sources that are explicitly in favor of a particular view on the topic? Is citing these things okay so long as I present the views neutrally or should I refrain from using these kinds of sources all together? This may seem like a dumb question but I am genuinely struggling to figure out what exact sources are permissible for me to use when editing philosophy articles in Wikipedia. Any insights on these questions I would greatly value, thank you! Braelynn2000 (talk) 17:28, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As a general rule, WP:primary would say no. However (a) it is unlikely to be self-promotion! (b) the author is notable in his own right. So provided you make it clear that "Plato said ..." (rather than just state it in WP: Wikivoice, citing him as the WP:RS, then it is ok. If it were a modern philosopher, I'd be more cautious. Of course you will know to avoid your own WP:OR interpretation. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Braelynn2000, JM Friedman's comment above indeed refers to the relevant policy, which encourages use of secondary sources mostly, rather than sources that the subject/philosopher created. The reason for that is that primary sources are often open to multiple different interpretations, and even if they're relatively straightforward, determining which parts should be emphasized or de-emphasized is often best left to experts (scholars). You can cite primary sources, and many WP articles do, but they should be used "with care," according to the policy. To your second question, it's fine to cite reputable/expert sources explicitly in favor of a certain in favor of a particular view.  Note: if what the source says is broadly accepted by most experts, then it can simply be stated and cited. If the view contradicts the prevailing view or comes from a reliable-but-potentially-partisan source, it should be attributed in the text of the article itself ("according to ..."). Figuring out the integration of certain views and how they should be worded on a sentence level is a constant process on many talkpages, so don't be discouraged if someone changes, challenges, or reverts your intial wording. There's usually a kind of evolution before a new fact or statement reaches stability within an article.--MattMauler (talk) 17:58, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * To add to the previous replies, you might find the Philosophy Manual of Style useful here too. It says "Presenting material from the original work is fine, provided passages are short, are given the proper context, and do not constitute the main portion of the article. If such passages stray into the realm of interpretation, secondary sources must be provided to avoid original research." Hope that helps. Alduin2000 (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Charles W. Mills
(Cross-posted from WP:BLPN). I and disagree about the appropriate nationality to use (per WP:CONTEXTBIO) in the lede of Charles W. Mills, a biography of a recently deceased philosopher. Any input is appreciated. Perhaps the best option is simply to omit nationality entirely as sources including this NYT obituary studiously avoid describing him as American, Jamaican, or Caribbean. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:04, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Call for rewrite of Private language argument
Thanks go to for having created and developed Private language argument in 2006, but imho it's time to revisit it to bring it up to current standards. Please join the discussion at Talk:Private language argument. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:50, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Jim Dratwa
I am working on a review of Jim Dratwa, and struggle to find secondary sources that discuss the work of the subject. I would appreciate suggestions for improved sourcing or any other feedback. Thanks, Vexations (talk) 18:51, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Philosophical theology into Philosophy of religion, 16 October
The article about "Philosophical theology" presents an intellectual argument put forward seemingly largely by one individual Mortimer J. Adler, about the nature of the philosophy of religion - attempting to draw a distinction between what he calls "philosophical theology" by religious outsiders, such as Aristotle, and Natural theology, by insiders. Its most appropriate place would likely be as a much-contracted entry in the philosophy of religion article (and possibly as a mentioned criticism on the Natural theology page. As it stands, having an article entitled Philosophical theology provides significant scope for confusion with the Philosophy of religion and Religious philosophy pages to the extent that casual readers could readily be confused. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:08, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

RM: The Enneads → Enneads
An editor has requested for The Enneads to be moved to Enneads. Since you had some involvement with The Enneads, you might want to participate in the move discussion (if you have not already done so). Havelock Jones (talk) 10:16, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Theory of forms
I removed a citation from Theory of forms because the "book" it pointed to was a mishmash of quotes from Wikipedia itself, put out by a dodgy publisher. The text in the "Forms" section is not particularly clear; input from someone who's had to teach the topic recently would be helpful. A later section in the same article has been tagged for possible WP:NOR violation since 2016. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 21:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Notification
Galileo Galilei has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:52, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gandanta
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gandanta. Venkat TL (talk) 14:00, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

New proposal for WikiProject Effective altruism
Hey everyone, I've created a WikiProject proposal to support efforts to improve articles related to effective altruism, a social movement about doing good effectively and with strong roots in philosophy academia (especially Peter Singer). If you're interested, please write a comment supporting the WikiProject proposal here. Enervation (talk) 14:58, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Following strong support, the WikiProject has now been created and you can check it out here: WikiProject Effective Altruism. —Enervation (talk) 05:30, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Philosophy Talk
This WikiProject looks inactive but I thought I'd alert you that I saw this article on the PROD list. I guess it's really pop culture but I thought there might be some interest in maintaining the article. Liz Read! Talk! 02:15, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion to unprotect Guy Standing (economist)
–– FormalDude  talk 03:30, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Stroma (philosophie)
Could I request an editor more familiar with philosophy take a look at this new article: Stroma (philosophie). It came across my list when reviewing new pages. I'm having trouble confirming the subject, and it is possible there may be a language issue. The creator the article also |added the subject to Stroma. Thanks in advance. Singularity42 (talk) 22:29, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Science theory expert needed: Category:Scientific laws vs Category:Empirical laws
In my opinion, all subcategories of Category:Scientific laws are in fact about empirical laws, and should be moved to Category:Empirical laws &mdash; except for Category:Statistical laws, which should be split between Category:Mathematical theorems and Category:Empirical statistical laws (to be created around the article Empirical statistical laws).

After that, Category:Scientific laws could be deleted, since it can have at most two subcategories, viz. Category:Empirical laws (for what Kant called "a posteriori") and Category:Mathematical theorems (for what Kant called "a priori"). What are the opions about this suggestion?

We have a similar discussion at commons:Commons:Categories for discussion/2021/04/Category:Scientific laws, and want to apply the solution found here to Commons, too. - Jochen Burghardt (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Empirical laws and scientific laws seem roughly synonymous to me (this is also backed up by the fact that empirical law currently redirects to scientific law) so I agree pages/subcategories in Category:Empirical laws should be moved to Category:Scientific laws or vice versa. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for this discussion to be handled via CfD here too though. Alduin2000 (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I started a CfD at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_December_31. - Jochen Burghardt (talk) 12:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Deaths of philosophers
This meets WP:LISTN right? I've added a few refs and was thinking I'd made it a long-term project but I'm not totally convinced it's an appropriate list. The books listed in Deaths of philosophers seem to indicate that the concept "deaths of philosophers" is itself notable, but it would seem odd if this list included totally normal deaths of people like G. E. Moore who are definitely philosophers but died in non-notable ways. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Philosophical Investigations
I've recommended serious surgery at Philosophical Investigations, possibly even consideration of WP:TNT. Your feedback would be appreciated at this discussion. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 04:46, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Fallacy articles
I'm posting this here because some of the main fallacy articles are marked as mid or high importance for this project. I've also posted on the Skepticism Project page for the same reason. (The Logic Project talk page seems pretty inactive, as do the individual article talk pages.) I did a quick check of the archives but couldn't find a mention of this issue. I'm a newbie so if there's a better place for this do let me know.

I've been skim-reading a few of the fallacy articles recently (Formal fallacy, List of fallacies, and some specific fallacy articles linked there). I've by no means looked at all the individual pages, as there are a lot, but I'm getting the impression quite a few need significant work.


 * Some articles are flagged as needing additional citations or being unclear or confusing (wholeheartedly agree!), and some seem like they should be (e.g. this one seems like more things should have references).
 * Some of the flags are years old: this has a whole-article flag from 2016, the Formal fallacy page has a citation flag from 2010, and this one has a whole-article flag from 2007.
 * Several seem to assume a lot of knowledge on the part of the reader, be rather densely written, or use specialist terms, mathematical equations etc. without explaining them (e.g. I couldn't properly decipher the "simple example" image in the Prosecutor's fallacy article). While some topics may be inherently hard to simplify, or inherently require some specialist knowledge, I do get the feeling that many of these articles could at least start out with simpler language and examples.
 * Potential inconsistency, e.g. in List of fallacies - it's just a list so there's no requirement for examples or much elaboration, but some items do have examples while others don't. I personally would find a small example for each item a really useful thing to have in an overview because some of the descriptions aren't beginner-friendly, but either way might it be better if it were consistent? Or at least have them for the descriptions that aren't in plain English!

I could probably comment on more stuff but I'll leave it there. I know many of these articles may not be of specific interest to this project, but as fallacies on the whole seem to be I thought I'd leave a "cover-all" comment here. And just for context, I have a degree in maths (although it's been a while), so I'm familiar with certain types of fallacies and general maths notation. But also am not confident enough to make any edits myself. RapturousRatling (talk) 22:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Generally you should choose one location to start a discussion, and then provide a link to the discussion at the other relevant locations (rather than copying the discussion at multiple venues). I've gone ahead and replaced your entry at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skepticism with a link to this discussion and a brief comment that it may interest members of that WikiProject. I put the same notification at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Logic.
 * These are all good criticisms, and certainly something for editors to work on. I'll take a look to see where I can help out. –– FormalDude  talk  23:22, 24 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Ok thanks for the info, that’s useful to know. I did actually consider just linking and then thought cross-linking to other projects might be bad form! (Like people might want to see everything relevant to a project all on their own project page.) In hindsight what you said makes more sense though :D RapturousRatling (talk) 01:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Happy to help. It's done that way so that multiple conversations that editors have to jump back and forth between don't occur (we want to keep all responses and comments on one page). –– FormalDude  talk  11:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Large number of empty and stub sections in Philosophy of education article
The article on Philosophy of education is rated as Start-class, high-importance by the Philosophy WikiProject and the Philosophy Education. However, the only content in many of the sections in the article comprise of simply a template stating that the section needs expansion, such as Philosophy of education, Philosophy of education, Philosophy of education, Philosophy of education, Philosophy of education, Philosophy of education, and Philosophy of education. Many other sections, while not having the template, comprise of only one or two sentences, many times unsourced, such as Philosophy of education, Philosophy of education, Philosophy of education, and Philosophy of education. Is there somebody familiar with these subjects and figures that could help expand these sections in Philosophy of education, or otherwise delete them if they aren't notable enough to expand the section further than what it currently is? Paula Bradley (talk) 08:44, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing this out, I went ahead and removed the empty subsections. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:50, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Quine–Putnam indispensability argument GAN?
Recently I created and have been working on the article Quine–Putnam indispensability argument. I was wondering if anyone here who is more experienced with GA nominations/reviews think that it is worth nominating for GA status at this point, or is it still quite far away from that? Thanks for any help/feedback! Alduin2000 (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Improving the actual idealism article
I believe the article Actual idealism needs a lot of improvement to adequately express the idea. Can we add to it? I'm unfamiliar with the idea myself so I will not be able to do it on my own. MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 19:53, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Sociocracy § Problematic edits & resolving a possible conflict of interest
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Sociocracy § Problematic edits & resolving a possible conflict of interest. Peaceray (talk) 19:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Political philosophy: State of Exception
Could anyone help with the State of exception article? It is short and has little context for a controversial idea. Another editor and I discussed my issues with the page at User_talk:15

If someone who understands more about the idea and the situation could add some nuance, I would be grateful. CohenTheBohemian (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like and turns it into something like
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from cite web, cite journal and doi.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

FAR notice
I have nominated Maximus the Confessor for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:37, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Quantum mind updates
Hello. I have made brief updates to Quantum mind as well as to Orchestrated objective reduction as there has been new evidence recently published, not just on Orch OR but from other quantum experiments involving radical pairs. The 'QM' article seems to read well but is out of date, particularly under 'criticism', because of the new evidence. There are lengthy passages that are uncited and appear to be opinion. If any editors are across this subject it'd be great to work on the article. My message on the talk page has no response (there's a link to Nature on the radical pairs experiment there). I'll make further edits in the near future. Thanks. Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Jean Largeault obituary
Hello, can someone help find an obituary for French philosopher Jean Largeault? Thank you, Thriley (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * There is this from the Revue Philosophique de la France et de l'Étranger if you can access it . Alduin2000 (talk) 02:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. Thriley (talk) 03:33, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Improving "Consensus decision-making"
Hello WikiProject Philosophy people. I have been gradually trying to improve Consensus decision-making for over a year now. Yesterday I added a section on Consensus decision-making. However, I've mostly been alone in my editing. Not only would it be more fun to edit with others, I grow slowly uncomfortable about having too much editorial influence (and therefore having increased risk of my work being later removed).

Consensus decision-making is currently rated C-Class, although it is a | High-importance philosophy article. Perhaps some of you are interested to get involved? DougInAMug talk 16:02, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Self-refuting idea - request for assistance
This article is a bit of a mess, really, but particularly the section on indirectly self-denying statements (which I have flagged). I just wanted to note it here in case anyone felt like tackling it. Theknightwho (talk) 19:33, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

AFD on Definitions of knowledge
So far only three editors are involved so it might be good to get some more responses to the arguments presented for and against, see Articles for deletion/Definitions of knowledge. Phlsph7 (talk) 06:18, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Request for comments at Talk:Astrology
There is a RfC about how to word the first sentences of the lead at Talk:Astrology which may be of interest to the members of this WikiProject. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 18:15, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Hilary Putnam
I have nominated Hilary Putnam for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:17, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Quine–Putnam indispensability argument peer review
I've recently listed the article Quine–Putnam indispensability argument for peer review here. Any comments would be very much appreciated. Thanks. Alduin2000 (talk) 00:22, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Alan Chalmers is the father of David Chalmers?
An editor recently added this information to the Alan Chalmers article. Is it true? I did a quick Google and could not easily find anything. Thriley (talk) 23:40, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
 * don't think so. According to the Scientific American, David Chalmers has said "My father is a medical researcher, a pretty successful scientist and administrator in medicine in Australia" which doesn't seem to fit David Chalmers. I've seen some other sites say his father is John Philip Chalmers which would fit that description more but I also can't find a reliable source for that either. Alduin2000 (talk) 11:11, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Move Request Society of Jesus to Jesuits
An editor has requested for Society of Jesus to be moved to Jesuit. Since you had some involvement with Society of Jesus, you might want to participate in the move discussion (if you have not already done so). –Zfish118⋉talk 23:30, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Jews of Color
Please contribute to this new article draft on Jews of Color.--Coin945 (talk) 20:08, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

True Torah Jews
Please review and copyedit this article so we can get it out of draft and into the mainspace. Coin945 (talk) 15:12, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Integral Judaism
Please can you have a look at this stub and help improve it?--Coin945 (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Society for the Right to Die and Concern for Dying
Hello all,

I recently created articles on the US organisations Society for the Right to Die and Concern for Dying, which may of interest to members of this WikiProject.

Any additional eyes on these articles would be greatly appreciated, as I am not an expert in the topic matters at hand - these groups just seemed notable to me. QueenofBithynia (talk) 21:49, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:De Coelesti Hierarchia
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:De Coelesti Hierarchia that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 16:22, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Adam Becker
There is a current request from Adam Becker for subject matter experts from the Philosophy of Science Task Force to review the criticism of his book to gauge whether it is balanced for a BLP. This was posted at BLPN but is detailed at his article talkpage. Morbidthoughts (talk) 01:12, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

The Problem of Pain (CS Lewis book) needs attention
The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis is a well-known and well-liked work of pop theology.

Our article is categorized as "of interest to WikiProject Philosophy / Literature", among other WikiProjects.

The article has been suffering from a bad case of


 * This article is written like a personal reflection, personal essay, or argumentative essay that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings or presents an original argument about a topic. Please help improve it by rewriting it in an encyclopedic style.

and


 * This article possibly contains original research. Nearly all of it is an extended summary of the book, without citing any secondary reliable sources. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations.

for over a year now.

The revision in question did add some useful content (the article previously was basically a stub) so I hesitate to just revert it wholesale.

Can anyone help beat this article into shape?

- 2804:14D:5C59:8693:F802:1D23:B35D:B603 (talk) 03:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Articles by user:Phlsph7
Hi, User:Phlsph7 has recently done some extraordinary work in compiling and writing some very dense new articles with an extensive apparatus of sources. But some are a bit inaccessible, a problem severely worsened since he has begun porting them to the German WP with sometimes quite too literal translations (e.g. Humeanism and Humeanismus) Could you please advise him how to handle those more delicately about that matter? He seems very competent and prolific, and would be greatly helped if he was acknowledged and supported (maybe even beta-read form time to time)- Kind regards Leif Czerny (talk) 06:58, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hello and thanks for the positive feedback. I'm always open to suggestions. But I guess the question of which articles from the English Wikipedia are acceptable at the German Wikipedia and how to translate them is probabily better discussed there and not here. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:59, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Both the what and the how of the translation make me uneasy. I'd fell much relived if the untranslated articles were peer-reviewed here before translation. That also applies to Definitions of philosophy, the German Version of which had to be deleted. It is always problematic if someone has to work wholly alone and without feedback. This is me asking for help. Kind regards Leif Czerny (talk) 10:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You can suggest specific articles for peer review at Peer review. Keep in mind that this is a time-intensive process. But, as I mentioned before, here is not the right place for discussing your opinion on the quality of translations to the German Wikipedia. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:07, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've just looked through the page Humeanism and, personally, I don't find it to be inaccessible at all. Actually, I think it is very accessible, far more complex articles about Hume's thought could be written. I've made some wording and other trivial changes but that's basically it, I wouldn't know how to significantly simplify things further. On the other hand, this might be because I do already have some prior knowledge of Hume and philosophy more generally, are there any parts you thought were particularly inaccessible ? It's probably best to answer on that page's talk page rather than continue here though as that would be a conversation about improving that specific article. Alduin2000 (talk) 14:49, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I second this - I find neither Humeanism or Definitions of philosophy to be particularly difficult to understand or inaccessible. I'd compare them favorably to the Stanford Encyclopedia in terms of comprehensibility, even. Philosophy is a fairly dense subject even when explained very well, and there are admittedly further challenges associated with translating it well. But there doesn't seem to be any issue with the content on enwiki at all. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 17:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * your support for phlsph is very reaffirming. Please understand that it is kind of alarming if such articles have only one main author, and he translates them one to one. The overview given seems to be very contemporary, which is impressive, but a disservice when attempting one-to-one translations, as the relevance of as well as the perspective on things differ between continental and Anglo-Saxon academia. Be aware that the philosophy department of de-wp is seriously understaffed - there's no one to account for the differences in the evaluation of current topics, or the different style in article writing at all. But articles that take no note auf Germen-speaking acadmica just miss the purpose for de-Wp. we need someone who gets those problems and can advise. Kind regards Leif Czerny (talk) 07:12, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to review these articles to and to  for the various improvements. I also appreciate  for helping out with the understaffed German WikiProjekt Philosophie. As for the remaining discussion on whether one-to-one translations are acceptable at the German Wikipedia, let's move it there. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:18, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Please refrain for further translations in the meantime. I'm sorry, but your approach seems to be severely misguided. Just because a topic hasn't got a de-wiki article doesn't mean that there isn't tons of literature or even canonical editions and translations with well-established terminology and systematic distinctions, which shouldn't be disregarded. The de-discussion continues here. If anyone would like to chip in on the subject of translation or even evaluating the original articles, that would be very much appreciated. Kind regards Leif Czerny (talk) 09:09, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm very sorry, but since we've started looking into this matter the concerns have only been confirmed more and more. Please reevaluate the work they have done here as well, I'd like to request all review for any articles to which the user made significant contribution, but I don't have the resources to oversee or even initiate such an endeavor. The German discussion consolidating here de:Wikipedia_Diskussion:WikiProjekt_Philosophie (unfortunately, in German, but the length should be an indication that this has become a serious issue).Leif Czerny (talk) 20:30, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It looks like there may be some translation issues with terminology here, but I'm not seeing any evidence of what is being claimed here. I've already (briefly) reviewed almost all of the articles that has written as part of a broader re-review of all of our philosophy articles that I've been working on this past month. While I have not personally verified all of their citations in the referenced sources, nearly every statement they make on their articles is supported by at least one secondary source citation and none of them seem to arrive at any patently original conclusions or any other content issues that would warrant this kind of accusation. I'd like to remind you to be careful not to cast WP:ASPERSIONS - if you have specific objections to any of the content on English wikipedia I'd invite you to bring that up on the talk page for any relevant articles, but please refrain from making broad statements about an editor's conduct or behavior without specific evidence. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Just have a glimpse at the German discussion. I'm very impressed that you managed to (briefly) reviewed almost all the articles, I sure can't find the time. for that. I'm not even sure we'll be able to mitigate the damages done to de-WP via translations, wikidata-connetctions, replacements etc. Citing a source might be a necessary condition of a sufficient condition for quality or correctness, but it isn't sufficient in itself. Multiple sources might not represent a sufficient diversity of viewpoints. Definitions_of_philosophy was just what caught my eye initially. 'Some might guess that it largely relies on Overgaard, Søren; Gilbert, Paul; Burwood, Stephen (2013). "What is philosophy?". An Introduction to Metaphilosophy. Cambridge University Press. pp. 17–44. ISBN 978-0-521-19341-2., a 27-page essay, which is cited over 50 times, with some references from dictionaries and Handbooks in between. But if you look at team, those are used to justify broad claims as "the meaning of the term "philosophy" has changed a lot in history". Of course this is supported by teh sandkühler-entry, as it gives a historical overview of that.Leif Czerny (talk)  — Preceding undated comment added 09:52, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand what your objection to this source is: The source you mention here is not an essay, this is a review article from a subject-specific encyclopedia on definitions of philosophy put out by Cambridge University Press. I would typically expect this to be the kind of resource someone would cite for a claim like "the meaning of the term "philosophy" has changed a lot in history" as it's certainly not a conclusion that one should arrive at on their own. But I really can't think of a better source someone would cite than a review article written by a WP:CHOPSY academic press, as this does seem like the very definition of a high-quality WP:RS that summarizes the current state of research within the field. Do you disagree with this claim, that the meaning of philosophy has changed over its history? Do you think that there are additional perspectives that need to be cited, that the editors of An Introduction to Metaphilosophy have suppressed or simply forgotten to include in their review article? Do you expect other review articles put out by academic presses to come to additional or different conclusions that would change the interpretation of this review article? I'm still not seeing what exactly the issue here is. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 15:43, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We already had a discussion on this point at dewiki for the German version. It was not particularly successful. As car chasm has already pointed out, the source is good. It might help if you could cite which Wikipedia guideline is violated in your eyes since it is not obvious what problem you see. Phlsph7 (talk) 05:18, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok. If possible, I'd like some more opinions. Strong reliance on a single source is always problematic. Surely you share WP:NPOV. I'm still not here to discuss this, but to ask you to check the aricles adherence to your guidelines. And yes, O think that The introductoon to Metaphilosophy is focussed on a current discussion between specific scholars. At least their systematic and metaphilosophical apporach is not universally accepted. That is not a slight against them, but that makes it impossible to persent this approach as all-emcompassing. Ther could -e.g be an apporach that focusses on history of philsophy and schools of thought. One that focussed on sociological aspects of definitions of philosophy. There could be an intercultural comparison. And so on.Leif Czerny (talk) 09:55, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If you have reliable sources that support your assertions, you can always add that material yourself or bring up those specific concerns on the talk page. "This article doesn't include such-and-such perspective" is unlikely to go anywhere, but "this article doesn't include such and such perspective from these sources" very well might, especially if those sources are high-quality and can provide context on other philosophical traditions that are not usually given much academic analysis. However, and I apologize if this seems overly frank, it's starting to sound like you might be objecting more to the way overall that philosophy is conducted in English or in "the West" in general rather than anything to do with a specific editor or their contributions? Maybe give WP:CHOPSY and the rest of WP:ABIAS another read - if you believe that the Cambridge Introductions to Philosophy series is presenting a biased, WP:NPOV-violating point of view, you may want to consider whether or not you need to seek broader acceptance from the academic community for your ideas before they can be included on Wikipedia.
 * As for myself, I don't intend to go over what are some of what appear to be our best-researched and well-cited articles in the entire WikiProject with a fine-toothed comb. I can't speak for anyone else, but there are certainly far more pressing articles to improve for anyone with the bandwidth to do so. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 15:38, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

you did mark Defnitions of Knwoledge for deletion. Could you explain why and why it was kept anyway?Leif Czerny (talk) 11:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you're pinging me...3 months after the fact, but I'm quite sure you're more than capable of reading the AFD discussion yourself. PICKLEDICAE🥒 12:18, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Charming.Leif Czerny (talk) 06:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC) ::Sorry, I ment Defintions of Philosophy. I'm a bit overwhelmed by the chaos this has caused, dan frankly, suprised of the lack of consideration. Cheers, Leif Czerny (talk) 19:13, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Just leaving a reply to comment on other issues that have been raised about the articles as I only commented previously on their readability. Reading through the discussion on de.wiki, it appears there have also been concerns raised surrounding possible copyright violation? I'm not sure how thoroughly I can currently review all of Phlsph7's edits but I have put some articles through Earwig's copyvio detector, including axiology, The Right and the Good, Humeanism, Definitions of knowledge and Definitions of philosophy. Most show copyright violation to be unlikely, although I haven't conducted any spot checks so cannot verify this completely. The two exceptions are The Right and the Good and Definitions of knowledge. The Right and the Good article set off the detector due to a website which copied content from the en.wiki page on deontology. It appears (?) that copied some content that they added at The Right and the Good to the deontology page. Even though you did originally write this Phlsph7, it is maybe still best that Copied templates are added on the talk pages of each page so that content is properly attributed. However, I don't think this is really a case of copyright violation as it is simply Phlsph7 copying content they wrote from one article to another. The Definitions of knowledge article on a brief glance seems to set off the detector mostly from attributed quotes and some similar wordings of thought experiments, so I also don't think it constitutes copyright violation. Are there any other pages that have been raised as possible copyright violations at de.wiki Leif Czerny? I could also put them through the Earwig copyvio detector if needed, and possibly others can conduct spot checks, although I'm not sure the wikiproject is really active enough for that kind of commitment to so many large, complicated articles. As to whether the articles have problems with undue weight or being too strongly reliant on a single source, I'm agnostic as I haven't checked through all the articles, although I will say that Humeanism did look ok on a brief look through, citing a variety of sources from reliable journals, books and encyclopedias. Other comments on content issues are probably best left to individual article talk pages. Alduin2000 (talk) 18:22, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That's kind of a relief. Ther were some confusing amounts of splicing and replacing existing articles in de-wp, and over 30 lemmata are affected. it's kind of time-consuming to discuss this on each talk pade.Leif Czerny (talk) 06:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I write these articles myself. I have not had any problems with WP:COPYVIO so far. As for the articles The Right and the Good and Deontology: it's not a full copy but various sentences were used from the section The_Right_and_the_Good in the section Deontology. Thanks for mentioning the "copied"-template. I've added it to Talk:Deontology. Phlsph7 (talk) 04:25, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That would be very helpful, let for transparancy's sake alone.Leif Czerny (talk) 06:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Self-awareness
Last sentence in the lead paragraph states: "There are two broad categories of self-awareness: internal self-awareness and external self-awareness." and uses this reference:

There is no further discussion of the distinction between internal and external self-awareness in body of the article, the citation is definitely a primary source, and the terms appear to be first defined in the source and not used elsewhere.

Should this sentence be deleted? 76.14.122.5 (talk) 21:25, 18 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I think it should, I deleted it. I tagged the article for cleanup as well, it looks like the whole thing is in a pretty poor state. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 22:24, 18 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you --76.14.122.5 (talk) 01:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Philosophy categories
Hello, WikiProject,

Five philosophy categories were emptied "out of process", meaning that an editor removed all of the pages so that the categories would be tagged for CSD C1 speedy deletion rather than proposing category deletion in a CFD nomination. They are:


 * Category:Practical philosophy
 * Category:Lists related to philosophy and society
 * Category:Theoretical philosophy
 * Category:Philosophy and society and
 * Category:Philosophy by ethnicity

I don't know if other editors also believe these categories serve no purpose and should be deleted. Any way, with empty categories, they sit for 7 days in Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion just because situations like this can happen. If they are still empty next week, they will be deleted. If they no longer are empty in the coming week, then the speedy deletion tag is removed. Rather than reverting all of the page removals, I thought I'd come here first and see if there was agreement with these categories being deleted. So, fill me in on what you all think about this. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 18:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding this discussion ! As the editor who removed the categories I'm happy to explain my rational and address any concerns about why I did so (although I'll be sure to follow the correct process next time and I apologize for any inconvenience!).
 * For Category:Practical philosophy and Category:Theoretical philosophy the two categories only contained two subcategories each: "Category:Ethics and Category:Aesthetics" for practical philosophy and "Category:Logic and Category:Epistemology" for theoretical philosophy, along with the associated pages Practical philosophy and Theoretical philosophy. My rationale here was that these are metaphilosophical categorizations that aren't universal, and that at any rate a category with two subcategories and a single page was not very helpful. I moved Practical philosophy and Theoretical philosophy to Category:Metaphilosophy
 * For Category:Philosophy by ethnicity, the category was almost exactly duplicated by the contents of Category:Philosophy by culture, with the exception of Category:Bengali philosophy, which I moved over to that category.
 * For Category:Philosophy and society, the category seemed quite fuzzy, and it had attracted a random assortment of categories and subcategories, including ones that I usually see as a top-level subcategory in other academic disciplines, e.g. Category:Physics. I wasn't sure what the original intention of this category was (and I'm not sure that people who added things to it did either), so I recategorized its contents based on what seemed more appropriate.
 * For Category:Lists related to philosophy and society - the category contained one member, List of philosophical organizations, which is now moved to Category:Philosophy-related lists
 * Taking this feedback about process into account, I've also nominated Category:Philosophy and culture for discussion at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_September_23 - I believe that many of the pages are creative works about philosophy that should be moved to Category:Works about philosophy and the remainder should be moved to Category:Philosophy of culture. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 22:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Saul Kripke
Saul Kripke has died. His article is not in the greatest shape. It needs more than a few citations if it is to appear under Recent Deaths. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Question about philosopher pages as against philosopher-"ism" pages
(Disclaimer: I'm new to the creator side of Wikipedia.)

In the course of editing the page on G. W. F. Hegel – educating myself as to general Wikipedia policies and GA requirements – I found myself somewhat baffled by the distinction between articles on philosophers and those on their philosophies.

Philosophers have encyclopedia entries on the basis of their thought. It is entirely appropriate that most entries begin with a section on their lives, but curiosity about their lives is not the reason that most people arrive at their Wikipedia pages.

For this reason, it seems very weird to me that many articles on high- or top-level importance philosophers would link out to "-ism"s pages as the "Main article"s on their thought.

In such cases as, for instance, Platonism, Aristotelianism, and Thomism, these secondary pages make sense. They explain the respects in which – again, just for instance – Iris Murdoch, Martha Nussbaum, and Alasdair MacIntyre are "members" of those schools.

Many such pages, however, merely restate the thought of the philosopher in question (e.g., Kantianism). A separate article with less traffic allows its editor(s) to operate with relative independence of the editorial oversight they would receive at the parent article. For this reason, they are worse than redundant.

Is there a statement of best practices or any other kind of guidelines for such secondary articles on the thought of such-and-so philosopher? If not, might it be worth drafting such a document? To be a Cartesian or Hegelian, for instance, is not the same as endorsing wholesale the philosophies of Descartes or Hegel.

It would be nice to have something even just to post to the Talk pages of articles the content of which ought to be submitted for scrutiny on a parent page with more traffic.

All thoughts and opinions most welcome —

Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I myself am not aware of the existence of such a document. If it does not currently exist on WP, I believe it would be a worthwhile exercise to try and draft such a document. Maybe it should be posted on the main page of this project? Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 19:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I've created the article Humeanism and I also worked on Aristotelianism so I'll give you my take on the content of such articles. I'm not aware of any explicit wikipedia guideline on this. The first sentences of Platonism, Aristotelianism, and Thomism:


 * Platonism is the philosophy of Plato and philosophical systems closely derived from it...
 * Aristotelianism is a philosophical tradition inspired by the work of Aristotle...
 * Thomism is the philosophical and theological school that arose as a legacy of the work and thought of Thomas Aquinas...


 * What they all have in common: they are about the philosophy of the philosopher in question and about the school of thought they inspired. They differ from the articles on the philosophers themselves in some ways: they have little or no biographical material and they focus on the reception by other philosophers: how they interpreted them and used them in their own philosophy. I think they can also include the most important teachings of the philosopher themselves. Being a Platonist or an Aristotelian does not mean that they accept everything Plato or Aristotle taught. For example, the same person may follow Aristotelian ontology but ignore or reject Aristotelian ethics.


 * But you are right: this style is not followed in all such articles. But then, of course, many of these articles are far from complete. I think in the end, what goes into an article like Kantianism is determined by reliable sources: whatever they say is Kantian. I think Kantianism should follow this style as well. This is roughly how reliable sources like and  proceed. Phlsph7 (talk) 20:50, 23 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi Phlsph7, The Aristotelianism page makes sense to me. It covers his geographically dispersed historical reception and makes notes of some contemporary thinkers and trends that are well-categorized as Aristotelian. All of this material would make the Aristotle page too long.


 * But what on the Humeanism page that would be out-of-pace on the David Hume page? It's well written and well referenced, but it is devoted to defining or describing some of Hume's central doctrines, which is the purpose of the Writings section of the main page. Wouldn't it be better to integrate the two? Competently executed, this would produce a treatment better than either of what we have now. It would also help to ensure that future editors directed their resources to a central text, rather than dividing them arbitrarily.


 * There also seems to be plenty of space in the Legacy section for additional material on his reception.


 * Does this make sense? I'm not trying to criticize your work, which looks to be quite good, just questioning your placement of it on a page that is redundant, at least in many respects, with the main page.


 * Moreover, the Humeanism page is getting about 25 hits/day, whereas the Hume page is getting about 1,650 hits/day. Whatever advantages the secondary page might have, they are not reaching readers.


 * Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 16:50, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I guess it's a question of WP:Notability: "On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article". Humeanism is mentioned a lot in the philosophical literature and there are various articles and books on it, for example,, , , , . Of course, the gist of how other philosophers interpreted Hume's ideas and used them in their own theories could also be mentioned in the article David Hume but humeanism is a big field so it wouldn't be a good idea to try to fit everything in there (like the problem of Humean supervenience, Davidson's theory of action, applications to the theory of rationality, cognitivism vs non-cognitivism, etc). And with almost 20000 words, Hume's article is already quite long as it is. So I think the argument you made for Aristotelianism applies here equally. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:19, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Phlsph7, to me the article seems quite light on Humeans compared to its exposition of Hume's own doctrines. But it's not my intention here to argue any particular case. Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 17:32, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * This could get a little into detail so it might be better to continue this discussion on the article discussion page. I guess the basic response to your question is this: [philosopher]-ism-pages usually talk about the person's philosophy and how other people interpreted them and used them in their own theories. But in the end, it depends on the reliable sources whether such an "ism" deserves its own page and what content should be discussed there. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I think Manual of Style may be what you're looking for as far as prior work or a previous document, but it doesn't look like there's much there yet. That's probably where we want to put anything we come up with, I guess. I agree though, we probably usually want those articles to be about the people who are e.g. Hegelians, Platonists, rather than just a restatement of the original philosopher's thought, with the only exceptions being when those "-isms" are used in a different sense in reliable sources. And for lower importance philosophers we probably don't need an "-ism" article at all. &#32;- car chasm (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi User:Carchasm, I agree. It could be something quite simple: "As a general principle, a philosopher's thought should be treated under an appropriately headed section on the philosopher's main page. Secondary pages devoted to an "-ism" (e.g., Aristotelianism) should merely restate (not any more than necessary) what is found in primary article. Instead, such pages should be devoted to subsequent schools of thought associated with that philosopher and to discussion of his or her legacy and critical reception that would be too long to include in the primary article."


 * "Secondary pages devoted to a specific area of a philosopher's thought are justified only if they treat that area in greater technical detail or at greater length than would be appropriate for the main article. Branching out in this way is a strength of Wikipedia's model. Child pages that merely restate the main article, however, should be reintegrated to eliminate redundancy and avoid dividing the labor of future editors."


 * Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 17:14, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Lots of philosophers are independently notable outside of their area of thought. A good example is Giovanni Gentile whose academic and political career in fascist italy is almost completely independent from actual idealism which is his main philosophical idea. Others include Immanuel Kant who first theorized the nebulary hypothesis. Immanuelle 💗 (please tag me) 03:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi Immanuelle, I agree. I suspect that this page could accommodate both his political life and philosophical thought. But maybe it is a case where dividing it up would be justified. I'm only suggesting we formulate a general principle. Of course there will be exceptions.


 * I would also note that the actual idealism gets only a tenth of the traffic as Giovanni Gentile. If I were passionate about his philosophy (about which I actually know very little and do not have a position), this would motivate me to condense, if possible, some of the discussion on the child page and integrate it into the Philosophy section of the main article.


 * Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 17:14, 26 September 2022 (UTC)


 * , you might find WP:SPLIT useful when thinking about this too. It covers when it is appropriate to split content from an article into its own page. Alduin2000 (talk) 18:46, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Expert attention
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Did you know nomination
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Rfc on Falsifiability
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