Talk:Bibliography of Prem Rawat and related organizations

Discussion
What is this for? Are we now in the bibliography business? or editing articles? In any case, have fun if doing this makes you happy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Re. "What is this for?" – Jayen suggested something in this vein at Talk:Prem Rawat/Lifestyle:"As a suggestion, if some editors consider the timeline paramount, and others consider the type of source to be of paramount interest, then we could organise the list in a multi-column format, by year, with each type of source in a separate column. This might also enable cross-comparisons of the reporting style and content in various contemporaneous source types. -- Jayen 466 00:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)"I proposed to use the "sortable table" format (see Help:Sorting), which does pretty much the same job with imho an improved usability.
 * Re. "Are we now in the bibliography business?" – Wikipedia does "Bibliography of..." articles, e.g. Bibliography of atmospheric dispersion modeling, and many others - see Special:AllPages/Bibliography_of, Category:Bibliographies. They're considered a specific type of list, see WP:LISTS
 * Re. "In any case, have fun if doing this makes you happy." – tx! --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If it is about having fun, please move this to a personal sandbox. If you want to make this a useful resource devoid of POV, please strictly list the sources without cherry picking what to quote from these sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is compiled from the references and footnotes sections of some of the articles in this category. I was surprised at how many important sources weren't included in any of those lists. This is an aid to editors researching the topic, and is also intended to make our citations more consistent with less re-typing. I stripped off all the quoted text, though I may have missed a stray quote. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 19:16, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Some of these items are already in templates, such as at Divine Light Mission. It may be easy to search-and-replace to swap the template elements for the table elements in a bulk operation. With a little more work we could mine the articles themselves for templated citations. Jossi's been very helpful in converting the refs to templates in these article in the past.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 23:43, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

In mainspace?
What is this doing in mainspace? What is the rationale for this? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I object to many aspects of this "bibliography"
 * If it is a bibliography, it should list published books and journals, as per other bibliographies. See Bibliography, and check two other persons in WP with biblios: Richard Nixon bibliography and Bibliography of Harry S. Truman.
 * I object to the selective quotes from these sources
 * Some of the "sources" listed in this "bibliography" are sources that will not pass the test of being reliable sources.
 * This article violates previous agreements to reach consensus before doing major edits
 * "His organizations" is misleading.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * We shall remove all non-book and journals material from this list. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The removal shall include primary sources such as DLM publications, court orders, and affidavits. There are literally thousands of speeches by Prem Rawat, not sure what is the point of listing them all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Re. "We shall..." - pluralis maiestatis? Please learn that Wikipedia is a community project. Anyway items can be moved to below, and then discussed, if there's a valid reason for non-inclusion.

Re. removal of primary sources. Bibliographies can - and typically do - include primary sources, no agreement on that one.

Re. quotes: I only included selected quotes where used as reference text for (another) item, or for sources in other languages, requiring translation (that is: I'd have the complete text translated preferably, but there are limitations of availability of the translation and/or copyright). The rest are official abstracts, publisher's summaries etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "We shall" is a proposal. My objections remain as per arguments provided, in particular given the obvious lack of consensus and the bypassing of previous agreements. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Re. "...is a proposal": then there's currently no consensus for your proposal. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And this "article" has consensus? You have got to be kidding. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Please show me an example of a "bibliography" constructed as this one and that includes items that are not bibliographic material. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)


 * Re "example ... constructed as this one" if you mean "sortable table" format, then (for instance) Köchel catalogue. I know of no edition of the K catalogue that is sortable along the lines of the Wikipedia sortable table format. I don't even know an edition of the K catalogue that lists both K1 and K6 numbers in the same table, etc. That's the advantage of the sortable table, things can be sorted out: if you're (for instance) not interested in Bhole Ji's Blue Aquarius record, then sort by type, and look through the range you're interested in. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * True, an album should rather be in a discography, than a bibliography. If the word mediagraphy were invented yet it would apply here. For the rest, I've seen bibliographies include all sorts of things, literally: everything that's published. For instance, also listing organisations like museums dedicated to the topic at hand etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:25, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You are not answering my question. Show me a biblio article that has been constructed as per your "anything goes" criteria. Bibilio articles are about books and journals. Please read Bibliography. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:22, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You are still not answering my question. I guess I will have to do it myself. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Your question is irrelevant. If Bibliography of Virginia Woolf (accidently only including primary sources) were the first of that kind in Wikipedia, nobody would be able to show you a previous example either. Give me a few months, and I'm sure I'll be able to turn up some things, if I accidently encounter them. No need for me to prove your point. If you have a point, prove it (without causing disruption of course), that nothing remotely like this exists or would be acceptable in Wikipedia. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And stop your impatient impertinence, I'm typing as fast as I can, and clicking to find a few examples. If you have the answers to your questions, why'd you ask them in the first place? --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have made my arguments, that you have chosen to ignore for whatever reason. You claim consensus on an article that you have discussed with no one, and you call me impertinent? I have requested from the mediator to intervene. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't ignore your arguments. I ignored your question, that is the question that I would prove your point. Please do that work yourself, if you think it necessary. Please, without disruption: I insist on that point.

Re. "Some of the "sources" listed in this "bibliography" are sources that will not pass the test of being reliable sources" – then please list the ones you deem thus, and indicate why.

Re. ""His organizations" is misleading" – explain why you think that, please. It would be best to only list items relating to Rawat or his organizations if that is what is in the name of the article: I see none, currently, that don't belong. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations >> Bibliography of Prem Rawat and related organizations would solve this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Prem Rawat is not an organization: "... and related organizations" sounds a bit awkward to me. But you're the native English speaker. I think it too broad maybe also: e.g. for DLM I'd limit this bibliographic article to the period when it was Rawat's organization (not the Shri Hans period, nor the period when Rawat had no control over it any more in India). Question of scope. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Per WP:BRD. You where WP:BOLD in putting this in mainspace, I reverted per WP:BRD. Now we can discuss. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * For clarity, I inserted the doubted entries below in the section, so that we can see what we are talking about. For instance, I see no reason to remove the Hinduism Today article from the bibliography. It is used as a reference in at least one Rawat-related article. It gives some detail about Rawat's following in the far East, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I removed all material does not belong in a bibliography, as per numerous Bibliographies in Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You still didn't prove your point: a vaguish as per numerous Bibliographies in Wikipedia simply doesn't work. It is also built on a reasoning that should be avoided per WP:ASR. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia definition: A bibliography is a list, either indicative or comprehensive, of writings sharing a common factor: this may be a topic, a language, a period, or some other theme. 
 * A great deal of material has been removed from this bibliography inappropriately. All of the works listed are writings that share a common topic. There is no justification for the deletions, which represent a considerable amount of work on the part of editors. I am going to revert the deletion. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 04:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Questions: proposed MO
So, this is the way] right? You have (a) not addressed the arguments presented, and (b) deleted numerous additions that I have made. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

To better understand the rationale for the criteria around which this bibliography has been constructed, here are some questions:


 * 1) What is the difference between this article and Prem_Rawat, Prem_Rawat?
 * 2) Given that we have had extensive discussions about specific sources, how does this article address these debates? Or is this a way to place a stake in the ground and bypass seeking consensus about sources?
 * 3) This article contains just a couple of published speeches of Prem Rawat. Should we work in listing each and every published speech?
 * 4) There are numerous newspaper and magazine articles that are not listed in this article. Should we work in listing each and every single one of them?

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

In general, see incompletelist which is included currently in the article: that implies that your questions may, at this point in time, not have a definite answer.

Anyway, when the bulk of the sources currently included in Prem_Rawat are included in Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations, I suppose at least two things will happen:
 * A main template linking to the general bibliography is inserted under the section header of Prem_Rawat;
 * We have a close look whether some of the less essential bibliographic entries in Prem_Rawat are removed there. For instance, the Aagaard article has little added value to many other entries in Prem_Rawat, but in the general bibliography it is in its place I suppose, showing how in northern Europe things are approached.

I suppose two similar steps could, around the same time, be undertaken w.r.t. Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital (organization)

Reliability of sources should be judged w.r.t. the context of this article, which might be somewhat different from the context of other articles. For instance, primary sources in scarcely available editions make a bibliography complete, but would maybe be too far-fetched for other articles. And vice versa: e.g. the Chess article is used in the DLM article as the source for someone being a Rawat student: I think it too far-fetched for the general bibliography.

Re. speeches: at least a few prominent ones should be included here. I was still thinking (for instance) about the Colorado Satsang (included in Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?). It could be less. It could be more. Depends on whether someone has compelling reasons to include such entries here, and the consensus that builds around that. The internet has a few lists of these speeches. Cagan says they are well conserved, so yes: why not? Maybe also some by Durga Ji (Marolyn Rawat), they were published at the time by Rawat's publishing houses too, and that's her public image too, more than being a secretary and/or air hostess I suppose.

Which newspaper articles (and other items) we list in mainspace can be filtered below, in, and. I propose we keep in the "raw list" what can be implemented in main namespace without reserve, the other two for sources lacking importance w.r.t. the subject (or for testing the sortable table format for those wanting to try that first), and/or somewhat obscure, respectively. The items in these two lists should only be moved to the article if a consensus develops nonetheless. Other operational methods for filtering and proposing entries are possible too I suppose, but I see no direct problems with the MO I propose here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Still a general consideration about quotes, summaries etc in footnotes: there have been some wikipedia-wide discussions about this. I'm not a too big fan (e.g. in Prem Rawat reduction of the text quoted in footnotes is highly desirable imho). At the one side I'm waiting for a wikipedia-wide consensus to develop. On the other side I think the "collapsible" format I introduced in Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations an acceptable solution, if used in a thoughtful way. The Prem Rawat article might benefit from it as a beneficial step in the right direction. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Addressing some of Jossi's points, above: I think Francis has now re-added all of the material Jossi added after his purge. This list is far more inclusive than Prem_Rawat#Footnotes and Prem_Rawat#References, which are rather spotty. It is compiled from several articles and talk pages. This bibliography has nothing to do with WP:RS. It is simply a list of bibliographic resources concerning Prem Rawat and related organizations. WP readers can make up their own minds about the entries. We should prioritze our efforts with the most significant sources added first, to the extent that's practical. Note that s feature article in a newspaper may be more significant than a passing reference in a book. In any case, let's focus on building the list rather than on deleting content. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 19:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your replies. Some comments:
 * This bibliography has nothing to do with WP:RS A reminder to Will BeBack, that lists are articles in Wikipedia and are not exempted for compliance with core policies and guidelines
 * Consensus building I see a mention of consensus building several times in the responses above, but it fails to discuss consensus building about the starting point (see original point 2 above). Please address this issue in your responses.
 * Significant What is significant and what is not? Is a factually incorrect AP wire more significant than a scholar's opinion? Not accoring to WP:RS
 * I will start adding additional sources, mainly other newspaper articles not listed as well as other published magazine and other materials on the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) What I meant is that the entries on this list do not have to qualify as reliable sources themselves. If we make representations about the entries, such as characterizing their contents, then we'd need reliable sources for that info. 2) I don't follow. Could you please restate your question? 3) I said, we should prioritize our efforts to ad the most significant sources first, "to the extent that's practical". It's not a formal thing, and if it makes no sense to you then ignore it and add (possibly) less significant items first. The main thing is to create a reasonably complete bibliography of the written materials about Prem Rawat and related organizations. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Article name

 * Original proposal: Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations >> Bibliography of Prem Rawat and related organizations
 * English-wise there is no problem with this


 * Second proposal: Bibliography of Prem Rawat and his organizations >> Bibliography of Prem Rawat
 * Simpler. Scope is explained in the article's lead

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that "Bibliography of Prem Rawat and related organizations" is a better article name. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Me too. -- Jayen 466 20:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

✅: moved. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Essay?
Some of the sources are tagged as "essays in periodicals" when these are actually papers in peer reviewed journals. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no preference. I thought "Essay" was more generic. I was thinking about the sort function of the table too, when I used the most generic name I could think of for all of them: I mean, they should come out grouped when clicking the sort icon. If "paper" is better English, fine for me. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

La Sicilia

 * Discussion of use of the La Sicilia article as a source for other article content moved to Talk:Prem Rawat

[...] For inclusion in the Bibliography article we need the original title, not the complete text (nor the original one, nor the translation). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You have the original title, the publisher, and the date of publication: DIGNITY AND PROSPERITY FOR PEACE'', La Sicilia, July 2nd, 2008. Only missing is page number, which I will submit. You asked for a translation, and I will provide as well. And finally, please do not refactor my comments. If you want to claim copyvio, you will need to remove all sources from the many subpages that we have created to present sources, and I do not think that is necessary.  ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Did La Sicilia use an English title? --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There ya go: Head: Dignità e Prosperità per la pace - Subhead: Prem Rawat al Teatro Massimo, ha lanciato un apello per la fratellanza nel mondo. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Which translates to: Dignity and Prosperity for Peace: Prem Rawat at the Massimo theater raised a call for brotherhood in the world. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Others
Additional sources that could be added:


 * Richardson, James, Theory and Research on Today's "New Religions" (1978), SA. Sociological Analysis pp. 95-122 JSTOR
 * Anthony, Dick, The Sociology of Contemporary Religious Movements (1979), Annual Review of Sociology, pp. 75-89
 * McDermott, Robert, Indian Spirituality in the West: A Bibliographical Mapping (1975), Philosophy East and West, pp. 213-239, JSTOR
 * Jacobs, Janet, Hidden Truths and Cultures of Secrecy: Reflections on Gender and Ethnicity in the Study of Religion (2000), Sociology of Religion, pp. 433-441
 * Stauffer,, Robert, Bellah's "Civil Religion" (1975), Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, pp. 390-395
 * Jacobs, Janet, Hidden Truths and Cultures of Secrecy: Reflections on Gender and Ethnicity in the Study of Religion (2000), Sociology of Religion, pp. 433-441
 * Stauffer,, Robert, Bellah's "Civil Religion" (1975), Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, pp. 390-395

The Prem Rawat Foundation
Sources related to The Prem Rawat Foundation ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I crossed out the Rotary link, as it's dead. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 05:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Table
(transcluded from main namespace article:)

Currently not retained in article namespace

 * the 1991 Gist of Sant Mat booklet: is it Rawat's (as worldcat seems to indicate)? Or confusion with Maharaj Charan Singh, see these two entries at DirectTextbook.com: ? Or are that two different publications, one with 8 pages (Rawat's) and one with 6 pages (Charan Singh's)? --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * FYI: The Worldcat entry for the book uses information from the UCSB library catalog. I contacted the reference department and they checked their copy and found that the entry was in error. The actual author is Maharaj Charan Singh, not Prem Rawat or Guru Maharaj Ji. I was told that they will fix it in their catalog, and perhaps Worldcat will someday be corrected too.   Will Beback    talk    22:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * tx! Not sure whether this should make us approach worldcat data with somewhat more suspicion, or whether this is an occasional one-off error that could happen to anyone. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They simply compile library databases, and I doubt they check the provided information. Librarians are usually sticklers for accuracy. Interestingly, UCSB listed the book as uathored by "Guru Maharaj Ji", which Worldcat presumably modernized to "Prem Rawat", so they do massage the data a bit. The confusion has carried over to Amazon, which also lists the same title with two authors. So much trouble for an eight-page pamphlet!   Will Beback    talk    10:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Raw list

 * "Newsmakers" Los Angeles Times; Mar 23, 1975; pg. 2
 * "THE NATION" Los Angeles Times Mar 25, 1975 pg. A2
 * "Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission" in The Ruston Daily Leader, April 9, 1975:
 * "Young Guru's Mother Replaces Him" Los Angeles TimesApr 12, 1975; pg. A2
 * "LEADER OWNS LUXURY CARS: Teen-Age Gurus Sect Grosses $3.78 Million" in Los Angeles Times April 10, 1976, pg. A27
 * "Round and About" The Vidette Messenger. Valparaiso, Indiana, October 25, 1973
 * ALLEN, "A LOOK BACK AT THE '70S" HENRY ALLEN, Los Angeles Times Dec 16, 1979; p. K30
 * AP "Boy Guru Suspected of Smuggling", AP, Sat., Oakland Tribune, Aug. 25, 1973
 * AP "Gifts for a guru". AP, THE STARS AND STRIPES November 15, 1972. p.4
 * AP "Snowballing Movement Centers On Teen-Age Guru From India", AP, THE LAWTON CONSTITUTION-MORNING PRESS, Sunday, July 29, 1973
 * AP "The 'Perfect Master' from India has an ulcer", AP, THE STARS AND STRIPES September 4, 1973 p. 6
 * AP "Investigation under way into Guru's business activities" AP Jun 24, 1974 GREELEY (Colo.) TRIBUNE
 * Axel Michaels, Barbara Harshav. Hinduism: Past and Present. 2004 Princeton University Press, p. 23. ISBN 0691089523
 * Bearak "Miami's startled elite wish the guru, in short, a pleasant stay", By Barry Bearak, Knight-Ridder Service, July 30, 1977. INDEPENDENT PRESS TELEGRAM (Long Beach, CA) A-11
 * Beckford, Of Gods and Men 1983: 195; Langone, 1995 :41
 * Beit-Hallahmi, Benjamin The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Active New Religions, Sects, and Cults, (1997), ISBN 0-8239-1505-0
 * Blau, Eleanor “Guru's Followers Cheer 'Millennium' in Festivities in Astrodome", by Eleanor Blau, New York Times, November 12, 1973
 * Bromley, David G. and Anson D. Shupe, Jr. Strange Gods: The Great American Cult Scare Beacon Press, Boston 1982
 * Bowker, John (Ed.), The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, Oxford University Press, New York (1997) ISBN 0-19-213965-7
 * Carrol, Peter N. Nothing Happened: The Tragedy and Promise of America in the 1970s, Holt, Rinehart and Winston (1982), ISBN 0030583195
 * Carter, Malcolm N. (AP). "There are many evaluations of Guru Maharaj Ji" in Greeley Tribune. Colorado: September 26, 1973, p. 5-A.
 * CARTER "The Guru Who Minds His Mother", MALCOLM N. CARTER. Associated Press THE STARS AND STRIPES, November 4, 1973 Page A6
 * BBB Wise Giving Alliance. Charity report
 * Chryssides, George D., Historical Dictionary of New Religious Movements, Scarecrow Press (2001) ISBN 0-8108-4095-2
 * Clarence Lewis Barnhart, Sol Steinmetz, Robert K. Barnhart. The Second Barnhart Dictionary of New English. Barnhart Books, 1980, ISBN 0060101547, p. 411
 * Clarke, Peter B. (ed). The New Evangelists: Recruitment, Method and Aims of New Religious Movements. London, Ethnographics, 1987, ISBN 0905788605, pg. 10 to 14. Quoted in: Adherents.com, entry Divine Light Mission
 * Colorado Secretary of State, Business Center.
 * Contact Info - Broadcasts
 * Conversation with Prem Rawat, Available online. (Retrieved January 2006)
 * Conway, Flo & Siegelman, Jim. Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change. Stillpoint Press, New York, 1995, 2nd ed., p. 361
 * CORNELL "Guru's cult changing style" GEORGE CORNELL, AP Religion Writer
 * CRUGER "The Mini-Guru: Discourse on Maharaj Ji is scheduled in Wiesbaden" J. KING CRUGER, February 3, 1973 THE STARS AND STRIPES Page 9
 * Dalton, Robert P. "Guru returns to India to overthrow mother", Associated Press Writer, April 9 1975 GREELEY (Colo.) TRIBUNE
 * Dalton "The Guru's Wife Is Another Devotee", Robert P. Dalton, AP Staff Writer, Oakland Tribune. May 23, 1974.
 * Davis, Tom. "Primo premie and the Divine Light 'Kid'" in Bugle-American. April 1974, pp. 36-43
 * Divine United Organization (DUO). Hans Jayanti (2000). New Delhi. (Book published in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of Shri Hans' birth)
 * Drury, Michael, The Dictionary of the Esoteric: 3000 Entries on the Mystical and Occult Traditions, pp.75-6, (2002), Sterling Publishing Company, ISBN 1-842-93108-3
 * DUO "Hans Jayanti" (2000), pp.24-37. DUO, New Delhi, Book published in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of Hans Ji Maharaj's birth by Prem Rawat's Indian organization.
 * Elan Vital FAQs - About Elan Vital, Inc. Available online (Retrieved May, 2006)
 * Enroth, Ronald. Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist Cults Zondervan 1977
 * Fahlbusch E., Lochman J. M., Mbiti J., Pelikan J., Vischer L, Barret D. (Eds.) The Encyclopedia of Christianity (1998), ISBN 90-04-11316-9
 * FAQs about Knowledge Elan Vital website, August 2005. Retrieved November 2005
 * Ferrara, Grace, M., Latin America - 1978, Facts on File.
 * FLYNN "Indian Shrewdness Plus American Merchandising Equals Guru", BETTY FLYNN Chicago Daily News
 * Foss and van der Lans in "Of Gods and Men: New Religious Movements in the West", Eileen Barker, editor. British Sociological Association. Mercer University Press. 1983. ISBN 0865540950
 * Frankiel, Sandra S. in Lippy, Charles H. and Williams. Peter W. (Eds.) Encyclopedia of the American Religious Experience p. 1521, Charles Scribner's Sons (1988), ISBN 0-684-18863-5 (Vol III)
 * Frazier "Seventeen-year-old guru likes pizza and sports cars", DEBORAH FRAZIER UPI Santa Fe, July 13,1975 THE NEW MEXICAN.
 * FRICKE "Gillmore brings intellect, idealism to country music", DAVID FRICKE Rolling Stone Magazine, reprinted in the Daily Herald March 10, 1994
 * Gartrell, CD, and ZK Shannon. 1985. Contacts, cognitions, and conversion: A rational choice approach. Review of Religious Research 27:31—48
 * Geaves "A Statement from Dr. Ron Geaves" September 27, 2004
 * Geaves Ron Geaves in Christopher Partridge (Eds.), New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities pp.201-202, Oxford University Press, USA (2004) ISBN 978-0195220421
 * Geaves, Ron in Partridge, Christopher (Ed.) and Melton, J. Gordon (introduction). New Religions: A Guide: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities. Oxford University Press, USA, 2004, ISBN 978-0195220421, pp. 201–202
 * Geaves, Ron, "From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (Parampara)" in Indian Religions: Renaissance and Revival, ed. Anna King. London: Equinox, 2007
 * Geaves, Ron, "From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital and Beyond: An Exploration of Change and Adaptation", Nova Religio The Journal of Alternative and Emergent Religions, March 2004, Vol. 7, No. 3, Pages 45-62.
 * Gill, Anthony (1998). Rendering unto Caesar: the Catholic Church and the state in Latin America. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, p.168. ISBN 0-226-29385-8.
 * Goring, Rosemary (Ed.). Dictionary of Beliefs & Religions (1997) Wordsworth Editions, ISBN 1-85326-354-0
 * GRAHAM "The New Messiahs attract youthful converts" By VICTORIA GRAHAM Associated Press Writer, Dec. 22, 1973
 * Greenfield, Robert. The Spiritual Supermarket. Saturday Review Press/E. P. Dutton & Co. Inc, New York. 1975 ISBN 084150367
 * Guidestar http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?partner=amex&ein=23-7174539#rptlink1
 * Guiley, Rosemary (1991). Harper's encyclopedia of mystical & paranormal experience. [San Francisco]: HarperSanFrancisco. ISBN 0-06-250366-9.
 * Haan, Wim De missie van het Goddelijk licht van goeroe Maharaj Ji: een subjektieve duiding in the the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland: Feiten en Visies/Religious movements in the Netherlands: facts and opinions nr. 3, herfst 1981, edited by Dr. R. Bakker, Dr. C. J. G. van der Burg, Dr. Reender Kranenborg, Dr. J. van der Lans, and Dr. H. C. Stoffels. ISBN 90-242-2341-5
 * Hadden, Jeffrey K. and Elliot III, Eugene M., Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital in Melton, Gordon J. and Bauman, Martin (Eds.) "Religions of the world: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of beliefs and practices" ABC-CLIO (2002), ISBN 1-57607-223-1
 * Hammond, Phillip E.; Bromley, David G. (1987). The Future of new religious movements. Macon, GA: Mercer University Press, p.36. ISBN 0-86554-238-4.
 * HASLANGER "Through a 'Third Eye' Comes The Divine Light", By PHIL HASLANGER (Of The Capital Times Staff), Capital times, 2/16/73
 * Herd "The 'boy god' with a taste for ice cream...and the good things of life" Richard Herd, Daily Mail, July 12, 1973
 * Hinnells, John (Editor), The Penguin Dictionary of Religions (1997), ISBN 0-14-051261-6
 * Hummel, Reinhart Indische Mission und neue Frömmigkeit im Westen. Religiöse Bewegungen in westlichen Kulturen, Stuttgart 1980, ISBN 3-17-005609-3,
 * Wilson, Bryan R. Social Dimensions of Sectarianism, Oxford University Press, 1990. ISBN 0198278837
 * Hunt, Stephen J. Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp. 116–7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8
 * Jacobi, Judy. "Will the world see the light?" in Bugle-American. December 1972.
 * Jacobs, Janet Liebman. Divine Disenchantment: Deconverting from New Religions. Indiana University Press, Bloomington and Indianapolis, 1989 ISBN 0253323967
 * Jeremy "Jet Set God" By Kathleen Jeremy, Pageant February, 1974.
 * JONES "Cult Deprogrammer Patrick Sentenced to Year in Kidnaping", JACK JONES. Los Angeles Times Sep 27, 1980, pg. SD_A1
 * Kandell "Five sect leaders in Chile sent to desert prison camp.", Jonathan Kandell, New York Times, March 24, 1974
 * Keim, Tony. "Police block drive-in protest against guru", Courier Mail, Australia, September 4, 2002. Web version at rickross.com
 * Khalsa "New Religious Movements Turn to Worldly Success", Kirpal Singh Khalsa, Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Vol. 25, No. 2 (Jun 1986), pp. 233–247
 * KILDAY "Houston's Version of Peace in Our Time" GREGG KILDAY, Los Angeles Times Nov 25, 1973 p. S18
 * Kilday, "Under the Astrodome: Maharaj Ji – The Selling of a Guru", Gregg Kilday, Los Angeles Times, Nov 13, 1973
 * Kopkind, Andrew. The Thirty Years' Wars: Dispatches and Diversions of a Radical Journalist, Verso, United States, 1995, ISBN 1859840965 p. 234
 * Kranenborg, Reender, Neohindoeïstische bewegingen in Nederland: een encyclopedisch overzicht, Kampen Kok cop. (2002)
 * Krebs "Notes on People" Albin Krebs, New York Times November 30, 1974
 * LANDON "Guru's Followers Meet Here Nightly" By SUSAN LANDON, ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL, January 12, 1974
 * Larson, Bob. Larson's Book of Cults. Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois, 1982
 * Larson, Bob (2004). Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative PUBLISHER: Tyndale House Publishers. Wheaton, Ill: Tyndale House Publishers, p.151. ISBN 0-8423-6417-X.
 * Lee, Raymond L M., Sacred Tensions: Modernity and Religious Transformation in Malaysia (1997), The University of South Carolina Press. ISBN 1-57003-167-3
 * Leech, Keneth. Soul Friend (2001), Morehouse Group, ISBN 0-8192-1888-X
 * Levine, Richard Michael. "Who is your guru" in the 1973 section of The Seventies: A Tumultuous Decade Reconsidered (Book by Rolling Stone). Little, Brown and Company (2000). ISBN 0-316-81547-0
 * Levine, Saul V. Life in the Cultsin Galanter, Mark M.D., Cults and new religious movements: a report of the committee on psychiatry and religion of the American Psychiatric Association (1989), ISBN 0-89042-212-5
 * Lewis, James R. The encyclopedia of cults, sects, and new religions. Amherst, N.Y. : Prometheus Books, 1998. ISBN 1573922226 p 301
 * Lichtenstein, "They Won't Boo Loudon Any Longer", Grace Lichtenstein, New York Times, February 3, 1974
 * Lipner, Julius (1994). Hindus: their religious beliefs and practices. New York: Routledge, p.120-1. ISBN 0-415-05181-9.
 * Lippy, Charles H., Pluralism Comes of Age: American Religious Culture in the Twentieth Century, M. E. Sharpe (2002), ISBN 0-7656-0151-6
 * Manav Dharam (2008). Retrieved on March 9, 2008.
 * Mauzy, Diane K., R. S. Milne. Singapore Politics: Under the People's Action Party. Routledge 2002, ISBN ISBN 0415246520 p. 132
 * McKean, Lise. Divine Enterprise: Gurus and the Hindu Nationalist Movement. University of Chicago Press, 1996, ISBN 0226560090.
 * Melton "Elan Vital" in Religious Requirements and Practices of Certain Selected Groups: A Handbook for Chaplains by The Institute for the Study of American Religion (J. Gordon Melton, Project Director - James R. Lewis, Senior Research Associate). 1993 - online edition at Internet Archive, last updated 30 May 2000. The 1993 version already contained:
 * Melton J. Gordon Melton, Christopher Partridge (Eds.), New Religions: A Guide. New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities. pp.201-202, Oxford University Press, USA (2004) ISBN 978-0195220421.
 * Melton, Gordon J., Encyclopedia of American Religions 7th edition. Thomson (2003), ISBN 0-78766-384-0
 * Melton, J. Gordon & Robert L. Moore. The Cult Experience: Responding to the New Religious Pluralism. New York: The Pilgrim Press (1984 [3rd printing; 1st printing 1982]); p. 142.
 * Melton, J. Gordon, The Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America: Revised and Updated Edition. Garland Publishing (1992). p. 222
 * Miller, Tim (Ed.) America's Alternative Religions (S U N Y Series in Religious Studies) (1995) State University of New York Press. ISBN 0-7914-2397-2
 * MOSER "Roadside Playboys and Texana Dames: The supernatural saga of the Hancock family", MARGARET MOSER, Austin Chronicle DECEMBER 31, 2004
 * New Yorker "Bliss and a Regular Coffee", The New Yorker, 10/1/73
 * Newsweek "'You're a Perfect Master'", Newsweek November 19, 1973
 * Olson, Carl. The Many Colors of Hinduism: A Thematic-Historical Introduction. 2007 Rutgers University Press. ISBN 0813540682 p. 345
 * Page 2 - Section B – Sun News – Las Cruces, New Mexico - Wednesday, August 22, 1973
 * Palmer & Keller, Religions of the World, p. 95. 1990 edition quoted in: Adherents.com, entry Divine Light Mission
 * Palmer, Spencer J. P. and Keller R. R., Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View, Brigham Young University (1997) ISBN 0-8425-2350-2
 * Partridge, Christopher H. (2004). New religions: a guide: new religious movements, sects and alternative spiritualities. Oxford [Oxfordshire]: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-522042-0.
 * Patrick, Ted with Tom Dulack, Let Our Children Go!: By the man who rescues brainwashed American youth from sinister 'religious' cults pp. 214-215 (1976) E.P. Dutton & Company, ISBN 0-525-14450-1
 * Petersen, William J. Those Curious New Cults in the 80s. New Canaan, Connecticut: Keats Publishing (1982); p. 146., as quoted in "Adherents.com"[2]
 * Pfarrer, Donald. "The Guru" in The Milwaukee Journal. October 1973
 * Pryor, William, The Survival of the Coolest: A Darwin's Death Defying Journey Into the Interior of Addiction (2004), Clear Press, ISBN 1-904555-13-6
 * Rawat, Prem, Maharaji at Griffith University (2004) ISBN 0-9740627-2-3
 * Rawson "The Cult of Guru Maharaj Ji" Jonathan Rawson, The New Republic, November 17, 1973 p17-18
 * Reed, Pat. "A million dollar cosmic flop" in Bugle-American. November - December 1973, pp. 8-12.
 * Reinhart Hummel. Indische Mission und neue Frömmigkeit im Westen: Religiöse Bewegungen Indiens in westl. Kulturen. Stuttgart: Kohlhammer. ISBN 3-17-005609-3.
 * Reuters "India still studying goods confiscated from youthful guru". New York Times, July 18, 1973
 * RICHARDSON, JAMES T. "Financing the New Religions: Comparative and Theoretical Considerations". Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 1982, 21 (3): 255-268
 * Rolling Stone Magazine. The Seventies: A Tumultous Decade Reconsidered. Rolling Stones Press, 1998. p. 102, ISBN 0-316-75914-7
 * Rose, Stephen C. "The Guru on Fourteenth Street" the christian CENTURY January 19, 1972, pp 67-69
 * Saliba, John A. "THE GURU: PERCEPTIONS OF AMERICAN DEVOTEES OF THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION", HORIZONS 7/1 (1980), 69-81
 * Satpal Ji Maharaj. Retrieved on April 2008.
 * Schomer, Karine (1987). The Sants: studies in a devotional tradition of India. [Berkeley, Calif.]: Berkeley Religious Studies Series. ISBN 0-9612208-0-5.
 * Sims "Guru Maharaj Ji--mystic and business mogul", Patsy Sims, Chicago Tribune, 7/14/74
 * Sims "Teen guru--God to some, a 'bunch of bunk' to others" Patsy Sims, Chicago Tribune 7/15/74
 * Singh "The Guru Business", Khushwant Singh, The New York Times, April 8, 1973
 * Smith Way Out : Radical Alternatives in Australia By Margaret Smith & David Crossley ( Published by: Lansdowne Press ) 1975 ISBN 9780701803896 THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION IN AUSTRALIA Derek Harper & Michael McDonald
 * Sutton, Robert Mize (2005). Modern American communes: a dictionary. Westport, Conn: Greenwood Press. ISBN 0-313-32181-7.
 * The Keys, by Maharaji. thekeys.maharaji.net. Retrieved on May 19, 2008.
 * The Norton/Grove Dictionary of Women Composers, Julie Anne Sadie, Rhian Samuel, 1995, W. W. Norton & Company
 * The Prem Rawat Foundation "About Prem Rawat" at the website of The Prem Rawat Foundation
 * The Prem Rawat Foundation (press release at tprf.org:) San Francisco Mayor honors Prem Rawat, declares Prem Rawat Day June 16, 2005
 * The Prem Rawat Foundation presents: Maharaji at Sanders Theatre, Harvard University'' (2005) ISBN 0-9740627-3-1
 * The Prem Rawat Foundation Press release. Over 3 million people participate in events with Prem Rawat in India
 * The Prem Rawat Foundation website.
 * Time, Feb. 11, 1974 (News briefs)
 * Time Apr. 07, 1975 [4]
 * Time "One Lord Too Many", Time Apr. 28, 1975
 * U.S. Patent Office
 * UPI "Guru following down; tactics changing", UPI, Waterloo Courier Nov. 25, 1976
 * UPI "Guru Maharaj Ji To Launch World Tour To Aid Mission" UPI, PLAYGROUND DAILY NEWS, April 15,1976-Page 3E "As for membership, which has dropped to under 15,000 in the United States, Anctil said record keeping was at fault for the original figures which were inflated."
 * UPI "Two ex-cult officers see possible Guyana repeat", UPI, Newport Rhode Island Daily News November 25, 1978. p. 8
 * UPI "GURU'S HELPERS DEFEND PURCHASE OF BOAT, 56 CARS" UPI Los Angeles Times; Jun 24, 1974; pg. 2
 * van Driel, Barend and James T. Richardson. "Research Note Categorization of New Religious Movements in American Print Media". Sociological Analysis 1988, 49, 2:171-183
 * Von Hoffman. "What Is He—a Lord or an Incredible Fraud?", Nicholas Von Hoffman, (Washington Post columnist) The Capital Times April 27, 1973
 * WALSH "Guru's 17th birthday observed", KENNETH T. WALSH Associated Press, GREELEY (Colo.) TRIBUNE December 11, 1974 p.16
 * Weber, Maximillan. Theory of Social and Economic Organization, Originally published in 1922 in German under the title Wirtschaft und Gesellschaft as cited in Siebers, Tobin (1993). Religion and the authority of the past. Ann Arbor, Mich: University of Michigan Press, p.228. ISBN 0-472-08259-0.
 * Wheen "The Mail man, the Maharaji and the exploding love-bomb: Francis Wheen on: Divine intervention at the Daily Mail." Francis Wheen, The Guardian London, England, July 14, 1999
 * Woodhead, Linda & Fletcher, Paul. Religion in the Modern World: Traditions and Transformations (2001) pp.71-2. Routledge (UK) ISBN 0-415-21784-9"
 * WALSH "Guru's 17th birthday observed", KENNETH T. WALSH Associated Press, GREELEY (Colo.) TRIBUNE December 11, 1974 p.16
 * Weber, Maximillan. Theory of Social and Economic Organization, Originally published in 1922 in German under the title Wirtschaft und Gesellschaft as cited in Siebers, Tobin (1993). Religion and the authority of the past. Ann Arbor, Mich: University of Michigan Press, p.228. ISBN 0-472-08259-0.
 * Wheen "The Mail man, the Maharaji and the exploding love-bomb: Francis Wheen on: Divine intervention at the Daily Mail." Francis Wheen, The Guardian London, England, July 14, 1999
 * Woodhead, Linda & Fletcher, Paul. Religion in the Modern World: Traditions and Transformations (2001) pp.71-2. Routledge (UK) ISBN 0-415-21784-9"

references to Bob Mishler
Some years ago in these pages (about 2006) the subject of the accuracy of the material for the Bob Mishler interview of 1979 was thrashed out. It concluded with the inability of anyone to produce the actual recording of the Bob Mishler interview, and the subsequent removal of that as a legitimate source for any discussion pertaining to Maharaji. So what happened? Has someone unearthed the originals? If not, I propose to delete the references to this interview. Errol V (talk) 10:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Brown 1982 (a respectable source) uses the 1979 radio interview as a source. For inclusion in the bibliographical list such reference (i.e. *Brown 1982*) suffises to the best of my knowledge;
 * The bulk of the interview is available both in audio format and transcript. As, however, as far as I know, publication of the interview is only possible under "fair use" doctrine not compatible with en:Wikipedia's fairly strict Exemption Doctrine Policy we prefer not to link to transcript nor audio files directly from the website. Of course, if you wish, the relevant link and/or files can be sent to you via e-mail.
 * PS: the bibliography page didn't exist yet in 2006. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * In response to Errol, I don't know about the previous discussion but I don't see why an original audio recording is necessary if we have a transcript unless the accuracy of the trascription is disputed. Second, this is a list of significant bibliographic sources on Prem Rawat and related organizations. Some of the entries may not meet the current standards for reliable sources for this project. Those standards are constantly changing, and are further dependent on the particular use of a source.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 17:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If Some of the entries may not meet the current standards for reliable sources for this project, why are these listed? Or is that this article has a special treatment than all other Wikipedia articles? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See Reliable_sources/Noticeboard ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Jossi, you've often said that it is impossible to say whether a source is reliable or not without taking into account the way in which it is used. Were you wrong then or are you wrong now? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 18:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If a source cannot be assessed to be reliable without the context in which is used, then we may have a problem in bibliographies, thus my question in RS/N. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The context here is a list of works concerning a topic. Is there any dispute that these works concern this topic? Are you asserting that the Mishler interview didn't mention either Prem Rawat or any related organizations? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 21:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, a "reliable source" for inclusion of this Mishler interview in the bibliography is Brown 1982. The question of whether or not we can use the interview itself as a source in Wikipedia is irrelevant for determining whether or not we list it in a bibliography, that is: unless we choose to ignore what WP:ASR is about. It would be absurd to think we would bar Flush from Bibliography of Virginia Woolf based on an assessment of whether or not Wikipedia editors could use the book as a reliable source on the dog's (or its owner's) life. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why Brown (1982) is under discussion. He may have used the Mishler interview as a source, but that does not mean that the source was valid. The newspaper article is not an investigation into the validity of the source. Whether or not Brown uses Mishler is irrelevant in determining whether the Mishler tape/transcript is valid or authoritative.

I already have the files (both oral and written), Francis, and the link to them. Whilst the bibliography did not exist in 2006, the discussion of the validity of the transcript/oral recording did occur at that time.

My original claim was that this transcript was not a transcript of the interview. The transcript and oral thing are not the same. Certainly then, Will, the accuracy of the transcript is disputed. There is no audio recording that supports the transcript. The original recording has never been produced. Given that the transcript of the interview appears on a site devoted to attacking every aspect of Prem Rawat's life and work, no-one could argue that that transcript has validity.

I propose to remove the reference to Mishler if the original interview cannot be sourced. Errol V (talk) 02:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "valid" in the context of your contribution above (e.g., "... that does not mean that the source was valid")? --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps Errol V can find the 2006 discussion he mentioned. I don't know what an "oral file" is. Also, I don't understand the assertion that "this transcript was not a transcript of the interview". Then what is it? Has Errol V heard the original radio show, live or recorded? Perhaps Francis can provide links to the purportedly copyright violating versions online. Without something substantial there's nothing here but rhetoric. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 19:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Francis, I meant that, just because Brown might have used the transcript of the interview, it does not legitimate the transcript; that is, if there is no recording of the original interview, then any transcript that is purported to be of the interview must be viewed with some caution. Will, the discussion of the matter in 2006 was in a "Criticism of Prem Rawat" entry that no longer exists. I'm not sure how to find the particular document. In this case, the "oral file" is the mp3 file purporting to be the Mishler interview. Read the transcript; listen to the inteview. They were never the same; one was a fragment from which the "transcript" was generated. Unless the whole recording has come to light since 2006, in which case I would have to question its legitimacy. Unfortunately, there is a lot more here than rhetoric. It is an issue that is core to the value of Wikipedia as a source. (It's an interesting method of discussion, Will, to address me in the third person, as a kind of aside to a wider audience.) Errol V (talk) 10:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Really, the transcript you're referring to is of no importance (as in, OF NO SIGNIFICANCE AT ALL) when determining whether we list the interview in the bibliographic list. Brown didn't use it (that's almost certain): that transcript only came into existence some 20 years after Brown published his article afaik. No relevance can be attached to that transcript (nor to any other for that matter) when determining whether we include it in the bibliography: such transcript would only be a primary source, of no value for determining its notability in Wikipedia context. No transcript (or "MP3") is mentioned in the bibliography article, and I'm intending to keep it that way unless one is published in what we call a reliable source, and again whether such publication exists or not is of no relevance for the question of whether we list it in the bibliography.


 * Brown is relevant for the significance of the interview, not of any purported transcript or audio file of it. So we mention the interview in the bibliographic list, not any transcript or audio file, published or non-published. It is outside Wikipedia's remit to do any "Quellen"-research (WP:NOR): if a reliable source (like Brown) both testifies to the interview's existence, and in Wikipedia context also signals its significance, so that following our core content policies we can mention it in the bibliography, that's it. We should stop there per our core content policies, unless other reliable sources are or would become available.


 * The archives of the "Criticism of Prem Rawat" talk pages are still available, they're linked from the lead section (third bullet) of the Talk:Prem Rawat page (14 + 1 direct links in total). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Francis raises some good points. The issue sourcing is whether the interview ever existed, and whether it is significant. We have several interviews listed, including the Merv Griffin show from 1973. The interview itself is the bibliographic entry here, not some particular copy or trascription (though links to those could be added if there weren't copyright issues). Errol's apparent assertion that people sat around making a fake interview is interesting, but it is irrelevant. Someone could get a friend and pretend to do the Griffin interview on video, but doing so would not make the actual interview an unsuitable bibliographic entry. Someone could desktop publish their own version of Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?, but that wouldn't invalidate the actual book. As for addressing other editors, there are at least four editors in this thread so second-person pronouns can be confusing. No disrespect is intended.   ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 05:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In any kind of writing that pretends to uncover some kind of truth, the primary sources have to be available. Those primary sources become the evidence. Francis says that we have to include the interview in the list, even though no-one is allowed to see it. Francis' claim——because Brown quotes from it, it is OK without further ado and we don't have to know anything about it——is wrong and also contradicts the inclusion of the interview in the bibliography. A bibliography has to have in it items that are accessible to others. That's the reason for having a bibliography. A bibliography is, on one level, a source of reliable information about a topic. To suggest that a bibliography includes material that might not exist is nonsensical. Any academic dedicated to the notion that "truth" is a worthwhile goal would laugh at the suggestion that original evidence does not have to be produced and documented, so that others can also test theories against that evidence.

You can't argue that it doesn't matter if the interview exists or not. It is of the utmost importance to the notion of verifiability. Errol V (talk) 11:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia doesn't pretend to uncover some kind of truth, on the contrary, per policy (WP:V): verifiability, not truth. Whether it is true or not that a person named Mishler had left a movement called DLM by 1979 is indifferent to me, and in general, to Wikipedia. Whether we have a reference to a reliable source mentioning that he gave a radio interview in February 1979 is not.


 * Re. "A bibliography has to have in it items that are accessible to others", no. A bibliography on Max Jacob may list the comedy play Ruffian toujours, truand jamais, premiered in 1920. That work is accessible to nobody. Likewise, any bibliography on Helmina von Chézy would list Rosamunde, Fürstin von Zypern, premiered 1823: this work also is available to nobody. Wikipedia's Bibliography of Fibonacci lists two works available to nobody, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

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Article content
I seem to have stumbled into the briar patch again ...

How is this encyclopedic in its current form? It appears to be a list of every newspaper clipping about this man. While a list of his own works would be standard, and including "related organizations" is a reasonable decision, I can't see how including a mention of a 1973 LA Times article "15-Year Old Guru Slapped in Face by Shaving Cream Pie" is relevant here. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 19:11, 9 March 2018 (UTC)


 * You are right. I have carried out a statistical analysis of the content of this page:
 * the decade 1970-1979 represents 55% of references and the list ends in 2009;
 * press articles, concentrated on the period 70-79, represent 46% of references, including around ten pornographic reviews or tabloid press;
 * each miscellaneous facts of no encyclopedic importance (like the cream pie that hit him in 1973) represent up to 3 entries;
 * there are some oddities in there, like a judgment rendered from a personal affair of a follower, a film defending a theory about aliens. As soon as the name of PR alias Maharaji appears somewhere, it seems to justify being included in this motley catalog;
 * the word that comes up the most on the page is “Guru”: 144 times, almost as many times as the number of entries.
 * Nonetheless, this list contains a significant number of encyclopedic sources (34%), focused almost exclusively on the study of New Religious Movements, in which Prem Rawat inadvertently found himself classified. No matter how often he has reaffirmed that he professes no belief, being a follower of knowledge through experimentation, he had to struggle (including among his supporters) against this temptation to create a new dogma. Regularly he updates, the clear distinction between “believe and know” being at the heart of his message. Here is the observation he said recently about cult:
 * “What is the definition of cult? Cult. This is not the official definition because the official definition is: before a religion becomes a religion, it’s called a cult. What is it about? It’s about beliefs. Believe, believe, believe, believe. […] Do you think for a second that it is a mistake that Socrates says, “Know thyself”? Begin from that. Point one: know thyself. Not “believe in yourself”, “know thyself”. What would the difference be if he said, “believe in yourself”? This would be so much more palatable for the society today.” – Charlwood, UK, September 12, 2020.
 * This is an excerpt from a larger article, posted on my user page, which gives some key insights that can be used to rewrite Prem Rawat's biography entirely. I regularly add new subjects.
 * Do not hesitate to contact me to talk about this project if it interests you in a constructive and honest spirit.--Faunus (talk) 23:17, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Below the beginning of Part 2 of “The quality of the sources” on my user page, about Mike Finch's testimony:
 * I was interested in the last reference on Bibliography of PR, Without the Guru: How I Took My Life Back After Thirty Years, by Mike Finch, 2009. This is a testimonial from the person who created the Prem Rawat page. Although Mike Finch did not register on Wikipedia, and is therefore difficult to track later, he did sign this first version: “Mike Finch’s introduction to Maharaji”.
 * Symbolically, it thus closes a sequence on several the most questionable of the pages concerning PR, highlighting the incredible influence that a small and very active group of those disappointed with Knowledge were able to exert on this narration.
 * Therefore, I read Finch’s book and what I discovered there sheds light on the manipulation he and others engaged in, probably in good faith as far as he was concerned…
 * The link to the full article Dr Finch’s strange book – Faunus (talk) 10:05, 1 June 2021 (UTC)