Talk:Indonesian National Armed Forces

Announcing Indonesia-related topics notice board
After some thought and consideration, I created an Indonesia-related topics notice board, along the same lines as other regional notice boards (such as those for Malaysia and Africa). This was established to coordinate efforts to improve Indonesia-related Wikipedia entries. If you've made contributions to Indonesia-related articles in the past, or would like to, please take some time to visit, introduce yourself, and sign the roster. --Daniel June 30, 2005 18:36 (UTC)

Breakup
This article is becoming too long as an extended equipment list (see WP:Not if you dont understand that) with negligble cited sources for what history is contained. It is about to be broken up into separate subsidiary articles from the main.

If you are adding material - please use or find citations for your information otherwise the added info will be reverted. If you are not a native speaker of english - please note your text will probably be modified as this is an english based part of Wikipedia. SatuSuro 01:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Army removed first - adjustments will need to be made to this article and the army article - please help! SatuSuro 01:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Balance
This article is overweighted towards the Air Force, and very light on the other armed services. It also needs much more referencing. I have tidied it up, but it's another item on the long list of Indonesian articles needing substantial work. Oh for 36 hours in the day! Davidelit 04:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mig21now.jpg
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BetacommandBot 03:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Id-navyflag.jpg
Image:Id-navyflag.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 08:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Minor editing, etc
Offering some minor editing here- pls feel free to revert if you don't like the changes.Starstylers (talk) 07:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Minor? the articles is one hell of a mess SatuSuro 09:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Davidelit's revert
Davidelit, could you explain your revert of my edit? You gave no edit summary. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course, Davidelit can speak for himself and may provide a differnt rationale, but in the meantime, I note that your edit had no explanatory summary. Any benefit of your change are not self-evident and in lieu of any explanation, I support David’s revert. --Merbabu (talk) 23:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Ucucha 13:56, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Indonesian National Armed Forces → Indonesian National Defence Forces — I this article in June from the generic name Military of Indonesia to a translation that approximates the official name. Since then, the Indonesian military has come up with an official translation which is written on the official website. By accessing the drop down menu below the navigation bar, one can see an English version of the website with the banner "Indonesian National Defence Forces". This translation is also used by foreign sources: (The Straits Times) (Singapore Ministry of Defence) (Channel NewsAsia)—Arsonal (talk) 20:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Straight forward, for reasons given by proposer. Skinsmoke (talk) 09:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Seems sensible Nick-D (talk) 09:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose Tentara translates to military. Suggest "Indonesian National Military" instead. Further, I suggest no move be made until notification is given on the Indonesia project noticeboard. --Merbabu (talk) 10:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Direct translation does not work. Tentara is more accurately translated as soldier or infantryman. The translation to military exists because militaries in pre-modern Indonesia have largely been land armies. Arsonal (talk) 14:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Further comment. The Echols & Shadily Kamus Indonesia Inggris defines "Tentara" as "army, and the affixed noun "ketentaraan" as "military" or "military forces". Of course in headlines such as "Perempuan Biak diperkosa tentara Indonesia", "tentara" would be soldier/s. Davidelit (Talk) 15:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose Local Engish language media uses "military" when referring to the TNI as per dictionary translation of "tentara". Suggest keeping the title as it is or "Indonesian National Military". Davidelit (Talk) 13:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Examples of local English media usage, please. A broad statement of "this happens", without verification, is meaningless.  The proposer of the move has produced specific examples of usage.  To counter those examples, you need to produce examples showing that this is minority usage.  Skinsmoke (talk) 17:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why was the page moved? --Merbabu (talk) 07:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The reasoning was as eloquent as an Indonesian bureaucrat might try - immigrasi di Yogyakarta - couldnt do better SatuSuro 08:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Role of KNIL
Noticed the role of the KNIL trained military men in the formation of the TNI is not described in this article. Next to the Japanese trained military, (ironically) the Dutch trained military played a decisive role in formalising the TNI and controling unorganised revolutionary fighting forces. Most top TNI brass were in fact ex-KNIL, even Nasution and Suharto himself. The autobiography of Kawilarang (also ex-KNIL) paints a vivid picture of the early formation of the TNI. Hope my comments are usefull. Kind rgds, --KARL RAN (talk) 13:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Ow, btw the 1948 picture with Indonesian soldiers in the article is of the Minahassa KNIL reserve corps based in Tondano. In 1948 the Minahassa was still Dutch controled and a military springboard to Java and elsewhere. So the image certainly does not show TNI soldiers. It is possible these soldiers later joined the TNI, but being reserve troops (elderly veterans) its more likely they would have retired from military service. --KARL RAN (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I've tried to rewrite and mentioned about KNIL role and link in TNI formation. I've also changed the picture of KNIL Minahasan reserve to Battle of Surabaya and General Sudirman to depict about TNI formation during Indonesian National Revolution.


 * "Before the formation of Indonesian Republic, the military authority in Dutch East Indies was held by Royal Dutch East Indies Army (KNIL). Despite KNIL is not directly responsible for the formation of the future Indonesian armed forces, and mainly took role as the foe during Indonesian National Revolution in 1945-1949, somehow KNIL provides military training and infrastructure for some of the future TNI officers. There is some military training center, military school and academy in Dutch East Indies. Next to Dutch and European militia, KNIL also recruting native, especially South Moluccan, Timorese, and Manadonese. In 1940 with the Netherlands under German occupation and the Japanese pressing for access to Dutch East Indies oil supplies, the Dutch had opened up the KNIL to large intakes of previously excluded Javanese. Some of the native soldier that had enjoyed Dutch KNIL military academy education and later will become important TNI officer is Suharto and Nasution."


 * Thank you for your information and insight (Gunkarta (talk) 18:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)).

Excellent contribution Gunkarta. 1 remark: Although the Ambonese and Menadonese received special treatment (better pay for regulars only, not for officers) as so called martial races, I read that the majority of indigenous KNIL soldiers have always come from Java. According to Dutch Ministry of Defense records already in 1914 the majority of KNIL soldiers was Javanese and Sundanese. By 1939 there were almost 14.000 soldiers from Java (excl.Madurese) and a mere 4.000 from Ambon. --KARL RAN (talk) 17:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

on the name "ABRI"
There is a statement

"During the New Order-regime the "Tentara Nasional Indonesia" (Indonesian National Army/TNI) changed its name to "Angkatan Bersenjata Republik Indonesia" (Republic of Indonesia Armed Forces/ABRI) and incorporated the POLRI (Indonesian National Police)."

I don't think this is the case. The name ABRI was already known before the New Order regime. The list of 1st Dwikora Cabinet clearly showed these ministerial posts with the association to the name ABRI:
 * 1) Menteri Koordinator/Kepala Staf ABRI :   (coordinating minister/chief of staff of the armed forces)
 * 2) Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Darat:         (minister/commander of the army)
 * 3) Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Laut:          (minister/commander of the navy)
 * 4) Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Udara:         (minister/commander of the air force)
 * 5) Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Kepolisian:    (minister/commander of the police force)
 * 1) Menteri/Panglima Angkatan Kepolisian:    (minister/commander of the police force)

Also, the National Police was already under the purview of the Menko/KSAB then, and was considered the 'fourth branch' of the Armed Forces. It is evident by the name put forward by the Communist Party when the Party proposed to arm peasants and labours, which would be called 'the Fifth Branch' (Angkatan Ke-5).

My points are: Djawahiri136 (talk) 01:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) the name ABRI is not creation of the New Order, rather of President Soekarno's era
 * 2) the set-up to place the Police Force under military purview was begun in the President Soekarno'era, not of the New Order

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History section
I'd like to remove entire history section since there is a page dedicated for Indonesian military history. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:50, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Literal Translation
The word "Indonesian National Armed Forces" should be translated in Indonesian as "Angkatan Bersenjata Nasional Indonesia" Which is not the actual translation of "Tentara Nasional Indonesia (TNI)" Meanwhile TNI literal translation is "Indonesian National Army" This also applied to its military branches such as TNI-AD (TNI-Angkatan Darat) or TNI-Ground Force, TNI-Angkatan Udara (lit. TNI-Air Force), and TNI-Angkatan Laut (lit. TNI-Sea Force) or (TNI-Navy)

I would suggest to move and change the translations of TNI and its branches. Mhatopzz (talk) 06:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Disagree... per WP:NONENG Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians nobody refer "Indonesian National Army" as TNI or "TNI-Ground Force" as TNI-AD. whereas it's easy to find sources that refer Indonesian National Armed Forces as TNI (such as 1, 2 and 3) or Indonesian army as TNI-AD. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:53, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Quotation translation
Hi @Davidelit regarding to the translation of quoting the "Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia" while a matter of elegance is up to each interpretation and opinion of the respective Wikipedians. Wouldn't official documents be preferred in this case as per WP:NONENG? Another source I would like to cite is the 1945 Constitution of the Republic of Indonesia (English translation) from the Constitutional Court in which it states on Article 25A - Chapter IXA (regarding State Territory):

"The Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia is an archipelagic state having an Archipelagic (Nusantara) character with a territory, the borders and rights of whose territory is stipulated by law."

The same translations were also used in Article 18 and 18B - Chapter VI (regarding Local Governments), and Article 37 - Chapter XVI (regarding Constitutional Amendments)

Same translation also exist in "The Military English Handbook" by the Army Personnel Staff. While I personally agree 'Official' translations can be rough, and a good translation should be a nice amount of poetic, and literal. This is to prevent stiff and/or easily misinterpreted translations. However In this specific case I found 'Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia' fits better than 'Unitary Republic of Indonesia'. As NKRI is ' Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia ' and not 'Republik Kesatuan Indonesia '. I do not find this specific case as incorrect or rough. What are your thoughts on this? EvoSwatch (talk) 15:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I second comments, aside per WP:NONENG whereas sourced translation is preferred. WP also prefer commonly or frequently used word use for translation (IMO WP:COMMONNAME can be applies here). And there are plenty references that translate Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia as 'Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia', such as Indonesia's socio-political developments during Jokowi's leadership, Transforming East Asian Domestic and International Politics, Conflict, Community, and Criminality in Southeast Asia and Australia: Assessments from the Field, Travel Indonesia and many more, which shows that's the common translation for that word. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)