Talk:Killzone Shadow Fall

Killzone 4?
Should Killzone 4 redirect here? I say no, because this takes place 30 some years after KZ3, so that's a large chunk of time that they could put an actual KZ4 title. -- JDC808  ♫  20:22, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Copyright vio?
Except for the first and last sentence, the whole "Development" section seems to be copied from the referenced source. I don't know if that would be OK if it is quoted as a whole, but likely not just by putting a reference at the end of one of two paragraphs... I am not an expert in Wikipedia policies, so I marked it with a CopyPaste template. Any expert here / opinions? Padyx (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Was fixed by other user. Change http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killzone:_Shadow_Fall&diff=next&oldid=563891755 Padyx (talk) 19:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Except it wasn't. :/ I'm investigating this day's listings from the copyright problems board. The problem was made less severe, but not fixed.


 * I've added bolding to make duplication more clear. We have one word added and some content cut out, but everything that is there is still copy-pasted from the source. This is inconsistent with our copyright policy, which requires that except for limited and clearly marked quotations content must be written in our own words. See Copy-paste. I've removed the passage. The information can be restored when it accords with policies. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:04, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting that, Moonriddengirl. The tons of WP guidelines are overwhelming, so I usually just add the warning templates. Glad someone with copyright experience actually looks at them ;) Padyx (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for noting the issue. :) The warning template is a good way to get people to look at things, as even when they're removed without addressing the problem they are still listed by bot at the copyright problems board. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:46, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Killzone 4 Reception
I reverted the reception portion back to what it originally said. The recent edits contained misinformation. For instance: "Aggregating review website Metacritic assigned a score of 73 out of 100, the lowest score ever for the Killzone franchise." In fact, Killzone 1 was rated lower. Also, it described the reception as "lukewarm". I consider that misleading for a 74/100 score, which, on other aggregate websites, is considered well over "fresh" (i.e. good). Also, for whatever reason, some of the high scores were removed and replaced with scores from significantly less prominent gaming websites.

Requested move 04 December 2013

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. There are no outstanding opposes, and the premise seems reasonable: sources are split so the "official" one is as good as any. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 18:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Killzone: Shadow Fall → Killzone Shadow Fall – The actual title does not have a colon, just like Star Trek Into Darkness doesn't. If you're on the PlayStation Store, the games content says "Killzone Shadow Fall is a registered trademark..." (no colon). When you're viewing it on the PS4, there is not a colon, nor is there one when viewing the game's trophies. The page currently titled "Killzone Shadow Fall" is a redirect to this article, which is why I couldn't move the page myself. JDC808  ♫  22:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Oppose . Per references -, . Sir Lothar (talk) 13:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * References don't always use the correct title. Look at the official Killzone website, there's no colon. Then the section specifically about Shadow Fall; no colon. -- JDC808  ♫  18:18, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I've checked game manual of Shadow Fall - no colon too. Deleting oppose vote. Sir Lothar (talk) 13:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * I get conflicting official sources. Even game publisher Sony's official press releases are inconsistent: In this press release, the colon is used in the text body, but not used at the bottom disclaimer paragraph listing all the trademarks. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:26, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * When the game was first announced and the few months following, posts from Sony used the colon. Since about a couple or so months before the game's launch, all posts from Sony dropped the colon. The official website does not use the colon, and the official Facebook page for Killzone does not use the colon, Furthermore, when the game is selected on the PS4 system (including when viewing trophy, saved, and install data), there's no colon. -- JDC808  ♫  08:02, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Trophies
Oddly the article makes no mention of the trophies, winning these is surely one of the aims of the game: http://www.exophase.com/game/killzone-shadow-fall-ps4/trophies/ John a s (talk) 07:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Engine
The engine is not called Umbra 3, Umbra is just a software stack the Killzone Shadow Fall engine uses like almost every game does nowadays and it should be changed. Markthemac (talk) 03:31, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 5 August 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion depicting very narrow consensus with no vote in the past 8 days, and consistency criteria with other related articles. COMMONNAME may be muddled, but this certainly will not mislead readers, as anyone who searches for either option on Wikipedia will find the article. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 04:31, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Killzone Shadow Fall → Killzone: Shadow Fall – per WP:COMMONNAME. Most sources has it with the colon. The page originally also had the colon, and I dont even know how the removal came about, its completely illogical. Even another game in the same series, Killzone: Mercenary, has it -- FMSky (talk) 13:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME (just from the first page of Google results, Metacritic, IMDb, Amazon, GameStop, and IGN all use the colon) and for consistency with other Killzone titles. Surachit (talk) 22:24, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose: The game's official title does not have a colon. See PlayStation Store. OceanHok (talk) 01:13, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * irrelevant, WP:COMMONNAME FMSky (talk) 01:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Google search shows that "Killzone: Shadow Fall" has 1,660,000 results, while Killzone Shadow Fall has 1,740,000 results. I am not convined that the version with colon is the WP:COMMONNAME. There are plenty of RS that simply use "Killzone Shadow Fall" as well. OceanHok (talk) 12:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

— Relisting. Muhibm0307 (talk) 01:39, 18 August 2021 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support Most RS seem to have it with a colon. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 03:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Colon
- The title in the text should not follow the article's title, because the title is referring to the official name of the product (which is Killzone Shadow Fall instead of Killzone: Shadow Fall), and not its colloquially referred name (or the so-called common name). See Fall Guys (Fall Guys vs. Fall Guys: Ultimate Knockout), Spider-Man (2018 video game) (Spider-Man vs. Marvel's Spider-Man), Civilization VI (Civilization VI vs. Sid Meier's Civilization VI). What we need in the lead is the official title, the official name of the game, not the common name. For the infobox, see the documentations in Template:Infobox video game, which clearly stated that we should list "the full name of the game including punctuation and style". OceanHok (talk) 05:48, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For where you can find the official name, please see the PlayStation Store. OceanHok (talk) 05:49, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Official sites on all fronts list it without a colon, such as here, here, and here with a convincing degree of consistency. I'm not sure why COMMONNAME is being brought up repeatedly when it is a name policy, not a title style policy. Even then, a significant number of sources refer to the game by the colon-less title, so it cannot just be brushed off as "not COMMONNAME". IceWelder  &#91; &#9993; &#93; 08:48, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I absolutely don't think it is right to twist a game's official title so that it would fit the so-called WP:COMMONNAME. OceanHok (talk) 09:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you plan on addressing these concerns? You did engage in further moving but failed to reply here. Also pinging the other mover, . IceWelder  &#91; &#9993; &#93; 07:56, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There's also the thing that Killzone: Liberation and Killzone: Mercenary both have the colon, so just for consistency reasons Shadow Fall should also have one IMO FMSky (talk) 20:39, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how former titles have any bearing here. Liberation and Mercenary had colons, Shadowfall does not. The intertopical consistency here should be using the correct game name, not forcing colons where there are none. This isn't uncommon either; the same happened with Assassin's Creed from Assassin's Creed Rogue and with Battlefield starting at Battlefield Hardline, for example. IceWelder  &#91; &#9993; &#93; 20:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It is just wrong to twist the game's official title just to make things look seemingly "consistent". If the common name is debated, we should stick to the official title instead. OceanHok (talk) 12:21, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 29 January 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. There seems to be a consensus once again to revert to the colon-less version. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 15:38, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Killzone: Shadow Fall → Killzone Shadow Fall – The official name of the game is "Killzone Shadow Fall" without a colon. This can be seen primarily on its store page, as well as the developer's site, the platform blog, and the publisher's PR. Even though previous titles in the series have used a colon in their titles, Shadow Fall does not. This is not an inconsistency but rather a trend in the industry; Assassin's Creed notably stopped using colons midway through and has consistently excluded them since. Reliable, secondary sources name Shadow Fall both with and without the colon, yet the ones with the colon do not outweigh the others enough to feasibly claim WP:COMMONNAME (as was the case in the previous discussion, which also had no clear consensus). Moreover, the COMMONNAME guideline should not be understood as a style policy. WP:OFFICIALNAME prevails. IceWelder &#91; &#9993; &#93; 15:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment: Pinging the contributors of the past few discussions on the matter: . IceWelder  &#91; &#9993; &#93; 15:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. "Killzone Shadow Fall" is also commonly used by RS, and it is also the official game title. OceanHok (talk) 15:38, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per my !vote in the last move discussion. While it does seem to be the "official" name, it doesn't seem to be the one that is most used by reliable sources, and for good reason. Without a colon it's not obvious whether the series name is Killzone: Shadow Fall, or Killzone Shadow: Fall. The colon serves a clear purpose in showing it's part of the Killzone series, and its removal seems to be only for stylistic effect. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:02, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The second sentence of the article currently says: "It is the sixth game of the Killzone series". I fail to believe that readers would interpret an incorrect series from a title that, by itself, does not indicate a series affiliation. When Horizon Zero Dawn was released, the name stood on its own; no one went into the article wondering whether "Horzion" or "Horizon Zero" was the series name, nor was there any series at that point. Assassin's Creed Origins and other articles from that series have been not-using the colon for years without issue. IceWelder  &#91; &#9993; &#93; 16:12, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That was probably a factor of the fact that it wasn't even a series at that point. Nobody was sure whether the series name would be "Horizon" or the entire "Horizon Zero Dawn". (Now we know that it was the former). Anyway, I will firmly stand on the side of correct grammar regardless, since anything that makes things more confusing for readers is a net negative, which is literally why WP:COMMONNAME exists. Heck, I'd rename it to Horizon: Zero Dawn if I could. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support I missed the previous move discussion. It should have never been moved to having the colon. Official title does not have a colon. This is an industry trend (no colon) that's been happening for awhile now. Per OP, OFFICIALNAME prevails here as it did when the article was long time titled without the colon. -- JDC808  ♫  16:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Support Per nom, Ocean and JDC808. There's not much to add here. The game does not have a colon in it's title. -- ferret (talk) 22:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per Colon Cancer (per nom). Axem Titanium (talk) 22:36, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Neutral - Why must we always waste our time with debates like this? There's no difference in meaning in either option, and redirects make it so either option being typed into a search bar gets the reader to the same article. It literally doesn't matter. Sergecross73   msg me  03:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is a worthless debate. Precision matters, and the addition of an unnecessary colon indicates that we are misrepresenting the product's title. While Killzone's common name is debated, definitely no one can say "Sonic: Frontiers", or "Assassin's Creed: Odyssey" or "Super Mario: Odyssey" are correct titles, even if they have no difference in meaning. OceanHok (talk) 14:00, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The article was moved seven times last year: Three bold moves, three reverts, and one move resulting from the poorly handled RM above. Opposition to dropping the colon came primarily from one user. To settle the issue in the long-term, a proper discussion with a well-established consensus is the best option, hance this requested move. IceWelder  &#91; &#9993; &#93; 14:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support. No justification for the colon. But I disagree that the above RM was badly handled, I think the closer did the right thing under the circumstances. And this RM is also the right thing under the circumstances, and will hopefully lead to stability. Andrewa (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2022 (UTC)