User talk:ChildofMidnight/Archive 7

Mitch Morgan
Since I think you are still blocked I will bring this reply up here, a Mitch Morgan is bourbon whiskey with fried bacon as a garnish. See this source from J-D's Down Home Enterprises.


 * I've been blocked? With no warning and no notice from the blocking administrator? Shocking! ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have just laid out a challenge at Mies, Dr's page, get eight bacon articles DYK worthy simultaneously, and have a whole bacon DYK update...thoughts?--kelapstick (talk) 20:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Whoa, did I miss that? It must have been while I was jamming with the old guys across the street. Sorry I missed it. Hee-haw for America! Drmies (talk) 06:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You and the Dr. should be blocked. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You are probably right.--kelapstick (talk) 20:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

To do
Sugar balls. Delete or remove the bit about gifting. Create Modak which seems to be legitimate and interesting and doesn't have an article. and. Or better yet, redirect Modak (sweet rice flour dumplings) to Indian sweets, add the info there, and redirect Sweet balls there too (although I hven't seen that terminology used so even as a redirect it's not especially useful). Namaste. This source says Modak is a type of karanji (links ot dumpling). This site says Karanji are quite similar to ‘modaks’, but have the shape of the 4th day moon. And this source says any food offered to the Gods is a ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, finally a source with some content. The encyclopedia of India. and indeed this site calls them "sweet balls in the name of Mars". Ooh this is a good source too . Getting fun now. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:25, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Should Hollywood Palladium be added to Streamline Modern article? Mention Johnnies to Minnaert. List of sources removed/ censored? BRC? Khalidi evidence. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

A paragraph from Disruptive editing
In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has rejected it, repeating it almost without end, and refusing to acknowledge others' input or their own error. Often such editors are continuing to base future attacks and edits upon the rejected statement. Such an action is disruptive to Wikipedia. Thinking one has a valid point does not confer the right to act like it is accepted when it is not.--Sky Attacker (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The policies on edit warring and 3RR are fairly clear and I've copied and posted the entire section that the blocking admin said he based his decision on after numerous editors questioned his inappropriate and policy violating actions and he finally commented here on my talk page as he should have done initially. There was no violation, even the person who filed the ANI report itself notes this. Furthermore:
 * The blocking Admin failed to engage in any discussion.
 * The blocking Admin failed to issue any warnings.
 * The blocking Admin failed to post a notice of the block.
 * The blocking Admin failed to discuss his reasoning and the specifics of why he blocked me hours after the last of my 2 reverts over the course of 24 hours when the policies clearly state that a block should only be done for ongoing dispute or disuption, saying it would be a waste of his time. Yes there were also 2 reverts the day before, and there was also discussion involved and there was no ongoing disruption, there was just another series of ANI reports about unrelated content from an abusive editor who has been engaged in refactoring and a long term smear campaign to harass me and malign my work here.

Read the policies and guidelines and don't come here making bogus insinuations.

We're dealing with clear vandalism and abuse by Wikidemon who has made a series of ANI reports in order to win content disputes as is prohibited by policies and guidelines and who has been repeatedly engaged in "any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia". That's from the first line of the WP:VANDALISM policy. Many of the Admins here like to point to policy, but they don't seem to bother reading it or understanding what it actually says.

All of my edits and actions here are in good faith and to improve the encyclopedia. All my discussions are here on Wiki not some Admin only chat channel.

An Admin who would block without discussion or warning and without even bothering to provide a notice (let alone any diffs), and then state that editors should "Remember that 'policy' is descriptive of current community practice, not prescriptive and binding" is obviously either incompetent, a hypocrite or wholly without integrity, as are those Admins who stand by and allow him to openly engage in this type of behavior.

That you've chosen to side with those violating our policies and guidelines, misrepresenting them, and openly expressing their disrespect for what they term "red tape" doesn't speak highly for your judgement or integrity.

Obviously I can't stop any member of our army of Admins from issuing inappropriate blocks on my account, but I will not remain silent while ongoing disruption, capital V vandalism, and abuse continues to occur. I've provided numerous diffs of obvious personal attacks and other clear policy violations, but those who have powerful friends are well protected. I hope that there are enough editors on here with integrity to put a stop to the ongoing abuse, but obviously there are many powerful editors who are very misguided and who brazenly refuse to abide and respect our policies and guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:44, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Um... most admins will not believe you if you say that an established editor is "vandalizing" the project by engaging in a content dispute. That's because it's very difficult (and entirely distracting) to establish whether the person is trying to make Wikipedia "worse", by their own definition of "worse". That's what's required to establish vandalism, and it... is impossible to show that. Mind reading is what it would take. Engaging in a content dispute is, pretty much by definition, not vandalism. You may argue this point, but doing so will not serve you in any way. I say this, not to antagonize or irritate, but hopefully to be helpful. Identifying another established editor's actions as vandalism has roughly a 0% chance of helping you in any way. I'm not sure helping yourself is your goal, but if it is... I was sorry to see you blocked. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

About before
Hey thanks for changing the mistake I made on my user talk page. And the earlier comment, I wasn't siding with them at all. I know that you are a GOOD EDITOR. I was just worried that if you didn't accept their ways, they would attack you even more. Yes, sometimes, the power of admins can seem unfair, I know the feeling. But there is nothing that users like us can do about that. At least you are unblocked now. -- The Legendary   Sky Attacker  03:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thanks for the note. I expect Admins to abide by our guidelines and to enforce them.  Makes me a dreamer I know. ;) ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

In fact, I might add you as a WikiFriend. -- The Legendary   Sky Attacker  03:24, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, but I don't know what I'll do if I get more friends than I can keep track of with both hands. Plus you might find yourself on some kind of blacklist. I know a Dr. that used to be fairly sane before he started hanging out with me on here... ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I know of your position here on Wikipedia, hence the might in the last comment. But I don't want to become annoying to users like Musicaindustrial. Besides, the only reason you were blocked so easily was because Wizardman and Werdna have more friends on here than they can keep track of with SIX HANDS ;). -- The Legendary   Sky Attacker  03:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Yeah, thanks. I was going to do that but some of the sections I removed don't really seem worth keeping note of. But if I do change my mind and want to archive them, I can always get them back per my user talk page history. But thank you for the heads-up. -- The Legendary   Sky Attacker  04:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Mongolia - Costa Rica relations
I can't understand how this important topic has remained without an article. Maybe someone should start one. Costa Rica's aid will be vital in making Rainforest Tours in Mongolia a reality. I rather enjoy these articles (although I skip the totally impossible ones) and am getting slightly addicted. Like doing jigsaw puzzles. A bit silly, but harmless. At least the discussions stay reasonably calm and impersonal. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you should weigh in on Lichtenstein - Cook Islands relations&mdash;other topic deserving attention. Bongo  matic  15:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Too obvious. See Liechtenstein Visa for Greenland Passport Holder residing in Cook Islands and many more. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Gulab jamun
I saw your comment here, and just stopped by to note that in Gulab jamuns, the "balls" themselves have no sugar content at all. The sweetness is due to the sugar syrup they are soaked in. Thought you'd enjoy this trivia. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 20:01, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back

 * Welcome back, the place just wasn't the same without you. --kelapstick (talk) 15:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Bacon news
I am aware of your penchant for bacon. I thought this might amuse you. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:24, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The comments below the story (which many seem to believe is fake?) are a sight to behold. It seems that jibber-jabbering about insignificances and making bad jokes is a past time not limited to Wikipedia talk pages and notice boards... All those comments formed such a giant slab of fat and gristle I thought it was dinner time at the Mies von Doctor's house. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I never read the comments on those sorts of websites, and I'm sure plenty of the images (and videos) are faked; nevertheless, they are mostly funny. To my mind, bacon is just about one of the best things on planet Earth - no doubt the downfall of many a would-be vegetarian! -- Scjessey (talk) 17:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Bacon wrapped gulab jamun
Chicken fried?

Time for a very long vacation. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually had some Indian food last night. What are those shiny reddish pretzel sweets called? I'm not a fan of it or gulab jamun fan myself, but I like the idea of eating sweets topped with gold and silver leaf. I topped my meal off with some sort of cashew raisin ice cream. But I'm still on a pho and Filipino dough bomb filled with pork and egg kick. Drmies is working on finding out the name of the latter for me... I'm also looking forward to persimmon season, and I got some good cherries at the Korean grocer (as well as some strange foods that are freaking out the person who shares my fridge). I need a guide though who can answer all my questions when I go to these stores. So many interesting things that I've never tried. Aren't the joys of working on Wikipedia like a vacation? ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As for shocking Korean food, just ask me with pictures or description.:)--Caspian blue 17:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You've got yourself a deal! They were selling fresh ume for 8 bucks a pound which seemed expensive when the owner told me it's not eaten but made into a kind of plum wine? Is that correct? Seems to me like a great expense and effort when there's two buck chuck over at Trader Joe's. I got some seasoned dried squid (shredded I would say) with little sesame seeds in it and some sort of dried mini crab snack with red pepper. There was a lot of seafood and pickled things for sale. But I'm just a simple kid. You'll have to invite me over for dinner. I get some rice gruel type soups there too. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What are those giant whitish carrot like vegetables (not daikon though, a bit darker in color and longer)? Some kind of radish I suppose? How would you recommend I use it? And they were selling bunches of some kind of herb time thing I think it was called soemthing like stonecrop. Looked like it's maybe a soup ingredient? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. Yes, that would be expensive but the fruit is too sour to eat as it is. However, that is a good to make "mesilju" (plum wine) or other plum juice or plum pickles. Those are very good for health and yummy. As for the dried squid, you got it as a banchan (small side dish), or it is good with alcoholic beverages. Well, your supermarket seems to have a lot of Korean foods.--Caspian blue 17:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 2. You mean File:Rzodkiew2Rzodkiewki.jpg or lotus root?--Caspian blue 17:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 3. seogi? --Caspian blue


 * I was about to make List of Vietnamese ingredients from Category:Vietnamese ingredients, but I guess I'm gonna create list of Korean ingredients too for non-Koreans who don't know what is edible for them. :)--Caspian blue 17:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I'll try to get a photo for anything that needs it if I can help in that way... Lots of Korean in Torrance, California and the Korean Bell of Friendship is nearby. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Among these images, which one is the mysterious see creature that you did not want to try in Seoul?
 * Sea cucumber (File:Korea-Sea cucumber-Haesam hoe-01.jpg)
 * Urechis unicinctus (File:Korean sea worm.jpg, File:Korean.cuisine-Hoe-02.jpg, )


 * I would say it was a type of sea cucumber sold by a street vendor. I also got a couple of ears of boiled (steamed?) indian corn, at least that's what I would call it) yesterday. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Squid snack
Is the dried squid that you're having, similar to any of these? The first one is a spicy and sweet, but unspicy version exists with sesame seeds. Have a nice meal. --Caspian blue 18:09, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I have confused you. I bought four different squid things. One is a package of "hot roasted squid" (the middle picture). I also got fresh (or at least I hope it was fresh) boiled squid served sliced with tangy red sauce. And then I got a couple packs of seasoned and unseasoned dried (shredded) squid. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, you're a squid monster! ;) --Caspian blue 18:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's good stuff and cheap. The little ones are the best, fried or in spaghetti with red sauce, especially the pieces with the tentacles. :) I just tried the dried seasoned squid. It's sweet and salty. Definitely seemed like a good food to eat while drinking. Is there white and yellow (sweet corn we call it) in Korea? The maize was very good. Firmer chewy kernels than the usual corn we eat here. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think American corns are very sweet with soft texture while Korean corn are a bit chewier. The mountainous Gangwon Province is known for such corns.--Caspian blue 18:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, that is what I said earlier as a variant of ojingeochae bokkeum (literally means "stir-fried dried shredded squid"), the first image in the gallery. That is the unspicy version of the first image. That is eaten as a banchan or anju (dish) (like Spanish tapas).--Caspian blue 19:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Also on my menu today were fresh blackberries, mandarin oranges and Bánh In Nhân sầu riêng (Vietnamese sweet rice flour and Durian cake). I didn't want to leave anything out!

Edits on my page
Somewhere I left Wikipedia logged in for 30 days and someone else has made edits on my page under my name and who knows where else. They've not done much as far as vandalism just changed a few things on my page. Daniel Christensen (talk) 20:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

To do
Update bacon mania to note others predicting end and competing Seattle paper reaction. , ... ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

California's the best state in my opinion (:-- The Legendary   Sky Attacker  06:16, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Re: Removal of article sources
I'll let Tarc know of the situation. I posted on that talk page to keep the discussion on that there, and I'll keep an eye on it. Wizardman 02:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Kadhai and posola
No idea about posola. Kadhai is the Hindi equivalent of wok and an article already exists with the name Karahi. Kadhai paneer, kadhai chicken etc need not necessarily be cooked in a wok; they can be cooked in a pressure cooker base or any other deep utensil. In my mother tongue Malayalam, kadhai is called Cheena chatti. This links talks about wok. Paalappoo (talk) 14:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. I merged. Thanks for the feedback. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Shark finning and Buddha Jumps Over the Wall
Hello, at Talk:Buddha Jumps Over the Wall I have attempted to summarize in a few words views you expressed at Talk:Buddha Jumps Over the Wall. Please refactor or confirm if my summary is consistent with your views. Thank you, Bongo  matic  23:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Notification
I am requesting that Arbcomm unban me from Ayn Rand-related mainspace. You can see and comment on my request here. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:26, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Stegt Flæsk
I hooked up Stegt Flæsk, it's not great but it is something for now, feel free to improve. --kelapstick (talk) 16:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw that. They used to not like quotes in hooks. Working in something along the lines of it being one of Denmark's most popular dishes might be cool. Or that stegt flaesk is "a dish from Denmark, a country known for it's pig dishes and pastries?". Would have to check the source to make sure the wording was right. It's the BBC sport one. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit conflicts... don'tcha love 'em? :) Lady of Shalott 19:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * No worries. Sorry about that. Thanks for your help. I'm off it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Bacon possibilities
I ran across this blog at the LA Times and thought you might be interested. I can definitely see some possibilities for articles, like Bio-Blend Fuels (makes biofuel from pig fat), Bacon chips, Bacon bath salts, Nickel Diner (sells the Maple-bacon doughnut), Bacon ice cream, Bacon martini, and expansions, like Rumaki. Shubinator (talk) 20:17, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nickel Diner source--kelapstick (talk) 20:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Put them up on the board! You know I was kidding about your copy-edit of Drmies comment that you mentioned on the BC2009 talk page right? That was after I got raked over the coals for fixing spelling on an article talk page... ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, I knew you were kidding, I found it more amusing that I got a warning template for fixing a misheard song lyric on a talk page. My favorite misheard song lyric...Slow Waltzing Walter, The Fire Engine Guy.  How did you like the variant of the maple bacon donut?  Sounds pretty awesome eh?  With a picture of that on the DYK we may surpass the bacon explosion record, I still think that you should take the maple out, unless all the sources are about maple.  I added the bacon donut picture to this thread, so we can see when it is up without having to check the commons all the time.  This challenge is coming along nicely.--kelapstick (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Where do I put them? Shubinator (talk) 20:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Under the Important subjects that do not have articles section at User:ChildofMidnight/Baconchallenge2009. --kelapstick (talk) 20:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, done. There was something about Bacon vodka in the blog too; maybe we can combine with Bacon martini to make Bacon alcoholic drinks or something like that. Shubinator (talk) 20:40, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

MASH AfDs
Please explain on each AfD you vote keep at WHY each episode is individually notable, wtih sources, please. thank you. ThuranX (talk) 04:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The overmilk
'''This was an article that was created not so long ago. Thought it might take your fancy.'''

The Almighty Overmilk
"God is a great cosmic force of milk, he protect and guide us all. Those against the overmilk needs to be punished! ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY OVERMILK!" *Taken from "The prophecies of the Overmilk" p 23*. The so called "scientists" and the "religions" are lying to us all! They tell us stories of "Big bang" and "Jesus"... none of those are real! Jesus was actually a woman blessed by the overmilk. He gave her holy milk, and she walked around jerusalem, builing up a church of milk. She blessed 8 men and gave them the title of "High inquisitors of Milk". But one of the followers couldnt handle the power and his greed consumed him. He betrayed "Jesus" and told the katholik church where they could find her. They crucified her and pierced her tits with a spear made of pure gold. The holy milk fell to the ground and shaked the world. All the inquisitors are now dead but their offspring are still left. I am the child of Roberth. Also called "The High Prophet". I´m spreading the word around the world. We must follow the overmilk! I am Christian, i am milkymoo... I AM HEALINGPOT! Blessed by the overmilk and his offsprings i travel around the world spreading the word of milk. We must stop the discusting waterchocolate and save this world from waters grasp. Follow me... AND WE WILL BE VICTORIUS!

ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY OVERMILK!

-- The Legendary   Sky Attacker  07:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, who deleted my shit? Milk Monkey (Monkey talk) 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Vanessa Woods
Did the digging you knew I would. Notability is a lock. I have asked the nom to consider withdrawing, and invite you to consider upping from weak to strong.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 05:13, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * She's cute. And she and I seem to have something in common in our work. I've been hanging out with a lot of Bonobos since my arrival on Wikipedia... ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You have plans to be near San Diego in July? I could get you front row at at the Tim & Eric live show the night before their AwesomeCon 2009.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 05:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Schmidty I'm still trying to work out my plans for tomorrow. :) I'm supposed to go to a wedding in July. But we should hang out in LA sometime if you're up for it. I try to hit the Saturday night gallery openings once in a while and there's a Culver artwalk May 30. Or you can invite me to the massive Hollywood hills pool parties you rock out at. I'll bring coke. Do you want regular or diet? ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well... I'm in the OC, not Hollywood. Quieter down here. But anything is within realm of possibility. Had you been at the LA Artwalk last April, you might have seen me being artistic in a gallery space, or if you're actively involved in the arts, you might have seen me in at Santa Monica's Track 16 Gallery in January 2008 or read this LA2Day cover story... or even read this Eye Spy LA artcle about my 2005 art piece at Cabaret Voltaire. I do get some strange press... sometimes as much for acting as modeling.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 06:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Over 3,000 Google news hits for Clifton's Cafeteria. Over 650 book hits. Gonna be filling this up and turning it loose with no worry about any AfD.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 06:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't beat Clifton's for jello and pie served on trays cafeteria style with those red tinted plastic drinking cups. Very historic. I'm happy to see it's going to get an article. Then you can do the Ivy, although I'm sort of biased against it. Where are you in the OC? Or is it top secret? I've been to Long Beach, Belmont Shores, and Seal Beach a bit. I've only passed through anything south of there, but I need to visit one of my bros down at Chapman University. Nice photo of you engaged in artistic endeavors up at Bergamot Station. I was up there and saw an art show about a frozen chicken that was bought, given a funeral and buried in an LA cemetery and then exhumed and examined. Interesting stuff that art. They have a lot of fancy paper on sale there too. FYI. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Saturday evening, May 15, there will be a screening at the Dodge Film School at Chapman of a film I was in... called Mounting... a surreal story of a taxidermist and his plans to capture an errant horse. My role was supportive of the oddness, but that's all I can share without giving it away. :)) If you're in the neighborhood, stop on in.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Regarding the Eye Spy story, I think of you as more of an angel than the devil. But the LA2Day story seemed on target. You make a handsome King and looked quite dignified holding your longsword. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:12, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The project that was written up in LA2Day was awesome. I sat there holding my sword for 6 hours as 5,000 art patrons strolled through to study the art (my lordly pose included - chuckle). The only sour face among the thousands was when Matt Dillon was dragged through by his escort. It was obvious by watching him that he did not want to be at an art show. And when he was pulled past me and happened to glance down, the look of surprise on his face was absolutely priceless.   Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Catfish John
I'm not sure that I did fix your fix - my "...and that, children, ..." edit summary was directed at me ;-) I'd forgotten a space between a link and the following word. If I fixed your fix in the process, though, I'll cheerfully take the credit for it!

Cheers, This flag once was redpropagandadeeds 19:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You fixed it. I had messed up who wrote it after misreading a ref. When I went back to fix it you had already done so. Good job. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

vandalism
Hey, can we go back to topless women on the beach please? Drmies (talk) 04:36, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's okay with me if you revert back. And I'll be interested to see what kind of case you make for encyclopedic value during the inevitable ANI discussion. But you certainly have my support if you need it. We need to raise awareness of the importance of suncreen any way we can. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

It has begun....
I do not expect to turn THIS loose until its notability is undeniable though repeated references in reliable sources going back years. Any help is most welcome.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 20:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What does this have to do with bacon?--kelapstick (talk) 20:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you ever had their BLT, you'd never ask that question. :))  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 00:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know about bacon, but I'm confident they have meatloaf. And gravy. Here's a photo page 96 . But that's not the one that's still open. It's a weird place and I have no idea how it's still in business. That's LA for you. I have extra boxes if you need them. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * We're good, we made two trips and we are pretty well done. I just have to finish packing the garage.  Unfortunately I have not been able to find the Aleve....hopefully I can tonight.--kelapstick (talk) 21:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Shameless thankspam
Commented out (didn't remove) graphic message with HTML formatting that that disturbs formatting and readability of later posts. Bongo matic  00:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey Bongo. How are you? Are you BBQing this weekend?  Have fun.  :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:NPA
This edit has nothing to do with the article content, everything to do with your commentary on one editor's behavior (comment on content, not contributor) and is a personal attack. If you have an issue, take it to DR or ArbCom. I suggest you refactor or strike your comment above as it was made in the wrong place and will disrupt the article talkpage. Even if you make this type of comment in a proper venue, trim back the ad hominum as is not helpful. thanks, --guyzero | talk 00:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I refactored. I had posted my comment in the wrong spot. Thanks.
 * I was responding to the attacks made by Bigtimepeace where he tells an editor he's been harassing and threatening that he is "lucky he has lasted this long here." This behavior from an Admin against a long term contributor who edits in good faith is despicable and disgusting. If as Bigtimepeace says of himself, he's finding it "nearly impossible to continue to assume good faith" he needs to work in other areas.
 * He made a point of bragging about how liberal he is on the Obama page, and I've watched him go after editors he disagrees with for quite a while now. It's inappropriate and it needs to stop. The Obama arbcom has gone on for months with no assistance and no help coming, but assistance from impartial and competent Admins would certainly be welcome. Meanwhile an abusive admin is misusing their tools to threaten editors over content disputes and continues to behave in a manner that is unacceptable. I will continue to remind them that they need to shape up. Cheers.
 * He's also making very POV and borderline inappropriate comments stating that: "USA Today is not very well regarded as a newspaper, and indeed has not been basically since its inception." ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * When you refactored, you moved your comment but not the responses that were made to your comment which breaks the talkpage threading ...
 * The discussion does not belong on that talkpage. It belongs at ANI or Arbcom or somewhere else where behavior discussion is appropriate. I understand that you feel the need to "remind them that they need to shape up", but do it in the right venues. If you have a valid point to make, it is lost amidst the disruption that is created by posting it to the wrong forum. thanks, --guyzero | talk 02:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops. I didn't really know what to do with the response to my comment from that editor so I just left it alone. It doesn't have anything to do with the article and doesn't seem appropriate, it's another in a long line of personal attacks. But no one seems to want to do anything as long as the months long O-arb process is going on. I didn't want to remove it/ delete it, but I'm happy to move it. I didn't do so because that editor has a history of making accusations against me, so I thought I'd just let it be.
 * As far as my comment not belonging on the article talk page, that seems a strange accusation when there's an Admin issuing threats, mean spirited accusations, and inappropriate comments. All my comment did was point them out and suggest that the discussion should focus on content. I also engaged the editor in discussion on their talk page. If BTP removes his comment, I'm certainly happy to remove mine (or someone else is most welcome to do it for me). But the statements I quoted above, should not be allowed to go uncommented on, particularly when these inappropriate comments and threats are being issued by an admin who thinks they are mediating. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, for multiple things.
And you have a good weekend too. Grundle2600 (talk) 05:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

More DYK Challenges
After the Bacon Challenge, someone's suggested the Countering Systemic Bias of Independence Day Coverage Challenge. Not as catchy, but possibly as "quirky". Wondered if you'd spotted it? I'm off to check out your talk page's talk page... Bigger digger (talk) 09:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I checked it out. Looks like an excellent idea. Let me know if there's a project page developed so I can add it to my watchlist. I'll try to contribute something. I noticed this morning a lot of festivals need articles too. Thanks for the note. ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Re: Memorials to contributions by the living
Hey, ChildofMidnight. I wanted to thank you for leaving this message for me. It is, perhaps, the most heartwarming comment anyone has written to me on this project. You've further brightened an already great day. Thank you! :) لenna  vecia  17:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I wanted to post this just now: " Discourteous, High handed, Escalates disputes, Won't listen to criticism, Ownership of project, Reinterperets policy to suit own ends, Feels it's enough to sit in judgement, but not to improve. The power of the block button will be too hard to resist and we'll have respected editors blocked for disagreements." (slightly refactored for focus and clarity).
 * We can't say we weren't warned!!! The "smells like fish" thread header seems a bit... troubling.
 * As I haven't been in any major trouble now for almost 48 hours, I'm going to see if I can set some records!!! And I'm hoping to at least double the supports for my next RfA in a couple months... ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:10, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

BBQ? I wish.
Nope, I'm not doing any of those things. The semester just ended, and I'm preparing for the summer term. Since I'm an employee of your education system I don't get paid over the summer unless I teach summer class, so there you are. Vacation is for the rich. What are you doing? Drmies (talk) 17:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Really? My my wife was a teacher (when we lived in a country that she was allowed to work in), she got paid for the summer when she was full time (they took her salary and averaged it over 12 months rather than 10), but not when she was on contract (substitute teaching).  I was offered a job teaching college once, they would pay me over the summer too, too bad it was in Northern Saskatchewan, and the enrollment was too low...d'oh!--kelapstick (talk) 17:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Me? I'm vacationing by the beach, of course, and enjoying my wealth. Thanks for asking!
 * I hope they have good AC down there, it can get mighty hot, especially if there's no breeze.
 * And I agree with Kelapstick. I've never heard of a teacher not getting paid over the summer. I think you're making shit up again. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I will be vacationing in Hawaii this August...It should be a cool 90°, nice time to escape the 110°!--kelapstick (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hawaii!!! Awesome. Make sure to send Doc a photo. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The three exclamation points after the two "i"s look pretty awesome. We should have a good time, 10 days at a condo on Maui.  Unfortunately the ferry to Oahu shut down so we are island-locked, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But I would have liked to see Pearl Harbor and the USS Arizona memorial.  --kelapstick (talk) 17:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

thanks
I was quite surprised when that link on my talk page for Our Lady of Darkness turned blue. Do you recommend the book? DGG (talk) 04:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting Article
'It was tagged for speedy deletion. But I thought you might find it a good read.'

Addison Duncan is a great man. A man that once drove to Baltimore from Texas twice in 6 months, towing a car with a U-Haul. He used to eat meat, now he doesn't. He has experimented with men in college, and decided he liked the taco better. He once made me eat a prickly pear without force, a feat unto itself. He looks Jewish, but he is not. Lastly, he is in no way related to the owners of Dunkin' Donuts, so don't friend him on facebook thinking you are going to be getting free pastries.

-- The Legendary   Sky Attacker  05:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems like it was off to a good start. ;) If he WAS related to the owners of Dunkin Donut and gave away free pastries that would be even better. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Your spelling fix
You spoiled my joke. :-) SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 06:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Slim! Long time no see. Did I really mess up a joke? I'm not getting it?  I just went to revert the spelling fix I let loose, but I couldn't figure out what the joke was. Does this make me a loser?
 * Seriously, I want to know what the joke is, especially if it's a good one. I thought people just confuse the two words so I decided to take a stand. But it was an intentional joke? Hmmm. Promoting misspellings of that kind could almost be construed as vandalism worthy of a 3 hour block... This issue seems worthy of an extended discussion at ANI or AN, or maybe an RFC or something. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:09, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nevermind I get it now. Most subtle humor is lost on me. Maybe you know a good knock-knock joke? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:12, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My jokes are never any good, so don't worry about not getting it. Everyone will just think I can't spell. :-) SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 07:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The only good joke I know is this: "I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming like the passengers in the back of his car." :-D SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 07:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Afd OpenCart
I thought, I should notify you I have nominated OpenCart for deletion.--Jamie Shaw (talk) 08:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Our Lady of Darkness‎
Setting yourself up as the creator of an article about a novel that you admit you haven't even read is perhaps not the best way to establish your chops as a useful contributor to Wikipedia. Deor (talk) 05:37, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The joys of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit! I'm counting on you to verify and clean up the article contents as needed.  As I moved it, it's not quite true that I set myself up as the article creator. Have a great weekend. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * CoM doesn't need to "establish" his chops as a useful contributor&mdash;he's done that several thousands of edits ago. Bongo  matic  06:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Bongo fails to notice that most of those "edits" a.k.a. "tweaks", were fixes of my own misspellings. So if you divide by 7 you'll get a truer figure for my contributions. And then when you look at the subject matter I've been working on, well... let's just say there's a lot of room for improvement. But if Bongo is willing to mentor me, I'm willing to continue frustrating him by refusing to properly use the cite template. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I was unaware that we were only permitted to write about subjects we knew about, kind of defeats the whole learning aspect.--kelapstick (talk) 15:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I consider myself to be all knowing. So I haven't come across any limitations on what I can edit. You should see the work I've done on physics and math topics! When in doubt, make it up as you go along and hope for the best. See new math and global climate change. ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Article suggestion
CoM, I know you like quirky article topics...well, here´s something I just came across that might be article-worthy if you can find enough coverage. There´s a new website called pope2you.net, which apparently is like facebook but for the Pope...I can´t read much spanish, but this article might have some information (it´s how I heard about this). --r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 19:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems like it would be good to mention the Pope's arrival on the interweb in his article and perhaps the more generalized pope article. Thanks for thinking of me! Gracias. I had had had had had had had had been waiting for the outcome of other important discussions!!! :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Clifton's Cafeteria
I wish to have you take one last look through the article, as I feel it is decent enough to go live today. I apreciate the inspiration, encouragement, and the terrific assist. I also think it fair to submit several DYKs for this one article: There are many more DYKs available for this article. Additional suggestions are most welcome. I do not know how many submissions are acceptable at one time for one article, but they'd all have to be submitted with the next few days.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 22:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Did you know that Clifton's Cafeteria is the oldest cafeteria in Los Angeles, California?
 * 2) Did you know that Clifton's Cafeteria is the largest public cafeteria in the world?
 * 3) Did you know that Clifford Clinton, founder of Clifton's Cafeteria created the name by combining the first half of "Clifford" and the last half of "Clinton" to produce the name "Clifton's"?
 * 4) Did you know that the existing Clifton's Cafeteria, was once known as Clifton's Golden Rule because patrons were obliged to pay only what they felt was fair?
 * 5) Did you know that Clifton's Cafeteria in Los Angeles, California, known originally as Clifton's Golden Rule, changed its name in 1939 to Clifton's Brookdale after a redecoration inspired by the Brookdale Lodge?
 * 6) Did you know that Clifford Clinton founder of Clifton's Cafeteria, fed over 10,000 people for free during a 90-day period during the Great Depression?
 * 7) Did you know that Clifton's Cafeteria, still advertsises and honors their 79-year-old motto "Dine Free Unless Delighted"?
 * 8) Did you kbow that Clifton's Cafeteria founder Clifford Clinton made a point to never turn anyone away, even if they had no money, seeking to average only a half-cent profit per customer?
 * 9) Did you know the original Clifton's Cafeteria location of Clifton's Pacific Seas was visited by Jack Kerouac and written of in his book On The Road?
 * Its gone live!... as you can tell by all those redlinbks having turned blue. :) Thank you very much for the inspiration for this article... you can now take it off your "to do list". I acknowledged you as the inspiration in the DYK submission.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

This just got sent to me and Bongomatic:

The Full Armor of God Broadcast
Can you please help me understand what would make the sources more reliable? Nobody seems to be able to tell me, other than that it needs to be listed on Factiva, but I don't see that as a requirement in the policy. Ivanhoe610fa (talk) 02:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.Ivanhoe610fa (talk) 03:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

YES, but many are audio files. There have been some written interviews, but ussually on University blogs and such that are no longer on file. I can look into finding them. But there are interviews with WLRY's Mornign show, Pass the Salt w/ Coach Dave Daubenmire, Anvil & the Hammer Radio, Weathered Steel (WITR), The Cross Stream Radio, WTGO, WJCU and Malone University. I do not think that they are archived on those perticular sites anymore, but there are copies of them that can be linked. I will get right on that! Will that help?? Am I right, according to WP:RS "However, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable third-party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable source. Like text sources, media sources must be produced by a reliable third-party and be properly cited. Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist. It is useful but by no means necessary for the archived copy to be accessible via the internet." this should apply correct?? Ivanhoe610fa (talk) 16:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

WLRY, Pass the Salt (WLRY) and WJCU refernces added How does this look? Better?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ivanhoe610fa/sandbox/The_Full_Armor_of_God#Show_content Please keep in mind that refernces to radio station program schedules confimr they air the show, not just that it exisits. Secondly that radio stations rarely ever archive syndicated programs. Thus archived episodes are stored on the show's own site, but as per WP:S "Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist. It is useful but by no means necessary for the archived copy to be accessible via the internet." I assert therefore that the audio sourses listed on this article display notability in that they confirm that notable guest have been on the show, even though they are hosted by the program's own server, the fact that WP:RS Clearly states "It is useful but by no means necessary for the archived copy to be accessible via the internet." make that kind of a mute arguement. What say ye?? Ivanhoe610fa (talk) 04:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon posting here despite repeated requests to avoid my talk page
If this editor whose improper actions and POV pushing are well documented at the Obama arbitration continues to post here despite REPEATED requests to stop, please note that he has a history of harassing me and posting false accusations as well as making numerous frivolous ANI reports against me. I've asked him repeatedly to discuss article content on article talk pages rather than troll here, but he's continued to go looking for trouble. Wikipedia's guidelines are clear and this kind of abuse should not be tolerated. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Look, if you're going to make personal attacks about me on your talk page, where you are being warned against edit warring, then don't delete the responses. You're disrupting the good faith attempts to deal with your edits.  Wikidemon (talk) 21:32, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is Wikidemon's fifth post here today. Four of them were made after I pointed out to him that his diffs were to two different and unrelated bits of content and asked him to stop posting here . My post is in his talk page history since he immediately deleted it calling it nonsense.
 * He's made numerous other posts in the last couple hours trying to canvass various admins to take action against me, despite my pointing out to him that the diffs he posted are to two totally unrelated bits of content. Knowingly continuing to make false accusations and personal attacks is a violation of policy. The diffs are clear, one is regarding a budget issue and the other enhanced interogation techniques.
 * And so it goes. Some day a fair minded Admin might actually make him cease the abuse. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * He's now up to 12 or so posts. It's frustrating to deal with this type of abuse. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:31, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Just ignore the provocation and calm down
You're as much clumsy at defending yourself as me. Why don't bother answering to Wikidemon, or defend yourself at this time? Just add diffs to show the alleged harassment, personal attacks, and POV pushing to the ArbCom case.--Caspian blue 23:46, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Calm is my middle name.
 * I don't have time to keep track of all the abuse. Nor is he the only one. If I kept track of all the diffs where these jokers distort Wikipedia's policies or violate their spirit I wouldn't have any time to edit articles. Dealing with vandalism already takes up too much of my time.
 * I saw that big root again and I tried to remember what the sign said it is, but I forgot. At least I think it was the same root. It wasn't quite as big. They sell very different sized taro roots at different stores too, which is interesting to me. I guess it depends on the supplier or whatever. But I'm going to work on finding out what that root is next time I go to the store. My fridge is full now, and I still have dried squid to finish, so it may be a while. I'll try to get some photos too... ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought "of" was your middle name. At first hearing, "ChildofMidnight" has a more sonorous ring, but I'll try to get used to thinking of you as "ChildCalmMidnight". Bongo  matic  02:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you know my name isn't ChildofMidnight C. Johnson? ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

When the rules changed
Your history is wrong. The 'rules' were changed for all the 2008 presidential candidates in late 2007, before anyone knew who the nominees would be or who would win the election. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States presidential elections/Archive1 for how the controversy/criticism articles and sections were merged out for 16 different candidates. And the one that provoked the most discussion and talk page battling was not for Obama, but Rudy Giuliani. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link. The first paragraphs show that the criticism article for Obama had already been gotten rid of by that point and that the only discussion was whether the other political figures should have them. I'm not sure what you think this proves. Criticism articles were okay, except for Obama? And then once he was elected other existing articles of criticism were also gotten rid of for former presidents because the obvious double standard was too much to bear? Just look at when the G. W. Bush criticism article deleted (March if I recall). But the broader point is that we are expected to abide by the NPOV policy and to include notable controversies. I am open on how we do that. But if we fail to do so or censor content that a majority finds objectionable, then that is a real problem. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Take a look at Public image of Mitt Romney as opposed to Public image of Barack Obama. Quite a difference I would say. Laughable? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Mitt Romney articles were badly skewed by anti-Mitt editors during the campaign. It was a fight just to get all the anti-Mormon junk out of his main article.  I did do some work getting some of the skewing out of Governorship of Mitt Romney, but I ducked getting into the middle of the Mitt-Mormon edit wars.  It's on my mental someday-to-do list to go over all the Mitt articles, especially if he runs in 2012.  I did write the Ann Romney article, which I think is comprehensive and fair.  Wasted Time R (talk) 02:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, well take a look at the George W. Bush or John McCain coverage compared to that of Barack Obama. How do we get editors to abide by our NPOV policies so that notable criticisms and controversies are included for all political figures? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec)It proves that the policy was not Obama-specific, and that the main editor in extending the policy to all the candidates was someone who wasn't working on the Obama article (me). Indeed, the discussion wasn't framed in terms of Obama at all (some of his controversies hadn't really hit the mainstream yet, such as Wright and Ayers; what focus there was, was on Rezko). The front-runners at the time were Hillary and Rudy, both of whom had very long controversies pages (if you dig through redirect histories you can probably still find them). I was the one who dismantled and disbursed both of them (with getting a consensus to do so most difficult in the Giuliani case, as WP is full of Rudy-haters), in addition to eliminating many of the others, as you can see from that link I gave you. But I was able to do it, and WP is much the better for it. Think of how real biographies of politicians look; do you ever see a separate chapter just called "Criticism" or "Controversies"? No, such material is integrated into the main narrative wherever it belongs. That way, you get the proper context for when things happened, who did what, why people were upset, and so forth. That's what we try to do here. Agreed that this policy was not pro-actively extended to all the other politician articles in WP; that was more than the election editors could take on, and my hope was that the trend would catch on by osmosis. I'm glad that the G. W. Bush criticism article is finally gone, although yes it took too long. But this is the best way to proceed. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I definitely appreciate your taking the time discuss the issues collegially with me. The level of incivility on the Obama article pages has been disgusting and so far Arbcom and Admins have refused to address it.
 * As far as: do you ever see a separate chapter just called "Criticism" or "Controversies"? YES!!! There are whole books of controversies and criticisms. So the question is how best to include them. You've suggested integrating them. That's a nice idea, but good luck trying to include them without even a section within our articles. And you get shooed from article to article and quoted various policies by wikilawyers misrepresenting policies (I would list them but I don't want to encourage this behavior). My favorite is using wp:Not News to object to issues reported in reliable news sources.
 * I'm not a political radical, but I think it's very important that a vareity of notable perspectives included and made accesible to our readers. That is not the case currently. So Wikipedia is being censored and those with differing views are harassed mercilessly. If you have suggestions for dealing with the situation I am open to them and I'm happy to provide specific examples or suggestions or ideas as I've done many times. But without a section or an article, all it takes is a few editors to stick together and they can crush any attempt to include or point to the content that is supposed to be included. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've read a half-dozen mainstream biographies of Hillary, and they all proceed chronologically. When they get to her time in college, they discuss her party switch and the senior thesis. When they get to her time in Arkansas, they discuss cattle futures and the start of Whitewater. When they get to First Lady, they discuss co-presidents and the healthcare plan and travel office and FBI files and seances with Eleanor Roosevelt and everything else. They don't have one chapter near the end that coalesces all these items outside of their chronological and biographical context. That's what I'm talking about. Same with John McCain, the Timberg and Alexander biographies of him proceed the same way. Our Hillary and McCain articles are basically miniatured versions of those collected mainstream biographies. The "whole books of controversies and criticisms" you refer to are attack books, like Madame Hillary: The Dark Road to the White House or The Real McCain: Why Conservatives Don't Trust Him and Why Independents Shouldn't. These books are generally written for propaganda purposes and should not serve as models for us to follow. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, well following your example, a reader learns about the scandals and controversies and criticisms that Hillary has been involved with. How would this happen on Wikipedia when those issues aren't included in the Barack Obama article and no clear links are provided? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm no Obama article expert (I like to keep whatever sanity I have left here), but looking now, the main Obama article has a reference and link to Tony Rezko, which has much more on that affair, and a reference and link to the Jeremiah Wright controversy article, which has a long treatment of that. I think there should be a second reference to Wright in the campaign section, it's a major part of Obama's story how he handled that, the race speech, etc.  There's no reference to Ayers, which I know has caused endless battles in the past, but which doesn't bother me much (I think the influence of Ayers on Obama is near zero, which is certainly not the case with Wright).  The presidential section is on the skimpy side; writing history as it happens is hard.  But basically, the Obama article is going to be a near-impossible environment to work in for the rest of his time in office, just as the GWB article was.  That's why I've largely avoided both of them.  Wasted Time R (talk) 02:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually there is no clear link to the Jeremiah Wright controversy. The link is from something like "controversial comments". So there's no indication Obama was involved in a controversy at all. The entire issue is summarized by simply saying Obama resigned after Wright made controversial comments. And even this is a rather innacurate summary of the events, I would say. There was a standing by Rev. Wright and asserting he was like family inbetween after all. And mention of Wright was removed all together by our "editors" during election time. (I'm told I can't refer to anyone as a censor even when editors engage in censorship.) This lasted until an outside source wrote about how biased our coverage is and how editors trying to add material on controversies and criticisms on Obama are treated here.

The Rezko bit was also altered so as to minimize the connection and even now it gives no indication that there is more to the issue or controversy. It suggests Rezko's problems "had nothing to do with Obama". I don't care what side your on, that's a POV assertion that no one knows. We should be presenting the facts. Even now there's little indication that Rezko was fundraising over a long period of time and an important contributor throughout Obama's political career. They toured and bought their properties at the same time did they not? I mean that seems significant whether we think it's proper or improper. And I'm not saying these things make Obama a bad person/ president or not, but shouldn't readers be the ones to decide? Shouldn't we present the facts? Is it notable that Cheney and officials from the G Dub administration have criticized the current Guantanamo and torture/ enhanced interrogation policies? Where would a reader know to look for that? Where is it linked to from the Obama article? How about the criticisms from Paul Krugman? Is it worth noting that major policies are being enacted and that they are controversial? How would a reader learn about this? ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Two different kinds of things here. Regarding Gitmo or interrogation policy or economic policy, of course people are criticizing Obama on these.  By definition, every non-trivial stance on an issue a politician takes is opposed.  Enumerating all such opposition will blow up the size of every article, to no useful end.  Better that there be a link to the Gitmo article or to an article on stimulus spending or whatever, that can go further in depth about the issue.  In other words, a BLP is not the place to present issue advocacy either for or against.  What might be biographically significant for Obama is not Cheney's criticism on Gitmo (which is the standard argument from the other side for its existence and role), but that Obama has (temporarily, at least) lost the support of his own party on closing Gitmo.  Now regarding scandals and ethical controversies and the like (Rezko and Wright), these do have to be included.  The current Wright reference is "Obama resigned from Trinity during the Presidential campaign after controversial statements made by Rev. Jeremiah Wright became public."  I think if someone wants to find out what it was that Wright said, it's pretty clear where to link.  As for Rezko, I never really followed that whole thing so I can't say whether the Obama article's current treatment of it is appropriate or not.  Wasted Time R (talk) 03:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Gitmo and interrogation dispute is being removed from the Presidency article, not the biography. As far as Wright, there's no indication that Obama was involved in the controversy at all. That's misleading. Readers should be informed that there was an issue and they should be able to read about it (with a clear link). Unless a reader already knows about it, in which case they're not being informed much, they won't learn anything new from the Obama article and are left with the false impression that Wright said something controversial and Obama resigned. That's innacurate. So not only are we not including notable history, but we're rewriting it. And as far as the "there's not room" issue, why is there room for all the fluff? Every foreign leader whose hand Obama shook, every bill he was involved with that makes him look good (whether it ever passed or not) is included. It's a PR puff piece that we should be embarassed about and that we need to fix. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Friendly suggestion
I've noticed that you have chosen to make a number of controversial edits on Barack Obama-related articles today: I've further noticed that you have done so without first seeking to build a consensus for these changes. In fact, it appears that you eschewed any prior talk page discussion, choosing instead to use edit summaries and reversions to explain your actions. May I respectfully suggest that you would be wise to seek consensus before such edits, especially given the fact that there is a probation on all Obama-related articles, not to mention an ongoing ArbCom investigation into same. I hope you will accept this friendly suggestion in the good faith intended. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Presidency of Barack Obama
 * Barack Obama
 * Public image of Barack Obama
 * Thanks for your friendly suggestion. As my edits have been non-controversial (grammar fixes, removing redundancies, improving wording) there shouldn't be a problem. If for some reason an editor reverts I am happy to discuss with them on the article discussion page why redundancies and grammar errors don't belong in articles. I'd also like to request that we continue to discuss this on the relevant talk pages. Thanks! ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Since this was a personal suggestion, it would be inappropriate for me to have posted it in an article talk page. Also, I am unclear as to what you mean by "non-controversial", since your edits included controversially adding comments by Dick Cheney and controversially removing substantial chunks of text. The fact that you chose to restore your edits after they were reverted, without talk page discussion, should have been a clear indicator of their controversial nature. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, I didn't add that content. Some other editor did. I saw that it was removed when I was going through my watchlist and I restored it. Obviously the dispute over interrogations and Guantanamo Bay is worth including in the encyclopedia. As I suggested, please discuss these issues on article talk pages rather than here. Thanks! ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously it is worth mentioning, but obviously not where you were trying to put it. And regardless of who first added the information, you restored it despite an obvious consensus against it and no talk page discussion. You were responsible for the other controversial edits (not some other editor), and you didn't discuss them either. And like I said, it would be inappropriate for me to use an article talk page to give a personal message to another user. Messages like this are the primary purpose for user talk pages, obviously. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * See, we agree. It is obviously worth mentioning. So if it needed to be moved or clarified in some way, that should have been done instead of removing it wholesale. That's why I reverted. As this is a discussion of article content issues, and given your history of incivility and other inappropriate behavior, I would prefer they be discussed on article talk pages rather than here. If you want to bring my attention to an article issue you can notify me of the discussion with a link, but PLEASE try and refrain from unnecessary postings here. Thanks! ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

NPOV
I have responded to you here. —Preceding undated comment added 05:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC) by DKqwerty.


 * I have responded to you here. DKqwerty (talk) 05:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
For the verbal encouragement... — BQZip01 — talk 16:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Why Dot Moore is relevant
Dot Moore is relevant to this issue because she happened to be Ms. Hope's main competition within the local media market. I decided to recommend it for deletion to see what would happen, and interestingly, one of the people who is debating the notability of the Connie Bea Hope article proceeded to remove the deletion notice while addressing my justification for recommending deletion. My contention is, if Moore deserves notation, so does hope. Also, I saw that you created the Payton article. It wouldn't hurt to mention that she was the aunt of Hank Aaron (as per the obituary, I think I had linked it as a source)

Other than that, hope you are having a wonderful day and I wish you well. For me, it's coming down to a sense of sort of "mid-sized city" pride you could say, because this would not be an issue if we were citing the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Los Angeles times or even the New Orleans Times-Picayune, that one being interesting because, as I had pointed out, Mobile's media market is almost the size of New Orleans (and pretty much is if you have a station that covers it and reaches Biloxi) Genovese12345 (talk) 19:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

hmmm
I'm surprised by this — Ched :  ? 19:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought it would be hard to surprise you at this point! :) We keep getting these arguments supporting candidates who don't want the tools, have never been involved in or dealt with disputes. So how do we know that understand what it's like to deal Wikilawyering or other types of abusive editors who obstruct? How do we know how they deal with disputes? Will they have empathy for editors who DO edit contentious articles and deal with disputes all the time? I don't think these are unreasonable questions. 50-2, it looks like the hope for the bests have a big advantage at this point anyway.
 * How have you been by the Chedmeister? When is your RfA nom?  I have a lot of questions I want to ask... :) Have a good one. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lol ... almost every single day I am surprised at WP. That's what keeps it so fun!  re:disputes... I just never think of an admin. as being responsible for any particular area of WP .. be it dispute resolution, XfD, AIV, or whatever.  I figure we all play to our strengths.  Your question certainly has validity, and I vow to go back and read.  I guess I was surprised to see you oppose someone given the invalid opposes in your own RfA.  As far as Chedmeister's RfA ... really hasn't come up, other than in a passing comment.  My personality likely won't be one that self-noms.  I'm good .. had a nice trip from PA to AL in the US lately, very nice.  Have made a few mistakes with BLP sorting and all .. but for the most part .. life is good.  I hope it's good for you too. ;) — Ched :  ?  20:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If I didn't think my support might be toxic I would nom you, Bongo, Drmies, and K-Schtick. Where's S Marshall when I need him??? Speaking of which... I also need MQS and Ikip's help at AfD. How do I send up a bat signal? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would be interested in seeing an RfA for a candidate that you nominated. It would make for an interesting read.  I would expect that the people of Wikipedia are able to put aside their differences and !vote for a candidate based on their own merits, rather than hang the candidate based on guilt by association, however I would not be surprised if you came up in one or two of the questions.  I can see it now:
 * "Would you have supported CoMs RfA?"
 * If you needed a co-nominator for Mies, Dr. Bongo, Ched or even MqS (provided they were willing), let me know. As for me, my opinion is if my RfA were to fail based solely on who nominated me rather than on my merits, I would not want to be an administrator, Cheers and happy Memorial Day.  --kelapstick (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hahahaha that was my approach too. I got three supports. :) But if it had been left open long I'm sure I could have gotten well into the high single digits... I forgot to mention Werespielcheqers (sp?) too. I think he's a great editor who maintains and even keel.
 * I may seem like a glutton for pain and self-immolation, but I don't encourage these behaviors in others. If there was a way to improve important political articles while avoiding conflict and the drama and intrigue of being made a target by editors who refuse to abide by our policies, I would love to know what it is.
 * That being said, I think it's probably best (safest?) to follow the procedures and keep a low profile as much as is possible. If someone chooses to engage in difficulties and challenges that exist either before or after getting the bit, good on them, but trying to resolve conflicts and taking on thorny issues is a fast train to Oppose votes as many a candidate (Bwilkins comes to mind) can testify. Thus the Admins willing to take on challenges are few and far between, and instead we get stealth candidates and automoton like robots who have never been involved in a dispute.
 * I don't see how editors who haven't engaged in contentious issues are qualified or experienced enough to deal with some of the key Administrative rolls. But it's hard to find anyone who deals with contentious fare and can still pass RfA. Even Admins avoid dealing with problems (they might want to run for higher office some day). So I say good on Elonka and Durova for being willing to step up. Even where we disagree with them they deserve our highest respect and regard for being willing to try and resolve problems in a fair and reasonable way. But they have certainly taken heat for it and it's a problem because every grudge counts against you if you ever try to make something of youreslf, whether it be Admin, bureaucrat, high priest, and Jimboidal ambassador to one of the micronations. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I like your last edit summary. Bongo  matic  02:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

←impressive ;) — Ched :  ? 21:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm eagerly awaiting your candidacy. Accept already. I have three pages of questions and a year's supply of Bacon and egg pies at the ready. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahh-Haa .. now you know how I felt, well, at least up until it got kinda yucky. Actually, I think Pedro is looking at the possibility, and he mentioned maybe sometime in June.  I told him I'd be more than willing if he thought it could help the community, so it may come sooner than I thought.  Actually, I didn't think anyone would take it seriously until I had about a year in, but the issue is on the table, so we'll see where it goes from here. I'll definitely be doing some serious study work! ;) — Ched :  ?  01:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
Smallman12q (talk) 21:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Smallman12q (talk) 21:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you just enjoy the pain?
Good luck with Puebla F.C.. will try to engage anon on their talk page... I have one prediction what the outcome there will be... Asking for help at AN, as suggested was a little bit less than no help so can I pass the baton on to you?! How's things with Mr Obama? People still not interested in a balanced story? I heard he used to like toy cars, but I can't see that mentioned anywhere in the article. Oh, and I'm off to spy on your AfDs, see if I agree with you or not. And then I'll write about bacon ice cream... Bigger digger (talk) 22:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm becoming quite on expert on what passes for football in foreign lands. Just yesterday I was working on the chicken wing tackle.
 * I happened upon the responses to your request for assitance at AN. They didn't seem very encouraging, but then it is a holiday, at least where I am.
 * The Obama coverage is rocking on. The joys of collaborating with the many good faith editors who are eager to ensure that a variety of notable perspectives are included (per WP:NPOV) is truly heart warming. If something is added that they don't agree with they always try to fix it rather than just object and delete it wholesale. Participating in the collegial editing environment there is a fantastic experience that I recommend to everyone, especially friends and family.
 * As far as the odd tidbit, I'm all for including them. Not in the main article of course, but someone suggested height and weight and other details and I say go for it. It's at least as relevant as the 489th article on a Pokemon character. :) I'm surviving at AfD more or less. Canvassing, begging, pleading, whining, whinging, and bribery are working wonders. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, the chicken wing. Useful on students, probably not so good on professional athletes... I took the liberty of expanding it a bit, is it going for a DYK? I was disappointed not to find a video or photo of it. What's youtube for it not for showing slo-mo replays of agonising pain on the sports field??
 * I've successfully stalked you at AfD, generally agree, but not on the one that's probably most important, sorry! And I think I'll steer clear of any controversial statements in Obama articles, but thanks for the advice... Bigger digger (talk) 00:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If someone was involved in a television cooking program on a local NYC station for decades and they had an obit in the NY Times would there be any question about their notability? And in my opinion this cooking show in Mobile, Alabama, when there were only two channels even in existence there, is more significant than half the big city garbage anyway. It's got race issues, television history, culinary happenings, and I want to watch it! Oh well. You Brits! Maybe if she had a show on chips, donner kebabs and bacon buttys you'd feel different... ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And as far as controversial edits, who would have thought that a sentence noting Republican and Conservative opposition would be controversial? Do people really think those on the political right like Obama?  Seriously?  Or that all of a sudden opposition, criticisms and controversies aren't notable for this particular  president as they have been for all the others? Seems wrong. I don't like censorship or ignorance, and I'm not going to have any part of encouraging it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Donor meat, chips and cheese (What?!! No article?!) is the way forward after a few drinks to really maximise calorie intake, but I don't know if I'd want to watch or listen to a program on it. I guess the NY-based broadcasters meet WP:GNG if not WP:BIO so wp treats them as more notable. That's maybe fair enough, more people hear/read/see them. At the end of the day, I'm having to go in search of sources for major African musicians who just don't get contemporary internet-searchable English-language coverage, so your Mobile problems are small fry! Bigger digger (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Donor meat" doesn't sound good to me. Although my recent work on a miniature pig article (will be live soon) suggests there is life saving potential from porcine animal "donors"! (I've also seen it written that bacon is a hangover cure, so there are broad medical implications.) But I'm not sure what exactly "donor meat" involves, and it has a Soylent Green type of ring to it that's troubling me... ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Round Peak
Hi, in that area of the southern Appalachians a lot of states touch one another and are right near one another. Mount Airy, North Carolina is in northernmost North Carolina while nearby Galax, Virginia (where the style is very similar) is in southernmost Virginia. The "greater Round Peak" area probably includes both cities as well as the surrounding towns in both states, or at least that's my understanding of it. Badagnani (talk) 03:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Just got this from Flippen's Internet guru and MySpace page manager:

Badagnani (talk) 04:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Gentleman Jack
Let's keep at it and get a bourbon DYK here. Nice for Genovese also. Drmies (talk) 05:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Jackpot
Bacon Vodka Law type! snype? 06:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

it makes sense .. bacon does go well with potatoes! cheers, --guyzero | talk 08:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Please add to User:ChildofMidnight/Baconchallenge2009. The challenge should be going live in 7 hours... So there's plenty of time. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Understood...
ChildofMidnight, thanks for the note on my talk page. I've left you a reply there. Cheers. — Cactus Writer |   needles  08:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

T.Madhavan
Yes, I have to add a few more links. The link I had given in the talk page is to an article in Economic Times about gold price volatility study the professor had conducted. Paalappoo (talk) 08:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you pl check the links I have added? Paalappoo (talk) 18:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Prof.Madhavan is a professor of statistics, data analysis, forecasting etc. He is well known for his teaching style and knowledge. He has not taught in any institute other than IIM A. Let me try to get more sources. Paalappoo (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, his works have been published. I will try to get more info about those. He has co-authored a couple of books too. But I dont have any info about those too. :( Paalappoo (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Production and Quantitative Methods area" is the name of the department the prof works in. In IIM A, usage of "area" is common in most department names. Forecasting, data analysis (using regression, correlation, moving average) etc are technically statistical methods. Those are found as chapters in statistics text books.


 * I am not able to locate any links to his other works or discussions about his works as I am thru a heavily firewalled network.


 * BTW, climatic variables are part of time series. Seasonal adjustment and trend estimation are the techniques used. I know a bit of statistics but nothing about climate. Paalappoo (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Social Security Index
The Social Security Index is a database of the SSA that catalogs the name of every person who has died who was ever on Social Security. It lists birth/death dates, where the benefits were last received, what the name of the person was, and their social security number. It was the only way to get the valid dates for Payton --Genovese12345 (talk) 16:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete
All content that I think is boring or that can be obtained from other sources. But keep both the articles that remain. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * O.k., drop those two articles, which have no reliable sources. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Climatic variables
I think they are discussed in weather forecasting and numerical weather prediction. Paalappoo (talk) 19:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Related topics, but I think climate variables and variability are something quite different. The statistical studies and methodologies involved are very interesting, particularly as the subject is involved in such major political topics. I think an encyclopedic article on the subject of the varaibles and variability that includes the scientific approaches involved would be very interesting. Global warming and climate change are buzz words that are polluted with partisanship and the fanatacism of ideologues (on both sides of the issue). I've added the topic to my to do list... But don't hold your breath. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:31, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe I can add what I know. I have learnt the techniques as part of statistics, just the manipulation and analysis of data. The same techniques are used in index and volatility predicitons in finance. :) Paalappoo (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Snake 'n' Bacon
Okay, I've deleted the page for you.  Spencer T♦ Nominate! 01:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

And in other pork news . ..
Did you ever read this classic ? Bongo matic  05:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Apparently porketarians are plotting the overthrow of the middle-classes. Bigger digger (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Or this current item? Bongo  matic  14:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Bacon mania
In checking something for an RfA, I noticed in the above page: At Bad Decisions bar in Fells Point people clamor for the "Bacon and Beer Happy Hours". The source states: "At Bad Decisions bar in Fells Point, people clamor for the Bacon and Beer Happy Hours". This sentence needs to be rewritten. I haven't checked the rest of the page, but since it was your work, could you go through an ensure that any sentences like this are paraphrased and do not contain phrases from the original articles? Thanks. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a direct quote. So I think it would be wrong to put it in quotation marks? The comma in the original text is ommitted and I put Bacon and Beer Happy Hours in quotation marks, which means that it's not a direct quote and has in fact been rewritten. As it's cited I'm not sure there's an issue, but if there's a policy that says different I'm happy to make whatever changes are necessary. I see your point that it's very similar to the original, but it's not a quotation of the original, and it's cited. Perhaps someone with more expertise than I have will weigh in? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The phrases duplication beyond what can be said as reasonable, so the line has to be rewritten. As I tell people, the ballpark is unique phrase of three words or more in a row. The "people clamor for" tipped me off as unusual language for an encyclopedia, which is why I picked up on it. Please just go through and rewrite the line and any others you noticed, and I will AGF that there are no other similar problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. I understand your concern. The wording is close enough that it's certainly a grey area if not an outright no no.
 * I didn't want to put something that wasn't a direct quotation in quotes, and apart from the word clamor, in my opinion, there didn't seem to be a lot research that could reasonably be construed as being plagarized. There's a location, the word "people" and "for", and the name of the event (which I did put in quotes). I considered putting clamor in quotation marks, but I thought that would violate MOS. When I change the word "clamor", I'm paraphrasing, but I'm also using what to some extent amounts to original research. I've seen people argue endlessly about what a source actually "said" so I guess that's why I'm sometimes reluctant to do aggressive rewording.
 * I've replaced clamor with popular, which I think hews close enough to the original meaning, while still being a reword, and I also changed the sentence order a bit. My understanding, and I've just reviewed wp:plagarism, is that the key is the amount and extent of the content used and the level of attribution used to attribute and recognize its origin. I think 3 words is a very strict interpretation, especially if it applies to words that aren't distinctive or meaningful in any way.
 * I've actually been meaning to rewrite the "end of" section as quite a lot of it is taken from one source. I used quotations and mentioned the paper itself as well as using citations, but it still needs a trim and some consolidation. I think I was sucked in by the fun wording of the statements!
 * Please let me know if you have any other concerns. Cheers. Thanks for your civility in discussing the issues you've raised. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's all your charm used up for the rest of the month... Bigger digger (talk) 22:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a lot of respect for Ottava. I've seen this editor take unpopular stands, raise some very good points in discussions, and I think they have a lot of integrity for doing so. I know from personal experience that it isn't always pleasant to be the nail that sticks up on Wikipedia.
 * I moved the article for you BD. I hope that's okay, you did give your permission, but I guess there was really no rush. You know what they say: exciting times call for excited actions. :) Won't be long now. Still time for one more bacon article? Hahhaha. I hope everyone involved had fun. It was nice that some people I hadn't worked with previously took part. :) The alliance that extends over the geographic and culinary pond between us and that bridges BLT (sandwich) and bacon butty, shouldn encourage us to work together and tackle common problems, like the need for more bacon article on Wikipedia.
 * Was it you who mentioned another "contest" of some sort for another area of articles? There was something mentioned on WT:DYK about it, but I can't remember what the topic area was. Has anything come of it?  I think I need a couple weeks (or days anyway) break, and then I'm ready for the next "Big Thing". Someone suggested a "best article on Wikipedia" contest on Jimbo's page, which immediately elicited a lot of support and some dramatic opposition to the idea of something that might cause drama. I'm a big supporter of dramatically opposing any dramatic changes or new ideas that could provoke drama. :) Have you heard about the Elvis/ peanut butter and banana/ bacon/ sandwich controversy? I'm trying to stoke the flames, but not much doing so far... ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ottava is an impressively busy editor and great contributor, I've seen the Ottava name everywhere. Fine about moving the article, I did invite anyone to, although I enjoyed the fact you moved it to the full name first, before moving it again to Seduced by Bacon - anything to keep the edit count ticking over ;-)
 * The BLT is well established over here, so we're practically neighbours. I might actually do the bacon ice cream article tomorrow, but don't hold your breath. And yes, over on WT:DYK there's mention of an International ID4 Challenge. Something along the lines of flagging up other countries' Independence Days on July 4, but there was some debate and it's kinda fizzled. They need someone inspiring, dynamic, charismatic, dogmatic, phlegmatic and useful in a tight situation. How about you? Do you know anyone suitable?!
 * Thanks for the rewrite. As I said, the key is the unique part. If I were to say, "President of the United States Barack Obama says", then that would obviously not count. :) The "clamor" definitely seemed like artistic flair taken by a columnist (not by a reporter, but there are few true reporters so its hard to tell) to spice up their description. I looked at your rewrite and had a simple suggestion (there was a redundancy). Try: "At Bad Decisions, a bar in Fells Point, Baltimore, the popular "Bacon and Beer Happy Hours" employs a unique menu devoted to creative bacon dishes and offers large bowls filled with bacon on the bar for customers." How does that sound? Ottava Rima (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Respectfully, this kind of hair splitting can be a problem when policies are overinterpreted and taken into effect too technically (beyond what they actually say). Your rewrite of the sentence suggests that the menu is unique and that the event is "popular", which is original research not actually stated in the article. The article says: The bacon scene simmers in Baltimore, too. At Bad Decisions bar in Fells Point, people clamor for the Bacon and Beer Happy Hours. The next one is set for April 14. Bar owner John Reusing infuses his whole menu with bacon - he's done bacon-wrapped plantains and cheesy bacon fries - and places big bowls of bacon on the bar. "At the last one, I went through 30 pounds of bacon in about two hours," he says."
 * I'm not sure which articles you work on, but on those I've worked on, people can be very technical about original research and about editors applying synthesizing what sources say. I think it's reasonable to infer that the event is popular. But even that can be disputed (just as you are disputing how many words it takes to amount to plagarism) and there's nothing in the source that says they serve a "unique" menu. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, and I'm very flexible on how the bit is worded, but you've rendered a strong oppose based on statements that are less closesly worded to their sources than this one, and as I think this discussion and editing process shows, judgement about appropriateness are subjective and some latitude needs to be granted. Anyone who objects to the way something is worded or attributed is welcome to modify it. It's clear that lifting a paragraph is plagarism. It's also clear that describing something in a way that isn't in the source can be problematic. This creates challenges and a need for balance. I would also like to point out that the bit we are discussing is much closer to the source than those you've identified as being problematic from another editor.
 * So my point to you is, when a source is cited, unless it is word for word preserved it shouldn't be quoted, and it shouldn't be altered meaningfully because that would be misattribution. Within these boundaries there is room for interpretation, but there is a popular saying that goes "Judge not lest ye be judged." ;) I agree with you that the original sentence I used was VERY close to the source I cited. I've tried to explain why that decision was made in this particular case. There's not that much content to work with, and simply changing order or using a synonym for a word does NOT actually eliminate plagarism. The citation attributes the statement and that's the source for it. I understand your understanding of how the policies apply is not identical to mine, but I hope you can recognize that we approach the issue with the same interest in quality sourcing and attribution. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Popular for people clamoring would not be OR per its definition - "a vehement expression of desire or dissatisfaction" with the context that it is favorable. Popular is a versatile word that can suggest a large crowd or a tiny crowd and still have popularity. Now, the "unique" part is the happy hour menu is unique to the rest of the menu, meaning, it is separate, which is suggested from the article (hence a "happy hour menu"). Obviously, the words can be switched out, and it is merely a suggestion to remove the redundancy. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

From a suggestion from Bongomatic...
The seed idea for this article was given me by Bongomatic three weeks ago. When I finally got to it earlier today, I was so caught up I had to keep chugging away ubtil I reached this point. Now I'm looking for input. User:MichaelQSchmidt/The Final Inch Any advice?  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 06:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I left you a couple notes in the text... What's on tap for this weekend? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Saw your notes. Sweet tweaks. The items you felt might be quotes are actually a condensation from several lengthy interviews of the diector. When she took 5 sentemces to say something, I took away the flowery language and hyperbole and made it as simple and factual as possible in one sentence. Since the iformation was her's, I had to attribute her as the source. Maybe I should add back all her verbiage and include it in quotes?  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 09:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll have another look. Maybe I can "tweak" in something about, The director said,". Not sure, they just seemed like opinions that needed clearer attribution. ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Just fixed my typos above. Sheesh. I need a new keyboard. And hey... got confirmation for the T&E stuff in July. 7/24 Live show in San Diego. 7/25 AwesomeCon picnic. 7/26 Live show in Anaheim. :)  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 18:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Further expanded and sourced. Neutralized POV. Removed weasel. Made nicer. Check again, please. Am thinking of going live and am even now considering a couple nice DYKs.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 20:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Have gone live and submitted a suitable DYK. Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 23:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

S Marshall for admin
Please see User_talk:S_Marshall. Drmies (talk) 17:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm always 3 or 4 steps ahead of you. And I've now scored in flag football on the beach two weeks in a row. See Shake 'N Bake for more information... Hey it's fun giving you a hard time about the article mix up. But I found the nom to be exceptionally well written otherwise. If K-Schtick can pass his RfA despite being associated with the monstrosities/ articles I've created, it is even more of a testament to what a great editor he is. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you want to do a formal co-nom? I think it would be a good idea if you are up for it. Hobit (talk) 22:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Be careful what you wish for. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Rare video footage of an early AfD review
A member of the Editorial Board explains his views to the audience

Note: this section has been completely rewritten since being listed by nom. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * ? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

S. Marshall
I intend to support this editor's candidacy should the nomination be accepted. I noticed this sentence in your recent co-nomination:
 * "I encourage everyone to support his candidacy for office at least once."

I know that you intend it to be in jest, but that sounds like another endorsement to employ socks and meats - something your own candidacy fell foul of as I recall. I recommend that you refactor that sentence so that this editor's RfA is not tainted. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand your concern and so I have modified my statement accordingly. See what you think. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The qualifier should be sufficient (it seems fine to me); however, if it was me I'd probably cut out the joke completely. Some people have had their sense of humor surgically removed and it is conceivable they could use your words against you in the future. It shouldn't do any harm to the RfA now though. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree a straight nom might be better. But I think it's a fair compromise. Those looking for ammunition to use against me will have no problem finding far stronger stuff than that bit, and I have to hope and trust that my bad jokes will not be held against the nominee. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That seems fine to me. Anyway, you could always cite this conversation if anyone gives you any crap about it. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

What'cha think?
Decent enough rescue? Any suggestions?  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 03:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I know there's a plot summary, but would you mind telling me what the movie is about in the introduction and the article body? Is it a love story? Is it about Memphis? That would help me out a lot. I can't speak for what others care about. WTFK? :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Read This. And better, Memphis Flyer, which more specifically says "Team Picture focuses on a few days (or perhaps weeks) in the life of a young man named Dave (played by Audley under his given name), who is caught between his ostensibly normal work and family life and his more bohemian home life. At the outset, Dave shows up for work at a Germantown sporting goods store, looking uncomfortable in khaki pants and a tucked-in baby-blue polo shirt and exchanging awkward conversation with his boss, a jocky and jocular man (played by local sportscaster Greg Gaston) who also happens to be his mother's boyfriend. Audley cuts from this scene to a shot of Dave at home and at ease — wearing cutoff shorts, a straw hat, and sunglasses, strumming an acoustic guitar and filling up a kiddie pool in the overgrown front yard of the Midtown house he shares with roommate Eric." I always wonder just what to use and what not.. how much is too much and how much is not enough.   Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Schmidty just tell me what the movie is about. Don't make me read stuff. :) Sorry. I'm a little sleepy. Do you want me to have a look? I think we can say:
 * The movie is about the life of a young man whose interactions at an ordinary job and with his family are a stark contrast to his bohemian home life with friends. Fitting into the khaki pants and shirt tucked in demands of a job, is an adjustment for a character apt to strum an acoustic guitar in cutoff shorts while wearing a straw hat by the backyard kiddie pool.
 * Voila!ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Beat ya to it. :)  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

your sock, sir?
Eh...care to explain this? Drmies (talk) 05:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You know I don't use language that mild. Isn't this a school night? The late hour and your educational duties leads me to wonder... Please remember that rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

homegrown is alright with me
Haha, look at the image I added for Seed swap. Drmies (talk) 20:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not looking. I'm too scared. I'm going to go put up the BC2009 hooks. After I'm done, would you have a look and do whatever clean up is required? Gracias! ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. Hey, I thought you'd appreciate that article, given your interest in communal things like potlachs. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I am a big fan of potlach, especially as it seems related to totem poles. I am also a fan of potlucks, a culinary event that cleary deserves its own monumental statuary. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Banh
Where are your photos and why did you get in trouble? Give me accent marks or I won't be able to make sense of what you're typing. Badagnani (talk) 05:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It may be time to make the final push
I don't know how these situations work, so I don't know how to evaluate how this goes. I know that it was relisted for "consensus" and as it stands now it looks like a split vote. However, in terms of contigency, how does the appeals process work if the unthinkable happens? I have read notability. This clearly satisfies it. So, how do we make said argument, or at least, get an extension on this. --Genovese12345 (talk) 20:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

And Now for Something Completely Different
We have some serious matters to discuss, the articles for Bacon Challenge 2009 not going up in the same update is both disappointing and anticlimactic. What is the incentive to actually participate if you are not going to have an entire bacon update. Nobody would notice that the challenge even occurred it just looks like a bunch of bacon articles got put up on DYK. Before the challenge started was there ever official opposition? I don't remember it. I guess silence doesn't mean acceptance. Hopefully we can get approval for national pig day next year or else I do not see the point in proceeding. But I suppose that the challenge was a success as we got 8+ articles about important subjects written and nominated, which was the goal. Also your dream about an article on turkey bacon is now realized. --kelapstick (talk) 05:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I proposed it and noted it on the DYK discussion page early on to try and get a feel for how it would be received. I was open about the challenge all along. There was no opposition expressed, but as you point out, silence does not equal consent. I'm sorry if I overpromised and underdelivered, but I did expect there to be some opposition, as there are always people resistant to innovations and the making of waves or actions that might make waves.


 * We do what we can. I think it was a very positive collaboration and I think it resulted in some outstanding and interesting articles. Many people have been made aware of the Challenge, and I think it sets a good example for similar initiatives. I know there are other competitions on Wikipedia regarding adding citations and such. Hopefully the challenge has a bright future, I don't see why it wouldn't.


 * I am not (yet) all powerful, but if I were I would certainly have complied with your expectations. I did group the hooks together on the DYK page where quite a few people saw them. I haven't been folowing the main page closely, but I hope a couple will make it on as photos and get some good attention. I tried to indicate that we would try to have them be together, but that there was no guarantee, but I don't really remember exactly what I said. Looking back I'm not even sure I mentioned the challenge on the Food and Drink talk page, did I?


 * Anyway, I was always waiting for someone to object or criticize. I think the response was really pretty positive all things considered, and even a Lady of Shallots was sucked in. It wasn't a mainspace project, so I think we have to take what we can get. Whether it will fly as an update on National Pig Day, I don't know. I expect there will be some objections to doing bacon articles on pig day for similar reasons to those for doing an all bacon update on any other day, as well as new objections. If you want to a have a pig project that might be different.


 * You got a lot of support K-stick! It's an interesting process. And you did quite a bit better than I did, despite my gentle nature and soft touch. So you must be doing something right. Check out the Shake 'n Bake Canadian ad. I added it to the article in your honor! ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't follow the machinations of DYK, but I did notice a posting at the Village Pump (policy?) about a discussion about themed DYKs in general. Apparently, there's some opposition to having any themes (such as for holidays or anything). It might be something you'd want to find and comment about if you feel strongly about having them. Lady <font color="#229922">of <font color="#0095c6">Shalott 06:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point. And the consensus was pretty strong from the experts, so I think we should conclude that themed updates, with a few exceptions, are frowned upon. Makin' bacon will have to be reward enough in and of itself. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:01, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Alas, we could not have our bacon and eat it too. I saw your comments at DYK, but like I said didn't see opposition until B-Day, could have been tunnel vision though.  I did notice that Dylan wanted to join in the fun, and didn't notice that BC09 had already passed (reinforces my earlier point about people not noticing).  That is too bad but on the bright side he will make an excellent addition to BC10.  He must be a super guy with great judgment as he named a day after me.  (you can consider this your official RfA thankspam) Thanks again for coming out and supporting my RfA, you probably read my justification etc. at Doc Mies' talk page.  I appreciate the discussions that you took part in both on and off the official page.  I appreciate all the effort and commentary.  On the bright side metals are up today so maybe I should get back to less important matters, such as building a mine.--kelapstick (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

RE:RFA
I don't really follow the RFA pages (I only pop in once in a while to double check content contribs), so I'm unsure what recent nom you may be referring to. In any case, one of the best ways to avoid copyright problems and the gnarly issue of "how much change is enough" when paraphrasing is just not to paraphrase altogether. That is, start the prose from scratch rather than using the source material's wording as a baseline and trying to reword things. It's a difficult thing to do, and takes practice and willpower to not take the lazier route. Internalize your source material, think about how you would construct the ideas/thoughts into prose, and go from there. It all comes down to practice, and in the end, after numerous iterations of this exercise, it helps writers find their own voice, too. WP:OR really shouldn't come into play as long as one understands the source material correctly. The ideas certainly originate from somewhere, but how these ideas are structured into prose should be a creative process. Original prose is different than original research.

Ideally, I'd love to see every admin candidate try his/her hand at writing an article (whether a brand new one or picking among the numerous ones that badly need a rewrite). The entire process, from research to the actual writing, gives candidates a comprehensive view of the encyclopedia-building process;after all, we're here to build first-rate content, and admins are here to facilitate this goal. Budding Journalist 05:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * That makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I know from personal experience that every word can be parsed if it isn't consistent with what the source says, so there is alse pressure to stay close to the sources and to avoid accusations of synth. But such is life, there's always a need for balance. I do think some latitude should be granted to cited material, as citations provide attribution and a clear indication of where something is from. Rewording and rewriting too much can also create problems of misattribution where content is NOT consistent with the source. But I agree that we must do our best to avoid plagarism. Thanks very much for sharing your insights. They are well considered. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed, I've encountered the problem of editors misrepresenting sources numerous times in my short career at Wikipedia. But in actuality, some of these cases arose when folks used the prose of the source material as a baseline and tried to futz around with various "synonyms" to accomplish a successful "paraphrase"; to me, it seemed like these editors didn't really understand the source material to begin with, which is the larger issue. Certainly, using original wording makes the challenge of matching the source material's ideas harder, but it is a skill necessary for any form of serious writing, and one vital to the building of an encyclopedia.
 * As an aside, on that RFA, I find it troubling that many editors seemed to brush off the other copyright concerns so readily. Copyright violations are a serious matter and are probably second only to BLP issues that can so thoroughly damage the reputation of Wikipedia. I'm glad Kelapstick recognized the seriousness of these concerns; I wish other editors would take a similar attitude. Budding Journalist 05:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If what's on that RfA's talk page are copyvios, and I see your point and agree they are somewhat borderline, I think many RfAs would fail under the same scrutiny. I have found that if I go looking for problems I often find them. We are all human. And if it isn't using too much from the source, it's something else. :) But I think your explanations and reasoning are sound. You would be a good candidate to clarify the policy. And I think no matter how it's written there will be a sizable grey area.ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Some of the examples are certainly borderline (which is one reason I advocate starting prose from scratch rather than trying to reword things to try to get it "paraphrased enough"). But taken holistically, and given the fact that they are from multiple articles, they are more troubling. Also, having just re-read the plagiarism guideline, I believe it's inadequate and confusing in it's current form. However, I'm not sure I have the time and energy to take on the Sisyphean task of substantially editing a guideline and gaining consensus. :) Maybe I'll just pen an essay instead... Budding Journalist 06:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's late in the evening here now. But I will say the process you describe of reading something, understanding it, and putting it into one's own words borders at least as much on issues of OR and synth, it seems to me, as taking content, attributing it with cites, and paraphrasing it or rephrasing approaches plagarism. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there are certainly pitfalls to avoid with both. However, I wouldn't say the risk with the former is original research so much as misrepresentation of the sources. Then again, that issue still rears its head when one tries to paraphrase/change wording. Budding Journalist 07:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

BC2009
I see that it's been over two weeks since anybody else has joined, but since I'm interested in participating (perhaps starting off with the Bacon maple doughnut article), I'd like to ask you this; can anybody, anybody at all, join? &rarr;  Dylan 620  (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 13:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Destill, my beating heart.
I bought some cheap vodka, but some great bacon and a granny smith apple. I was thinking about making apple-bacon vodka. Do you think that's too much? I wanted something for a bloody mary. Maybe I should make celery vodka. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 02:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you considered cheddar-infused vodka? I just made a comment on the talk page that suggestion some categories of vodka infusions and I confess cheese didn't even occur to me until now. Bongo  matic  02:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That is an excellent idea. I think I will go to the store and get several minijars. I will do one bacon, one cheddar, one celery, and one other, yet tbd. I'll snap a fabulous pic. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 03:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a feeling the cheese won't work very well (suggestively few references found in a number of reasonable Google searches, and those references were not encouraging). But if it does, you're on your way to a bacon-cheeseburger martini, which would really be something. Bongo  matic  03:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't trust the Internet for big decisions. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 03:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think slightly charred ground beef would probably infuse very well. As might onion. Let me know how the cheese comes out. Bongo  matic  04:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The batch I've been making in my tub is almost ready, and I haven't added bacon to it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone's stolen your idea... Still, they don't yet seem to be offering a bacon-cheeseburger martini, so there's still a gap in the market. Bigger digger (talk) 17:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Re:suggestion
Yours and Scjessey's findings and subsequent remedies were the hardest for me to see what needs to be handled and what does not, primarily for the reasons you state. That's why I put the block of you two in a separate finding, because other arbitrators might be thinking the same thing you are and will oppose it. As for whether some punishments seem harsher than others, with one getting a slap on the wrist, I looked through all the diffs and went by what they were doing, i didn't go in with any preconceived notions. As for article probation, I was unaware that no one was really using it during this time, I'll keep that in mind, since my votes may not remain the same as they are now, other arbitrators may make note of something I miss or interpreted wrongly. As for the templating, I'll separate that finding out because it is reaching a bit, as you said, and it's possible that that finding will fail. Wizardman 03:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of my userpage
I put that retired template on my page for the Hell of it a while ago to see if anyone would say or do anything about it because my page gets 100s of views when I make articles. No one has done anything I think I'll remove it; it's false of course but who cares? Is that suppossed to be taken seriously and really not put on for the Hell of it? Must not be too stirring; thousands of views have happened and no one has said a thing about it.

Also a while back someone edited one of my userboxes. They put NOT in the box that says this user is god (this user is NOT God); they titled the edit removed arrogance. lol Daniel Christensen (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I saw that you were retired. But lots of people seem to continue to work even after retirement these days. Times are tough. Maybe I'll put one on my userpage and see if anyone says anything. Wikipedia would probably throw a block party.


 * The "not" addition sounds like a reasonable edit as long as it was cited. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No, I was never retired. I just put it there to get a reaction because I thought it looked cool when I found it. Yeah, I think it would be funny if any admin put one on their userpage but kept contributing at a normal or increased rate. But yeah I never got a reaction,even as I kept pumping out articles. Daniel Christensen (talk) 02:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

DYK problem
Hello! there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath and respond there as soon as possible. --<font face="Bauhaus 93" color="black" size="3">Giants27 (  t  |  c  |  r  |  s  ) 21:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Would one of my amigos (or the Lady of Shallots) be so kind as to add categories to this article? Thanks! ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I added Category:March observances, but I don't think it falls under the Category:Pigs (about actual types of pigs) or Category:Pork, is it is more about the pig than the pork. Maybe Pigs, but with a * to bring it to the top as the rest are actual types of pigs.  Talk amongst yourselves.--kelapstick (talk) 22:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What about agriculture or something? Is a Lua (sp?) in any applicable categories? ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, luau is in Hawaiian culture, meals and Hawaiian words and phrases. Assuming that is what you meant.  Although there is the 2009 swine flu outbreak action against pigs in Category:Pigs so that may actually be appropriate.--kelapstick (talk) 22:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Steamed clams
I've been tied up with other matters, but I finally got around to thinking clearly about the questions you posted on my talk page.

The distinction between "steamed" and "steamer" clams quickly becomes confusing... I agree with your idea that the content about steamer clams (as a type of clam) in the steamed clams article should be merged into Soft-shell clam, and the steamed clams article should be repurposed as an article about preparing and eating steamed clams (i.e., focusing on steaming as a method of preparing this and other types of clams). I see that some good improvements have been made along these lines.

I'm relieved to see that the reference to the NY Times article "HEPATITIS TRACED TO STEAMED CLAMS; Physicians Find Cooking Not Sufficient to Kill Virus-- Frying Is Called Safe" has been removed. Unless someone has read the whole article, it's not much of a basis for a statement in an encyclopedia article. My reading of the free snippet from that article is that people are as likely to get hepatitis from eating steamed clams as from eating clams raw on the half shell. That's shocking, if true. If there is additional information on the health and safety aspects of steaming clams, it would be good to add it to the article. --Orlady (talk) 21:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * (moved to bottom so I don't forget to follow up... ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC))


 * I wish to note the hyperbolic headline carried by the NY Times about steamed clams. I agree with Orlady that it is a shocking assertion, and I'm confident that it's just as accurate as the rest of what's reported in that source. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The article (from the first paragraph&mdash;I'm too cheap to pay the four bucks) appears to report on what several doctors stated, but doesn't necessarily embrace the conclusion. Interestingly, the following day reported that "Shellfish as Cause Of Hepatitis Here Discounted by City". I think without understanding the overall sense of the article is likely to run afoul of WP:UNDUE. Bongo  matic  16:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not in the article any more so no problem with undue. I had reservations about putting it in originally. But that source is considered reliable by Wikipedia policy, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I agree we should be VERY careful about using anything [ that we haven't actually read&mdash; Bongo matic  16:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC) ] from that tabloid rag. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree with CoM about many things, but hope we can make friends about clams. The "Ipswich" steamed clams, with the big peelable necks, are very good with butter, and proper fried clams, with the crunchy stomachs, are good with tartar sauce.  ("Neck" and "Stomach" aren't necessarily anatomically correct here, but true clam fans will understand.)  And nobody could possibly object to clams browned with lots of crumbs, parsley, and garlic.  PhGustaf (talk) 15:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I'm leaning towards a separate article on steamers (the clam and the dish) per Orlady's suggestions, and sections in the steamed clams article to include the notable varieties and preparations. Bigger than bacon? No.  But surely we can dig up some good content on clams so they aren't shut out of the action. ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Boston, or Ipswitch, clams have distinctive necks with inedible sheathes. The routine was to put these creatures into a tub with fresh water and cornmeal in the hope that they would disgorge any disgusting stuff they'd et whilst feasting on the corn.  Boston clams are not, though, the same as the ones that show up in the Tadich Grill's cioppino, nor the ones sushi chefs have so much fun with. PhGustaf (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Bacon?
The mass of bacon-related articles you've written astounds me; I really didn't think there was that much to say. Barnstar from me if you can get anything about vegetarian bacon on the main page- I've not had bacon in a long time... J Milburn (talk) 21:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * CoM has had a dream of an article about fakon Since February. Although I tried, all I could get up to the main page was turkey bacon--close but no cigar. --kelapstick (talk) 22:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This comment seems to use a semicolon very appropriately, and I find it very decorative. Doc throws those things around willy-nilly. I'd like to see brackets be used more. Would that interfere with formatting on Wikipedia? ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of List of bacon dishes
I have nominated List of bacon dishes, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/List of bacon dishes. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Samuell Lift me up or put me down 22:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow. I didn't know that was there. Pending AfD survival I suggest formatting in the same manner as List of cakes.--kelapstick (talk) 23:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't like the country of origin column. Just leave it open for Casp to add photos and move along. Trouble maker. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The origin is nice to sort by, given the handy sortability that I gave it. --kelapstick (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't wait to see how you determine the country of origin for all those dishes. I think it would be better to mention the origin (when known) in the description section. Simplicity my friend, simplicity. Also, I would put the photo column after the dish name (per MOS). Lovely photos. Nice work young man. Have you had a look at the Canadian Shake 'n Bake ad yet? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Put the origin when known, I am reworking the images I have added, had them in the wrong column...doh.--kelapstick (talk) 17:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Spectrum Culture
Thanks for the response, could you do me a huge favor and check over the references. I've attempted to include independent sources, especially in the Franz Nicolay part. If they shouldn't be there, would you let me know or delete them.

Thanks a lot Joe hockey14 (talk) 04:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

You oughtta know better . ..
. . . than to make this kind of edit no matter how true. Bongo matic  04:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Seeing as CoM didn't make that edit, I am having trouble figuring out what brought you to their talk page.—  Dæ dαlus <sup style="color:green;">Contribs  05:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny. Don't make jokes though Bongo. They crucify you for that kind of thing here. Humor isn't quite as loathed as copy-editing, but it's close. My spelling corrections and asking an editor not to make personal attacks against me, to stop refactoring my comments, to focus on article content on article talk pages and to stay off my talk page are a large part of the Arbcom evidence that's being used against me. These are high crimes and incivilities! (edit conflictx2-see you are already causing trouble!) ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is ChildofMidnight a "they"? CoM, is your real name ChildrenofMidnight? Bongo  matic  05:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * p.s. I have taken to highlighting the offensive, refactoring beyond recognition nature of copy-editing in my edit summaries to make it easier for those supporting my community ban. Courteous. To a fault, baby. To a fault. Bongo  matic  05:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * When someone isn't sure of gender, using "their" is an easy out my amigo in crime. It could also be a reference to me and my army of socks.
 * What does "refactoring beyond recognition nature of copy-editing in my edit summaries" mean? Have you been drinking? First Doc and now you. I guess anything to numb the pain. How long do I have to wait before I can run for Admin again? ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm . . . not really the most elegant formulation. I meant that when I copy edit another editors talk page contributions (recently, "to" to "too"), I will use an edit summary like "refactored [x]'s comments to change the meaning" or something like that, just to make sure people know what I'm up to. Yeah, and I don't like "they" for singular. Almost always incredibly easy to avoid without resorting to gender-specific language (in this case "their talk page" → "this talk page" would have worked&mdash;no offence, Daedalus, I know it's accepted usage, just not by me). Bongo  matic  05:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Good points. But I think it did come off a bit harsh. But you do sober up fast young man. I can understand you just fine now. No response on my query though, I see. But I guess I need to wait a couple more weeks? What's shaking in Bongo's world? Anything exciting?  Where are you stationed these days? New page patrol? Or have they got you over at AfD? ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:26, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You can run any time, but after K'stick's ordeal, do you want to ever? I'm stationed mainly off-wiki for the time being, having actual work to do for a change. The perceived harshness was perhaps an unreasonably hard trout-slap, as prior to the referenced comment, I had made eight signed contributions to this talk page (unarchived), and had been mentioned an additional five times, so the question as to what brought me here seemed ill-conceived. Bongo  matic  05:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe Daedalus is simply outraged at the incomprehensible proposals made by arbcom to punish editors who have been confronted by a wall of incivility and grotesque neutral point of view violations by biased partisans (who get off with warnings) and wants to have my back and show his support. I can't blame anyone for wanting to come to my defense at this difficult time when censorship, bias, incivility, wikilawyering, intimidation, abuse of process, pov pushing, and halitosis are being embraced with both arms by our very own arbcom committee. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

If you get a minute
Can you upload and add these to turkey bacon, uncooked and cooked, unless you can find a better cooked one. --kelapstick (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. Alot to go throughKeithBeltham (talk) 05:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC) Appreciate it.


 * Minimalism is not really CoM's game. Did you get those pictures uploaded?  Do I have to do them?--kelapstick (talk) 23:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Important perspective
I'm sure you've seen it, but if not I think you'll appreciate this opinion. Some might say it is equivalent to WP:ILIKEIT, but I think of it, rather, as the vanguard of a new topic-specific guideline. Bongo matic  23:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

File copyright problem with File:Maja dessert.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:Maja dessert.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. (ESkog)(Talk) 04:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Bacon spam
To all members of the bacon cabal: Did you know that there is a theory that the Voynich manuscript might be the long lost Book of Bacon ?  Sp in ni ng  Spark  11:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 16:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

a new assignment
When all else fails, turn to CoM... Someone needs to have a look at List of wine-producing countries and the recent edits. Content was added with some questionable data (China), content was removed without edit summary... I don't know what's authoritative here and what's not, and it's not a good article to begin with. WikiProject Wine seems pretty stagnant, so I was hoping maybe you could mobilize the troops, now that the bacon rush is over. Later, Drmies (talk) 16:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't drink rotten fruit. How are you Doc? What's shaking? I was reading an old WSJ and saw a story about European refugees in the 1930s teaching at historically black colleges in the south and I thought of you. There's an exhibit on it (or was) in NYC. Interesting. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Today is a special day: happy Saint Boniface day! Drmies (talk) 16:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought it was Donut/ Doughnut day? . ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Woop! Not only is it the day for a Saint who lived round my way, but it's also doughnut day. A-M-A-Z-I-N-G. Bigger digger (talk) 20:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Bacon rolling papers
I just clicked on the source and it came up fine. It's just a link to the manufacturers page listing flavors. When I saw the deletion earlier I did a search on bacon rolling papers and a bunch of hits showed up. There is a wiki page on Juicy Jay's with some info. --Weetoddid (talk) 01:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The link works for me now. I don't know what was up. "Sizzling bacon" rolling papers? It's a strange world. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Log cabin
Have you see this? <font color="#ee3366">Lady <font color="#229922">of <font color="#0095c6">Shalott 02:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What would Abraham Lincoln say? I'm going to stick with Gingerbread houses. This may be the beginning of the end... This takes bacon too far. ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Joanna Pruess

 * Hmm. Didn't get one of these. Shows you how important big-whig editors like ChildofMidnight think the work of properly placing references in templates is. Ha! Drmies (talk) 18:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The complaint department is up the street. Thanks for supersizing the refs buddy! You the man. What's shaking this weekend? Sunny here. I need to get outside. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:11, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Beautiful here too. I've already mowed (part of) the lawn. Grilled a chicken yesterday--for today, it's endives (with ham and cheese). Oh, for lunch I had the best sandwich in the world: a BLT! on sourdough. And I'm trying to put the moves on Mrs. Drmies, but her phone rang (of course). Drmies (talk) 19:03, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Please revisit The Mandrake Root
I do not think "merge" is even worth a consideration. Your comments and suggestions toward further improvements will be welcome.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 06:34, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If the play were any good wouldn't they make it into a movie on the big screen? Or at least one of those fuddy duddy British tv shows? I don't really care for plays. And it sounds like the kind of thing they put on PBS for people like Doc who drink fermented grape juice. I thought my comments were pretty fair, really. I said "if" it's not independently notable it could be merged. You can't have everything Mikey. Plus the original was made in 1518. Isn't there a policy about things getting less notable after a while? It hardly seems topical and relevant any more. I did watch the end of Robocop in Spanish tonight. Pretty gruesome, but some interesting thematic elements. I wonder if anyone will bring it to the stage... When is Doc going to be done with our script? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Pehaps Mandrake Root needs to be disambiguated. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Fun
This was fun: Dahil Sa Iyo. Drmies (talk) 17:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You deserve some suman as a reward. Nice article. Good job. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

FYI
Thought you just might be interested in this. I don't know if you and Titch were close, but I know you have a heart as big as they come. It literally sent chills up and down my spine, and thought you may want to say hi. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 05:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Oddball!

 * I remembered! See Don't be a rubbernecker. This essay isn't at all pointed at you, but I thought you might be interested having recently penned the article. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 13:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for the barnstar. It seemed like a worthy subject for an article. It could probably be expanded. Cheers. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What are your thoughts on merging Gapers block into rubbernecking? I tucked a link in there but they might do better as a single article, yes? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 22:58, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey Xeno. I saw you added mention of Gapers block to the article on rubbernecking. I've never heard that term, I thought it was some kind of Britishism until I read the stub on it. A merge might be okay, but they are related and not the same thing, so I could see a case being made for keeping them separate (especially if there are reliable sources for gapers block. Are there? Also, I saw on the talk page that it should maybe be gaper's or gapers' block which seems correct to me....) I'm good either way.
 * Soon I'm going to be limited to one revert a week, it seems, because Arbcom sees fit to punish those who try to fix our Obama coverage with the multiple perspective that NPOV requires. :) So I'm going to have to get used to living with articles in all sorts of states that I don't think are appropriate as I won't be able to do much about it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no sources for the gaper's block, though I'm sure one could be found. which is why I thought it might better function as a short mention in rubbernecking. I agree one of the apostrophe versions is better. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk  01:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Britishism"... Eurgh, you can keep that word on your side of the pond along with winningest. Bigger digger (talk) 12:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, thank goodness it doesn't have an article, you'll have to go to winningest instead. Sadly rubber-necking is quite a popular pastime over here as well. Bigger digger (talk) 12:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Danger Mouse
I don't think a DAB is needed right now, although I question which one is the primary usage. There are only two and they hatnote each other right now. Unless there is a third Danger Mouse (could there be...).--kelapstick (talk) 18:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Re: Falsehoods
I'll make this short, since I can tell you're probably fed up with me by now. Hypothetically, sure I could change my votes, and I am thinking about changing on the templating finding, since we both agree it's a stretch. However, even if I were to do that, the consensus on the proposed decision so far seems clear. If the remedies against you were too harsh or the findings incorrect, they would not be passing, and if Wikidemon needed a heavier sanction, it would have been proposed by now. Obviously the Obama articles aren't perfect, but if this can stop the use of the talk page as a forum, prevent a future second case, and see where best to proceed. No proposed decision is gonna satisfy both parties, and it's rare to satisfy either party for that matter. I'm pretty much done speaking of the arbcom case for now, i've said and explained all I could. Wizardman 00:10, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And to note something I missed, your reverts on the block started at the end of May 6 and extended to the end of May 7, hence why you weren't seeing all reverts there. Wizardman  00:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Two edits in a 24 hour period and then a full 24 hours earlier I had also made two edits of the same content. There were dozens and dozens, if not more, edits inbetween. There was discussion on the talk page inbetween. And if you look at those edits in the context of how many edits I make on a day and on that particular day, it's absolutely 100% totally clear that I wasn't intending to edit war and that I wasn't attempting to win a conflict by reverting and that I wasnt' focused on that article, and that it wasn't an active dispute any longer.


 * What is clear is that Wikidemon was unhappy with my posting on the ACORN talk page, a totally separate article. And when he didn't get his way he said he was going to ANI . And after posting there he dug up these edits because he thought someone might go after me, even though it was on an unrelated article and didn't involve him at all, and he got lucky because the admins reacting didn't properly investigate. He's treating Wikipedia as a battleground, and so far you're rewarding him for it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As I've said before, I acknowledge that you do good article work elsewhere. An editing restriction and topic ban is not going to prevent you from working on the other types of article you usually work on. You keep saying I need to "get the evidence right", yet after looking through it again it seems fine to me. I'm certainly not rewarding wikidemon by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just not seeing the type of edit-warring in the evidence that other parties are guilty of. I've been patient with you, but I should need to re-re-read the evidence all over again (and i'd come up with the same conclusion anyway). What you want is either a truckload of sanctions on wikidemon, who you're in conflict with, or for you to be exonerated. I have no plans to do either. No further reply is necessary. Wizardman  20:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion review for List of the Tonight Show with Conan O'Brien episodes
An editor has asked for a deletion review of List of the Tonight Show with Conan O'Brien episodes. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. Tavix | <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#000000;"> Talk 15:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You wanna show me anywhere on the AfD where I said I didn't like the list? As you said, "Nom's reasoning and those of deleters are largely based on not liking it"  C T J F 8 3 Talk 17:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You indicated there were too many episodes. That's a not liking it rationale that isn't based in policy, in my opinion. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Please be more careful in the future, when assessing my thoughts. There is a difference between liking/not liking something, and proposing an article for deletion because it isn't encyclopedic.  C T J F 8 3 Talk 19:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Ass Kissing
Hah, the header worried me for a bit. That could work, and the notability for the phrase is certainly established. My main problem was with the suggestion that "swabian salute" was a neologism meaning "kiss my arse" - the validity of the "kiss my arse" was not in question. If that idea works, go with it :). Ironholds (talk) 19:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Leck mich im Arsch (phrase) or something? I think the Mozart work will always be more notable. Ironholds (talk) 19:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

RE: SPI
Sorry, was on wikibreak, didn't mean to never respond, as to the user you are concerned about, are there particular diffs you are concerned about?—  Dæ dαlus <sup style="color:green;">Contribs  21:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey Daed. Actually, my request wasn't about a problem editor at all. An editor was interested in some sort of SPI clerking (I can't remember the terminology). They had received an unhelpful reply from a clerk after expressing interest, and I thought you might know some other more helpful clerks who would be able to offer some direction. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tiptoety, for sure.—  Dæ dαlus <sup style="color:green;">Contribs  06:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll drop Tiptoety a note. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Bacon, egg and cheese sandwich
I got particularly excited when I saw Bacon, egg and cheese sandwich at DYK. Then got all worked up because the noms weren't part of the Bacon cabal... I see you've extended the hand of friendship to them at the AfD. I particularly enjoyed it's like saying Kleenex is notable, but tissue isn't and any argument that argues WP:CSB Keep referenced, and the first steps in countering systemic bias against food on WP. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC) is a winner in my book. I salute you sir! Bigger digger (talk) 13:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bacon, egg, and cheese work better in a tortilla than on bread. Is there a Breakfast burrito article yet?  (It comes up blue) PhGustaf (talk) 19:20, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Breakfast burrito is covered in Burrito (nicely with a targeted redirect to its own section which is always an elegant solution). Merging the BECS to breakfast sandwich, if it was done in a similar way, would probably fly. I suppose bacon, egg and cheese could also be its own topic incorporating the various applications. Or it could stay as a stand alone sandwich, but ham and sausage might feel spurned. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see there was quite the fuss about the Egg McMuffin there I see, I got confused the first time I ordered one in Nevada and it had ham ("Canadian Bacon") on it.--kelapstick (talk) 19:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Was it like getting change in Canadian coin at a toll booth? Do they have toll booths out where you are? Freaking loonies! I don't think I've ever had one. The fast food version seems kind of gross. Was it good? I've been impressed with Arby's food, so when they finish construction and reopen nearby I'll have to check it out (with bacon of course) there. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah we don't have toll booths here, gambling takes care of our roads. Even in Canada I never had to go over one (with the exception of the Confederation Bridge), although the 407 is a toll highway they just send you a bill, no need to stop.  What's wrong with dollar coins (or $2 coins for that matter)?  The US has been trying to implement them for years but doesn't have the stones to remove the bill from circulation, despite the enormous cost benefit (in Canada the average lifespan of a $2 bill was 1 year, a coin lasts +50).  I suppose what can be expected from the same outfit that doesn't even produce enough $2 bills to move their status from collector's item to currency?  We have an Arby's where we are now, but I haven't been since we went there, but they are awesome.  --kelapstick (talk) 20:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, if you want to try awesome breakfast sandwiches with bacon try the one from Tim Hortons, or the bagel BELT (bacon egg lettuce tomato), the two things I miss the most...--kelapstick (talk) 20:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What is Tim Hortons? Ha ha. Don't have them in LA as far as I can tell. Is it back to being a stand alone Canadian company now or is it still part of Wendy's? Coins of all sorts are fine as long as you don't get coins from foreign countries that you can't use and have to try passing off on someone else after the toll collector drops them on you. might not be as much of a problem now. Isn't it like one canadian dollar for 10 or 20 U.S. dollars? Who knew that unlimited gov't. spending wouldn't work out well... ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What happened was Ron Joyce sold Tim Hortons to Wendy's, but used the proceeds (~$600 million) to buy shares in Wendy's so he would be a majority stakeholder, ingenious isn't it. Reminds me of what Christian Bale did in Batman Begins.  I think today 1 USD = 1.09 CAD, but I could be wrong.  What happened with the toll booth, the collector mistake a loonie for one of your presidential dollars?  Another argument in favour of the Amero.--kelapstick (talk) 20:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Used to get a lot of Canadian quarters as change. And going through a toll booth you don't notice until later. I don't know if it still happens because we don't have tolls. Everything is free here. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Right, I had to go through two in LA on the way to Carlsbad (GPS took us the wrong way) when we went to Legoland. --kelapstick (talk) 20:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Those are just for tourists from Nevada. The evangelicals are passing out million dollar bills with Obama's visage on them. May come to pass soon the way things are going. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

<-- Wow, can we cite this conversation in off topic or off topic? Will these be red or blue? The suspense... Bigger digger (talk) 08:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, might have to AfD off topic? Is that a dicdef I see before me? Bigger digger (talk) 08:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This off topic discussion is disrupting my talk page. Please focus on topic discussions of off topics off of off topic threads that are on topic for my talk page. Alternatively, this may need discussion on my talk's talk page. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Universality of patriarchy
Please see my reply at Articles for deletion/Universality of patriarchy. Kaldari (talk) 18:58, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Posted another reply. Kaldari (talk) 16:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. - Thanks for pitching in at the patriarchy article. It needs all the help it can get :) Kaldari (talk) 16:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

lady of shallot
Sorry if my answer here seemed uncivil. I didn't quite understand what you were getting at and was trying to be funny, hoping it would stir you into telling me more. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You were perfectly civil in that conversation. I was referring to your statements responding to some of your critics. I know some of them are being aggressive, but you're an admin and you're expected to use restraint and to defuse situations rather than adding fuel to the fire.


 * Some of your comments seemed rude to me. Like the take a nap bit, for example. But I guess we all have different senses of humor, and I know from personal experience that people misunderstand things and take them out of context, which I'm not trying to do. But my bottom line feeling is that you are still holding tightly to the idea that you're right in the end. Which is fine, but if you're not understanding the concerns from editors who have been on the receiving end of aggressive block and who have had their block logs used against them, I think you would do well to consider their perspective.


 * Calling someone an ass isn't very civil, but neither is blocking someone when they're moaning on their own talk page, expressing frustrations, or just venting that they're pissed off. Know what I mean? Some of the bullshit that goes on here really sucks. And I'm afraid the lack of restraint and good judgment that I see from some admins is a real contributor to it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Greece-Crete Relations
Just got back. I didn't see anything unusual about bilateral relations. Maybe the debates dropped off my watchlist. Or maybe I wasn't watching the interesting ones.

After 10 days of careful research, I can report that the Cretans do not know how to make a Greek salad. No lettuce! Only tomatoes, olives and onions. They don't even break up the feta for you, just stick a slab of it on top and drench the whole thing with lemon oil, herbs and vinegar. Also, they don't know how to make fish & chips. All they do is throw a fish on the grill, head and tail, skin and bones, the works, brush it with lemon and oil, serve it up. The poor fish is staring at you, reproachfully, all through the meal, which tends to last quite a long time. And the chips are likely to be deep-fried zucchini or something like that, not potatoes at all. And white wine instead of Coke. No hamburgers, only roast lamb or goat stew. It was rough. But I may write an article about Lakki. Aymatth2 (talk) 01:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added Lakki to my watchlist and will be ready with the appropriate speedy deletion and AfD tags. That cite isn't a reliable source, and the photo on it could well have been doctored. I'm sure you're aware that we can't rely on your original research that this "town" exists. Unless the New York Times has written about it extensively I don't see why we would want to include it. Plus I was disappointed it was a geographic rather than a culinary subject. A very poor showing in all respects. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I added a couple of pictures. Nice place, but it takes strong nerves to drive down the side roads. Maybe I will do a culinary article too. Sardines on toast has a whole new meaning for me now. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

hey!
when you're done causing trouble, you can see that the conspiracy to remove Obama from everything on Wikipedia, including the Seven-layer salad, is working. What is this world coming to? Drmies (talk) 06:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess they didn't feel this particular linkage was beneficial. I'm encouraged by the scrutiny that important article is receiving.
 * You can rest assured that Wizardman and Wikidemon will continue their vigilance in censoring and distorting our Obama coverage wherever necessary so it includes only the most positive aspects. Anyone trying to provide balance or alternative perspectives will be blocked. We're not allowed to have any criticism of Obama anywhere on Wikipedia, and for the exceptions where some controversy is allowed to exist, it can't be linked to. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As they say in Dutch, overdrijven is ook een vak! Drmies (talk) 15:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I love that Flowanda removed the Obama phrase before removing the other names. How's that bias against people-who-enjoy-the-seven-layer-salad-but-aren't-POTUS going? Bigger digger (talk) 08:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's nothing compared the attack on glorified rice. When will the cover-ups end? The truth must be told. We shall overcome...ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Patriarchy
The last section of the patriarchy article is about whether or not any forms of social organization other than patriarchy have existed. Obviously, it could use some expansion, but the subject matter of this section is basically "universality of patriarchy". In fact, you could reasonably rename that section to "Universality of patriarchy" if you wanted and merge in the 2 relevant sentences from Universality of patriarchy. Kaldari (talk) 17:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I mentioned it with a wikilink and modified that section per my whims. :) I'm not in favor of a merge, but if others feel strongly about it then they can streamroll me, as often happens here. :) Might makes right, or something. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Vietnamese
User:DHN is the most knowledgeable Vietnamese(-American) editor. Badagnani (talk) 19:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Ched's RFA
Nice comment. I just wanted to reward gracious and still humorous writing. tedder (talk) 21:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconded. You win at RFA. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 22:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How did I miss this section...I agree, most awesome, but I think the phrase is Baptism by fire, unless you were going for the secular approach (or is it non-secular, I always forget). Have you seen what is going on at Requests for comment/Paid editing?  You want drama....--kelapstick (talk) 21:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the nice comments.
 * This one's for you K-stick.
 * And to reply to your ramblings, I find the baptism by fire thing confusing. A baptism is usually in water. So then if it's by fire, that makes sense to me and I see flames. But then it means fire as in bullets? There are too many mixed metaphors. And I was trying to stay with the forged thing by going with fire in that sense.
 * My sense of snark/ humor was less appreciated in the ANI thread on whether an Admin calling an editor an asshole is okay. But you can't win them all!
 * Secular is without religion. That's what those immoral Dutch heathens are into. And if you read their page you'lll see that even their alma mater has been caught giving away textbooks to athletes. Shocking! :)
 * I'm not sure on the Canadians. I'm still waiting to get their opinion of the Shake 'n' Bake Canadian advertisement video I added to that article... I guess they're spiritual more than religious.


 * In my doubt I can't believe 
 * Like a wave tossed where the wind blows 
 * Tears of faith temper my soul 
 * Just another trial by fire 
 * Just another trial by fire 
 * How appropriate that the phrase is used as a song and album title for this ballad loving band. Ched Rocks! ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh and Kelapstick you might enjoy this RfA. More my style. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Best RfA...EVER.--kelapstick (talk) 23:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I know the !vote doesn't look good at the moment for "Credit", but I think everyone should encourage this new user to continue with his/her contributions to the 'pedia. ;) — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 03:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Hosting
By all means, feel free to do that. I only volunteered for this because it seemed necessary and no one else was apparently willing to do so. (Minor note, to preserve GFDL you need to actually move it rather than cut and paste). JoshuaZ (talk) 02:22, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course that's ok. And if I have an issue with your draft, I could if I always wanted to fork it and we could present two separate drafts for DRV. (I doubt I'll do that however. If someone else is going to take time to work on this article then my presence is much less needed). JoshuaZ (talk) 02:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)