User talk:Eric Corbett/Archives/2013/July

And now for something completely different
Do you and your English talk page stalkers still drink your tea and coffee from fine bone china? I'm particularly fond of Roy Kirkham which, to my surprise, is only a few decades old and has no article. Moreover, I am having great difficulty finding any reliable sources to write them up--I thought they were old and well-established. Any of you able to help out? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * What a ridiculous question! Do Mr Corbett's close friends appear the type of people who would be drinking out of plastic beakers? While I'm sure Mr Corbett ownes a humerous mug or two, we are certainly not drinking out of Mr Kirkham's rather twee floral designs either. Personally, I always think it's only decent to drink one's coffee from Royal Worcester post luncheon and from Sèvres post dinner - I think you'll find most people will agree with me. The Lady Catherine de Burgh (talk) 18:28, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I suspect the only source would be a collector's guide to their Toby jugs. I've never seen any turn up at auction, only those bloody Royal Doulton things, which all seem to have the same smarmy expression. Ning-ning (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Ha. Sevres is a formerly nice little town, and just a small step to Jeunes filles en serre chaude. I still don't have an article, though. Drmies (talk) 20:17, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Not an RS but a nearby company has some info. Dennis Brown &#124; 2¢ &#124; © &#124;  WER  20:28, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And Roy Kirkham has a brief history and a mission statement- they're perfectly willing to employ hothouse girls. Ning-ning (talk) 20:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The Kirkham stuff, as Lady Catherine says, does look rather twee. Eric   Corbett  00:04, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Lord, how did I land among such a group of macho men? Alright, Corbett, you can drink your coffee from a jam jar when you visit. I'm sure that Dr. Corbett has more sophisticated taste than you do. And I say this after looking up the word "twee". Drmies (talk) 01:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

(od) I prefer Cath Kidston floral design- Kirkham's a bit derivative of book illustration. The sort of stuff that'll be stocked by Govier's of Sidmouth, alongside their range of porcelain statuettes of the Leaderene. Glyn Colledge is worth an article. Ning-ning (talk) 06:50, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure. But tell me, where the obit speaks of "Denby pottery", is that in reference to Denby Pottery Company? Or is "Denby pottery" also a more generic term? I'll write it up with that assumption, but would appreciate help. Drmies (talk) 23:35, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, it's just the pottery at Denby. I have three pieces of what I assume is "Glyn ware"; I'll photograph them- might be useable for the article. Looking at examples of the same type (free-painted leaves in autumn colours) I wondered why the standard of painting was so variable (some are crap). The obit says there were 70 decorators employed- unlike Poole where the decorators signed their pieces, the Denby just has what I assume is his signature- he must have "signed off" on their work. Ning-ning (talk) 07:25, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * One more British question: our supermarket sells some British stuff, but I can't decide if I should spend over $3 on a can of "Devon Custard". Is it any good? Drmies (talk) 22:33, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * For some reason they always use artificial sweeteners in the canned stuff. Much better to buy some Bird's custard powder and make it yourself with sugar and milk. Richerman ''   (talk) 23:06, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion on how to make a copy of the Devon custard here. Richerman ''   (talk) 23:16, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That last link didn't open for me. I suppose I've made the Bird's stuff myself, following the cornstarch-inflected recipe in The Joy. Drmies (talk) 20:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For some reason it's not working for me either today, but it did last night. Maybe those Ambrosia people have sabotaged it. Richerman ''   (talk) 21:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe they also installed VisualEditor. Drmies (talk) 01:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Uruguayan War
Eric, unfortunately, the Uruguayan War FAC nomination isn't going well (as I expected). It needs more reviews. Do you know any good (and respected) reviewer whom I could ask to take a look at the article? --Lecen (talk) 14:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * While I'm not sure I fit the exact description of the type of reviewer you're after (!), I'll try and take a look at it tomorrow night Lecen. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:48, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The review seems to be going pretty well to me Lecen, fingers crossed. Eric   Corbett  20:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you both. I really appreciate your help. --Lecen (talk) 14:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Geography of Scotland in the Middle Ages
Many thanks for a very helpful and rapid GA review. Much appreciated.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 12:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's very satisfying to be able to wrap them up so quickly, which is in no small part due to the excellence of your Scottish articles in the first place and your rapid response to any questions I raise. Eric   Corbett  12:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

General articles back in time are extremely poorly covered on here so great to see quality work on a general subject back in time. Somebody has to create Agriculture in the Middle Ages or. Farming in medieval Wales or something at some point!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  12:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

sometimes...
User talk:Ealdgyth and diff - am I being stupid here? I don't see why a possible modern-day location of a small incident late in a battle should be described in such detail in the battle's article. Most of the scholarly treatments of Hastings don't go into where this incident might be located on the modern battlefield, so I feel like it's trivia best confined to battlefield guides. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * But, it also appears in version 2.0 of the video game and someone on a sitcom somewhere, about 10 years ago, mentioned it! :-P   Montanabw (talk) 22:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You're being stupid if you think that all those fans of version 2.0 of the Malfosse video game don't believe that's the single most important event in the Battle of Hastings. But to be serious, fighting the addition of trivia is an impossible task really. Eric   Corbett  22:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Copy edit / peer review
Thanks for your improvements at Old Church of St Nidan, Llanidan. I've put it up for peer review, FYI, in case you (or any TPSs) had any comments on it before I take it to FAC. BencherliteTalk 14:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Good luck with that. I'll have another read through later. Eric   Corbett  14:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I'm TheDJ. I noticed that you made a comment that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. ''Your edit here was unacceptable. Please rectify this. I can't believe I have to use this template for someone who has been in this community for 7 years....'' —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 01:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Go rectify yourself asshole, I'm not a babysitter. Eric   Corbett  01:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't quite believe I've just read that, and not just your bad punctuation. For your name-calling and swearing it seems you should be reprimanded. I will investigate this later. Inglok (talk) 01:52, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * What kind of idiot are you Inglok? Eric   Corbett  01:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you have any more abuse to throw at your fellow editors? Your behaviour is appalling and completey unwarranted. I'll make sure to report it. Inglok (talk) 02:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you mean generally or just in your case? Eric   Corbett  02:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Since punitive blocks aren't allowed, I have nothing left other than to advise you to take a really long wikibreak. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 07:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Reversion
Hello. I'd much appreciate it if you could explain why you reverted my edit here. "Thanks, but no thanks" isn't a great explanation. Thanks. Inglok (talk) 01:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Because your writing is at a level I'd expect of a primary-school child, who's taught to follow rules they'll learn later aren't rules at all. Eric   Corbett  01:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Inglok - if I say it over in my head, it sounds more natural without the "the". cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Casliber. Eric Corbett, your reply is rude and without evidence. Please provide a good reason for the reversion. Thanks. Inglok (talk) 02:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You write like a ten-year-old, time for you to fuck off now. Eric   Corbett  02:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Yet more evidence. I can't quite believe your behaviour. It's utterly baffling. Inglok (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * What's baffling to me is that you seem to be completely unaware that you write like a ten-year-old kid. Eric   Corbett  02:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay guys, let's just calm down a bit. Inglok, your additions were not necessary to keep the grammatic structure of those sentences intact. "The", although sometimes taught as compulsory, is slowly but surely being eliminated in this use. Eric... well, we both know how this works. (NPA and whatnot) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I know exactly how it works. Some asshole turns up, winds me up, and I get blocked. Eric   Corbett  02:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * you know too much too well, - kafkaesque again, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Personal attacks
Please be aware that personal attacks, such as calling another editor an "asshole" as you did with this edit and in the section above this one, are never acceptable on Wikipedia. Please read and familiarise yourself with the No personal attacks policy, or you may be blocked from editing. Thryduulf (talk) 01:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Since when was calling an asshole an asshole a crime? Eric   Corbett  01:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't I have been blocked by now, to prevent any further disruption to the project? Eric   Corbett  03:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * To perpetuate the cycle of the diva? Causes more drama than it's worth. Looks like you win! You officially have free rein to be as rude as you want. Congrats! Doc   talk  03:32, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that privilege belongs to the assholes like yourself. Eric   Corbett  04:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I wish! You are an inspiration to assholes everywhere, though. Doc   talk  04:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think they look to those like you for leadership, not me. Eric   Corbett  05:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Wrong. I'm just a small frye. You're a big fish. Your influence eclipses little idiots like me. Doc   talk  05:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It certainly ought to. Have we finished with this nonsense now, or are you determined to carry on to round two? Eric   Corbett  05:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "Round Two"? As if! You'd likely run off and retire again. We simply can't have that. Glad to see you're maintaining your stranglehold of power. Yeah, we're done for now. Doc   talk  05:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Why are you still here? What is it you hope to achieve exactly, apart from making yourself look like an idiot? Eric   Corbett  05:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Blocked
For multiple (recent) clear personal attacks, and a long history of the same, I have blocked you for a month. Examples: "asshole", "go rectify yourself, asshole",, "idiot", "assholes like yourself". All this from today. Being one of our best editors doesn't mean that other policies no longer apply, and this isn't an occasional outburst or one editor who was trolling, it is a pattern without any noticeable change to it. Fram (talk) 08:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I have raised the block at Administrators' noticeboard/Archive250. If you have any comments to add to that discussion, feel free to post them here and someone will copy them for you. Fram (talk) 08:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well Eric at least you won't have to deal with this Visual Editor mess. Kumioko (talk) 12:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You might as well make the block indefinite, as I won't be coming back here while those like you are in charge. Eric   Corbett  13:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just relax, Eric. It's not like you were blocked for reinserting a hyphen.... :D
 * If you had commented on "sanctimonious bullocks" rather than on the person, you would have been fine.
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz  15:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * , go ahead and block for taunting. I'd do it myself, but I'd like to see a serious breach of civility (something beyond "asshole") before I put on my little politeness patrol hat. What reason did Doc9871 have to come to Eric's talk page but to put oil on the fire? None. What's more disruptive, taunting on someone else's talk page or using a cussword on one's own? Seriously, how do you answer that in good conscience? Drmies (talk) 15:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, the one that poked the other person in the eye should get blocked too. Pumpkin Sky  talk  16:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing will have changed by 4 August, and certainly not my attitude to editing here. Consequently I'm making a formal request to have the length of this block made indefinite rather than one month. And as I've never appealed a block, and made it very clear I never would, as I consider that to be demeaning, that should satisfy all those who so much want to see the back of me. It'll also mean of course that any temptation on my part to return on 4 August is removed. Eric   Corbett  20:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Really? I'll do it, as a "self imposed block" but I can assure you I take no pleasure in it. Perhaps think on it? Pedro : Chat  20:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was trying to make the point that one week, one month or one year would make no difference. I'd still be the same person. Eric   Corbett  00:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll block you for six months if you're serious. Please first read my conditions here. Bishonen &#124; talk 20:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC).
 * Oh don't be so daft Eric! We have dealt with these people a 100 times before and lived to tell the tale. Besides which we have the immense satisfaction of GAing Mount Vernon to achieve - the plan is driving me mental; I think I am going to dispense with it altogether unless you can do one of your line drawing plans. A month should be long enough!  Giano   21:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ditto. Who gives a rat's ass about WikiProject Protoctology? The block will be reduced to a day or two. Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  21:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The point is that nothing will have changed no matter what the length of the block, so it's kind of absurd really to be arguing about 48 hours, a week, a month or whatever. Nothing will have changed, unless block-happy admins such as Fram and Kww are ejected from the project. Eric   Corbett  21:11, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably not, but let's have a laugh: why don't we paste Mount Vernon onto your user page and GA it from there - it's quite legal and you can edit it legally there too;I wrote a page on my user page while blocked once, and everyone joined in; it was quite jolly rather like a party and made those supporting the block look even more ridiculous.  Giano   21:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting idea. But I'm going to be away for the next week or so anyway, so being blocked is no big deal. Eric   Corbett  21:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a shame, I was feeling like a laugh - you writing publicly writing while blocked and your detractors are squeaking about dong their usual F-all.  Giano   21:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Kww is even more disliked and politically ineffectual than Automatic Strikeout. Fram is Fram, like Galactus a power whose attention is best avoided; as in the past, one of his sentinels heralds shall protect you from Fram, even at the risk of losing The Power Cosmic. Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  21:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's time something was done about them. Eric   Corbett  21:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * FWIW I have to agree with Giani -- these people are fleas -- you've flicked them off a hundred times before -- what's different now? You've said repeatedly that you won't leave until you're good and ready -- are you really good and ready?  I don't think so. Wait out the silly block, flick off the fleas, carry on.   DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  21:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm really not sure what's different this time, it just feels different somehow. Anyway, I'm off shortly, so I'll consider my options when I get back. Eric   Corbett  21:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Eric, I know you despise ballet, but I still thought of you adding a pic, dancing sacrifice, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's not just ballet Gerda, I don't see the attraction of dancing, except as an excuse to get close to a female you fancy. Eric   Corbett  22:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't see the attraction of sacrifice ;) (I saw the performance pictured.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * We all think differently. Pictures don't help me very much. I need you to explain it to me in words and then I need to go away and think about your explanation. Eric   Corbett  22:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Words hurt too easily. I enjoy company. If I will have to miss yours until your condition is fulfilled I will have to wait a long time. I can wait ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Words do hurt. How many times have I been accused of chasing off new editors, without even a scrap of evidence? Eric   Corbett  23:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I just thought about that, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen anyone talk about all the editors you have educated, encouraged or helped, which far outnumber the butthurt editors who asked for criticism then couldn't handle it once they got it. Maybe a day or two off to ponder (which is for your benefit, not enwp's), but I'm selfish enough to say I don't want to see you leave for longer.   Dennis Brown &#124; 2¢ &#124;  WER  23:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going to take some time off to think about this, but to be honest the level of vitriol from those who aren't even fit to wipe my arse makes the outcome rather obvious I think. Eric   Corbett  23:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Having just seen a suggestion that user:Doc9871 should also be blocked, for baiting, I'd like to make one final comment. Wilkipedia's blocking mentality will be the death of it, and it really can't come soon enough. Eric  Corbett  23:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well have a good break and come back roaring ( and I mean roaring ) to edit. In the meantime, Fram can strut the encyclopedia buoyed by the adoration of his acolytes for being such a big brave boy and the rest of us can add some content.  Giano   08:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

AN review closed
The AN review of the block has been open for 24 hours, and closed. The result is that the block has been endorsed as being in line with policy, and supported by the majority of participants in the discussion. Sjakkalle (Check!)  08:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was still waiting for an answer to my question, before voting Oppose. Premature. (Now I will probably be blocked for this judgement.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Damn right it was premature, as well as incompetent. We do not normally consider a simple majority as a consensus. --John (talk) 09:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * see my answer over there, - the question in the above is who is considered "we", some certainly do, but not a "we" I would like to be part of, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

For those who follow such things only through the medium of Eric's talk page, that close by Sjakkalle was contested by various people (myself included) as an obvious "supervote" and no longer stands. Discussion continues at WP:AN on the usual basis (i.e. that Eric is somewhere between Beelzebub and St Peter, albeit rather nastier to commas that Beelzebub is or was...) and an order for extra rations of popcorn has just been placed. BencherliteTalk 12:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * And for the first time ever (I believe) I've posted on  an AN, RfC/U, or Arbcom that  concerns Eric/Malleus. Not  that  I'm  going  to  contribute anything  that  will affect the outcome either way,  but  I'm  gonna need that  popcorn... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I made a few comments over there. I've never seen Eric drive off one single editor, and if he did, it was some snarky asshole (ASSHOLE! ASSHOLE!  ASSHOLE!) (see, Montanabw said ASSHOLE on wikipedia!  So block me !)  who roundly deserved it. He speaks for all of us.  And, like a couple of other editors I know (one of whom has also posted here) the drama queens of wiki never seem to forget or forgive, and it also seems (from comments there) some who live on the dramahz boards seem to have declared war on content editors and consider us the problem.  Montanabw (talk) 16:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just for the record Eric, even though I don't agree with a lot of what you did, I really do respect your content creating abilities. As I noted before, "...you will remain an asset to the encyclopedia, perhaps long after you are gone, through your remarkable work in mainspace. Even while I was typing up this post, I imagine that multiple readers, perhaps in multiple countries around the world, were reading something that you wrote in one of our articles and perhaps finding information that they seriously needed. Furthermore, it cannot be doubted that you have been a helpful collaborator to many of your fellow Wikipedians during the years..." It is sad that it's come to this, but even if this really is the end, your contributions to Wikipedia will not be forgotten. AutomaticStrikeout ?  18:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh for god's sake, leave him alone. Does anyone mind if I archive this to stop further drivel driveling in? [Truthkeeper88] now Victoria (talk) 18:36, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Sanddunes Sunrise III
   ps Every day, we lose what the wrongly blocked would have given that day. And a little bit of our souls.  nb: Sanddunes Sunrise

People can be incivil using the politest words, and civil using rude words. Eric, I found you helpful, gentle and ready for an unpopular oppose. Missing you (with a nod to the designer), --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)



VE
Sorry to see the block, not least because good experienced content editors are needed at VisualEditor and are in short supply. Of course it's only implemented in article space so won't be affecting those who spend their Wikilives editing the drama boards. Calling all Eric's talk page stalkers: please try using VE for some serious editing,and give them your feedback when you find glitches.

Enjoy the summer while it lasts, Eric: this isn't the weather for sitting indoors at a keyboard).  I look forward to seeing your edits again in a month: please don't walk away over this latest silly spat.  Pam  D  08:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You're quite right Pam. Eric   Corbett  12:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Edward Graham Paley
FYI I have nominated this article at GAN. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Good luck with that, can't see you having too many problems. Eric   Corbett  21:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Promoted already. Wow!! Thanks for your help.  I shall need it again no doubt when those idiots have finished having their way with you. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was pretty sure it would be OK. I don't think you're allowed to suggest the possibility of another editor being an idiot though, even when it's patently obvious that they are. Eric   Corbett  13:40, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What a nicely written article. Lovely lead, and I admire the diction. Drmies (talk) 20:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is indeed nicely written, as are all of Peter's articles. Eric   Corbett  21:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the copyediting that makes it so. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 21:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

You continually choose the wrong fora.
The reason you are blocked is not that Admins are more polite than you, but because you are less than polite here. On the other hand, on the Admins IRC channel it seems that a group can happily giggle about cremating another editor alive, but here one can't tell someone rather bluntly where they keep their brains. In spite of Jimbo strenuously and unambiguously telling the Arbcom that they have control over IRC Admins, the Arbcom are never going to spoil the fun that is had there - why should they? They all grew up chattering on IRC hoping one day to graduate to the big-boys channel; and what do your blocking Admins have to say about this atrocious behavior - absolutely F all. You see Eric, you are not a member of the club.  Giano  09:34, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Obviously not, thank goodness. Eric   Corbett  11:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To take a Marxist point of view (Groucho, not Karl), I would not want to be in one of these groups even if they thought I was eligible to be a member. The acceptance of (or perhaps the lack of realization of) the inconsistencies brought about by phoney ideas of privilege based on grasping at power and holding onto it are just amazing. The mental contortions that are gone through to justify the unjustifiable are both a wonder and a horror to behold.  DDStretch    (talk)  12:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Giano and I have a plan that will demonstrate to those who believe themselves to be in charge just how impotent they really are. Assuming of course that he hasn't been blocked again by the time I get back home in a week or so. So Giano, behave yourself! Eric   Corbett  12:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Moi? Blocked? Shock, horror. No, I won't be blocked. Enjoy your holiday and take some nice snaps for the project.  Giano   13:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not a member of that select forum either. I went to the local country club the other day, to see how the other half lives, and found myself wondering whether these people didn't need to go to work, that they could spend the whole day playing golf and drinking cocktails. Same here--with leaking roofs, kids needing food, the carpet to be vacuumed, a day job, and Wikipedia, who has time for chat rooms? Eric, Wales would have been the better choice, weather-wise. But who knows, maybe will buy me a beer when we get to North Carolina. Drmies (talk) 19:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just put you a PBR in the ice chest. It should be "rodeo cold" by the time you get here. I had to send the definition for "rodeo cold" to Urban Dictionary.  Can't believe they didn't have that. Dennis Brown &#124; 2¢ &#124;  WER  19:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ha. Your infidelity will be noted at the next occasion where we will determine whether you get to keep your tool or not. Which of the three or four procedures we'll follow is to be decided on later. FWIW, I don't see that definition up there (yet?). Quick anecdote: when Mrs. Drmies and Drmies were living in Asheville, during their first year of matrimonial bliss, they went out, with a friend, to a dive where some band was playing. Mrs. Drmies has cash, and gives it to Drmies, who goes to the bar. It's like $8 or so, so Drmies, a certified slime bucket, gets hisself a Leffe or something like that, and a PBR for his missus, who has never drunk it before. He thinks (or fools himself into thinking) that she should appreciate the introduction to hipsterdom that drinking a PBR is. She thinks (not incorrectly) that she got short-changed with a beer that's no better than Milwaukee's Best. She has not, to this day, forgiven or forgotten said Drmies for the action(s) related just now (it's been almost ten years). There's a lesson about marriage in here somewhere, but I'm on cocktail #1 right now and I'd rather not do allegorical exegesis at this time. Drmies (talk) 20:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * They have to review it before publishing, and I made one error there, so let me define it for you here: "Rodeo cold" is the temperature of beer when you load the ice chest up with ice and beer first thing in the morning, leave the cooler in the truck while you are at the rodeo, and then come back later than night after all the ice has melted to have one.  Using the Fahrenheit scale, that equates to 3 to 5 degrees below ambient temperature.  Put another way: slightly colder than urine.  It is an old Texas expression. Dennis Brown &#124; 2¢ &#124;  WER  21:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

You have a moral responsibility to edit!
I have just had to post this. Does that make you or anyone else happy? I can't do GAs, I don't understand the criteria or the mentality - you do.  Giano  21:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't. I once thought I did. Eric   Corbett  21:35, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well perhaps when you had a couple of weeks paddling at the sea-side you will feel differently.  Giano   21:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Eric, you are one of the best editors on the project! you could do some things nobody else can, literally this place is a mess without you. Also a side note for the future; when I'm not in a good mood I don't edit Wikipedia, maybe you should try practicing the same thing literally this train wreck, wouldn't happen again, though I do hate how it was carried out, anyways hope to see good editors like you back on Wikipedia again! Prabash.  Akmeemana   00:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Eric, I don't normally get to hear about this sort of thing, came across it by chance, but ... you are missed already. Very grateful for your stern comments that improved Thomas Bewick at GA, and happy to say that John Struthers made it when I rewrote it... hope to see you back soon. Keep up the good fight ... Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:14, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Disappointment
I am very unhappy as to the way the Wikipedia community handled this issue, I archived the top discussion because I didn't want to see poor Eric getting harassed and verbally abused even more. its a goddamn encyclopedia, and were here to build it not to go on and bait people and laugh at their blocks. This is just sick. Prabash. Akmeemana   19:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If only it were really true that we're all here to build an encyclopedia. Just look at Fram's contributions for instance. He obviously couldn't write an encyclopedia article if his life depended on it, so why is he here? Eric   Corbett  12:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have written GA's and even this year a FL. I normally don't brag about them, don't put cute icons at the top of my page, but that doesn't mean that I can't or haven't written encyclopedic articles, even if they aren't of FA level. Apart from that aspect; people who can't write encyclopedic articles but do a lot of gnomish work, let's call it polishing and maintaining the work of those that do write articles, are also here to build an encyclopedia. Please show some more respect for the contributions of everyone who tries to maintain or improve Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 06:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that you are very clever Fram, but here you sound like a drowning man trying to save himself by floating the tired old sayings of the IRC chatterers who seldom edit, but always have an opinion. I can see no benefit to the encyclopedia when I have to make edit summaries such as this. However, if such things make you happy, then you just keep right on the way you are - closely monitoring hard working editors to ensure that their etiquette and manners come up to the standards of whichever Eutopian community it is that you inhabit. Others like myself, will just give thanks that we live in the real world.  Giano   07:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

A wee note
Hi Eric. I don't read the dramaboards very often, so I only just noticed this. Last night I was discussing with my other half about my favourite Wikipedia editors, and I specifically mentioned you. She liked what you did with Tickle Cock Bridge. I just read the ANI thread and this talkpage now. I can't defend your response to the revert on Sunbeam Tiger no matter how hard I think about it. Sorry.

I don't suppose there's any chance in you having the weekend off and reconsidering all of this? I think everyone's got a bit giddy and excited and got carried away with all the dramah - again, and we all have good and bad days. I could do with someone willing to do a good copyedit on Van der Graaf Generator when I've finished going through my book sources and I am in a position to take it to FAC. They came from Manchester and wrote a song about the Malleus Maleficarum - what's not to like? Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   13:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


 * No chance at all. If you want to sleep in the same bed as admins like Fram that's your choice of course, but I've made mine. Eric   Corbett  14:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My energy and time are limited, Ritchie333, but I can help with a section or two---and more if the Spirit moves me. Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  20:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw the band, with Genesis as 2nd on the bill, in Preston Town Hall once. Johnbod (talk) 12:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw them last year at the Barbican, and by jove they are no less experimental and daring and occasionally bloody terrifying as they were 40 years ago. Meanwhile, I'm regularly fixing WP:REFPUNCT violations like this one and missing Eric, who can stamp on them like a game of whacamole. Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   13:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

A random comment from a random editor
When I first saw your name pop up a couple days ago, I had no idea that you previously edited as Malleus Fatuorum. Then I check your userpage's logs, and it comes to my attention that you've been editing under your real life name for almost two months now.

Guess it just goes to show how much attention I've been paying to WikiPolitics these days (aside from the big things, like the WMF petition). :/ Kurtis (talk) 22:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Congrats!
Congrats on the FA! I just got back from camping and saw it - thanks for making it into such a great article! Wadewitz (talk) 18:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * What FA are you talking about Wadewitz? Eric   Corbett  09:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Damn
I've been away quite a bit lately, I just wanted to say how disappointed I am that the civility police have once again kicked your door down. They should visit Sweden, where I've just been. People there are genuinely mentally disturbed (in a good way). I imagine the Swedish Wikipedia has no such thing as civility. Parrot of Doom 21:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Enjoy your innocence. :) Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  21:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about Eric! I'm quite sure he's got a few spare socks ferreted away -- Hillbillyholiday talk 03:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And I'm quite sure I don't. Eric   Corbett  09:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Only kidding! -- Hillbillyholiday talk 09:36, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

1950s automobiles
I managed to place tiny symbols of the 1950s German automobile culture on the Main page, look for Blood Wedding, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Our Shelagh
Hello Eric. I've just started an article for our born and raised in Salford Shelagh's second play. Your thoughts? Email me, perhaps?--Shirt58 (talk) 12:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks
Just a quick note to say thanks for the copy editing work you did on (mainly) the text I had added to Jaguar XJ220, it's much appreciated. Nick (talk) 21:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A beautiful car deserves a beautiful article. Eric   Corbett  10:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Another beautiful car will be on the front page tomorrow, thanks to Eric. That should be fun.  I upgraded my flame thrower for the occasion. Dennis Brown &#124; 2¢ &#124;  WER  10:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Eric, I asked for you to be unblocked for the occasion ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Block message is still on editnotice though Eric apparently can edit the article, but to be on the safe side, I've also watchlisted the Tiger. We got your back, buddy!   Montanabw (talk) 17:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't edit the aticle, but I wouldn't be able to blocked or not anyway, as I've got a long drive home tomorrow. Thanks for watchlisting. Eric   Corbett  17:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll babysit, too, guessing that it will be easy compared to the Lynching of Jesse Washington --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'm quite glad to be away from it all tomorrow, TFA is pretty much always a wind up. Eric   Corbett  22:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Sssshhhh! Gerda!  Don't say THAT!  We are talking about a CAR here!  OF course there will be more "drahmahz" than over a controversial article about the death of a human being!  :-P   Montanabw (talk) 22:52, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I was actually surprised how easy it was to watch Kafka, with that massive spike in interest, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Reading material
Hi Eric, I recently realized whilst snooping on someone else's talkpage that you don't have JSTOR access, which made me feel doubly guilty for posting sources from JSTOR to The Coral Island review. This is an heads up to expect an email shortly with the sources for you. I realize you might not want them right now, but at some point you'll get back to that piece. Take care. Victoria (talk) 16:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't have access either currently, so much for a renewal of the yearly subscription...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  17:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't have access either, I used to piggy-back into it using a student son, but i now have to wait for another son to attain university age to do so again. Can Wikipedia not use some of its millions of dollars to gain us access? It's donated enough to IRC in the past, would JSTOR not be a more useful investment.  Giano   18:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There are people willing to help. J Milburn (talk) 19:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, Ironholds I see, most useful.  Giano   19:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I wonder if Ironholds still does, but I do (like all Oxford alumni, though few seem aware). Happy to help. Johnbod (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're very fortunate to have been at Oxford after the internet was invented. In my day, one had to borrow a book from the local monastery.  Giano   19:53, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually I wasn't, but they give all alumni JSTOR now - apply via Oxford Alumni - just google it. Very handy. Johnbod (talk) 23:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I still have access, yes. If anyone needs articles, drop me an email. Giano, I think I recall getting you some articles for a page on a stately home a while back - I forget which one. I want to say Blenheim Palace, but that, ah. Doesn't look like your work. Ironholds (talk) 21:01, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well funnily enough, I did write it, and do seem still to be the majority editor at Blenheim Palace, but I long ago gave up trying to keep it in order. I don't recall either where you helped out, but I'm sure it was very useful.  Giano   21:16, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As an aside, I have one of the WMF JSTOR accounts, and am quite happy to acquire things for folks. Email me what you'd like. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Heh! That explains it then. I could've swore it was Blenheim, and then went to checked and went "..there's a pretty strong inverse correlation between Giano and maintenance tags. I must be going silly." Ironholds (talk) 21:25, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you...
Featured article candidates/Norman conquest of England/archive1 - just promoted. When the turkeys (do you guys over on the other side of the pond even have turkeys?) get you down, remember that things like Norman conquest of England help folks who wouldn't know what a Wikipedia admin or what the internal politics of the site are. That's why we're here. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:00, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Great work. We do have turkeys over here, millions of 'em; just ask Bernard Matthews. Wikipedia has a choice to make, not me, and it seems like it's made its choice, for better or for worse. I've never been happy being a part of this social engineering experiment, and I can't imagine feeling any happier about it when this ridiculous block expires. The die is cast.  Eric   Corbett  22:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * George III bred them to run wild in Richmond Park for the shooting, but the locals poached them all. Now we traditionally have them on Christmas Day. Johnbod (talk) 23:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As a nature photographer ... I hate the things. They are like spooky as heck and noisy too... so not only are they difficult to photograph, they scare away the OTHER wildlife... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you still blocked
Is this daft block still in force? Never mind if it is because I have the solution and you need never be blocked again. Bearing in mind the comments by Arbs here and spectacularly here, all you have to do in future is say before calling someone an undiluted idiot of worse is precede the comment with "Were I an admin posting in the Admins IRC Channel, I would call you X Y or Z." That way you can vent your anger without actually saying it because you are not an Admin in their private chat room, and no admin can block you for saying it because you have not said it, and they all know that were you an Admin you could easily say it in the chat room and get away with it. But you're not saying because you're not an Admin. Clever isn't it?  Giano  20:18, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Mark Arsten filed his odd request with the parties notification giving me a userlinks template, which included an invitation to block me, and the administrators administrator templates. When I changed everybodies' to administrators, Salvio first reverted me, and then re-reverted---a sign of progress.
 * Mark Arsten has been busy at Wikipediocracy too. SandyGeorgia noted some odd patterns in his editing, at her talk page.
 * Did you see Qworty's victim's essay on a few of the pathologies of Wikipedia in the Wall Street Journal today? Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  22:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparently it is. I have to be punished don'chaknow. Eric   Corbett  09:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well if I were an Admin taking in the IRC Admins Chanel, I would say that the blocking Admin was a power-crazed blithering idiot who doesn't know his ass from elbow, but then I'm not an Admin so I won't say it. Once you are returned from your holiday, we can sort something out, but I'm not adding anything to Mount Vernon until you are able to advise; that way the GA should be quite plain sailing.  Giano   09:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm quite certain you can easily guess what my opinion is of Fram and those who have supported his pointlessly extended block, so no need to say more about that. I'll be back late tomorrow, but with the weekend probably won't be able to do much until Monday. Strange that I'm not allowed to use sandboxes, still, there are so many strange things that go on here. Such as Fram becoming an administrator for instance, so it's pretty small beer. Eric   Corbett  10:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Go to Germany. Several of our articles were developed there, this for example, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You can edit on your user and talk pages, just paste the page in there or I will do it for you. There's no problem; anybody objecting to that would just be vindictive and really rather stupid - not traits which are known amongst our highly respected Corps des Aministrateurs.  Giano   11:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're not seriously trying to suggest that WP has a shortage of the vindictive and stupid are you? Eric   Corbett  22:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've thought about this Giano, but it's clear to me that in the current environment the likely outcome would be that I'd be accused of trying to circumvent my block and you'd be accused of aiding and abetting me. Not good for either of us really. So I'm just going to sit it out and do other stuff for the next three or four weeks, after which we'll see what happens if Fram's still an admin by then. Eric   Corbett  00:18, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Wells Cathedral
I came here to ask if you would be kind enough to turn your copy editing skills loose on Wells Cathedral, but reading all this stuff about (another) block, I suppose that is a bit pointless at present. Once the block ends you will probably have too much of a backlog of requests, but any help from talk page stalkers would be appreciated.&mdash; Rod talk 20:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nothing will have changed once the block expires, except that the block will have expired. For Fram or anyone else to believe differently is sheer lunacy of the highest order. Eric   Corbett  22:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * An asshole blocking me for a month for calling an asshole an asshole really says all that needs to be said I think. Make mine a three-month block now and see what difference that makes. Eric   Corbett  21:56, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, and my talk page access ought to be removed as well now, as the truth is never welcome here. Eric   Corbett  21:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

High performance
Great collaboration on a great product, Wikipedia as I like it, - thank you and Dennis for showing that side! I hope it has a future, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Congratulations on another TFA.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  08:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

So far so good, Eric. I'm home today and armed for bear. I won't bother will little edits I disagree with but are arguable ok as don't want to burn all my powder. Again, thanks for allowing me to share this TFA. I think I want to work up a few more in time and this has been a good experience for me to learn with. You are certainly a good teacher, even if many around here aren't good students. Dennis Brown &#124; 2¢ &#124; WER  11:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Just got home from Wales, where it was baking hot all week. Unlike the weather where poor Drmies is vacationing I understand. I haven't looked at the Tiger's TFA, and as there's nothing I could do about anything anyway I probably won't. Eric   Corbett  19:54, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd love to leave a long note, but it's raining on my netbook and my track pad is all over the place. Does that tell you enough? I'm closing this up before I short out. Glad you had a nice trip, Eric. That is, I assume you had a nice trip. Best, Drmies (talk) 03:19, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It was a really enjoyable break. I'd not been to Wales for years, and at the risk of offending Dr. Blofeld my abiding impression had always been how sour and unwelcoming the Welsh were, with their "English go home" graffiti and blanking of any signs in English. But everyone we met was so helpful and friendly that my opinion of the country has turned around completely. Eric   Corbett  13:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm glad. We spent part of the day in Asheville, the Paris of the South, where we lived for the first year of our marriage. I'd love to go back there. As my wife said, we'd be skinnier and wouldn't have half the marital strife we have now, since it's such a nice place. I'll find a job there and you'll come visit. Dennis can't come, since it's too liberal for him. Drmies (talk) 22:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it has been baking hot indeed, it is right now! Where did you go Eric? It's hotter down here in the south. I've gone a golden brown colour relatively quickly and I've been spending an average of 3 hours a day in direct sunlight. Don't want to overdo it! Luckily I don't go red I go brown straight away! It's not as if we have many days in the year in which you can bask in it like the Med.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  20:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A tiny little village whose name I can neither spell nor pronounce a mile or so outside Cardigan. Eric   Corbett  20:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm good for fiddling with the minor nitpicks. Will be online only another =/- 3 hours, though.   Montanabw (talk) 20:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * What will be, will be. It's only going to be on the main page for another three or four hours anyway. Thanks for all your efforts in looking after something I bet doesn't interest you in the slightest. :-) Eric   Corbett  20:25, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It survived with minimal drama, and all is well. Congrats!   Montanabw (talk) 23:32, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The strange thing is I feel quite detached from it now, almost as if someone else wrote it. Maybe that's a good thing. Eric   Corbett  00:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

block
this block is outright foolish. I'll talk to Floq and Fram tomorrow. — Ched : ?  00:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please don't take the trouble Ched. Even if the block was lifted tomorrow I wouldn't be back to editing while the likes of Fram were lording it over me; I'd only be back to see him desysoped. Eric   Corbett  00:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It is totally ridiculous that you are not permitted to comment here . As one of Wikipedia's leading editors, you have more experience of this subject than almost anyone. For the sake of the project, this half-witted block needs to be lifted now.  Giano   13:19, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Totally agree this block is stupid. Pumpkin Sky   talk  13:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support that, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I need to be punished and taught a lesson, although what that lesson might be I have no idea. Eric   Corbett  13:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I will of course respect your wishes Eric. But I also see this as "punitive" and something that doesn't "prevent" anything. (other than you being able to add content). — Ched :  ?  14:04, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course it's punitive, as are most blocks on established editors. And I'd like to discuss the sale of a very substantial structure spanning London's major river with anyone who believes that I'll be a changed person next month Eric   Corbett  14:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to add this. Obviously I can't contribute to the ArbCom case you initiated, but IMO you need to focus it on the behaviour of those involved, and in particular Andy Mabbett, rather than on the issue of infoboxes per se. Very few others apart from Mabbett seem to feel strongly one way or another about them, and for those who do feel strongly Giano developed the compromise idea of a partially collapsed infobox. It works well and I've used it with some success in a few articles, including yesterday's TFA. There are obviously issues with individual infoboxes, but ArbCom has no remit over those. Eric   Corbett  14:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the main problems is Mabbett's style of interacting with others in "discussions". That inflames things almost immediately, and has been the root reason why he has had bans from wikipedia in the past. But he not only seems to not acknowledge this, if you try and gently make the point (as I have done on the infobox discussion page some months ago), he immediately accuses you of personal attacks, and everything falls apart from then on. In my opinion, if he wasn't around, much of the drama associated with infoboxes would be resolved gracefully, as befits a collaborative project, even if some of the words used in that debate were ones that maiden aunts would swoon at (as I've said elsewhere, some people need to grow a pair of balls over language used in discussions).  DDStretch    (talk)  15:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. Get rid of Mabbett and there's no infobox problem. Eric   Corbett  16:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In agreement too. Mabbit accuses of personal attack and then WP-OWN unless he can gave his own way. I would treat him rather like a rather badly behaved child throwing a tantrum except he's too big to be ignored, too single minded to be diverted and as for the good, sharp slap round the back of the legs - well I expect that's illegal now. I will link to this discussion from the RFA Page - if Eric cannot go the Arbs, then the Arbs must come to Eric.   Giano   18:08, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * We have also the other feature of the discussions involving him an infoboxes: that is, the refusal to answer a simple and direct question: whether there was any intrinsic reason why infoboxes were the only way metadata could be added to articles. I asked him that question (using various rephrasings) many many times, and he never answered any of them. I know he read the messages in which I asked him. So, there is no other more plausible conclusion to make other than that he chose to refuse to answer them, and it took others to tell me what I had already suspected - that there was no intrinsic or necessary reason why adding metadata to articles had to be done via infoboxes. (This fact would then lead to a suggestion that other ways should be written to add metadata to articles that editors thought should not have infoboxes, but he seemed to not even register this as a suggestion when it was made). In my opinion, this kind of behaviour was certainly not consistent with the objectives of wikipedia being a collaborative editing environment, and his constant refusal naturally led many to suspect that we were not being told the entire story, because it seemed that something was not being disclosed to us when there seemed no reason to keep it from us. This created and creates a toxic environment for collaborative editing. Now Mabbett will always jump to the accusation that one is indulging in personal attacks by making these points, but in fact, one is not doing this because the intention is to improve the editing environment by pointing out deficiencies in behaviour that feed through to approaches to collaborative editing. If what I have said is a personal attack, then every warning message, and every temporary block of a disruptive editor is also a personal attack, but this seems to be lost on him. In fact, it is well known amongst experts that even ad hominem comments are not always fallacies, and to determine whether they are or not, one has to look at the entire framework of dialogue that is taking place, not just say "comments about myself = personal attack", which is what he seems to do. There are other issues, like refusing to admit he was wrong, and resorting to more and more pedantic and almost irrelevant "get outs" to avoid admitting he was wrong that wears one down so his view prevails by attrition of the opposition rather than a critical examination that is ultimately collaborative in nature. The problem is, no one seems to be prepared to deal with this because everyone wants "an easy life", and there are too many factions that twist and distort the rules of wikipedia in a permanent gaming way for anything good to come out of it. I would like to be shown to be wrong on critical discussion and examination of this point, but I am not confident I will be. This is what drives many expert editors away. It all becomes just too much when it should never be as tricky or hard as others make it to be for reasons of gaming or ego. DDStretch    (talk)  00:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

A final thought
I'm going to be away again now for while, and I may or may not be back next month.

Let me leave you with this last thought. Anyone who believes that this article is anywhere near FA level needs to have their bumps felt. Eric  Corbett  18:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Eric, enjoy your time away! I sort of took your case to ArbCom, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You seem to be defending Mabbett, who by any rational judgement is a functional cretin at best. Eric   Corbett  22:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I am defending Andy. I have seen reasonable posts from him since September 2012, didn't look before, late to the scene. See here, for example. Do you know better? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ps: I also like his sense of humour, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think he's an obsessive idiot, but YMMV. Eric   Corbett  22:55, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * How would you feel if I'd written about you that "You should however have instead taken your pen, punched a hole in her windpipe and looked on as her attempts to wave for help got increasingly feeble"? Eric   Corbett  23:41, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * For two days (off Wikipedia) I thought hard and unsecessfully about how to respond to your comment, - I am happy that you changed it. Do you have a source to substantiate "obsessive"? Or one for "idiot"? - The last quote: sorry, I don't understand it, and am not curious enough to find out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs)
 * I find it strange that you appear to be saying that "obsessive idiot" is more acceptable to you than plain old "idiot". Nevertheless, my opinion is informed by my personal experience of Mabbett's obsessive intransigence, intransigence that is quite simply idiotic. Eric   Corbett  17:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Plain old "idiot" is not what I remember but I don't want to repeat what I didn't like, which sounded like attributing supernatural powers. My English is limited, idiot seems not right by my personal experience. Intransigence is a new word, seems similar to "not able to compromise". I can see cases where that is a positive quality. Two great musicians, asked "What do you do if your ideas of a tempo for a piece you want to play together are different", answered: "We do it my tempo one day, his tempo the other. A tempo in the middle would be a bad compromise, not right for either one." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You have your opinion of Mabbett, I have mine, and very likely nothing we say will change the other's mind. I don't know whether English is a really difficult language or not, but one of its subtleties is that there are often several different words to describe the same basic idea, and over time their meaning changes, acquiring either a positive or negative twist. "Intransigence" would never be seen as a positive trait, and what you're describing would better be called a compromise. One of my favourite examples is the possibly apocryphal story of either Queen Anne or King James II on seeing the completed St Pauls Cathedral and describing it as "awful, pompous, and artificial" which was then a compliment meaning “awe-inspiring, full of pomp, and artistically done". Anyway. let's not argue about Mabbett. Eric   Corbett  18:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll learn more about the new word before using it. I like to explore more subtleties of language, thanks for helping with that! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I used to work for a German company, and I was always shaking my head at the translations they produced. One that sticks in my mind is "interlocutor", a word you never hear these days and would probably only ever come across in an old Black and White Minstrel Show TV programme. Eric   Corbett  19:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Pretty similar to calling someone an asshole or a functional cretin, really, though a bit more hyperdramatic and I also will acknowledge it depends on the context; you have the deft touch of mostly targeting those who probably would benefit from being knocked down a peg, but have missed on a few occasions. The truly mean-spirited stuff in general needs to be toned down around here by everyone.  People grow, people change.  We're all human and flawed.  Your getting blocked was ridiculous, but Mabbett is not satan, either.  (You both share the trait of others thinking you are, however...) Just saying.  From my end, you've both been pretty decent to me.   Montanabw (talk) 00:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "You should however have instead taken your pen, punched a hole in her windpipe and looked on as her attempts to wave for help got increasingly feeble" is one of many IRC comments by Oliver Keyes, who uses the Ironholds and Okeyes (WMF) accounts, the latter presumably when employed as the community liason for WMF---which wishes to increase the number of women writers apparently. Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  09:14, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we need to add tags to talk pages? Montanabw (talk) 22:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Linking to the logs will get you blocked for violating BLP. Adding a citation-needed template might get you blocked for ... "disruptive editing". Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  22:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please tell me you are joking of something...?  Montanabw (talk) 23:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope,. IRC logs are off-limits here. - Sitush (talk) 23:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's easier to understand WP/WMF's pathetic posturing as wanting more women and simultaneous covering up IRC misogyny as incompetence or stupidity, not a joke---also the most likely explanation for the preterm deployment of the Visual Editor.
 * Look at the page history of the my ArbCom case to see the kind of remarks which are celebrated as "sex-positive and third-wave feminism". P!nk had a song about self-hatred, "'Pull my hair! I'll suck it!' girl./ Stupid Girl!"  Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  12:54, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Pony treats!
  Treats!

As a previous recipient of the Pony Prize, (as George Ponderevo) here is some sugar for your pony, recognizing the promotion of Oxbow (horse) directly to FA, bypassing GA, following your rigorous copyediting, upon your recommendation and with your encouragement! Ponies do not really need sugar because they are prone to be easy keepers, so this is a special treat, only given once! (Subsequent awards shall consist of carrots). Montanabw (talk) 22:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC) To send a pony or a treat to other wonderful and responsible editors, click here.

Chin up man, you do some great content work around here and we await your return. Montanabw (talk) 22:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll have a few scores to settle next month, and they will be settled, no matter how long it takes. Eric   Corbett  17:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I feel like I'm a drummer boy or errand runner that's caught in the crossfire between the trenches. There's a lot of other good faith people getting stuck in that spot too. We aren't precisely noncombatants, as we have views, but we aren't the trolls and if not 100% neutral, we are at least able to see past the personalities to the issues.  You are a bit more of a combatant, but there was no grounds for the ambush that occurred.  When you get back, it might be a whole new world.  Or maybe not.  Either way, enjoy the break, I guess!  Montanabw (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It'll be a whole new world for the assholes like Fram, I can promise you that. Eric   Corbett  21:12, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Methinks hopes for a "new world" are greatly exaggerated. There's the usual flurry of sound and noise, but it will likely grind to a halt once corners of the shadow bureaucracies realize they might lose power. Intothatdarkness 21:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * We'll see. It's a big mistake to treat me like a silly schoolkid. Eric   Corbett  21:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * True. Also illustrates how poorly we treat schoolkids; no wonder they misbehave so often!   Montanabw (talk) 23:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Things could worse, Fram could have always exiled you to Gibraltar, I'm sure Drmies would happily join you eh Dr? Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 16:47, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ha, I've worked on plenty of Gibraltar-related articles, yes. I'd follow Eric everywhere, of course, since everybody knows I'm nothing but a fanboy (and according to a drunk email by one of our FA writers, a "lightweight" to boot). If they exile you, do they pay the fare? Drmies (talk) 02:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Exiling Fram to Gibraltar would be far more interesting. Agathoclea (talk) 06:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It would indeed, but Fram's days are probably numbered anyway. Eric   Corbett  12:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh I'm sure the Thomas Cook wikipedia promotion scheme will cover the costs of your flight to the rock! There's enough new flights happening now to Gibraltar anyway thanks to wikipedia... Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 12:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you back from your vacation now Drmies? Did it ever stop raining? Eric   Corbett  12:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it never did--thanks for asking. Even on the day we packed it rained--in fact, that was the only day that it rained in the morning. Clearly God was trying to tell me something. Monday morning I was back in front of the class, so yeah, it was a bit short. But, dear Eric, let me tell you, the countryside there is spectacular, and the rain has a fringe benefit: look at Upper Whitewater Falls. The main picture is "normal" in terms of water quantity. Then look at the little video I just added. Sublime. Drmies (talk) 14:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Infobox case
Per this edit - where else dis you tell me that there were some?  Giano  15:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The one in Sunbeam Tiger springs immediately to mind, as that's a fairly recent FA. Although not an FA/GA Pendine Museum of Speed also has one, which I think demonstrates very nicely the problem with some infoboxes; they're longer than the bloody article! Eric   Corbett  15:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Does this help? 78.149.172.10 (talk) 16:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks that's really useful, I have pasted it in my evidence section. Eric, I am more than happy to paste anything in the evidence page for you - if you want - or in fact do anything on Wikipedia for you. I do not acknowledge this absurd block on you and if they try to ban me for coming to your aid; they will soon wish that they hadn't.  Giano   16:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There's only a couple of weeks to go, so maybe we could try out your idea for Mount Vernon. I've got some papers I think will give us enough to plug the few gaps we have left, and it might be rather amusing to get a GA while blocked. Eric   Corbett  16:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

You are allowed to provide evidence for the Infoboxes arbitration case if you wish. You may post your evidence section here, and any editor may copy it to the appropriate arbitration page. This would apply to any blocked editor, at least in the case of a time-limited rather than indefinite block.

(I'm deliberately not commenting here on the block itself, although I would certainly do so if you made an unblock request or expressed interest in that direction. However, that is a separate issue from evidence for the case.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Giano has expressed my view on the case quite well, so no need for me to echo what he's already said unless the case becomes a vote. As for appealing my block, that's something I've never done and never will do. I'm a lapsed Catholic; my days of beating my chest in front of a faux authority figure and chanting Mea Culpa, mea Culpa, mea maxima Culpa are well behind me. There was some fault on my side admittedly, but only some, not all. Eric   Corbett  16:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyway, even unlapsed Catholics do not think it's right for Admins to have their egos stoked in such a perverse way.  Giano   16:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My wife is so concerned I might lapse back again that many years ago she hid my rosary. It was a pretty tacky bauble anyway: plastic beads with a tiny bit of holy water supposedly blessed by some pope or other in the bead where the long bit dangles down, where you have to parrot some other prayers for each bead. As a kid, it was always a race to see how quickly you could say the Hail Mary to get round the bloody thing. Eric   Corbett  17:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * number of characters in your comment was exactly 666.
 * I had thought of asking for a stay in the Mars RfAr so that all Martian sex-workers could participate, but again self-control got the better of me. Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  19:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You'll be sorry when you get to the Pearly Gates and see me on the other side having a ball with my handmaidens, and you can't come in, but have to go downstairs and sit with Fram for eternity.  Giano   17:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'll become a Muslim and blow myself to bits. How many virgins does that qualify you for in the afterlife? But before I did, based on my experience of Islamic countries, I'd want to have some assurances that the virgins would be female. Anyway, I remember being given my rosary after my confirmation, and thinking "Wow, the pope blesses all of these rosaries?" Now of course I realise that at best the pope blessed a thousand gallon tank of tap water. Eric   Corbett  17:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If you weren't already blocked, you would now be blocked by the blasphemy police - probably all Southern Baptists. It won't be those nice little people who drive around the USA in horse-drawn buggies because they don't have computers Seriously though, It's rather boring you being blocked like this - bloody inconsiderate really.  Giano   17:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm simply speaking from personal experience of Islamic countries. The block will soon expire, and then the fun can begin. Eric   Corbett  17:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * At one time, a sensible Admin woudld have come along and unblocked you and said "don't be ridiculous - all of you." Butof course now they are all shit scared of the civility police and have exchanged their balls for a lesson on how to daintily fold a paper table napkin. Which is all rather distressing.   Giano   17:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't blame them really, I obviously needed to be taught a lesson in their eyes. As for what that lesson might be I have no idea. That Fram is an asshole perhaps? Eric   Corbett  18:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Virgins? Who wants virgins? Not I thank you.  I'd rather have a woman experienced enough to know what she's doing, and how to do it properly.  — Ched :  ?  18:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The attraction of virgins is rather lost on me as well, but it seems to be important in some medieval Islamic cultures. Eric   Corbett  18:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Stop fantasizing Ched; put both hands clearly on the table and unblock Eric. Then we can all get on with writing an encyclopedia.  Giano   18:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Unblocking me would be wikisuicide really, and as the block is just about halfway done now wouldn't achieve anything much anyway. I'm content to sit it out and take it from there. And those who think I'll have changed in two weeks time are going to be in for rather a shock. Eric   Corbett  19:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Mmm, but Liz McDonald "knows what she is doing", there has to be some sort of happy medium, experienced but not leather-skinned, wrinkly old slappers which only appeal to a certain type of fella... Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 18:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Above topic promptly reminded me of this. Montanabw (talk) 22:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

As you've once more attracted way too much admin attention...
(Wish you'd stop it too, or the admins would stop... or both!) I had to turn to User:John for help with Battle of Hastings. I hope you're back to good form soon, as I've got to start cracking on Harold Godwinson and Edgar the Ætheling as well as a little naughty boy named Roger Norreis. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know how you manage to keep churning them out Ealdgyth. Eric   Corbett  19:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Wife selling
Sigh. I see you're blocked again. How demoralizing.

Anyway, on to the affectless notice I intended to leave.

In 2011, you participated in a deletion discussion re: wife selling. I believe the article should be revisited to assess whether concerns about synth and scope have come to fruition. My own concerns, expressed most recently here, are based on the material pertaining to ancient Rome, the area in which I mainly contribute; I'm hoping to have some input from other perspectives. Several people participated in the AfD, but since I don't wish to canvass, let me explain that I'm contacting only you and as the two other editors who followed up actively on the talk page. I may be overreacting. Cynwolfe (talk) 21:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've never had a very high opinion of that article, not least because almost nothing of it is actually to do with wife selling, as your example of Ancient Rome illustrates. Eric   Corbett  22:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it looks like you were right after all. Kaldari (talk) 06:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

A general request re my block
I appreciate the efforts of Nick and Ched and even Demiurge1000 to try and get me unblocked, but I'd really prefer just to sit this one out. Fram being what he is, any unblock would be be dressed in weasel words implying that I'd been in the wrong, he was in the right, I'd recognised the error of my ways and so on. The evident truth though is that we were both in the wrong, although him far more than me, something he's never likely to admit. I haven't noticed my attitude towards assholes softening in the last two weeks, and I see no prospect of them softening in the next two weeks, so these escalating block lengths are just a fucking joke really. Eric  Corbett  16:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * More than a year ago, I gave Precious to a user with insight, on block length, but (naturally?) he didn't become an admin then, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If Wikipedia seriously wants to reverse its gradual and otherwise inevitable decline it needs to come to an understanding with editors like me, rather than pursue futile attempts to change us. It's WP that has to change, not me. Eric   Corbett  16:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I've had my own troubles over the last 24 hours or so, although I've not been blocked. I sent an email to someone towards the end of the farrago, where a request at DRN actually caused almost as much dispute as the underlying issue. I am increasingly disheartened, got really annoyed and called a group of people a choice four-letter word. In the email I noted that "Wikipedia is losing solid, experienced contributors and admins at an alarming rate and yet they continue primarily to worry about enticing and retaining new people. Yes, new blood is always desirable but not if it is tainted and cannot replace what is being lost: Wikipedia is bleeding out and the occasional worthy new contributors -, for example - are insufficient to staunch the flow." - Sitush (talk) 17:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I entirely agree, solid, experienced contributors are being turned away at an alarming rate, and people like us are only here because we care about content. Wikipedia is flawed in so many areas, but I hope it'll be what the earliest computer was to the most powerful super computer today and will gradually evolve. But in all honesty, all of the troubles caused here are by people, and you can't get people to change their nature.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  17:48, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me give you just one simple example Dr. Blofeld. If I was ever stupid enough to take a personal attack I'd received – and I get loads of them – to ANI then the reaction would be (and has been), well you've got a bloody nerve, coming here complaining about personal attacks. So what choices are there on offer, other the completely stupid "ignore it"? Eric   Corbett  18:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You've not been blocked yet Sitush, but admins have a habit of creeping up on you. Eric   Corbett  18:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes. I'm rather surprised that it hasn't happened already. Of course, I'm not seeking a block but I'm not a hypocrite either: if, for example, I think someone is a twat then that would be the word to use. To a large degree, I'm past caring anyway and my latest brush with stereotypical "California" types is just one more step in the right direction, ie: out of the door. It seems that Groucho had it about right regarding clubs and members. - Sitush (talk) 19:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As one who called a sitting ArbCom member a cunt during an ArbCom case I think you're preaching to the converted Sitush. For sure it's getting more and more difficult to contribute here, but maybe that's the plan for the way forward: WikiFacebook, bugger the encyclopedia. With a dusty old ancient knight guarding the dusty old ancient content. Eric   Corbett  19:08, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatever the rights and wrongs of the block; I think it's important now that you are not unblocked. Each day the block remains in force is another day that the project loses content and consequently Fram, his supporters and the whole admin system look progressively more ridiculous, spiteful and vindictive. You remaining blocked is the best way of highlighting the absurdities and abuses that the ordinary content editor has to suffer here on Wikipedia.  Giano   21:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think so too. I've plenty of other things to be doing rather being continually insulted on here anyway. Eric   Corbett  21:39, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to add to that, I never have and I never would ask to be unblocked, for one very simple reason. I'm not going to fall on my knees and beg forgiveness from an asshole like Fram, and anyone who thinks I might be bullied into doing so is living in a universe far beyond my imagining. Eric   Corbett

Three weeks into the block now and I haven't noticed my attitude changing. What is this lesson I'm supposed to be learning? Or the damage my block is supposed to be preventing? Eric  Corbett  20:46, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Help please
I understand that you are a comma expert and I really do have a lot of problems with them, and writing in general as far and that goes. How would you use commas in this sentence:

According to folklore, the shipments were kept a well-guarded secret but in spite of the security, robberies were frequently occurring and it was a mystery as to how the bandit knew when shipments were scheduled, so a "sting" operation was devised to catch the thief.

I can hardly say how many different ways I've tried to use them in this sentence. Perhaps the sentence is not well-constructed in the first place... If someone were to schedule a Wikipedia class for editors that want to improve their writing skills I'd sure attend. Gandydancer (talk) 18:01, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The sentence is too long and the commas are misplaced. I'd suggest something like "According to folklore the scheduling of shipments was a well-guarded secret, but as robberies were nevertheless frequent a "sting" operation was devised to catch the thief." Eric   Corbett  19:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes! Has anyone ever considered setting up a class for editors that want to improve their writing skills?  Would you be willing to teach it?  Gandydancer (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * No idea and no. Eric   Corbett  19:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Tony1 has some excellent tutorials on his user page. Richerman ''   (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * (R beat me to it): There's some useful stuff at User:Tony1/How_to_improve_your_writing. Pam  D  22:45, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hee, hee, these answers are like buses - nothing for three hours and then two come at once. As for usage of commas I will quote that old Welsh word dafgi (it means don't ask, fucking google it!) Just google 'use of commas' and you'll get stuff like this. Richerman ''   (talk) 23:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks for the information. No doubt the Welsh are very smart people and I am as well, but I have looked at the rules many times and remain uncertain.  The best way that I can think of to explain it is to say it's like pruning trees or grapevines.  You look at the pictures in the book and then go out and look at your trees or vines and hardly know where to start.  Everything looks so different!  Lucky is the person who has an expert that will go out with them and help them to transfer what the book said to the actual experience. It is rather embarrassing to admit to being such a poor writer, but I will try to find someone who is willing to spend a little time with me. Gandydancer (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have only one piece of advice to offer, and that's to try and get your meaning across using as few words as possible. The commas will fall into place then. Eric   Corbett  18:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I should probably remove the sign further up speaking of what the wrongly blocked would have given us. You keep giving, thank you ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:56, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I would personally split your sentence into two. Something like "According to folklore the scheduling of shipments was a well-guarded secret, yet there were still frequent robberies. A "sting" operation was devised to catch the thief." Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   08:22, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Your "still frequent robberies" doesn't quite work, as we've not been told that there were frequent robberies in the first place have we? Eric   Corbett  10:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, "The road passes through some of the most notable landmarks in the Highlands, including Loch Lomond, Rannoch Moor, Glen Coe, Ben Nevis, the Commando Memorial, Loch Ness and Urquhart Castle." Are drivers advised to wear wet suits when passing through the lochs? Eric   Corbett  10:21, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well how else do you think American tourists get a good view of the monster? Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   10:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Bramshill House
Giano or anybody else here interested in helping expand this house? It's been put on the market for £25 million and looks architecturally quite important. If I can find enough sources I'll try to get it up to GA.Tibetan Praye Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 11:50, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it is architecturally important, but not very well written up. From a quick glance glance to it looks to be an excellent example of the English Renaissance; I will have a scout around and see what's reliable. Hopefully before some one alights on this and Andy Mabbett demands its inclusion in an infobox.  Giano   18:57, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The Jacobean mention grabbed my attention the most. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 12:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow Giano--while you were typing this up, I was adding the ghost story (look at the time stamp). Eerie, huh? Drmies (talk) 02:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that - great minds obviously think alike. There seem to be a lot of very good edits going on there at the moment, so I'll sit back and watch - too many cooks can spoil the broth.  Giano   13:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Why does this article have such a ridiculously wide table of contents? Eric   Corbett  12:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting stuff Drmies, thanks! Haven't noticed the table Eric as I don't display contents by default. Will try to add more to this over the next few days. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 12:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like to have helped, but that won't be possible for the next couple of weeks, obviously. The project must be protected against me trying to improve it at all costs. Eric   Corbett  12:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * From what I gather there was a software update yesterday which temporarily caused the contents box to span the page. All back to normal now, whatever it was. Keri (talk) 12:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A software downdate more like. Don't the developers ever test anything before deploying it? Eric   Corbett  12:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course they do ... they just test it badly, and barely enough, so they can upload the build and go back to playing World of Wikipediacraft. Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   13:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Clear the cache. - Sitush (talk) 13:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I just did that, and it didn't do anything, Sitush. Drmies (talk) 14:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, more grades (whether up or down): videos now open in a separate screen, as my experience at Upper Whitewater Falls suggests. I'm too old to keep up. Drmies (talk) 14:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We need Eric's copyediting skills - the "History" section has no fewer than 5 paragraphs all starting with "In (date)" in quick succession. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   13:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Obviously Fram doesn't agree with you, but John might be prepared to have a look. Eric   Corbett  13:36, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Article development, Ritchie. First one finds the information, then one sticks it in, then one asks Eric to clean it up. A teacher of writing would tell you that the writing process is evidenced in the drafts, and that's what you're looking at. Moreover, it's a draft produced by two editors, hacking away at the same time. Feel free to whip it into shape. Drmies (talk) 14:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry Richie, I didn't see that Eversley was already linked in the article. The ghost story will make for a nice DYK hook (we're almost at 5x expansion). I know how much Eric loves DYKs. Yes, the history section is the worst of it, right now; it needs a few more factoids on ownership (and when was it Grade-I listed?) and then cleanup. Drmies (talk) 16:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I hate DYKs even more than I hate ballet and opera. But not quite as much as I hate Fram and his fellow civility police. Eric   Corbett  16:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, there's not many editors who focus on FA and GA and bother with DYK too. Crisco is one of the very few remaining I think who does, but he does a tremendous job all across the site anyway. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 18:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ealdgyth does too I think, and more power to her elbow. Eric   Corbett  18:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Suffer in silence, my dear Eric. Like me. Did I tell you how one of my socks marked a "new" article for speedy deletion, giving the exact same reason under which an admin actually deleted the article ten minutes before (the exact same version), and then my poor sock got blasted by another admin and two established editors? And that subsequently the first admin refused to back me up and thus denied the validity of his earlier deletion? And that at the following AfD discussion the article was of course deleted and the contributor blocked? The injustice of it...my bootless cries go up to heaven. Drmies (talk) 16:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, Kaldari (remember?) dropped by on my talk page the other day to lecture me some. Drmies (talk) 16:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember Kaldari, with some distaste. Eric   Corbett  17:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The article would look better with some interior images, this is the only freely licensed one on flickr and that's obviously not owned by the uploader and would be deleted. Some copyrighted images here, looks fantastic inside as you'd imagine and it only seems to have images for the reception hall, a conference room and some tapestries. Imagine what the other 327 rooms and halls look like! I think I'll ask around on there tomorrow, begging for images in return for plane tickets to Gibraltar but I think the police academy would be the best to ask for images, although if they're anything like the policemen on wikipedia we'll get nothing ... Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 18:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Obviously copyrighted, but here are some more views. Anyone have access to back copies of Country Life for referencing? Yngvadottir (talk) 19:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

If somebody could get hold of a copy of Bramshill: its history & architecture it has lots of images I think from the early 1880s which could be scanned and uploaded. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 22:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I never ... I have apparently successfully ordered it via interlibrary loan from the Claremont Colleges. If and when it arrives I'll find someone who can assist with scanning and uploading logistics. And now I must go to bed. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * , that is some fine, fine work you did. Thanks. But don't tell about what you did with that reflist, or he'll have a hissy fit. Drmies (talk) 23:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure why, it was 30 em vs reflist|2. On my firefox the 30em doesn't show as two columns and it is now a long section... Perhaps Eric could explain? Anyway, it would be wrong to put such a decent article we've developed through DYK and spoil them with it, they don't know what they're missing. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 12:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't give you the long answer. The short answer is, because that's what Malleus did. Drmies (talk) 18:10, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll say this here to Yngvadottir, Drmies and Tibetan Prayer, so that it's perhaps not picked up elsewhere. Is this GA a little premature; I had intended to go over it before the GA? However, in Eric's absence I began a small copyedit - he would normally do it. Now, I may be wrong (and I really, humbly apologise if I am), but I smell unwitting copyvio! It's an instinct that I have. I suspect that in the hurry to GA someone may have innocently used a few too many phrases from the reffs - there's just too much professional and rather antiquated phrasing, suddenly interspersed by clumsy phrasing - it's ringing alarm bells.  Giano   17:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The article uses a lot of public domain material from the book in the architecture section with attribution in the references at the top, that's why. I removed a lot of the original and reedited it in with the rest, but the drawing room section especially contains a lot of material from it. Perhaps it could be further reworded to reduce some of the more antiquated phrasing in part to fully integrate it and make it look more like the work of one person, but generally the article looks GA quality in my opinion. I'm sorry that you feel it is being rushed. I'll ask the reviewer to put off the review for a few days if you want to edit it, I didn't think you were interested in editing it. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 17:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, Template:Did you know nominations/Bramshill House. Drmies (talk) 18:23, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Eric's the expert on GAs - I suggest that you wait and see what he thinks; me? I know nothing. it's just that phrases like "the building consists of terminal pilasters of the Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian style, from story to story" with no mention of the colossal order and "the parapet is an architectural feature that in the Elizabethan era was much varied" when we are actually in the Jacobean era and "the imposts of the arches rest upon the pillars, conveying an appearance of instability" are just a few of many phrases which concern me. I know I'm not the only architectural writer here, but I do question some of these opinions and their phrasing. I even wonder if who inserted the phrasing actually understands what they are talking about. Anyway, as I said - I think Eric is the man to know.  Giano   18:24, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I hadn't finished editing it, but I took another look at it and tried to imagine how it would look through Eric's eyes. I tried to mostly remove what came across as pedantic architectural "gobbledy gook" which he or I would find irritating, but there is still a few features mentioned with some terms neither of us have probably heard of, but are linked and seem appropriate to mention. I don't honestly think the article reads too badly at all, a pity Eric can't edit it. Is he permitted to edit his sandbox? Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 18:49, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Officially, no, according to Blocking policy, nor are we allowed to edit by proxy. I don't know if I still have a pair of Eric-colo(u)red glasses laying around; I may have left them at the office. Drmies (talk) 19:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's theoretical, as I can't edit my sandbox anyway. But I think this article still needs some significant work before it's ready for GAN, and as Giano has said I suspect plagiarism at the least. As a rule I'm not fond of incorporating text from sources even if they're in the public domain without paraphrasing or attributing them the same as any other source. A quick look through reveals more than a few problems with the prose, some of which I've listed below:
 * "The roof consists of red tiles, mostly hipped, but have large gables to the west ..."
 * "The stairs on the north side of the hall were originally in Eversley Manor and are dated to the early 18th-century ..." No hyphen.
 * "... inspired by one of the great Italian architects of 16th century Mannerism, Giacomo Barozzi da Vignola". Should be "16th-century".
 * "Although the ceilings at Bramshill are not any less characteristic of the Elizabethan period than the other architectural parts of the mansion ..." I thought it was a Jacobean mansion?
 * "... the ceilings of the Drawing Room and library are more elegant and ornamented". Why is it "Drawing Room" but not "Library"?
 * "Staircase and First floor" Why is "First" capitalised?
 * "The andirons are large and well-adorned ..." Should be "well adorned".
 * "... which he considered 'a source of constant delight',[53], fondly naming them 'James the First's gnarled giants'[57]" Punctuation
 * "The altar retable depicts four saints, probably dating to c. 1840." The four saints dated to 1840?
 * "The surface of the panels in plain, but the ribs or styles are carved."
 * "It is two stories in height, the lower being Doric, and the upper being Ionic." It would be much less clumsy if those two "being"s were dropped.
 * "The balustrades and bannisters of the staircase are elegant in style, and the walls above the stairs going up to the first floor and the walls of the first floor landing contain some very large paintings, including several portraits." You've got a run-on sentence there. Should also be "first-floor landing", not "first floor landing".
 * "Beyond the staircase on the first floor are the state rooms." Isn't everything on the first floor beyond the staircase, by definition?
 * Eric  Corbett  19:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Where is the bloody man when he's wanted? There is a solution; it's pasting the page onto his user page and letting him copyedit it there. I think I'm going to paste it there and he can either revert me of edit it - his decision.  Giano   19:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There done; it's up to him now to either help the project or show it the same contempt that it shows him.   Giano   19:31, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice of you to put the pressure on the poor guy, Giano. Don't you know that he's still got to finish a kitchen floor? Also, do we know which four saints are on the altarpiece? Rosiestep just changed the reflist layout; I don't know if I have an opinion on it. Drmies (talk) 19:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not allowed to edit my user page anyway Giano. Eric   Corbett  20:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you can edit your user page - do you want it pasted here?  Giano   20:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Eric is right; he can't edit his user page. He can edit only his user talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:02, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A kitchen floor? Bugger his kitchen floor. People always change 'relist' it just makes it smaller print and in more columns - nothing to worry about. Don't worry about Eric either, he'll let us now if he's unhappy about the change of editing venue; for the time being edit on his user page and then paste back to the real page, so that's Eric's version is current.  Giano   19:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the hall floor actually and the kitchen lights. Then on to the bathroom. Eric   Corbett  19:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, the laws of karma given by Featured article candidates/Charles-Valentin Alkan/archive1 come back at me! Thanks for the input, have addressed most so far. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 20:30, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm actually not bad on architectural terminology, although at least 2 of you are undoubtedly better :-) I see this material has been taken from Drmies' paydirt source, which given its date may well be hazy on Elizabethan vs. Jacobean, and I can see where it's replaced the few details I was able to add from Pevsner via de.wikipedia (they gave me page numbers and some massaging of Google let me see what they had rendered into German and summarise it myself.) However, I can only see it in snippet view on Google. I have the Pevsner ordered on interlibrary loan; if any of you can get it faster, I recommend doing so, since his summaries are unimpeachable even though I do sometimes disagree with his taste '-) Otherwise, please stall the reviewer till I can get said book. I'm afraid they come by post and this is not a fast area of the country in that respect. ... And then I will of course close my eyes and shiver while Eric slices and dices my prose. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right to be afraid. If I find any redundant commas then someone will be brought to account. Eric   Corbett  21:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If somebody who often visits the British Library could obtain a copy of this and see if it has anything. This might be worth a buy]. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 21:10, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * See above with regards to Bramshill: Its History & Architecture; supposedly also on its way to me. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent! I've just managed to find some info by searching in "search in this book" with a key word, but no doubt the book will be highly valuable, has information on things like the bedrooms and gatehouse etc. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 22:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I didn't realise this was already at GAN when I posted earlier, so I'll keep any further comments to myself until the review is over. Eric   Corbett  23:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Any idea what "wrought hangings" are? These are apparently what the Wrought Room's named after- they dangle from the bed in that room. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 07:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd be surprised if it wasn't tapestries of some sort, see here and all the hits on "finely-wrought hangings". Yngvadottir (talk) 12:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The house owner thought it worthy of mentioning in his book.. Having received some emails and what has been said here by Giano, I've withdrawn the GA nomination as I'd rather we were all happy with it, especially given that Yngvadottir has ordered books. There's little good feeling in an article passing GA when others who you value think little of it. I think it would pass GA currently but you have one of the highest standards for GA reviewing here so I won't argue with you on that. I hope that people will continue to edit this and see the potential in it that I see. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 12:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A quick search for "Wrought Room" seems to show that other houses here and in Ireland had one. Tapestries on the walls? Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 12:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm very glad to see that this article's GAN has been withdrawn; let Yngvadottir weave her magic spell over it once she gets the sources. Eric  Corbett  21:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me end for now by simply saying this. The article's content has certainly improved over the last week or so but its prose most certainly hasn't. I worked long and hard, along with many others, to get that green blob on the article page, and it distresses me to see it handed out like candy. Eric  Corbett  20:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The editing fest continued while I wasn't looking, but I made a few tweaks while I was integrating material from Pevsner and Cope. I must now go to bed. I invite you to have at it in earnest, and I'll do my best to help clarify matters using the books and not to further muck up the prose. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Yikes I just looked at the Althorp article, I'd have expected a much better article on it but lookig back through the article history I see I edited it back in 2011 when it was completely unsourced. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 08:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

You would never write this
Having avoided the thing until just now, the breathless reportage of the BBC leaves something to be desired: it seems that Twitter and Facebook are elements of royal tradition, thus: "The way the birth will be announced is steeped in tradition. It is custom for news of royal births and deaths to be attached to the railings of Buckingham Palace, but in this case it will be displayed on an ornate easel in the forecourt of the palace. The Queen, senior members of the Royal Family, and the duchess's family - if they are not at the hospital - will be told about the birth first. Then a royal aide will take a bulletin, signed by key medical staff, from the hospital to the palace under police escort. After the note is displayed, an announcement will be posted on Twitter and Facebook, and the media will be informed." And how the heck is sticking a note on an easel "tradition" when "custom" is that it is attached to railings? I despair. Not that I give a damn about the event itself but has the BBC been recruiting journalists from the late, unlamented The Sun? - Sitush (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Too many syllables. Must have been written by a well-educated serf. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 15:54, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Oh, wait, am I supposed to be like tied to the internet/radio/tv to breathlessly await the birth of the great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchild of William the Conqueror? (I'm sure there are plenty of other traces to Billy the Bastard, but that's the line that gets the baby the crown...) Hell, I'm probably about that many greats removed from Billy (plus or minus a few, I'd have to dig up the records, and I can't be bothered...) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Is someone about to have a baby? Eric   Corbett  17:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems so. It has never happened before, judging by the BBC web coverage. - Sitush (talk) 17:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I must say that this line had a certain ring to it: "The media scrum parked outside is having to contend with the heat on what is the hottest day in the UK since July 2006."  I must remember the phrase "media scrum."  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 19:10, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I think the media coverage is marvelous. I gave just seen the most informative interview of an American lady who has never met the Duchess, but flown all the way from Alabama to stand outside Buckingham Palace. When interviewed she was able to give her views on what sort of parents the Duke and Duchess would be and of course the child's name - I found that very insightful indeed. Naturally, as a very close and dear friend I cannot comment at all or be interviewed. The Lady Catherine de Burgh (talk) 20:32, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Montanabw, if you look around for photos of Nicholas Witchell then you'll understand why he wouldn't have stood a chance in any scrum (rugby) that I've been involved in, eg: the lovely photo of muddy chaps here. Lady Catherine, are you by any chance the subject of a rather bleurgh, as opposed to Blur, song performed by Chris of that ilk? Has anything appeared on Twitter yet? Has anyone poked Catherine, aside from the obvious? Has the BBC become Twitter or indeed Wikipedia Facebook. - Sitush (talk) 00:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL Sitush! Out here in Montana, rugby players are the ones who think American football is for wusses.  One town's team is called the Maggots.  I think their motto is "we don't play to win, we play to maim!"   Montanabw (talk) 18:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Doesn't everyone outside America think that? Eric   Corbett  20:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Given the high rate of traumatic brain injury in US Football, in spite of the padding, I'd have to say we need to examine the statistics. I don't think Rugby deliberately recruits 300-lb linebackers to run headfirst into 180-lb quarterbacks. =:-O  Montanabw (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't you have to be suffering from some kind of brain injury to even consider playing the game in the first place? Eric   Corbett  23:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL! That's always been my personal theory, but sad to say, it appears to be a rite of passage for the American male, even the ones who don't really want to do it.   Montanabw (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Uruguayan War
Eric (what happened with "Malleus"?), Uruguayan War was promoted and now is a Featured Article. I am sincerely grateful for your help. It requires a lot of patience to read, copy-edit and improve an article about something we have no previous experience. I appreciate all you done to me. Thank you very much, --Lecen (talk) 11:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You had to work hard for that one Lecen, well done for sticking with it. Eric   Corbett  16:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Reading that again I have to correct you slightly there Lecen, lest some get the wrong idea. I didn't do anything to you, I did something for you. If you were a juvenile I'd probably already be in jail by now. ;-) Eric   Corbett  20:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Prison might be better than the insane asylum known as Wikipedia.--MONGO 16:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * And a word to the wise Lecen; you should hardly ever (I'd say never) start a sentence with "however". A lot of people do it, I know, but they're invariably wrong. Eric   Corbett  21:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Typically I would agree with you Eric; and yet I've found times that in the WP:IAR sense it does provide good reading at times. Communication, especially in the written word, has changed so much over the last 10 years that I'm often unsure as to what is "correct".  I was raised such that word akin to "however", "but", "although"  were all considered improper as the initiator of a sentence.  "Still" (sorry, I couldn't resist), I do understand a limited use for such uses.  Yes, I do enjoy debating things with you.  Leaving the topic at hand - how are you and the wife doing these days?  I hope all is well.  Best always — Ched :  ?  22:35, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Everything's tickety-boo. And there's nothing wrong with starting a sentence with a conjunction. Eric   Corbett  22:41, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "tickety-boo"? ... I've never heard that expression before. I like it. OH?  You're unblocked now? .. Fantastic .. about damned time.   Question is: "Who's going to block Fram for being an <add derogatory term here>? — Ched :  ?  23:02, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * When and if Fram comes back he'll have some questions to answer. Eric   Corbett  23:11, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Naaa. People like that never answer for their actions Eric - at least not on wiki.  The only people who actually are willing to answer for what they do are the honest people.  Sadly though, honest and adult people here can't compete with the insanity that pervades this project.  As is so obvious with the "Malleus" account, you can spend 40, 50, 60 hours a week creating content and educating the unwashed masses - but the moment you call a "little shit" a "little shit" (note to User:Bishonen), then hell will fall down upon you.  Children like Fram, Prodego, and Kww will always prevail here because the honest adults know that they can not affect true change.  The concept of this project was a fantastic idea, but somewhere along the way a sense of leadership was lost.  Adults will have disagreements, and say unkind things, but when that happens and little dysfunctional children come in and "block" one person or the other from continuing a discussion - then it's a corrosive environment that only encourages the weak, and discourages those who are capable.  I have to give INC, Drmies, Boing, Dennis, PS, John, and so many others credit for standing up for what is right.  The sad part is the immature children that yell "WP:DIVA" .. that is just so pathetic in my view.  "However", I'm on a rant here - and I apologize for doing it on your talk page.  ... best always Eric. — Ched :  ?  19:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with a lot of what Ched said, keep in mind that karma exists and time wounds all heels. That said, I don't think that wiki is hopeless or doomed; it's just still a snotnosed adolescent and really a snapshot of the world as a whole (I've had RL situations where adults behaved worse at RL work than on-wiki, to be honest with you).  My view is if we let ourselves get run off by the bastard people, then nothing will stop them.  We gotta just keep plugging onward through the fog; taking wikibreaks as needed to preserve our sanity.   Montanabw (talk) 21:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * [ec]At what point, though, does enough simply become enough? Given the nature of policy OWN and the various bureaucracies, change will never come from below. It simply can't. If you look around, you can see the next generation of OWNers waiting in the wings (many champing hard at the bit waiting to get the bit). It's a system that is well-suited to perpetuating itself, and so long as that happens it will never leave the snot-nosed brat stage. That's my admittedly cynical take on things, at least. Any place that you have to take long breaks from just to "stay sane" in order to remain involved is obviously toxic. Intothatdarkness 21:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've tried to do a few things today, but really my heart's not in it any longer. Eric   Corbett  21:50, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * wait ... Montanabw and I agreed about something? OK - I've now fallen through the proverbial rabbit hole.  Anyway .. yep.  I just got done trying to block myself for a bit because I'm a bit afraid of saying what I actually think.  I best go do an "adminhelp" post - cause I ain't gonna get any prettier in the near future. — Ched :  ?  22:00, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * If you're afraid you might say what you think, Ched, this place is doomed. Intothatdarkness 22:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Unblocked
Hi Eric. I've unblocked you a bit early. I really don't see you doing anything upon returning other than working on articles and helping others with their work. I noticed the topic of unblocking you was mentioned to the blocking admin several days ago on their talk, with no reaction. If they or anyone else feel like reblocking, I can't stop them. I don't do much blocking for civility/personal attacks, but in your case I think any block should either be very short or indef, otherwise they're accomplishing punishment rather than real prevention. This isn't to say I think you should be blocked or not blocked, but just my general view of the whole thing. INeverCry  22:51, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * That's rather a surprise, thanks. If Fram climbs out of the pit in which he's hidden to restore the block I think that will tell its own story. Eric   Corbett  23:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks INC - just in time to let Eric look over a minor unimportant event. (kidding! You can look or not as the mood strikes you...) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:06, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Kww has decided to contest my unblock at AN, without informing me of course, since I'm simply shit on the sole of his shoe. Eric   Corbett  23:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Some people are just "drahmahz" junkies, I guess. (Buying more popcorn) - and tossing a log on the fire... Montanabw (talk) 23:22, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparently I'm blocked again, pending the lynch mob turning up at AN. Eric   Corbett  23:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK all you winners and losers, blocked and unblocked, admins or peons, university-trained or not: I think it is time that all y'all read "The Overcoat". And when you're done I expect a wiki-essay from each and every one of you assholes asshats about the concept of "Person of Consequence". Drmies (talk) 23:58, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

[EC] Hi Eric - I've restored the block on your account for now, while the consensus for it is reevaluated on WP:AN. This is purely procedural, blocks based on a consensus at a noticeboard should generally not be reversed by a single admin without discussion. If there is consensus there to shorten the block duration you should be unblocked again within a few hours. Let me know if you have any questions, Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  23:45, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have no questions, but I do have a few comments that might scorch your pretty little ears were I to reveal them to you. Not the least of which is that the block was not based on a consensus at a noticeboard. But I realise the facts mean nothing here. There's only another week or so of this ludicrous block to go anyway, so it's hardly worth fighting over. Eric   Corbett  23:47, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The failure to have consensus to over-ride a block (which had an excessive length) is not consensus to maintain the block's 30 days. You wheel-warred and should have your bit removed.
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz  07:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure if you've seen this yet, but you've been mentioned at Arbitration/Requests/Case. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:35, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It'll be interesting to see how ArbCom manage to twist that into another proposal for me being banned, which I have no doubt they'll try to do. Eric   Corbett  01:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I admit, I LOLed IRL at the "purely procedural" comment.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 04:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I admit, I LOLed IRL at the "purely procedural" comment.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 04:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello: just a note FYI, User:INeverCry requested and was granted desysopping (diff) and then retired from Wikipedia (diff), (diff). Also, as of this post, your account remains unblocked per a second unblock performed by User:INeverCry. Northamerica1000(talk) 07:38, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ... We lost another admin over this bit of "procedure"? Words fail me. Eric, my head is now spinning, but I did check and you are currently unblocked ... so stand by for me to get both Pevsner and the Bramshill book from the library, where I am told they have arrived, and renovate the architecture section ready for you to do your rebuild thereof. (Although I should warn you that nothing in this town opens before 10 Pacific, including the library.) Yngvadottir (talk) 12:42, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The close at AN did not specify the result, which, I see was to let stand the 20 day block instead of spending a week to decide if it should be extended to 30 days. Sort of like arguing whether there are an infinity or an infinity and one angels that can dance on the head of a pin. Apteva (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * SCOMN! The dramafest continues (more popcorn...)  Montanabw (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Glad to see you can now edit, although not without its price as I see. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 21:12, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Eric and his stalkers...
If anyone would like to look over Battle of Hastings and Roger Norreis for FAC prep, or for spots where it doesn't make sense to a non-specialist, I'd greatly appreciate it. They are my next two FACs - Hastings first. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Battle of Hastings? You're a glutton for punishment Ealdgyth. Eric   Corbett  16:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

While you're all here, Dementia13 and I think A82 road is good to go for FAC shortly, if anyone fancies giving it a good critique. As for Battle of Hastings, I think you're right to put Harold Rex Interfectus Est right up in the infobox, it was the first bit of Latin I ever learned at school, so I went looking immediately for it. Shouldn't there at least be a note on the battle being one of the most important and prominently taught in British schools for centuries, as popularly satirised in 1066 and All That? Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   08:32, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Secondary sources that go into that would be needed.... 1066 and all that doesn't count. For as pivotal a battle, it is sorely lacking in cultural depictions... Ealdgyth - Talk 12:00, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it wasn't something Victorian historical painters wanted to dwell on, unlike Alfred, though there are a couple of Edith Swan-neck finding or burying Harold's body (eg by F.R. Pickersgill in the Houses of Parliament, 1847). Johnbod (talk) 13:23, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Try this.. -- Hillbillyholiday talk 14:15, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, if you want, I haven't quite got Battle of Hastings up at FAC yet. 's done an excellent job of copyediting, but it can always use the master's touch (and no article suffers from having more than one excellent copyeditor work it over). Or if you wanna bad boy, Roger Norreis will be next at FAC after Hastings - he's definitely a BAD boy, although he was only an abbot instead of a bishop. But you really can't beat a guy who starved his monks, gave the monastery's property to his relatives, and "entertained young ladies in his quarters" as one of the historians put it so quaintly. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Best wait to see if this latest unblock sticks before making any promises. I'm sure John's done a grand job anyway. Eric   Corbett  18:39, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The sentence in the Aftermath section starting "As well as the buildings of the abbey" needs a tweak, but I can't do it since I don't know what was intended. Drmies (talk) 05:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The way forward
I think from the way that recent discussions have gone elsewhere that I ought to restrict my efforts to helping female editors such as Ealdgyth and Montanabw with their GAN/FACs, as they're obviously much easier for me to bully than male editors. Eric  Corbett  17:06, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please help me also ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:20, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm shaking in terror for the horrible bullying you've done of me. (Note for any idiots out there, I am not. This is sarcasm. Eric's been far from a bully - witness his efforts at Battle of Hastings where he ably helped copyedit my flabby prose.). You might bully a few commas, maybe. But that's doubtful too. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Like Ealdgyth said...! Yeah, I'm terrified that you're back on the loose! (And like Ealdgyth said re any idiots out there... except that I would replace "any" with "all the" ) Montanabw (talk) 17:50, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry Gerda, I ought to have included you as well. And several others such as Victoria Earle as well I suspect. I've always had a rotten memory for names. Eric   Corbett  17:30, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What I've found particularly distressing about this most recent charade is the continuing meme that I'm single-handedly responsible for chasing away loads of new editors, when nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone who doubts that need only look at JimmyButler's project with his high-school students. Eric   Corbett  17:39, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I want you to know that I was named "honorary female" during my dissertation years. Eric, I haven't been keeping up to date with all these exciting events; sorry if I missed anything important. You're unblocked and all that, I saw yesterday, and the unblocking admin is now gone? And there was an ArbCom thing that's no longer there? It's all too much. Anyway, nice to have you back. Come by and bully me anytime, but don't think that "asshole" is much of an insult if you really want to get my goat. (Or, with Milton, I like the gift as I like the giver.) Drmies (talk) 17:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There was an Arbcom filing but it was withdrawn. I'm not happy about the loss of the admin, while the name might not mean much to some, INeverCry was VERY active in Commons deletions, so there's a big hole to fill. -- SPhilbrick (Talk)  17:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No hole to fill there SPhilbrick, INeverCry is not leaving Commons. Thank goodness.--Amadscientist (talk) 19:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank goodness is right, and now I'll remind myself not to leap to assumptions. Which I will have to do again, I'm sure.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  20:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I just read it, thanks; someone kindly put a permanent link to it in the AN thread. Reading that as "INeverCry was about to get desysopped" is not evidence of good eyesight. Drmies (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I was moved to tears when I saw that the one thing INeverCry left showing on the user page was - Precious, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:23, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw that as well Gerda and thought of how much work you do to retain good editors. But...I can actually understand why INeverCry left and how frustrating things are becoming on the project. There are just so many editors willing to do the wrong thing. It is just sad. it really is. I hope INeverCry returns eventually.--Amadscientist (talk) 19:45, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can see as well how frustrating things are becoming on the project (I have a hard time to retain myself, see the red cat on the bottom on my user), and every precious one leaving makes it harder, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If I was ever minded to try and insult you Drmies, which is highly unlikely, I'd put a lot more thought into it than a mere throw-away "asshole". You'd deserve much better than that. Eric   Corbett  17:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that, Eric. :) Drmies (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd almost pay for the privilege! At least, I'd definitely buy more popcorn to see the show!   Montanabw (talk) 19:25, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd almost pay for the privilege! At least, I'd definitely buy more popcorn to see the show!   Montanabw (talk) 19:25, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I get on very well with loads of editors of all genders, but I've always been puzzled by why it is that if it's true that only 13 per cent of editors are female my talk page appears to be an anomaly. Is it because of my suave masculine charm? Or is it because the females who contribute here are focused on producing high-value content such as GA/FA, as I am? Eric  Corbett  00:16, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I think its partly the second, but mainly that many of the women (not girls, women, we're all pretty much over 30) who edit aren't looking for drama or looking to "score points" so we want to make the content better and more useful. When I wanna play a MMORPG, I go play one of my MMORPGs, instead of hanging out at the dramah boards. Because you can help us with that goal, we start hanging out here, and then we just get blindsided by your boyish charm or something (err... probably more likely that we just want you to copyedit and we're not above batting our eyelashes or whatever it takes...) Ealdgyth - Talk 00:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Batting your eyelashes always gets the job done. I'm not sexist, but when all's said and done I am a man, for better or for worse. I think I said to SandyG some time ago that I always feel more comfortable having some idea of who it is I'm talking to. Not for any creepy reasons, it just gives me a chance to moderate my language accordingly. Eric   Corbett  00:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Eric...how do you know that your suave masculine charm isn't attracting the male editors? ;-)--Amadscientist (talk) 00:26, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh God, what a horrible thought! Eric   Corbett  00:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Popularity has its price. :-)--Amadscientist (talk) 00:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * "it just gives me a chance to moderate my language accordingly" (Woman speaking here):  I hope you mean you don't worry about letting rip with a few well-chosen cuss words since woman will usually not mind one bit.  Gandydancer (talk) 01:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me assure you Gandydancer that if I thought you were an asshole I wouldn't hesitate to tell you so, woman or not. It's just that I seem to have fallen out with rather few female editors but quite a few male ones. Compounding the problem of course is that the male editors tend to be administrators. Eric   Corbett  01:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * My sisters can cuss up a storm and back. But one actually told an admiral that if he had to use words like that he obviously had a limited vocabulary. She can get away with sh...stuff like that.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * One of my sisters tells a great joke about muff diving, with all the actions and a great finale. Eric   Corbett  02:07, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

(Not to follow the muff diving reference but not to interrupt the flow above) It's absolute BS that only 15% of editors are female. The WMF couldn't do a valid survey if their inflated salaries depended on it; it's merely a bandwagon they've decided to jump on, since they haven't found a way to force us all to reveal our names, addresses and tax brackets. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:26, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The number may be off, or an approximation, but I don't think you can claim we have numerical equality between the genders. I'm sure you saw the 2011 study ("Although this study is not scientific and has not undergone peer review"), which is, I think the best and most up-to-date "official" thing we have (I don't want to make any statements about its quality); it's here, Women and Wikimedia Survey 2011. Drmies (talk) 16:15, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It was a good illustration of the maxim, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". I don't think we have the foggiest idea of the balance of the sexes here (which in many ways is good; the principle of internet anonymity is important). Some of my anger comes from the condescension they use that laughable survey to justify; some of it comes from more recent evidence of their culpable idiocy. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

re: Bullying. It's all very well for you Outlaws and Outlaw allies, but Eric stole my lunch money and gave me a chinese burn. Send me a postal order for one shilling or I shall report it at the Prefects' Noticeboard. Keri (talk) 21:09, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Montacute House under attack
Can you keep an eye on Montacute House tonight - I won't be around this evening. It's under attack from Mabbitt and his mates again ; havingg failed to destroy the collapsed infobox they are now targeting the images. The plans need to be big enough to see what's going on, and the images are too beautiful to shrink.  Giano  16:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

BracketBot
Hard to spot sometimes, but it's usually right: this edit triggered this warning because it needed this correction.&mdash;Kww(talk) 03:40, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Fatinitza
Thank you for the copyedits! Adam Cuerden (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You're welcome, looks like the makings of a decent article. Given the discussion taking place about whether or not to include GAs in the DYK main page slot I was simply curious to see whether any of the current crop of DYKs would even be close to meeting the GA criteria. Eric   Corbett  19:02, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I like to think many of mine would, if I could ever work what the GA criteria were in practice. For example the recent Gold glass or Brescia Casket. I'm sure there are GAs worse than Lapidary (text) of last week or Powder flask which I'm just going to nominate. Johnbod (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you're right. Eric   Corbett  21:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC)