User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 20

Kvassay Jenő
of Kvassay Jenő resulted in a misnested tag for &lt;i> and a missing end tag for &lt;i>. I noticed that the documentation for Template:Redirect category shell mentions parameters named 1 and 2 but not h, but when I changed the h parameter to a 1, it caused new problems, and I don't understand what's going on, so I'm sending it back to you to see if you can fix it. —09:23, 4 June 2020 (UTC)Anomalocaris (talk)
 * not sure what caused that but I think it's fixed. I just used the text from the Hungarian name template rather than the template itself. Checked the html source and it now appears to be okay. Thank you for showing me this!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 20:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, the lint errors are gone, so thank you for fixing it. If you edited any other redirects in a similar way, they might need a similar fix. I came to this redirect because it was listed at Lint errors: Misnested tags in the Article namespace, and according to Outstanding linter errors on enwiki, there are 6,885 Misnested tags in the Article namespace; the count based on a maximum of 20 per article. —Anomalocaris (talk) 21:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Pleasure!  Paine 

Editing news 2020 #2 – Quick updates
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This edition of the Editing newsletter includes information the Talk pages project, an effort to help contributors communicate on wiki more easily. The central project page is on MediaWiki.org.


 * Reply tool : This is available as a Beta Feature at the four partner wikis (Arabic, Dutch, French, and Hungarian Wikipedias). The Beta Feature will get new features soon.  The new features include writing comments in a new visual editing mode and pinging other users by typing  . You can test the new features on the Beta Cluster.  Some other wikis will have a chance to try the Beta Feature in the coming months.
 * New requirements for user signatures : Soon, users will not be able to save invalid custom signatures in Special:Preferences. This will reduce signature spoofing, prevent page corruption, and make new talk page tools more reliable.  Most editors will not be affected.
 * New discussion tool : The Editing team is beginning work on a simpler process for starting new discussions.   You can see the initial design on the project page.
 * Research on the use of talk pages : The Editing team worked with the Wikimedia research team to study how talk pages help editors improve articles.  We learned that new editors who use talk pages make more edits to the main namespace than new editors who don't use talk pages.

– Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:11, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for keeping your cool when all about you were losing theirs. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:51, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Unlike RK, I'm at a loss for words. Thank you for the "If—fy" link!  Paine   15:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

New Page Reviewer newsletter June 2020
Hello ,

NPP Sorting can be a great way to find pages needing new page patrolling that match your strengths and interests. Using ORES, it divides articles into topics such as Literature or Chemistry and on Geography. Take a look and see if you can find time to patrol a couple pages a day. With over 10,000 pages in the queue, the highest it's been since ACPERM, your help could really make a difference. In late February, Google added 5 new languages to Google Translate: Kinyarwanda, Odia (Oriya), Tatar, Turkmen and Uyghur. This expands our ability to find and evaluate sources in those languages.
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 * Also at the Village Pump is a discussion about limiting participation at Articles for Deletion discussion.
 * A proposed new speedy deletion criteria for certain kinds of redirects ended with no consensus.
 * Also ending with no change was a proposal to change how we handle certain kinds of vector images.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 10271 Low – 4991 High – 10271

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replied
respected admin i have replied to your query raised after answering my request on edit article heretalk page zorawar singh kalhuria --Loneltrussia (talk) 15:48, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you,, very much for your respectful discussion; however, I am not a admin, just a regular editor like you who can edit extended-confirmed-protected pages like Zorawar Singh Kahluria. Also, when you ping another user the way you pinged me on the article's talk page, there is automatic notification when you sign and save your post, so there is no need for you to also notify me here on my talk page. Of course, you are always welcome to come to my talk page for any reason. It's just for your information that a link to my user name is enough to notify me. I am notified by the Wikipedia notification system in the same manner as you will be notified of this my response to you.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 16:31, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

oh sorry buddy my only intention was too avoid the confusion and make it clear in article ,like in countries like india people usually misjudge the the thing like in this line  is a general of sikh empire  and thought he is a sikh because i faced the this situation where people just do google then show screenshot of this to me and say he is general in sikh empire so he is sikh, although he doesn't became sikh by these things but it creates the confusion like thing. i have seen people on twitter saying he is sikh by religion by  just refering the first line they don't even understand that ,hopefully my only aim was to clear doubt from peoples mind who dont read full article where in early life and careers section it is mentioned that he is born in hindu kalhuria family. iam now just saying that can you just add the term dogra in the first line without removing anything from article. this will avoid mislead what people got usually beacuse i see people on internet who got misleaded by article's first line .and for checking the word dogra you can check refernce attached to article. --Loneltrussia (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Bold in the opening of an animal article
Hi, I personally agree with [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Redback_spider&type=revision&diff=965305512&oldid=962137556 this edit]. However, WikiProject Animals says not to do this (although it's ok for plant articles). Peter coxhead (talk) 18:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I wonder why the WikiProject insists on that? There is usually a redirect at the scientific name, which means that science-inclined readers might very well type the Genus species name into a search engine, and on Wikipedia that often takes them to the common name article. Following the principle of least astonishment for readers, redirect titles really should be in boldtype so readers will more easily and readily know why they landed on a title they did not type into the search engine. That's the way I've been doing this for many years, and I think that paragraph on the WikiProject page does not follow the least astonishment principle. Thank you, Peter, for letting me know!  P.I. Ellsworth    ed.  put'r there 23:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, I agree with you entirely. I think the reason is that editors dislike the continuous bold in something like "redback spider (Latrodectus hasseltii)" or "Latrodectus hasseltii (redback spider)", believing that it doesn't make it clear that there are two names. However, this was already the policy when I started editing spider articles (mostly I stick to plants). So I usually write something like "redback spider, scientific name Latrodectus hasseltii" or "Latrodectus hasseltii, known as the redback spider". It's very rare that anyone changes this to the WP:ANIMALS preferred format. Peter coxhead (talk) 05:42, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry about that
Hey sorry about undoing your edit on the Labyrinth EP page, I completely forgot I was on the album page and not the single page. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 00:37, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's all good,, and thank you for coming to my talk page!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 00:38, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – July 2020
News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2020).

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Arbitration
 * Following the banning of an editor by the WMF last year, the Arbitration Committee resolved to hold an RfC regarding on-wiki harassment. The RfC has been posted at Arbitration Committee/Anti-harassment RfC and is open to comments from the community.
 * The Medicine case was closed, with a remedy authorizing standard discretionary sanctions for all discussions about pharmaceutical drug prices and pricing and for edits adding, changing, or removing pharmaceutical drug prices or pricing from articles.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Government of Victoria RM
Hey there! I saw that you closed the RM for Government of Victoria as having no consensus, but as per the previous comment from an uninvolved editor, there was consensus to move the article - the only thing that needed discussing was exacts of the target title (capitalisation of "State Government"), which was actually agreed on. I don't really want to go down the rabbit hole that is move reviews, but I feel as though this was possibly overlooked, especially considering that there was an already declared consensus for moving the article, and there was unanimous support after that for the target title (Victoria State Governent). ItsPugle (talk) 14:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey there, ! I just looked again, and unfortunately, I still see no real agreement about renaming the page. Even though you and others responded well to opposers and to those who disagreed with the proper noun phrase idea, you didn't seem to change their minds, that is, no one actually changed their mind about either leaving the title as is or moving it to a title different from the one you requested. I'm sorry but I definitely did not see "unanimous support" for any title that was discussed. So the choices, based upon the discussion and timestamps are twofold... 1) leave things as they are, look for ways to strengthen your arguments and try again in a few months to request a page move, or 2) even though the RM is about a month old and was relisted once about three weeks ago, the discussion can be relisted once more to see if a consensus can be garnered after another week. Which way do you want to go? Leave it as is? or reopen?  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 22:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think, if it's okay, that relisting it might be worthwhile. I'll ping all those who have engaged with it to try and stimulate some more discussion, too. Oh, and when I mean unanimious support, I mean my little comment underneath ProcrastinatingReader's (which really was only two people, so not quite unanimous in the grand scheme!). The last opposition to the RM was also a bit funky, since they said some factually incorrect things - but they didn't get back to me so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ItsPugle (talk) 07:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * the closure has been overturned and the request has been relisted. Thank you for coming to my talk page!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 18:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being such a great wikipedian! <3 ItsPugle (talk) 11:25, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Editing news 2020 #3


Seven years ago this week, the Editing team made the visual editor available by default to all logged-in editors using the desktop site at the English Wikipedia. Here's what happened since its introduction:


 * The 50 millionth edit using the visual editor on desktop was made this year. More than 10 million edits have been made here at the English Wikipedia.
 * More than 2 million new articles have been created in the visual editor. More than 600,000 of these new articles were created during 2019.
 * Almost 5 million edits on the mobile site have been made with the visual editor. Most of these edits have been made since the Editing team started improving the mobile visual editor in 2018.
 * The proportion of all edits made using the visual editor has been increasing every year.
 * Editors have made more than 7 million edits in the 2017 wikitext editor, including starting 600,000 new articles in it. The 2017 wikitext editor is VisualEditor's built-in wikitext mode.  You can enable it in your preferences.
 * On 17 November 2019, the first edit from outer space was made in the mobile visual editor.
 * In 2019, 35% of the edits by newcomers, and half of their first edits, were made using the visual editor. This percentage has been increasing every year since the tool became available.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 02:06, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Loath
*Reopen and relist. Going out on a limb here, because it appears to me that the closer did not correctly assess the validity of the oppose rationales. "Clearly the primary topic"? |Fuel_dispenser|Turbopump Page views say no, as well as long-term significance says no. So apologies to the closer, and believe me I'm never happy with an editor who fails to discuss these first with the closer, but this looks like an "Oh what the heck, five opposes so 'not moved' just MUST be the right way to go," kind of non-closure. There is no PTOPIC here, so the dab page is needed and should be at the base name. (imho)  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 05:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think a "reopen" is inappropriate, and even before the close, a "relist" would have been inappropriate. to begin with, the RM rationale is poor, below standard.  "... I want to hear from other contributors. I don't really understand ..." is not a considered proposal for consensus decision making, it should have been a talk page post.  Second, the editor who made a comment motivating the RM gave a very strong negative !vote.  Third, the discussion already had four respondents in SNOW opposition.  I am normally a strong proponent of good explanations for closes, but not in the case of unanimous opposition.  It is not OK for the nominator to demand answers to their comments just because they initiated a formal RM process.  There is room for further discussion, but the case does not look to be there that anything needs urgent fixing, and it looks like there is no better outcome than the status quo sitting in the wings.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:01, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You know how loath I am to disagree with you, SmokeyJoe; however, in this case all of the oppose rationales were either specific about the topic presently at the base name as the primary topic, non-specific at all in terms as to why they opposed, or they merely agreed with the above opposers. So they all should have been thrown out. The page should have been renamed with a qualifier and the dab page moved to the base name. Poor closure! Let's say I had closed the RM, discounted the opposes and moved the pages. Now let's say one of the opposers opened an MRV against my closure. Wikipedia is not a democracy! Would you have BADNAC'd my close? or would you have seen through the poor oppose rationales and endorsed my close?  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 06:37, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Paine Ellsworth, I hope "loath" is not really the right word. I actually enjoy disagreeing with you, because I see evidence that we both learn from the experience. The evidence in not to be found in answers given, but subsequent behaviours. I hope I don't upset you with bluntness; I could word things with more gentility, but if I did I would write a lot less.

If the closer were to have thrown out the "oppose" !votes, and moved per a line of logic, I would be very quick with a knee-jerk "WP:Supervote". A thought-test of this is: if the closer were to make that !vote, would the "oppose" !voters reverse their !votes? In the above case, I do not believe it would be likely.

I believe that a closer should take a very conservative role in respecting the prevailing discussion. If that discussion is misguided, the answer is to steer it better by participating. I think this is essential, not for the correct decision, but for the community to feel that they are respected in community consensus decision making. In these review forums, I deliberately resist looking though the mud of poor arguments to see the truth.

Should my cry be "BADNAC" or "Supervote" or "Bad close"? I am not sure, but I like "BADNAC" for the excellent advice for NACers that can be found at WP:BADNAC. A BADNAC would not be a good close if it were performed by an admin. What's different is that admins seem to take being taken to DRV or MR much more seriously than NACers, and they don't seem to need to read the advice. Sometimes, admins make closes that look like arbitrary decisions, but when pushed, and it takes DRV or MR to do the pushing, they are able to justify themselves, where NACers sometimes don't even answer.

Where to go from here? I suggest that if you really think there is a good justification to the move in the face of four firmly states oppose !votes, then, after a pause, you should launch a new RM with a better rationale. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's all good,, it's all good. So you think that if as many as five editors oppose a page move, in which the only support is the editor who requested the move, and all five rationales go against community consensus (which they did), we should just coddle them and allow their poor judgement to stand? Apparently, judging by the other endorsers and the MRV closer, that's just what we should do. I've already considered opening a new RM, but with a firm not moved and a firmer MRV endorsement, it will be at least a year before there is any possibility of success. I was just being ironic, sarcastic me with the "loath" comment, so don't go getting all insecure on me (heh). It's all good my friend, all good!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:53, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Just coddle them? No.  Firstly, I think the root cause of failure was the poor RM opening statement.  Poor opening statements seem to invoke knee jerk opposition. When five people in a row are wrong, perhaps knee jerk groupthinking, then the answer is to speak up, not supervote.  If it’s too late, as it was in this case as MR does not welcome new arguments, then I think there’s good applicable advice in WP:RENOM. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:30, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm back/thanks for checking on me
Hey, thanks for checking in on me (like a year and a half ago). Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner; I just really needed a complete break from my online communities for a while. I'm doing good now though. Jackmcbarn (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * that is so good to hear! and thank you beyond words for letting me know!  Paine  20:29, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – August 2020
News and updates for administrators from the past month (July 2020). Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Red Phoenix
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Oversight changes
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Guideline and policy news
 * There is an open request for comment to decide whether to increase the minimum duration a sanction discussion has to remain open (currently 24 hours).
 * Speedy deletion criterion T2 (template that misrepresents established policy) has been repealed following a request for comment.
 * Speedy deletion criterion X2 (pages created by the content translation tool) has been repealed following a discussion.
 * There is a proposal to restrict proposed deletion to confirmed users.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:21, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 2 August 2020
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Requested move of Dylan Brady (producer)
"6 months to a year" moratorium is pretty arbitrary, and certainly not meriting a procedural close. I have attended many RMs where an unsuccessful request was followed mere days later by a successful one. Schierbecker (talk) 03:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Waiting times are just a measure of success, that is, the longer one waits, the more likely the move request will succeed. When the decision is "no consensus", the suggested waiting time is 2 to 6 months, and when the decision is "moved" or "not moved", then the waiting time is 6 months to a year. Anything less and many editors consider it disruptive and a waste of time. There is nothing hard and fast about this kind of moratorium, so if you want to risk the disdain of other editors, then go ahead and reopen.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 03:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

"Great ape" and "Great apes" redirects
I know I still have much to learn about the definition of printability, as its practical application by other editors has not always been consistent.

As I understand, and  cannot both be printworthy even though they are redirects to scientific names, since they would not be given separate listings in a print encyclopedia. I noticed that the former was being categorized as both printworthy and unprintworthy, so I fixed it.

The issue I have is with the choice of the plural title as (more) printworthy: It seems contrary to the spirit of WP:SINGULAR, especially the "Horse/Horses" example given within. I say "spirit" instead of "letter" because I know WP:SINGULAR is about article titles and does not aim to prescribe printability of redirects.

To what extent does the guideline about singular titles extend to redirects? Are certain biological classifications treated specially?

Also, why must the less-printworthy title be explicitly unprintworthy? Isn't this a rare case in which "printability unknown" could be acceptable? Alternatively, should there be a concept of multiple levels of printworthy, paralleling the distinction between unprintworthy for which links "should be updated" and  not necessarily so? Thanks for enlightening me... --SoledadKabocha (talk) 05:19, 7 August 2020 (UTC)


 * printability/printworthiness often escapes us all, so none of us can expect to be right about it in every case. Having said that, I usually call printable a redirect that is actually mentioned in a hatnote, as is . So if the dab page had been left at and "Great ape" was in the Hominidae hatnote instead of "Great apes", then "Great ape" would have been the printable redirect. Has nothing to do with plurals being printable and singulars not, or vice versa.


 * The rest of your inquiry has to do with the final reason for printability. A redirect is printable if it belongs in a printed version of Wikipedia, and is unprintable if it does not belong. There is no in-between, no gray area that I can see. Unknown printability helps no one, so somebody should make the choice, sometimes based on only a "best guess" scenario. Most of the time, other capitalization is just as unprintworthy as miscapitalization, and there may be exceptions to both, I would think. Which of those "multiple levels of printworthy" would be expected to be used in a printed version and which would not?


 * For several years now, I have honestly appreciated and revered your participation in redirect categorizing, so please don't misunderstand me when I say that printability can already be really complicated, and I see no good reason to make it even more complex. Thank you beyond words for asking!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 06:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I was grasping at straws in the last paragraph, as the comment was meant to suggest. I was not expecting to have made any logically valid excuse. I am aware that before replying, you removed one of the templates; my bad for not seeing myself that it was outdated.
 * My original thought about multiple levels of printability was meant to parallel the "Appendix" namespace used on Wiktionary and some non-English Wikipedias. I was also toying with the idea of proposing WP1.0 to split the Redirect assessment class into multiple classes, even if just replicating the current definition of printability, but I realize that is neither relevant to this discussion nor has any chance of gaining consensus. --SoledadKabocha (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

"Template:Malaysian name" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Template:Malaysian name. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 August 10 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- AquaDTRS (talk) 00:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 August 2020
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Editing news 2020 #4
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Reply tool


The Reply tool  has been available as a Beta Feature at the Arabic, Dutch, French and Hungarian Wikipedias since 31 March 2020. The first analysis showed positive results.


 * More than 300 editors used the Reply tool at these four Wikipedias. They  posted more than 7,400 replies during the study period.
 * Of the people who posted a comment with the Reply tool, about 70% of them used the tool multiple times. About 60% of them used it on multiple days.
 * Comments from Wikipedia editors are positive. One said, أعتقد أن الأداة تقدم فائدة ملحوظة؛ فهي تختصر الوقت لتقديم رد بدلًا من التنقل بالفأرة إلى وصلة تعديل القسم أو الصفحة، التي تكون بعيدة عن التعليق الأخير في الغالب، ويصل المساهم لصندوق التعديل بسرعة باستخدام الأداة.  ("I think the tool has a significant impact; it saves time to reply while the classic way is to move with a mouse to the Edit link to edit the section or the page which is generally far away from the comment. And the user reaches to the edit box so quickly to use the Reply tool.")

The Editing team released the Reply tool as a Beta Feature at eight other Wikipedias in early August. Those Wikipedias are in the Chinese, Czech, Georgian, Serbian, Sorani Kurdish, Swedish, Catalan, and Korean languages. If you would like to use the Reply tool at your wiki, please tell User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF).

The Reply tool is still in active development. Per request from the Dutch Wikipedia and other editors, you will be able to customize the edit summary. (The default edit summary is "Reply".) A "ping" feature is available in the Reply tool's visual editing mode. This feature searches for usernames. Per request from the Arabic Wikipedia, each wiki will be able to set its own preferred symbol for pinging editors. Per request from editors at the Japanese and Hungarian Wikipedias, each wiki can define a preferred signature prefix in the page MediaWiki:Discussiontools-signature-prefix. For example, some languages omit spaces before signatures. Other communities want to add a dash or a non-breaking space.

New requirements for user signatures

 * The new requirements for custom user signatures began on 6 July 2020. If you try to create a custom signature that does not meet the requirements, you will get an error message.
 * Existing custom signatures that do not meet the new requirements will be unaffected temporarily . Eventually, all custom signatures will need to meet the new requirements. You can check your signature and see lists of active editors whose custom signatures need to be corrected.  Volunteers have been contacting editors who need to change their custom signatures.  If you need to change your custom signature, then please read the help page.

Next: New discussion tool
Next, the team will be working on a tool for quickly and easily starting a new discussion section to a talk page. To follow the development of this new tool, please put the New Discussion Tool project page on your watchlist.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Teahouse ping list
Hello Paine Ellsworth! I am compiling a list/directory of editors with subject-specific expertise at User:Usedtobecool/Tea intended to be used by regular hosts at the Teahouse, to ping editors to help answer queries that are about to get archived unanswered. I was wondering if you would be interested in being listed? I thought of you for questions about "editing templates" and complex "wiki markup" that regular hosts have trouble figuring out; should not occur more than a few times a year. If you are interested, please check the list out, and add yourself to any and all categories you would be able to help with. Because teahouse posts get archived within 3 days, the more editors listed, the better chance there would be of finding an editor actively editing at the time assistance is required. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 20:16, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for thinking of me, ! It would be a pleasure to help when I can. I have a lot on my plate right now, online and off, so there might be times when my availability is low. Thanks again!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 20:22, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I have added you accordingly. The intention is to make sure you don't get any pings except when your contribution history indicates you would be available. Hopefully, it will work as intended most of the time, and at the very least, at least a few posts that would otherwise go unanswered will be covered after the list becomes available. That no editor can always be available is the fundamental assumption; so I would not worry about it. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 11:09, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2020
News and updates for administrators from the past month (August 2020). Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Eddie891
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Angela • Jcw69 • Just Chilling • Philg88 • Viajero

CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg SQL

Guideline and policy news
 * Following a request for comment, the minimum length for site ban discussions was increased to 72 hours, up from 24.
 * A request for comment is ongoing to determine whether paid editors must or should use the articles for creation process.
 * A request for comment is open to resolve inconsistencies between the draftification and alternative to deletion processes.

Arbitration
 * A request for comment is open to provide an opportunity to amend the structure, rules, and procedures of the 2020 English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee election and to resolve any issues not covered by existing rules.
 * An open request for comment asks whether active Arbitrators may serve on the Trust and Safety Case Review Committee or Ombudsman commission.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

See You When I Am Famous
Hi Paine Ellsworth -- I know you have a lot going on, so no rush to answer this. But I'm curious about your close at Talk:See You When I Am Famous. While I know the numbers (7 support, 4 oppose) are one of those borderline situations that could be a move or a no consensus if the !votes all use strong arguments, I personally found the oppose rationales extraordinarily weak and all relying on ignoring aspects of the guidelines they cited (obviously my bias is clear!). So I'd be curious which !votes you found held water, as it was somewhat of an unusual case of the oppose !votes each having different rationales. The list below is certainly my biased rewording, but would still appreciate your thoughts: Appreciate your thoughts and time.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:44, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The title is a stylism and therefore should not be used (even though the cited guideline in that !vote clearly states that when sources are clear in their use of a style it should be used, regardless of style)
 * Sources are all too recent, so we should assume they will change in the future. Just because all sources use the proposed title, we cannot assume they meant to do so as they probably copied and pasted (this one was, quite frankly just silly)
 * Sources are too low quality, so even though they are consistent we should ignore them, contrary to what the stylism guidelines say to do (is there any precedent for that? if sources are too low quality then the article should be deleted, otherwise I see no indication in our titling guidelines that we should ignore them).
 * The repeated ! is technically the same as a name without any punctuation, so the shorter version is concise and therefore preferred even if though it is not commonly used in sources.
 * Be honest with you,, I saw two relistings and at first was ready to call it a "rough consensus to rename"; however, the more I thought about it, the more it seemed that the existing sources indicated that it was just "too soon" to go with the 12 exclamation points. It was then that I knew that if I closed the RM as "moved", it would be construed as a supervote and a badnac. You did provide some strong arguments and rebuttals, so if you think it would be warranted, I would be happy to reopen it and relist a third time. At this point, it could go either way but it's iffy. I do think that if we wait two or three months, the sources and the args could be made even stronger during that period.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 19:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Appreciate the reply. I'm admittedly somewhat confused by the "too soon" argument -- it would be one thing if it was a proposal to move away from the title used in sources, but if we are arguing it is too soon to tell what the long term title would be, wouldn't the only alternative be to use the title based on current sourcing, vs. using the one not used in sourcing? It seems fairly WP:CRYSTALBALL to say that it's too soon to know what sources will say and that in the meantime we should remain at a title that would only be acceptable if sources change their approach in the future.
 * I'm also shocked you aren't an admin, you are one of those cases where I had just assumed (although all I had to do was read your page where you actually explain)! And I agree relisting won't necessarily be best because I don't want to come across as just shopping for a different closure, but I'd argue that, when limiting it to arguments based on what our guidelines and policy actually say, the consensus is actually clear.--Yaksar (let's chat) 19:55, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So sorry didn't mean to be confusing. "Too soon" was just the impression I got from the participants in the RM. That's not to say that I'm crystal balling it; actually just the opposite. None of us can say, so we can only hope that the sources will increase in both number and quality. As for adminship, I do respect it and have been helped a zillion times by some pretty awesome admins, but I do not want to be one. I don't know how much time I have left and I'd like to spend it doing as much of what I want to do as I can. Thank you for the kind thoughts, though!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 20:54, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I will probably circle back and re-propose in a few months. And I totally get that, if you enjoy doing what you do then why complicate it!--Yaksar (let's chat) 23:34, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Can you move these?
Hi User:Paine Ellsworth can you move Gauhar Khan Tanaaz Irani & Sanjjanaa page now as it’s been a week. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:4c8:54:9b5e:d9ed:c00e:4bbe:846b (talk) 08:38, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, move requests should go a full week, seven days, to give any interested editors time to !vote and leave their reasons. Two of those have gone about five days and one is only four days old, so forgive me because I don't like to close requests too early. I'll keep an eye on them, so please don't be impatient. Thank you for asking!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 09:29, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * PS. Also two things... please be sure to sign all your talk page questions and comments with 4 tildes, as in ~. And please consider becoming a registered user. Thanks again! PS left by  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 09:42, 14 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi User:Paine Ellsworth it’s been 7 days for the request move for Gauhar Khan and Tanaaz Irani. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:4c8:55:da89:7c2a:37bd:f8e4:ebc5 (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi User:Paine Ellsworth no one has moved Gauhar and Tannaz page yet it’s been 7 days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a01:4c8:55:da89:44af:86b4:d57c:9b4b (talk) 08:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It causes me extra work to add your signature to your posts, so please please please sign your posts on my talk page!!!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 08:10, 17 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Why is no one moving Gauhar Khan Tanaaz Irani page as it’s been 7 days since it has been requested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:55:DA89:F5BC:59E9:CFB4:CCBA (talk) 11:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * There are several other move requests ahead of them that are backlogged in the list.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 12:12, 17 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Please is there any chance if you could go these two first please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4C8:55:DA89:1811:2C26:54DA:9EB0 (talk) 14:02, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Please be patient, there is no deadline. Because you have solicited me to close them, it would be inappropriate for me to do so. Forgive me please because you will have to wait for another editor to close or relist those requests.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:24, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Move on Israel–United Arab Emirates agreement
While I understand the first procedural close even though I disagree with it (on Bahrain-Israel normalization agreement the closer had no problem in reformatting the dash) your argument on the second close I do not think was done correctly. Simply because there was a consensus for something else doesn't preclude consensus changing ("Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments"). In fact, it was about to as shown by the unanimous support on my first move request. Very likely, nobody thought of the name at the time, so while there was strong support for Israel–United Arab Emirates agreement at the time most people didn't know of the other option. Because of that, I'm thinking of bringing that move to WP:Move review unless you wouldn't mind reopening the move request. Zoozaz1 (talk) 13:24, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * While Move review is certainly an option, your argument would probably just get bogged down there due to the sluggish nature of Move review. I understand what you are trying to accomplish... you have a new argument that has not yet been considered. So I see no reason why that new argument shouldn't get a chance. I'll be happy to reopen.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:31, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd appreciate that, thanks for the quick reply. Zoozaz1 (talk) 13:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Favor: incompatible redirects
Might I bug you for a favor? I'd like to add some checks to Twinkle's redirect tagging, to prevent incompatible tags from being added. Some of these are obvious to me — R printworthy and R unprintworthy are the easiest examples — but others get a little confusing, and I'm not entirely sure how strict to be on things like miscapitalization and short names. You're who I'd first think of for advice, so I wonder what you'd suggest. The current list in Twinkle is below:


 * 1) R from acronym
 * 2) R from initialism
 * 3) R from MathSciNet abbreviation
 * 4) R from NLM abbreviation
 * 5) R from CamelCase
 * 6) R from other capitalisation
 * 7) R from miscapitalisation
 * 8) R from modification
 * 9) R from plural
 * 10) R to plural
 * 11) R from verb
 * 12) R from adjective
 * 13) R from alternative spelling
 * 14) R from ASCII-only
 * 15) R from diacritic
 * 16) R to diacritic
 * 17) R from misspelling
 * 18) R from alternative name
 * 19) R from ambiguous sort name
 * 20) R from former name
 * 21) R from historic name
 * 22) R from incomplete name
 * 23) R from incorrect name
 * 24) R from less specific name
 * 25) R from long name
 * 26) R from more specific name
 * 27) R from short name
 * 28) R from sort name
 * 29) R from synonym
 * 30) R from birth name
 * 31) R from given name
 * 32) R from name with title
 * 33) R from person
 * 34) R from personal name
 * 35) R from pseudonym
 * 36) R from surname
 * 37) R from drug trade name
 * 38) R from filename
 * 39) R from molecular formula
 * 40) R to scientific name
 * 41) R from scientific name
 * 42) R from alternative scientific name
 * 43) R from scientific abbreviation
 * 44) R to monotypic taxon
 * 45) R from monotypic taxon
 * 46) R taxon with possibilities
 * 47) R from name and country
 * 48) R from more specific geographic name
 * 49) R to anchor
 * 50) R avoided double redirect
 * 51) R from file metadata link
 * 52) R to list entry
 * 53) R to section
 * 54) R from shortcut
 * 55) R from template shortcut
 * 56) R from ambiguous term
 * 57) R to disambiguation page
 * 58) R from incomplete disambiguation
 * 59) R from incorrect disambiguation
 * 60) R from other disambiguation
 * 61) R from unnecessary disambiguation
 * 62) R from duplicated article
 * 63) R with history
 * 64) R from move
 * 65) R from merge
 * 66) R from remote talk page
 * 67) R to category namespace
 * 68) R to help namespace
 * 69) R to main namespace
 * 70) R to portal namespace
 * 71) R to project namespace
 * 72) R to user namespace
 * 73) R from book
 * 74) R from album
 * 75) R from song
 * 76) R from television episode
 * 77) R from fictional character
 * 78) R from fictional element
 * 79) R from fictional location
 * 80) R to article without mention
 * 81) R to decade
 * 82) R from domain name
 * 83) R from phrase
 * 84) R from list topic
 * 85) R from member
 * 86) R to related topic
 * 87) R from related word
 * 88) R from school
 * 89) R from subtopic
 * 90) R to subtopic
 * 91) R from Unicode character
 * 92) R from Unicode code
 * 93) R with possibilities
 * 94) R from ISO 4 abbreviation
 * 95) R from ISO 639 code
 * 96) R printworthy
 * 97) R unprintworthy

Anything that jumps out to you, or any suggestions at all would be most welcome! ~ Amory  (u • t • c)
 * thank you, it's an honor to try to help! I have the same problem sometimes, because the template and maintenance category creators were not always clear about their intent. So when I'm confused by an rcat application, I check the documentation. If that doesn't help me, I try the category to get examples of previous usage. The printworthiness rcats are for me the hardest – it's often a judgement call as to what is or is not printworthy, and in those cases I take my best guess; see WP:PRINTABILITY.
 * It might also be important to note that those two rcats are sometimes applied automatically, such as how R with possibilities auto-applies R printworthy. The printworthiness rcat template should still be added to the redirect so the information provided by it can be read by editors. Also, care must be taken not to apply the opposite printworthiness template. An example would be to tag a redirect with R with possibilities and R unprintworthy. If that is done, then the redirect would populate both and.
 * R from miscapitalisation can be a little tricky as opposed to R from other capitalisation. I use the latter for mainspace-only titles that might work as article titles and are not obvious miscaps. And I only use miscaps for those redirect titles in any namespace that are obviously incorrect capitalizations.
 * R from short name can be used with human-name redirects that are either short forms of a person's name or they include initials. That template is also used with any shorter name of a non-human title that may also be commonly searched. Reverse all that for R from long name.
 * Another tricky thing is I try not to include a parent category when a subcategory works best. An example would be  (disambiguation) redirects that should be tagged with R to disambiguation page rather than its parent R from unnecessary disambiguation, which is used on its talk page if it exists.
 * I hope this has been helpful, and if you think of anything else, I'll try my best.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 17:26, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's helpful! When I get a chance to think through it, I'll let you know what I come up with, but this is helpful. ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 18:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * And thank you for asking! I did extensive work a few years back on the /doc pages of the rcats, so hopefully they can be of help to you, as well as the existing examples in each category. Please let me know if you have any other specific examples I can help you with!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 18:47, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Serbian military
Hello! I hope its fine that I ask for your assistance directly here, instead of filing a formal edit request at Template talk:Country data Serbia. Can you please make the following changes from the flags to the seals:

1. File:Emblem of the Serbian Armed Forces.svg for {armed forces|Serbia}}

2. File:Emblem of the Serbian Land Forces.svg for {army|Serbia}}

3. File:RFVSAmblem.png for {naval|Serbia}}

4. File:Serbian Air Force and Air Defence coat of arms.svg for {air force|Serbia}} (as well as chaging its link to Serbian Air Force and Air Defence, to avoid the Serbian Air Force redirect)

Sundostund (talk) 18:10, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * first glance it seems "naval" and "navy" yield odd results, so I will do a little research and then make changes. Thanks again!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 18:17, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅, and since there seems to be an oddity in the way the Country showdata documentation template depicts "navy" vs. "naval", it was decided to make them both the same (if one is removed, then it would cause problems on pages where it is transcluded). Thanks again!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 19:32, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 27 September 2020
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Administrators' newsletter – September 2020
News and updates for administrators from the past month (September 2020). Administrator changes
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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:43, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Advice
Hi Paine, the move discussion at Talk:Star Trek: Strange New Worlds (short story collection) has finally been closed, but only the short story article was moved per the closer's notes. So my main option is yet another move discussion, this time for moving Star Trek: Strange New Worlds (TV series) to Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, per WP:PTOPIC and WP:TWODABS. The alternative is to just move the article anyway, and see if it's disputed, and then hold another discussion. Any thoughts? BilCat (talk) 01:21, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
 * you could try just moving it; however, with all the ongoing controversy and the perhaps small possibility of an AfD hanging over the article, it might still be best to open an RM to move the series article to the base name. I just placed a pointer on the dab's talk page to the 12 Sept. RM so editors can find that one. Best to you!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 01:29, 10 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks. There's been no objection to the article's move to mainspace yet, but it could still happen. I'll probably give it a few days and reevaluate then. BilCat (talk) 01:35, 10 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Now Star Trek: Strange New Worlds been redirected to another DAB page. I may just have to do an RM after all. - BilCat (talk) 02:21, 10 October 2020 (UTC)


 * right there with you!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 19:24, 10 October 2020 (UTC)


 * the more I think about it, the more it seems that the move to the base name was strongly supported in your most recent move request. So I see a new RM to be redundant, and I have moved the article to the base name.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 01:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I agree, but as the proposer, I felt it would be inappropriate of me to move it or even ask someone else to do it. BilCat (talk) 01:54, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Now where's the fun in that? ;>)  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 04:23, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Sometimes you have to pick your own fun! :) BilCat (talk) 04:45, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Don't wanna get all mushy on ya, and yet I truly admire your concept of "inappropriate of me to move it or even ask someone else to do it"!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 05:04, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm still feeling my way around what being "uninvolved" means. I don't close many RMs as it would be too close to "supervoting" in most cases! I do stick my neck out on occasion though, per BOLD. BilCat (talk) 05:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

You still having "fun"? ;) BilCat (talk) 19:06, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I usually try to oblige those who come to my talk page with reversal wishes. In the case of moving the dab title to the base name, that was by overwhelming consensus, and while adhering to consensus isn't always fun, it's always the right thing to do.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 19:23, 12 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I understand. BilCat (talk) 19:29, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds
The move of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds (TV series) to Star Trek: Strange New Worlds does not have consensus in the RM you linked in your move summary. And in fact people mentioned that we should indeed keep both disambiguated. First, primary swaps instantly break both internal and external incoming links. Second, this series does not conform to WP:TVSERIES for notability/inclusion because there is not announced broadcast date (in fact, its not even in production yet). Please revert this un(der)discussed move. -- Netoholic @ 11:19, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Obviously, we disagree. I look at the most recent RM at Talk:Star Trek: Strange New Worlds (short story collection) and I see almost a SNOW consensus to rename both entries. The move made by the closer was only half of what the consensus wanted in that RM. We see only one editor, Alex 21, who out of all those supporters wanted the disambiguated title. Only one. None of the other supporters even mentioned it except to indicate their support for the proposal as requested. I don't see any broken links because the unnecessarily disambiguated title redirects to the base name. Whether or not this series conforms to a guideline supplement that has not been thoroughly vetted by the community has already been discussed and supporters in that RM did not appear to agree as to its importance. I'm sorry if you think it should be reversed, but you are so far just one voice in the wilderness, and we've all been there. There were no other editors in that RM who held the guideline supplement up higher than WP:GNG. You were the only one. We should go with the consensus on this one, . If consensus changes, then I would be happy to oblige.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 19:00, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * After reading the ensuing discussions after the page move, and being mentioned above, I can see the support for the television series being the primary topic, so I've come to support it not requiring disambiguation. Makes sense to me. Cheers. -- / Alex /21  05:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, / Alex /21  !  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 06:16, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Closing advice
Hi Paine, I've been watching Talk:FFG(X) for a few days, trying to decide how I would close it, or even if I should. Any thoughts? BilCat (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That one could use some more time to see if a consensus can emerge. I would relist it and leave a notification of the RM at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ships. That Wikiproject does not appear to have automatic notification of page move discussions.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 18:46, 17 October 2020 (UTC)


 * How do I relist it? I've not done that before. BilCat (talk) 20:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The one I use is . That automatically signs for you, so don't leave a sig. Place one space after the original nom's/requestor's sig, then type or paste the Relisting template. That will move the RM in the log back to today's date and give it seven more days. See WP:RELIST and WP:RMCI for more details. And remember to leave a brief notification on the WikiProject's talk page to maybe help with the consensus.  P.I. Ellsworth    ed.  put'r there 21:35, 17 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks very much. BilCat (talk) 21:43, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Pleasure!  Paine   21:46, 17 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I tried adding a notification tag to WT:SHIPS, but messed it uo.somehow. Also, can you double-check the RM discussion to see if it relisted? I tried following all the instructions on the RM page and template, but I may have messed up. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 21:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That was all good! I fixed the link on the WikiProject's talk page, no big deal, and as you can see at this link, the RM has been relisted. Thank you for all your help with RMs!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 05:06, 18 October 2020 (UTC)


 * And thanks also. BilCat (talk) 05:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * just a gentle reminder that after you or another closer has relisted a move request, if and when a consensus does emerge, the request can be closed at any time. As a rule you don't have to wait another full seven days if involved editors come to consensus.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 16:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I finally decided that I couldn't remain neutral in a close with all of the issues I felt needed to be addressed, and would end up supervoting. Since Requested moves/Closing instructions allows a relister to subsequently participate, that's what I've done. Thanks again. BilCat (talk) 05:28, 20 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Several more users have contributed to the discussion since I relisted it. Could you possibly look and see if you could close it? I think our discussion here has been neutral enough that you're still not involved, but if you decide you can't or don't want to close this, for whatever reason, I understand. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 02:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Ping! BilCat (talk) 22:30, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries, it's just been closed. BilCat (talk) 23:15, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Template edit request consensus
Hello, I was just looking for someone to ask this when I noticed you completed my edit request so, I was wondering if you can request template edits on a consensus based on WP:SILENT for small changes?. This applies mostly to my proposal at Graphic novel list, thanks. Terasail II &#91;Talk&#93; 01:43, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Good question, and thank you for coming to my talk page! The answer to your question lies both with you, the editor who wants to make the change, and with the editor who answers your edit request. For those instances where you are unclear whether or not other editors should have a say and WP:SILENT might or might not apply, I would suggest you make the edit request to see if the answering editor agrees or thinks a more thorough consensus is needed. So the answer to your question would be "yes". I see no reason why most small changes would require more than a consensus based on WP:SILENT. Exceptions to that would include those templates that have a large number of transclusions. Using Jarry1250's transclusion count page we see that Graphic novel list is transcluded less than 2000 times. When it surpasses 2000 usages, it will qualify as a high-use template, so it's very close to that. So some small changes might be deemed important enough to involve other editors in the decision. Again, if you aren't sure for any particular template or module, I would just make the edit request and see if it flies.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 02:52, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

 * Thank you very much, ! That is a very unusual case where the common name policy was invoked due to prevalence of the capitalized "Del" in reliable sources. I wonder what would happen if editors would get behind the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC idea of long-term significance, and that being held by the book usage of the name? Might be a first step for strengthening the supporting arguments. But then, I could be wrong. Thanks again!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 03:08, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * PS. I love baklava! PS left by  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 03:10, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Glad I found an agreeable snack for you!
 * I don't have enough of a horse in the race to pursue it significantly further; not over whether to capitalize a single letter, though I would love a source that discussed why the capitalization, of all things, was changed for the film. I just find it concerning that we seem to have a process where enough secondary sources on the spelling of a name can override a primary source. I concede that the film might be the more likely target for readers, but without the book the film wouldn't exist. Unfortunately, perhaps because of the lateness of the hour, I can't immediately come up with an analogous case of a character's name being changed for a film that ultimately became clearly more well-known than the book, which might serve as a precedent.
 * Would you mind if I asked what your feelings would be if the lead of the article included a parenthetical or perhaps a footnote noting that the novel uses a different capitalization? I feel that might be a reasonable compromise between the two sides. If that's objectionable then, as I said, I'm not invested enough to keep pushing at this one.
 * Thanks again! DonIago (talk) 05:05, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * As I did the post-closure copy editing, I came thiiiiis close )( to including a note about the lowercase spelling in the written work. Then I thought that if editors wanted that, it would have probably already been added. Perhaps lower down in the article somewhere would be more appropriate? I'm not really invested enough to know where exactly, though. I do think it's needed, if only for those readers who have read the story and perhaps wondered at the change. Most readers probably don't give it a second thought even if they do give it a first thought. If it would calm the restlessness, then it might yet be a good idea and an improvement for the article to say something about the case change from "del" to "Del", especially if a reliable source is found with the story behind the change.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 09:04, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the odds of finding a source discussing the change are...not great. :p It's possible that a note's never been added simply because it never occurred to anyone to do so, or because people simply weren't aware of the variance. I don't have enough of my wits about me to do anything further with it right now, but I may broach the question at the Talk page...unless you feel it's a good enough idea that I should be bold and just add the note and see whether anyone objects! DonIago (talk) 14:24, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * still not sure where in the article the note about the written spelling "del Mar" vs. the film's "Del Mar" should go nor how it should be phrased. If you know a way, then I would suggest doing the bold thing and BRD too if necessary. IMHO, it can only be a help for some readers.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 11:31, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Footnoted; I'll mention it on the Talk page as well. DonIago (talk) 13:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Archives template
The archives template has a lot of edgecases and parameters.. too many for me. I think I will just stick to changing less complicated templates from now on.. Ha Terasail &#91;Talk&#93; 12:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That template loop was a real head scratcher! It was a good learning experience, tho, so we don't want to let it go to waste. You're doing just fine,, just fine. Now I'm curious as to why the same code on the live page displays differently on the sandbox page? On the live page I see a blue Index link and two blue archive links below it, but on the sandbox page I see just one red archive link. Curiouser and curiouser!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * On the template pages, it shows blue links on the main template since there are dummy pages created, I assume to show an example of how it should look... But the sandbox page can't see them because it would need the Template:Archives I think in order to see those pages.. I think but am not entirely sure.. Terasail &#91;Talk&#93; 13:12, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I see that now... on this special page. They don't appear on the raw doc page either, but only on the main template page itself. That can be confusing, but I guess it's good to show what they look like on the main template page. I'm tempted to create dummy archive pages for the /doc and /sandbox, but no, that would be overkill, I think. Best to leave things as they are. It's the /testcases page that may need them most. Let me think about it.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

A kitten for you!
Thanks for helping out at Old peer review. Much appreciated :).

Tom (LT) (talk) 04:24, 1 November 2020 (UTC) 
 * Thank you very much,, I actually love kittens!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:57, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Peer review templates
Hi. Thanks for your help with Template:Old peer review. Hope my gift of a kitten above is not too much of a burden and that you're not allergic :). Would you mind if I contacted you in the future if I'm tinkering with other peer review templates and need some help? Occasionally the code is exceedingly complex and would benefit from a second set of eyes, and I really appreciated your collegiate and constructive editing style :). --Tom (LT) (talk) 04:26, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Always a pleasure to be of help, ! Contact me anytime, and I'll do what I can.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 16:00, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – November 2020
News and updates for administrators from the past month (October 2020).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg John M Wolfson
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Bduke • Nilfanion • Philosopher • Rspeer • Yunshui

Interface administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Ragesoss
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg TonyBallioni

CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg EdJohnston • Oshwah • Yamla
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Yunshui

Oversight changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Anarchyte
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Yunshui

Guideline and policy news
 * Community sanctions now authorize administrators to place under indefinite semiprotection any article on a beauty pageant, or biography of a person known as a beauty pageant contestant, which has been edited by a sockpuppet account or logged-out sockpuppet, to be logged at WP:GS/PAGEANT.

Technical news
 * Sysops will once again be able to view the deleted history of JS/CSS pages; this was restricted to interface administrators when that group was introduced.
 * Twinkle's block module now includes the ability to note the specific case when applying a discretionary sanctions block and/or template.
 * Sysops will be able to use Special:CreateLocalAccount to create a local account for a global user that is prevented from auto-creation locally (such as by a filter or range block). Administrators that are not sure if such a creation is appropriate should contact a checkuser.

Arbitration
 * The 2020 Arbitration Committee Elections process has begun. Eligible editors will be able to nominate themselves as candidates from November 8 through November 17. The voting period will run from November 23 through December 6.
 * The Anti-harassment RfC has concluded with a summary of the feedback provided.

Miscellaneous
 * A reminder that standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. (American Politics 2 Arbitration case).

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:52, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 1 November 2020
 * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Talk header italics
Template:Talk header italics has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi Paine. Any comments you'd like to add to the above re. its proposed deletion? Alternatively, would you prefer it be userfied? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi . No, I'm good. That was an experiment off of a failed proposal. Nobody seemed to like the idea of italicizing appropriate titles of talk pages, let alone doing it automatically with the Talk header template. It was fun at the time, and I learned a lot about editing templates, but I've moved on. Thank you very much for coming to my talk page with it, though!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 10:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Move review for Rise of the Evangelical Church in Latin America
An editor has asked for a Move review of Rise of the Evangelical Church in Latin America. Because you closed the move discussion for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the move review. Dereck Camacho (talk) 19:40, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Technical edit request
Hi. A deprecated source by RussiaToday was removed and a statement by Morsi is currently unsourced. Could you add this source and remove the "citation needed" tag for Mohammed Morsi's statement?:

Thanks--Watchlonly (talk) 09:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * yes, it has been added, and thank you for your improvement of that article!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 12:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Edit request on History of Israel
Hello Paine Ellsworth. Could you please answer my edit request? I've noticed you added the ref-talk there, but nobody else incorporated the information I wrote to the article itself. The text is non-controversial, historically significant and it's backed up by a good source. I hope I'm not bothering you in case you disagree with my content. Thank you very much.--Hachan Base (talk) 03:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
 * please be more specific. Your request says "next to", but that could be "before" or "after" the sentence. So do you want that text inserted before or after "many synagogues have been found dating from this period,"?  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 02:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * AFTER the sentence. Section would look like this:

After the 136 CE Jewish defeat
After suppressing the Bar Kochba revolt, the Romans exiled the Jews of Judea, but not those of Galilee. The Romans permitted a hereditary Rabbinical Patriarch (from the House of Hillel, based in Galilee), called the "Nasi" to represent the Jews in dealings with the Romans. The most famous of these was Judah haNasi, who is credited with compiling the final version of the Mishnah (a massive body of Jewish religious texts interpreting the Bible) and with strengthening the educational demands of Judaism by requiring that illiterate Jews be treated as outcasts. As a result, many illiterate Jews may have converted to Christianity. Jewish seminaries, such as those at Shefaram and Bet Shearim, continued to produce scholars. The best of these became members of the Sanhedrin, which was located first at Sepphoris and later at Tiberias. Before the Bar Kochba uprising, an estimated 2/3 of the population of Galilee and 1/3 of the coastal region were Jewish.

In the Galillee, many synagogues have been found dating from this period. However, persecution and the economic crisis that affected the Roman empire in the 3rd century led to further Jewish migration from Syria Palaestina to the more tolerant Persian Sassanid Empire, where a prosperous Jewish community with extensive seminaries existed in the area of Babylon. The burial site of the Sanhedrin leaders was discovered in 1936.
 * not for anything, and maybe it's just me, but that does not seem to flow correctly. I was actually thinking about something like the following:
 * "In the Galillee, many synagogues have been found dating from this period, and the burial site of the Sanhedrin leaders was discovered in 1936. However, persecution and the economic crisis that affected the Roman empire in the 3rd century led to further Jewish migration from Syria Palaestina to the more tolerant Persian Sassanid Empire, where a prosperous Jewish community with extensive seminaries existed in the area of Babylon."


 * so it seems that the idea in the last sentence of the original paragraph should be more closely attached to the idea in the "In the Galillee..." sentence. And then your proposed addition can come after that and be at the end of the paragraph. Doesn't that seem better to you?  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 05:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Please do that. Your version is even better. Hachan Base (talk) 06:23, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, and it's done.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 06:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you,, and thanks also for being so patient with me!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 09:48, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I once said "the one thing I learned here is patience" but am not aware of having needed it regarding you ;) - Operas: I wanted infoboxes, not side navboxes, and look at this only seven years later ;) - I will not vote for arb candidates who think that was a success of arbcom, - just common sense prevailed (but when you speak up for that sense you show battleground behaviour and need to be restricted, according to some arbs back then) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
 * By comparison, we see the one editor in the RM who suggested withdrawal. That editor used the same type of adjective in their previous rationale, called it a "selective list". And that editor was the first to firmly oppose "select operas" and the only one to suggest it "wastes the community's time". I seldom open RMs, and when I do open one I truly believe in its rightness. I was wrong this time, however, and your patience was and is appreciated!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:28, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

1926 Akron football team
Hi, I realize you were using a script for the page moves at Talk:1920 University of Akron football team, so it was likely tricky to change only one of the proposed moves, but can you confirm that there was consensus in that discussion to move 1926 Akron football team to 1926 University of Akron football team instead of 1926 Akron Zippers football team, as I suggested? Based on the sources I found from newspapers in that year, it appears the WP:COMMONNAME for the 1926 squad was "Zippers" instead of the default "University of Akron" team. Eagles 24/7 (C)  17:32, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * now that I reread the survey and the rationales of and yourself, I see good reason for the 1926 University team to go by the common name of "Zippers". So that article has been renamed. Thank you for your input!  P.I. Ellsworth    ed.  put'r there 03:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * – courtesy ping to the RM's nom.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 03:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 November 2020
 * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Edit request
Hi. Sorry to bother you. Apparently nobody is interested in making my edit request, although no specific objection was raised against it. Would you mind adding that sentence to article. I think it's relevant, neutral and pertinent to article. As usual, thanks a lot.--Watchlonly (talk) 15:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – December 2020
News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2020). Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Andrwsc • Anetode • GoldenRing • JzG • LinguistAtLarge • Nehrams2020

Interface administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Izno

Guideline and policy news
 * There is a request for comment in progress to either remove T3 (duplicated and hardcoded instances) as a speedy deletion criterion or eliminate its seven-day waiting period.

Technical news
 * Voting for proposals in the 2021 Community Wishlist Survey, which determines what software the Wikimedia Foundation's Community Tech team will work on next year, will take place from 8 December through 21 December. In particular, there are sections regarding administrators and anti-harassment.

Arbitration
 * Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee Elections is open to eligible editors until Monday 23:59, 7 December 2020 UTC. Please review the candidates and, if you wish to do so, submit your choices on the voting page.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit request
Could you take a look at my last edit request? Thank you very much.--Watchlonly (talk) 11:56, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:38, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Other edit requests (not mine)
Talk:2000 Ramallah lynching

Talk:Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People

As usual, thank you very much--Watchlonly (talk) 16:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅, and thank you so much!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 20:46, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

New Page Patrol December Newsletter
Hello ,



It has been a productive year for New Page Patrol as we've roughly cut the size of the New Page Patrol queue in half this year. We have been fortunate to have a lot of great work done by who was the reviewer of the most pages and redirects this past year. Thanks and credit go to and  who join Rosguill in repeating in the top 10 from last year. Thanks to, , and who all got the NPR permission this year and joined the top 10. Also new to the top ten is DannyS712 bot III, programmed by which has helped to dramatically reduce the number of redirects that have needed human patrolling by patrolling certain types of redirects (e.g. for differences in accents) and by also patrolling editors who are on on the redirect whitelist.
 * Year in review

has been named reviewer of the year for 2020. John has held the permission for just over 6 months and in that time has helped cut into the queue by reviewing more than 18,000 articles. His talk page shows his efforts to communicate with users, upholding NPP's goal of nurturing new users and quality over quantity.
 * Reviewer of the Year

As a special recognition and thank you has been awarded the first NPP Technical Achievement Award. His work programming the bot has helped us patrol redirects tremendously - more than 60,000 redirects this past year. This has been a large contribution to New Page Patrol and definitely is worthy of recognition.
 * NPP Technical Achievement Award

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 2262 Low – 2232 High – 10271

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here 18:16, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Edit requests
Hi. In light of the recent changes regarding Arab countries that joined the Abraham accords and established diplomatic relations with Israel, I've made three edit requests in different articles to reflect the new situation:

Talk:Israel

Talk:History of Israel

Thank you very much. Have a great week.--Watchlonly (talk) 21:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * just letting you know that I have read the above and am looking them over.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 16:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Been very busy offline, so sorry, and I see that your edits were covered, so congratulations! and Best Wishes for the holidays!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 17:46, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

••{{Font|color=white|bgcolor=Red|••{{font|color=white|🎄Merry Christmas🎄}}••}}••
""May you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a ..Merry Christmas.. and a ..Happy New Year.., whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you ..warm greetings.. for Christmas and New Year 2021." Happy editing, User:245CMR"


 * thank you very much! and we wish the Best of Everything to You and Yours!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:15, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas Paine Ellsworth!

 * Thank you very much,, and Best of Everything to You and Yours this holiday season!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 04:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Two edit requests
Could you take a look at this and this? Thanks--Watchlonly (talk) 20:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * see these have been done by other editors. Are you happy with the outcomes?  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 17:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you.--Watchlonly (talk) 19:15, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 December 2020
<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:25, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Khtsaberd/Çaylaqqala move discussion closure
Hey! I hope you looked carefully at all the arguments on the move discussion on Talk:Çaylaqqala, I've linked a previous relevant discussion in the text where an admin was consulted regarding the issue, and there has also been an issue with canvassing with regard to the move request and other connected ones: []. The recent move discussion for the connected (part of the same previous NK holdout pocket) town of Hin Tagher is also relevant for this case.

While an RfC for a naming convention for Nagorno-Karabakh may be necessary in the end as has been suggested, most of the opposing arguments in the discussion are not based on referring to Wikipedia guidelines such as WP:COMMONNAME in order to make their case but are partisan in nature, and so to argue that consensus as Wikipedia guidelines define it (Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.) has been achieved as you've written, is a bit problematic in my view - while it perhaps could be said that there is a lack of clear consensus or that a standard move request is problematic considering the contentious nature of the issue and that an RfC for a naming convention is needed. AntonSamuel (talk) 10:26, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * yes, it appears that you are correct that a naming convention, i.e. Naming conventions (Azerbaijan), for related articles should be sought by use of a Request for Comment (RfC) discussion. What I saw in this particular RM was mostly implied disagreement and opposition to your COMMONNAME rationale. Special attention will need to be paid to potential canvassing in the RfC. Until a more solid naming convention is in place, RMs such as this one will remain contentious, sometimes successful and sometimes not. If there is any particular action that you want me to take, just let me know, and please be clear and specific.  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 14:27, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply! Would you perhaps consider consulting an administrator about this particular move closure? The closure and its description: "Not moved per consensus seen below" - that there would be a consensus against the proposal, is a bit problematic in my view considering how Wikipedia guidelines and policy defines consensus - the majority of the input wasn't argumentation referring to Wikipedia guidelines regarding article names such as WP:AT/WP:COMMONNAME, and the issue with canvassing for this and other connected move requests for Nagorno-Karabakh localities should be taken into regard as well in my view. As a result of the move closure, the current situation for the two villages in the former hold out pocket in the Hadrut area is also a bit inconsistent, with "Hin Tagher" having been renamed to its common name while Khtsaberd (Çaylaqqala) hasn't been. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * would be happy to seek the guidance of admin, who is perhaps better informed in regard to these articles in question. Andrewa, perhaps you could shed light on the highest and best way forward?  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 15:08, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting! In summary I support the close.
 * I think there is no doubt that not moved was the correct close. There was certainly no consensus to move, and no prospect of achieving one, and so no point relisting. But that doesn't seem to be the issue here. The only issue seems to be, is there consensus not to move?
 * It is extremely messy. Most of the argument concerns the military position, and should be discarded. There is no appeal to wp:IAR, and so that argument cannot be taken into account in assessing this consensus. There is evidence of disruption, specifically canvassing.
 * It is a great pity that the non-arguments were not addressed as such when raised before the RM, at Talk:Çaylaqqala of course, or at Talk:Hin Tagher which is linked above. But that is water under the bridge. It shows what we are up against. The previous RM at Talk:Karakend, also linked above, was closed by myself as no consensus, with a great deal of thought, comment, and subsequent discussion. But in hindsight that did not do anything to address this. The position has subsequently deteriorated. There is no evidence of any increased awareness of Wikipedia policy on the matter, or even that some participants have bothered to read the article naming policy. If they have done so they have chosen to simply ignore it.
 * It is messy whatever we do, and a courageous close, and whether or not there are grounds for challenging the assessment of consensus, I think there is absolutely no reason to do so. Any reversal is in any case clearly against the interests of Wikipedia in my opinion. I recommend to all interested parties my essay the Wikipedia creed if in any doubt how I am coming to this conclusion, and hope that helps. Andrewa (talk) 22:39, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! Pinging some more administrators:   My main problem with the outcome of this debate is that I believe that I've presented pretty clear evidence or at least strong indication regarding the common name of the village - however, the opposing arguments largely weren't arguing with regard to Wikipedia guidelines, and canvassing has also been an issue that has affected the debate. So, if this is the situation we're in, that a move request can be stalled and overturned by procedural issues and optics so easily - I would argue that these debates are then pretty vulnerable to WP:FILIBUSTER/Status quo stonewalling, not adhering to the purpose of Wikipedia and its guidelines. What do you guys think is the best way to move forward? I am committed to try to see to it that these articles are named according to their common names as much as possible - is the option of an RfC for a naming convention for Nagorno-Karabakh the only viable and legitimate option? I don't think I'll personally try to initiate further move requests if the outcome of this debate will be replicated en masse again. AntonSamuel (talk) 01:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * , I don't really have much of import to add. The close seems to have been the right call, though as far as closing summaries go, it isn't really one or is basically just half of one — merely noting the outcome per se. isn't what we expect in closing summaries. There has to be more. Anyway, there also appears to have been some canvassing, which is unfortunate, but it looks unlikely that things would have turned the other way absent that (I estimate). As for arguing the finer points of whether this request should have been closed as consensus against or, failing that, merely as no consensus — my sense is that this probably isn't a worthwhile exercise. El_C 01:57, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read Admin shopping, noting that it is a policy and that most (hopefully all) admins will be familiar with it. Andrewa (talk) 06:34, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if I gave a bad impression by tagging multiple administrators, my intention wasn't to attempt to overrule or go above anybody's head - I'll keep WP:ADMINSHOP in mind in the future. At this point, I'm most of all just looking for feedback on how to proceed from here, so I thought it might be helpful to get input from the admins that I've interacted with before regarding this and related issues. AntonSamuel (talk) 10:54, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * just to let you know that it's all good. Actually, I'm honored that you would come to my talk page about this. I sincerely thank you for your continued contributions to Wikipedia and hope that you and yours have a Happy and Prosperous New Year in 2021! Happy New Year to all!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 13:08, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, I'm happy to hear that and I wish you a Happy New Year too! AntonSamuel (talk) 13:31, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd like to echo Paine's all good. I recognise that you are trying exceptionally hard to do the right thing. See WP:creed and we need more like you. Andrewa (talk) 03:39, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot! I'm glad to hear that you appreciate my efforts. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:07, 3 January 2021 (UTC)