Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics/Archive/2010/Jul

Is it appropriate for an article to mandate a unicode character?
There is a discussion at Talk:Convolution about whether it is appropriate to mention in the "Definition" section of the Convolution article the designation of the unicode glyph for the asterisk. To me, this seems to be utterly irrelevant in the article. Anyway, I've been accused of edit-warring there (on what seem to be quite spurious grounds). I'd like to ask for other opinions. Sławomir Biały (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not believe an ordinary article on mathematics should talk about the unicode points of the characters in mathematical notation. There are a few articles specifically about symbols, and those are an obvious exception. But the article on convolution is not an exception. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 00:58, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The Diophantus-Brahmagupta-Fibonacci-Lagrange identity
Some terminological confusion that may be beyond Wikipedia's scope to sort out, but let's see. (Note: Diophantus lived in the 3rd century, Brahmagupta in the 7th, Fibonacci in the 12th/13th, and Lagrange in the 18th.) We have an article at Brahmagupta–Fibonacci identity, which gives the identity
 * $$\left(a^2 + b^2\right)\left(c^2 + d^2\right) {}= \left(ac-bd\right)^2 + \left(ad+bc\right)^2$$

(that shows, among other things, that the set of sums-of-squares is closed under multiplication). Now it so happens that although "Fibonacci's identity" elsewhere does seem to refer to this identity, Brahmagupta knew and used something more general:
 * $$\left(a^2 - Nb^2\right)\left(c^2 - Nd^2\right) {}= \left(ac+Nbd\right)^2 - N\left(ad+bc\right)^2$$

The previous identity is the special case N=-1. It seems a "waste" to use the name Brahmagupta's identity for the special case. (And in fact the special case may not even be in his work; I haven't checked.) Moreover, the special case — sum of squares — was also known to Diophantus! So why is Fibonacci's name associated with it? (It is hard to suggest that someone knew one of these identities but not the proof; since the proof is trivial.) Should we rename some articles here, or is it the kind of thing we cannot do? Shreevatsa (talk) 00:29, 26 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we have to go by generally accepted naming, as indicated by the usual reliable sources. -- Radagast 3 (talk) 03:09, 26 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I know; hence the first and last lines of my comment. But the question here is precisely to determine what "generally accepted naming" is. For sources which refer to the second identity above as Brahmagupta's identity, see (apart from the book already linked): MathWorld, here, here, here, here, here, here, etc. In fact it appears to me that more sources use "Brahmagupta's identity" for the second one than the first. Several of these sources also name the first identity after Diophantus, with no mention of Fibonacci. I was (am) hoping someone could determine the right answers here, and if after carefully weighing sources it transpires that there is no clear choice, we may as well move the articles to rational titles. Shreevatsa (talk) 03:43, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Universal data compression
I removed a PROD tag for this article since the subject does seem to be notable. However the article is unreferenced and it appears that it will need a complete rewrite due to accuracy issues. It would be nice if someone knowledgeable about data compression could bring it up to at least stub quality before it goes to AfD.--RDBury (talk) 19:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The article says nothing about a probability distribution on possible input sequences. Without such a distribution, one cannot hope to show that the "compressed" output is probably shorter than the input. If every sequence of length L is equally likely, then no loss-less compression is possible. Compression works by making more likely messages shorter at the expense of making less likely messages longer. JRSpriggs (talk) 06:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The definition in the article is very confusing. The definition in the cited paper is perfectly unambiguous: "A universal Data Compression algorithm is one that yields a compression which approaches, as the input length tends to infinity, H bits/letter where H is the entropy of the (stationary) source whose statistics is unknown to the encoder, except for the fact that the source is a member of some given class of stationary sources (a.e. the class of stationary ergodic sources)." I'll rewrite the intro suitably. Dcoetzee 23:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You might want to indicate that although the input is assumed to be a stationary process, the output cannot be a stationary process. JRSpriggs (talk) 14:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Peer review request for "Number" article
I've put in a request for a peer review for the article Number; I feel that as it is considered a vital article in the area of mathematics it should be improved to at least the standard of a good article. If someone would be willing to put the time into creating a peer review for the article I would be very grateful, and would act to improve any suggestions. The peer review page can be found here.

Thanks, Qwam (talk) 13:34, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Background color for formulas
I don't know if someone else noticed this, but since r59550 we can use the commands \pagecolor and \definecolor in order to change the background color of mathematical formulas. This is useful for example when a formula has to be over a colored background. Ex.:

I thought it's worth to note here, in case somebody needs this, since it seems not to be documented anywhere...

Best regards Helder (talk) 23:58, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Adjoints
Can we have some standardization on how to represent the adjoint of an operator (matrix)? I see $$A^*$$ and $$A^\dagger$$ a lot (for example in the normal matrix, hermitian matrix, self-adjoint operator, Bra-ket notation). Recently I have cleaned up positive-definite matrix to make the notation consistent. As a physicist, I'm more used to the dagger, but it seems to me that the asterisk is much more common in maths. Should then the standard be context-dependent? Tercer (talk) 01:00, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Standards differ from field to field. It is a wikipedia best practice to leave the choice of (notional/linguistic) standards up to the editors of a particular article. There is no way that community consensus will be reach one standard or an our. This also stresses the need to explain what your notation means (this is needed anyway for readers unfamiliar with any standard).TimothyRias (talk) 07:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Curl (mathematics)
There is a strange discussion at Talk:Curl (mathematics) including the claim that a "seven-dimensional cross product" would permit the definition of the curl of a vector field on $$\mathbb{R}^7$$. More eyes would be helpful there. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 16:54, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Topological model
Hi. I have made image of topological model of Mandelbrot set. I have looked for pages about topological models and found nothing. Do you think that it could be useful somewhere ? --Adam majewski (talk) 19:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like it's already been added to the Mandelbrot set article. But, though I have a passing familiarity with the M-set, I don't see how the image relates to it. The model I'm familiar with is a circle with certain points identified, but the homeomorphism between the model and the boundary of the M-set depends on the local connectivity conjecture. I'm not sure if there would be something like a theory of topological models, unless it's topology as a whole.--RDBury (talk) 10:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Thx. Probably topologicla here means that it shows a structure of Mandelbrot set and it is more related with model theory. --Adam majewski (talk) 14:07, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How is it related with model theory?—Emil J. 14:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Math software
Would math related software such as statistical analysis and certain forms of math computations qualify fall under the math wikiproject? Specifically, I'm referring to F(g) Scholar which was once heavily used in math/science academia.Smallman12q (talk) 20:25, 1 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I had removed the math rating banner from this article, but I don't have a very strong opinion about it. At the moment neither Talk:Mathematica nor Talk:MATLAB has a math banner, either, and this seems to have less of a connection to mathematics than those would. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 20:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There really should be a software category for the math software. I believe that matlab and mathematica should be added. WP:WikiProject Statistics List of statistical packages but we haven't added List of numerical analysis software.Smallman12q (talk) 11:43, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * We do have Category:Mathematical software, which is on the List of mathematics categories. I added that to the F(g) scholar article, which should now get added to the List of mathematics articles by tomorrow's bot run. That list is really what you want to look at to find mathematics articles. Our talk page tagging is much more limited, focusing on things that are more directly related to math. The list of mathematics articles has a broader focus including things that are closely related to mathematics. MATLAB and Mathematica are both already on the list, for example. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 11:52, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Constructible set
Is anyone familiar with the terminology used in the article constructible set (topology)? It claims that a constructible set is one in the algebra generated by the open sets. It's certainly possible that this name is used somewhere but I have never come across it. There's a reference to an arXiv paper, and an external link to a PostScript doc with no indication that it's been published. --Trovatore (talk) 18:48, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Besides classical algebraic geometry over closed fields, the phrase "constructible sets" occur in real algebraic (semi-algebraic, semi-analytic, etc.) geometry. Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 19:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it used with the meaning indicated in the article? --Trovatore (talk) 20:09, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Andradas, Bröcker, Ruiz define constructible sets this way on page 13 of their monograph, Constructible Sets in Real Geometry, using the Boolean algebra of "basic open sets" defined by a finite number of positivity conditions, which is too complicated to define. Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 20:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, cool. Do you have that publication, by any chance?  Maybe if you find time you could add a better reference to the article than the ones it has. --Trovatore (talk) 21:00, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. I'm sorry for not seeing your question, before. Best regards, Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 00:44, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I added links to Armand Borel and to A. Grothendieck, but didn't have the energy to formate the other references properly. Best regards, Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 00:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I added links to Armand Borel and to A. Grothendieck, but didn't have the energy to formate the other references properly. Best regards, Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 00:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I added links to Armand Borel and to A. Grothendieck, but didn't have the energy to formate the other references properly. Best regards, Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 00:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Svante Janson for DYK
The new article Svante Janson will be appearing as on the Wikidepia frontpage as a Did you know? fact. Improvements would be especially useful in the next few days, before hundreds of readers view the page (in its 12 hours of fame). Thanks, Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 01:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Merge of non-standard calculus to infinitesimal calculus
The article non-standard calculus has recently been merged to infinitesimal calculus. There was an old thread discussing this, where the proposal didn't seem to get much support, but someone has gone ahead with the merger anyway. Comments are welcome. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like bad idea to me, at least in German infinitesimal calculus (=Infinitesimalrechnung) is usually not associated with non standard analysis, but used as term for a less rigor treatment of analysis (i.e. the calculus of the 17th and 18th century essentially).--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:00, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes it looks wrong to me too. Just because Robinson found way to make the idea work doesn't mean the old idea had anything to do with non-standard analysis. Dmcq (talk) 15:57, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It should be noted that the article on infinitesimal calculus was nigh content-free, so I support its disappearance. But yes, the term is ill-defined and has only historical value, so associating it with Robinson's work will only confuse readers; I have studied it and noone refers to it by this name, only nonstandard analysis or, less often, nonstandard calculus. Tercer (talk) 16:07, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I did originally revert the merge, but that was reverted. There was also a brief but very old thread on Talk:Non-standard calculus. These look like two separate topics to me, as CSTAR said It is an example of an infinitesimal calculus, however, it should not be conflated with it. --Salix (talk): 16:09, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This appears to be a merge done against the clear consensus at Talk:Infinitesimal calculus. I have reverted it again, pending further discussion. -- Radagast 3 (talk) 01:02, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There was a clear consensus at both talkpages that infinitesimal calculus should not be merged into non-standard calculus. I would have similarly opposed such a merge.  What I proposed last week was a merge in the opposite direction.  CSTAR clearly stated (five years ago) that he views non-standard calculus as a sub-branch of infinitesimal calculus.  His position is consistent with such a merge.  Note that the term itself "non-standard calculus" is a creation of a wikipedian.  In the literature, one talks about "non-standard analysis" and "infinitesimal calculus using Robinson's non-standard analysis".  The term non-standard calculus is rarely used outside of English wikipedia.  Keisler's textbook mentions infinitesimals in the title, but not anything "non-standard".  As an example of infitesimal calculus, Tkuvho (talk) 06:58, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Opposition to a merge is opposition to a merge, regardless of direction. And it's clear that several editors here were unhappy with the merge which you boldly implemented. The merge idea was worth exploring, but now it's time to drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass, and try another solution. -- Radagast 3 (talk) 07:48, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If anything the merge should have been of non-standard calculus to non-standard analysis. I'm not sure where that would leave the movement to try and use non-standard analysis ideas in introducing calculus. Names are not the same as topics. Just because a person has infinitesimal in their title doesn't mean it should go under infinitesimal calculus unless that is turned into a disambiguation page. Dmcq (talk) 09:53, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

General comment: In my experience, the term the infinitesimal calculus just means the integral and differential calculus considered together, and has nothing particularly to do with the foundational approach. I think infinitesimal calculus should simply redirect to calculus. That's a comment about the title and where it should point. As to the content, I haven't actually looked. OK, now I have. I think that should be merged into calculus as well, or possibly moved to another title (such as, I don't know, Newtonian and Leibnizian development of the calculus), with the redirect left behind at infinitesimal calculus redirected to calculus. --Trovatore (talk) 10:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that a sensible approach seems to be to redirect infinitesimal calculus to calculus, and include a summary section in calculus on different foundational approaches. Presumably this section would build on the Limits and infinitesimals section of the Calculus article, although it could be that what is already there is sufficient for this purpose.  This still leaves open the question of what to do with the current contents of non-standard calculus.  It seems to me that most of this content could be merged to non-standard analysis to that article's benefit.   Sławomir Biały  (talk) 12:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, without commenting on the content (which I haven't read), I agree that at the end of the process the search term non-standard calculus should be a redirect to nonstandard analysis (with or without the hyphen &mdash; my preference is without, but this is a minor point).
 * I would elaborate on my previous remarks that my impression is that, in the phrase infinitesimal calculus, the purpose of the adjective is to distinguish from other technologies also called calculus, such as the calculus of finite differences (and possibly even the propositional calculus, or is that an anachronism?). If this can be sourced, it should be mentioned in a "Terminology" section of the calculus article. --Trovatore (talk) 20:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I would support the idea of redirecting infinitesimal calculus to calculus. But then obviously calculus itself should be the target of a real effort to get the historical, pedagogic and logical status of calculus sorted out. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, that's important. But let's not put it too early in the article.  Calculus is mostly an applied discipline (the pure-math counterpart is real analysis, which has its own article) and foundations, while interesting, should not be the focus. --Trovatore (talk) 19:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * actually the real analysis article might even need more work than the calculus article, since in its current form it is little more than name dropping. Improvement issues aside I think the redirect to the current calculus article is a good idea.--Kmhkmh (talk) 19:29, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

RfC on the 7D cross product
There is an RfC here on whether it's appropriate to label an identity with the label "Pythagorean theorem". More interested participants are welcome !-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 21:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Orphan basic articles
Relative difference, Percentage change, Percent difference, Fold change are very simple and overlap greatly and do not link up to anything really. Could someone fix this? (I though I had posted this, but searching nothing came up, so I probably never did, If I am repeating myself, I am terribly sorry) Thanks --Squidonius (talk) 20:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I am surprised that none of those articles mentions the natural logarithm. If A<B, then
 * $$\frac{B-A}{B} < \ln(B)-\ln(A) < \frac{B-A}{A} \,.$$
 * And the logarithmic version has the advantage that the relative changes are additive. JRSpriggs (talk) 06:28, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm reminded of the discussion at Reference desk/Archives/Mathematics/2010 May 13. Anyone know of reliable sources other than Tim Cole's article on 'sympercents' (}? Qwfp (talk) 07:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Missing assessments for ~50% of Math WikiProject articles?
Hi all,

On a whim, I checked the article assessments for 95 geometers listed in The Penguin Dictionary of Curious and Interesting Geometry by David Wells. Of those, roughly half (46/95) had no assessment by the Math WikiProject. That seems like a surprisingly high fraction of the articles that fall within our scope, although the biographies of geometers may not be representative. I've since added assessments for those articles.

It's not the most pressing issue, of course. But the assessments help us keep track of how we're doing; if I recall correctly, the system was invented by people from this WikiProject. So the next time you're reading or working on a math article, please take a moment to check whether your article has an assessment from WikiProject Math. Thanks muchly! :) Willow (talk) 23:27, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

PS. The article on Victor Thébault could seriously use some help - any takers? Theodor Reye is missing altogether; I'll work on that one. Willow (talk) 23:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * To follow up: if you do find an article without an assessment template, and you want to add one, please fill in all three of the parameters: class (quality), priority, and field. We have a list of mathematics articles already, so the only reason to add the template is the assessment information. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 03:09, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

For biographies, the field is always mathematician, right? For people who don't know about assessments, the idea is to add a line like

to beginning of the article's Talk page. More details can be found here; thanks! Willow (talk) 14:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think some congratulations are due since apparently we do at least have articles on all 95 of the geometers. We do have a backlog on filling in ratings, as well as backlogs on several other tasks. Perhaps it would help to add these to the 'Things you can do' section on the project page.--RDBury (talk) 08:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

We can be even more heartened because there were only 23 stubs (~24%), albeit some well-known ones such as Möbius, Brianchon, and Feuerbach. Overall, the distribution of qualities was 5/2/10/12/43/23 for FA/GA/B(+)/C/Start/Stub; the Start class seems to be dominant, with almost half of the articles. Willow (talk) 14:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I tweaked one of my scripts so that it works for mathematicians, too. It dynamically generates a list of all articles in a category that don't have a math rating template. The results for Category:Mathematicians by century are here. As you can see, there are a lot of unassessed mathematician pages in those subcategories. The point of this tool is to make it easier to assign ratings by letting you focus on one category at a time. But you still have to assess the quality and importance of each article. The importance in particular is very hard to characterize with a set of automatic criteria. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 18:12, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Neat! Thank you for making that wonderful tool. :) It seems wise and efficient to break the problem into smaller bits. I'll do my share, starting with Dinostratus. Willow (talk) 13:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Dihedral symmetry of some subsets of Young's lattice
To the article titled Young's lattice, I've added a section on the surprising (quite surprising to me, and I'm not the only one!) dihedral symmetry of certain subsets of the lattice, somewhat recently discovered by Ruedi Suter. The bilateral symmetry is obvious, so the surprising part is the rotational symmetry.

Improve the new section if you can. Michael Hardy (talk) 05:12, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Font used in formulas, in images
[First posted here, later here.]

I was wondering if we should aim to use a similar font as the LaTeX output in images that reproduce formulas from the body of the article. For instance, most of the images in HSL and HSV that use a Sans Serif font. It's kind of hard to identify in the images what is a formula, and what are merely labels. Using a Latin font might help to distinguish between the two types. Thanks. SharkD  Talk  01:40, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you are referring to images such as File:Hsl-hsv chroma-lightness slices.svg. It would certainly be possible to recreate these using a different font, or just edit the svg to change the font and then upload the image again. That image is on wikimedia commons, which means it is free content: anyone is free to edit the image and upload a new version. Personally, I would not object if someone changes the math fonts to serif. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The author of these images is resisting the change, so I'm not sure what to do. SharkD   Talk  01:46, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Well it is obviously up to the author of the image, what kind of fonts are used for it and it is up to the article's authors which image they use in the article. We definitely should not have any guideline mandating particular fonts for images. The authors of the concerned article need agree on the exact images they want to use and consider carefully whether rather marginal changes are really worth a lengthy and probably bitter argument.--Kmhkmh (talk) 08:45, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, images on Wikipedia are not owned by their original authors any more than regular articles, so what kind of fonts are used in an image is subject to consensus.—Emil J. 13:00, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand my point above, it's not about ownership but creation. Whoever creates a particular image decides what it looks like and what fonts he wants to use. Of course it is possible for other authors to create alternative images from the scratch or as derived material. I don't think that WP has any business in regulating the image creation process, but mandating a "style guide for (math) images". If several images are available for an article, the article authors need to decide on which one to pick (on a case by case basis).--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My question was with regard to which image appears in the article, not which image was uploaded to Commons on XXXX date by YYYY person. In this case the author of the image is also a contributer to the article, and wants "his" version with the Sans Serif fonts to appear in the article, and not the one with the Serif fonts. SharkD   Talk  17:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In this case the authors of the article need to work it out.--Kmhkmh (talk) 18:39, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You're saying that third opinions don't matter? SharkD   Talk  19:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * They do. I'm just saying the involved/interested authors need to work out an agreement for this particular case, but it is imho nothing the MOS should handle or needs to handle (as your first posting seemed to suggest).--Kmhkmh (talk) 20:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe... Since Wikipedia and Commons are separate entities, I don't see how an MOS here would affect Commons. I also don't see how an MOS would necessarily be a bad thing right off the bat. Wikipedia has tons of MOSs. An additional one for images would not be bad. But I'm mainly looking for an 3O for this particular set of images. SharkD   Talk  14:35, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * So, is anyone willing to provide a third opinion, or should I just "get lost"? SharkD   Talk  22:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I suspect this is a bad idea for many reasons, but one of them is that the choice of fonts that work in scalable (SVG) images on Wikimedia is...idiosyncratic. For instance, Times and Helvetica are bad choices (they don't scale correctly) and instead one must replace them with Liberation Serif or Liberation Sans respectively. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Fonts can be converted into paths in the software, which is already the case in these images apparently. SharkD   Talk  02:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * They can, but that's a bad idea for a different reason: it makes the images much more difficult to edit. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Math formatting that scales with browser text
I just had a look at the preview examples in http://www.mathjax.org/ — it looks much better than what we do for math markup here. Especially nice is the way the math scales when the browser text font size increases or decreases. We should use into the possibility of using this or similar technology in place of our current bad system of math typography. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I had made some inquiries to the system admins this spring about the possibility of switching to JSmath, which was a predecessor to Mathjax. The responses I got were not favorable; the people who responded thought our current system is "good enough" and that they are not willing to replace the default images-based system with any system that requires javascript. And jsmath (at least) requires installing fonts to work well.


 * Then I did some testing of jsmath under my personal account. I was able to make it work, but it required me to install some fonts, and there were some pages with broken rendering that I didn't investigate deeply. About that time the STIX fonts came out, and I thought I would wait a few months to see if those get integrated into JSmath.


 * So I think there is some chance of getting JSmath / Mathjax support as an optional feature, either supprted directly in mediawiki or through user javascript. The main thing that it would take is someone with the time to get it set up. But I don't forsee it replacing the images system just yet. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 17:21, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Looking at the sample formulas, it doesn't seem mathjax needs any special fonts. (Or maybe there are special fonts, but they are loaded/downloaded by the script.) But I don't see the real benefit, since you cannot copy and paste the formulas into other software and still have them be legible/meaningful. Better to wait until mathml becomes supported by browsers, since presumably you will be able to transfer formulas between applications via the clipboard. SharkD   Talk  19:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The benefit is to have math formulas that don't look horrible. I had the impression that Mathjax does allow copying and pasting, and does support mathml, but those are extra benefits above and beyond the basic one of looking ok. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's homepage says it supports cut-and-paste interoperability, though maybe the preview on the website doesn't. To me, Mathjax looks like a huge improvement on jsMath, which it builds on and is designed (by the same lead developer) to be the successor to. It's still in beta, but its homepage says "1.0 release expected in July 2010", so that may not be too far away. From the sponsors and supporters listed in the lead of our Mathjax article, it looks to me like it's destined to become the standard way of delivering equations in journal articles within browsers (i.e. without downloading a pdf). My guess is that may take a couple of years yet, but I'd hate to see Wikipedia get left behind. Qwfp (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried copying and pasting the output into Microsoft Word and the result had several errors. I doubt other applications will fare any better. SharkD   Talk  23:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Matching preclusion
Matching preclusion has been prodded. Worth keeping or not? Michael Hardy (talk) 02:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I added a few more references and deprodded. I'd rate it low priority but probably (barely) worth keeping; several groups of mathematicians have written about the subject. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Dirac delta function nominated for GA
Dirac delta function has been nominated for GA, in case anyone is interested in reviewing it. Sławomir Biały (talk) 02:08, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Inequality (mathematics)
Someone moved inequality to inequality (mathematics) and then made the former into a disambiguation page. A result is that a HUGE number of pages now linking to inequality should link to inequality (mathematics). So there's yet another chore. (Are there bots that can be used to facilitate this?) Michael Hardy (talk) 02:14, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, there might be a bot that does this, or we could write one. However, I checked the list of articles that link to Inequality, and it's not so bad &mdash; there appear to be 182 articles, and a good fraction aren't mathematical articles, e.g., Music and politics, Chinese New Left, and Equal pay for women.  Therefore, a bot solution might not be the right way to do it - shall we just do it by hand?  I'll take the first twenty.  Here's a link to the list:


 * Articles that link to "Inequality"


 * We can watch as the articles go down by clicking on the link &mdash; good luck, all! :) Willow (talk) 03:56, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, we might've gotten them all. Please check the list linked above for anything we missed! :) Willow (talk) 06:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Another vanity page?
Reid W. Barton is another article that looks more like a vanity page or a glorified CV (here is the previous case). I am wondering how many more are there! Arcfrk (talk) 21:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll stick a prod on it. Dmcq (talk) 23:04, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I stuck a prod on it - and then removed it. Having given it another reading I think an AfD would be more appropriate as there are grounds for dispute. Anybody else want to give a nod one way or the other first? Dmcq (talk) 23:24, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * A prod would have been the appropriate solution. There's absolutely no way the article would pass AfD. -- Radagast 3 (talk) 01:01, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's a vanity page — it seems to have been created by others. Although there isn't sufficient notability (yet?) as an academic, the arguments on the talk page seem to argue he's notable as an math-contest participant — which is true, he's a star in the IMO/IOI/Putnam/etc community (or was at some point). Of course, no one (including himself) may care about this anymore. Shreevatsa (talk) 02:06, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

To clarify: "vanity page" doesn't necessarily imply the subject himself wrote it (for example, pages devoted to one's children/parents/beau/spouse may be so categorized). Dcmq, what are the grounds for dispute? It clearly doesn't pass WP:PROF. I just don't have enough time to devote to AfD, or I would have sent it there already. Arcfrk (talk) 06:25, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay so I should just left the prod - I'll reinstate it I think that should be okay. Dmcq (talk) 08:18, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Not disagreeing with deletion, but winning the Putnam four times puts the subject in a very small group. Deletion is probably something that should be argued on AfD, especially since the previously deleted Darij Grinberg article is something of a weak precedent (only one IMO gold).   Sławomir Biały  (talk) 13:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd consider a regular AfD as more appropriate, after all he seems to clearly more "notable" than the case it is compared to, which had regular AfD. I agree with Shreevatsa that the potential case for his notability is not based on being a notable researcher (yet), but for being the star or best known competitor of the imo/putnam scene. I can see how some people might make weak case for keep/notability (together with a rewrite) based on the combination of the high numbers of wins (and scores) at putnam and olympic competitions and the morgan prize.--Kmhkmh (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've raised Articles for deletion/Reid W. Barton as the prod was removed. There is some doubt whether it should be included but it might be notable. Dmcq (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The AfD result was Keep.--agr (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

There are a few other cases (IMO or putnam guys) that should be looked at in this context as well: Christian Reiher, Iurie Boreico, Ciprian Manolescu. In addition we need to consider red links in the articles about Putnam and IMO, because it's fair to assume that red links in those articles are likely to lead to the creation of biography articles.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:18, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Review needed at Proof (informal) to establish consensus
At Proof (informal), editor has written an essay-style article in which he insists that the dictionary definition "A proof is sufficient evidence for the truth of a proposition" applies equally to formal proofs in mathematics and logic as it does to the concept of proof in other fields such as law, rhetoric and philosophy. He believes that formal proof is not essentially different from informal proof, but is only a "higher standard of sufficiency", and that "the notion of "sufficient evidence" does not distinguish between formal and informal argument".

An attempt by myself to clean up the article and restrict its scope to fields in which an evidence-based concept of proof applies were reverted by Pratt, with the talk page comment "so that others would have a chance to judge the original and draw their own conclusions". It would therefore be good to see more contributions to the discussion at Talk:Proof (informal).

To provide context for the talk page discussion, you may need to know that editor Vaughan Pratt identifies himself as Professor Vaughan Pratt of Stanford University. Gandalf61 (talk) 08:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This brouhaha seems to have settled down, and things are pretty much back to where they were originally, namely at Proof (truth), albeit with a couple more paragraphs in the article and a ton more sources. While I don't want to quibble with most of what Gandalf61 wrote above (not to imply that I agree with it, in fact I resent the 20 hours additional labor that his 2 minutes of reverting has cost me), I do want to object strenuously to his unkind implication that I promoted myself in the article Vaughan Pratt.  While I can see that the article has something to do with me I have nothing to do with it, I do not consider myself qualified to edit it in any way, and I was surprised when it was drawn to my attention that such an article even existed---no one asked me beforehand whether I minded.  Furthermore I have never identified myself on Wikipedia either as a professor or as a member of Stanford, which is not in keeping with the non-hierarchical structure of Wikipedia.  On a few occasions I have said in what areas I have some expertise in, and on many more in what areas I'm not qualified, but that's about as much of myself as I'm willing to browbeat fellow Wikipedians with. --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 21:59, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You may want to consider editing pseudonymously as I do. Ozob (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Certainly not all Second-Worlders (those using pseudonyms) are hostile, but it's been my impression that the proportion is even lower among us First-Worlders. I shouldn't lose my cool with hostile Second-Worlders, but their techniques vary and I'm still acquiring the necessary immunity.  Pseudonymity should only be needed by the thin-skinned, which I'm trying not to be, not always with complete success to date as seen here. --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 22:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply to :
 * I mentioned your self-identification with Vaughan Pratt because it had been brought up (by another editor) at Talk:Proof (informal) and was relevant background to that discussion, where you refer to yourself as an expert editor.
 * I have never implied that you edited the Vaughan Pratt article. You do, however, have a link to that article on your user page and you have contributed various versions of the photograph used on that page.
 * You say "I have never identified myself on Wikipedia either as a professor or as a member of Stanford" - well, that's not actually correct. On 6 July 2010 you posted on your talk page that you "...taught a course on algebraic logic, CS 353, at Stanford for twenty years, and am on the Symbolic Systems faculty there".
 * "I resent the 20 hours additional labor that his 2 minutes of reverting has cost me" - so get over it. If you literally spent 20 hours on this issue then it is possible that you are showing early signs of Wikiholism. My advice is (a) try to be more collaborative and (b) resist the temptation to write talk page essays documenting your every thought and action. With experience, you will find that contributing to Wikipedia is much more satisfying if you drop the belligerent attitude that you show at Talk:Proof (informal) and in the post above.
 * BTW, if you want to continue this conversation or have further comments on my Wikipedia editing in future, the proper place for such posts is at my talk page. Gandalf61 (talk) 18:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Declined. I have nothing further to say on this than that you chose to use the page Vaughan Pratt with which I have never identified myself (that was someone else's doing) when the appropriate page for that purpose, by which I do identify myself, is User:Vaughan Pratt. I consider that goading. The link to Vaughan Pratt from User:Vaughan Pratt was placed there without my knowledge or approval; I neither knew nor cared why it was put there, and therefore felt neither qualified nor motivated to change it.  The photo was uploaded to Wikimedia by me in response to a request at User_talk:Vaughan_Pratt on 14 December 2008 by User:EdJohnston, which I try to keep reasonably up to date; it was User:David Eppstein's decision and action to put a link to that photo on Vaughan Pratt, I have never been involved with that link.  Touche on the reference to Stanford; the best I can do within the talk-page guidelines is to strike out that oversight.  I am not belligerent by nature but can still be goaded into it.  Currently working on a cure for the common goad.  --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 22:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Have posted my response to this absurd nonsense at User talk:Vaughan Pratt, where it belongs. Gandalf61 (talk) 23:42, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Pages needing attention/Mathematics
I'm going though this section to remove obsolete and redundant entries. I'm wondering though if this section is needed at all anymore. It's been nearly a year since the last new entry and most issues can be flagged with a cleanup tag and sorted automatically. Most of the listed issues have long since been resolved so it's apparent that section is not being maintained as it should be. Unless someone can find an issue that can't be adequately handled with a clean up tag and/or a note on the talk page I propose removing the section for simplicity's sake.--RDBury (talk) 14:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There's still some genuine problems buried in there, though. -- Radagast 3 (talk) 23:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to get everything that's still outstanding changed to cleanup tag of some kind. Some of the issues have been flagged for 5 years so hopefully the cleanup tags will be more effective at getting issues resolved. I've gone through 2005's issues and so far haven't found any that I can't do, though some are a challenge.--RDBury (talk) 10:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Unimodal
Looking at the sad state of unimodal function, and noting that the main use, unimodal distribution, is left mostly unexplained, I made an inexperienced attempt at writing unimodal in a way which I hope will be useful to some extent even to casual readers, and redirected unimodal function and unimodal distribution. Feel free to restructure it again. --Muhandes (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your efforts. The title unimodal needs some consideration, because (as an adjective) it forms a clumsy topic (e.g. continuity is a better page name than continuous). Charles Matthews (talk) 12:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Good point, renamed to unimodality. --Muhandes (talk) 12:22, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Relation of the Riemann zeta function to pi
The new article titled Relation of the Riemann zeta function to pi is at best a mess in its present form. Fix it if possible; prod it if you know it can't be fixed.

The topic seems potentially worthy of an article, but not this article. Michael Hardy (talk) 03:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hard to salvage. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The inability to learn or understand the mathematical fields or formulas of your own choosing on Wikipedia is frustrating.
I can go to an article and know that this is the type of mathematics that I want to learn and use. But I'm not trained in it. No problem; all the formulas are right there along with any proofs. But I'm not educated in the symbols, variables, and subformulas used, either, and they are never linked to! This just removes the ability to learn mathematics on Wikipedia altogether. I'm sorry, but there's no way to start at the bottom and work my way up to what I want to learn when the things in between are not linked to! "Go to school and learn everything, you loser." is not a reasonable solution. This isn't a problem with normal science, history, or psychology articles, for example, but it constantly is with mathematics articles. I'm not simply too dumb as I have learned and even (independently; not originally, I strongly assume) discovered some not majorly complex mathematical formulas on my own with basic knowledge, so if you're indeed linking to all esoteric (from a layman's perspective; something articles in general seem to tend to do on Wikipedia) terms being used then it's severely non-obvious how you are doing so. I just wish that it wasn't assumed that anyone looking at these articles already knew all of the mathematics used within them, ironically meaning that you could only learn something if you probably already happened to know it anyway, unless of course you're simply a professional looking at an extremely complex article, with such a person not meant to ever be Wikipedia's target audience, it appears elsewhere.75.4.141.69 (talk) 04:06, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "75.4.141.69", could you please give some specific examples? Michael Hardy (talk) 21:06, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The main difficulty of trying to learn something purely from books or journal articles is the inability to ask questions. This also applies to Wikipedia, if you limit yourself to just reading the articles. However, we do have the Reference desk where people will be glad to answer your questions. It is also possible to ask on the talk page of the article in question. However, lengthy series of questions there are discouraged because they distract from the main function of the talk page which is to reach agreement on how to improve the article. JRSpriggs (talk) 08:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In some cases (I'm thinking about articles such as Lagrange multipliers or Cauchy–Riemann equations, topics I wrestled with as an undergradaute before getting a basic "picture"), what we offer is superior to standard textbook treatments. That may well not go for everything, and you give no idea of what you are trying to self-study, and from what background. Mathematics never reads like a novel, and it is not all accessible from a standing start, and to learn most topics you will need a textbook. We aim to say what is in the textbooks, not to be the textbook: it's an encyclopedia. There are obviously particular difficulties with what mathematicians would call "logical dependence": sometimes you must study A before B, or else B won't make too much sense. Mathematicians themselves find this troublesome in trying to understand a new field; they have the advantage that they know that sometimes you need to devote a week to getting clear some background issue before trying to advance further. In the end, studying mathematics from reference material, which is what Wikipedia is, is not a great way, and the Web doesn't change that. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:48, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems like we get this kind of question about once a month. Is there any way we can put in a FAQ so we don't cover the same issue over and over? We at least need something to ask people to provide specific examples of what they're talking about.--RDBury (talk) 11:47, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

The discussion page for each article is open for questions. If a word or symbol is not understood it should be linked to an explanation. Bo Jacoby (talk) 12:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC).


 * You'd link &Sigma; in each article? Charles Matthews (talk) 12:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, not in each article. Only in the articles where readers asked for explanation on the discussion page. Bo Jacoby (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC).


 * Just go to wolfram.com. the articles there are written much better.  I've stopped using wikipedia as a source on mathematics long ago.  i've also given up on trying to improve it - there's too many stubborn people that stand in the way.  it's an ubiquiotos problem on wikipedia mathematics and it's not going to get fixed because it's caused by a misguided philosophy of people who are unwilling to change.  long story short, just use wolfram instead. Kevin Baastalk 17:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's just totally false. The corpus of WP math articles is immensely superior. --Trovatore (talk) 20:12, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Mathworld is more consistent due to single authorship but that's the only thing it has better than WP, which for breadth, depth and accessibility passed Mathworld long ago. As for a FAQ the mathematics link at the start of most articles sort of serves this purpose, with a discussion of mathematics in general, a section notation with a link to mathematical notation, and links to a number of maths topics, letting readers start at a wide variety of levels. I don't think we need anything else. We can't just add a detailed discussion of notation into every article: some articles would become many times larger and it would do little to help understanding which depends on much more than knowing what the symbols mean.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 21:03, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Gee, who would have guessed?! Say listen folks, whatever you do, don't listen attentively, or otherwise open the mind to the criticism of someone who just wants to use WP to learn math. My goodness it's not like the thing exists for them. Just go ahead and explain to him that the experts have ways of doing things around here and know best. Don't set up a FAQ. WP:MATH deserves to hear this once a month. Greg Bard (talk) 20:39, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As a general observation, math articles on WP very often have few or no sources, and when they do, the sources are inaccessible papers (i.e. written for the expert and available often only to university types with special on-line access). And math editors on WP very commonly take the stance that the way they have written the article is a work of art, regardless of whether it is understandable by anyone other than the author, and rigidly revert any changes (even those that are simply links to sources). So there is a problem with both attitude and aesthetic with math articles and with math editors. Brews ohare (talk) 21:18, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Amen brother.Greg Bard (talk) 21:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There are many mathematical articles here that need improvement, no doubt. But I'm kind of sceptical about the chances of improving them simply by flaming the people with the competence to do so. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The "people with the competance to do so" AREN'T. So basically as far as this issue is concerned they are completely worthless, and the newbie complaining above is infinitely more valuable. Certian people need to drop the attitude, and in this particular area of study, it is a significantly large number. For my part, I have done exactly what needs to be done to address this person's complaint, and much of those efforts are deleted. Do you want to solve the problem? Take the approach that I take. Cover the meta-perspective, which means breaking down and asking analytic philosophers (whose very job it is to clarify things) what they think it should look like. I can't help but point out that this complaint above supports the conclusion that my claims have some moral authority. Greg Bard (talk) 21:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No-one would stop analytic philosophers contributing to maths articles if they were willing and able to. But it's the nature of maths that at any level it's a discussion between mathematicians, i.e. people of a certain level of experience or expertise in maths. At high school level which is maybe the lowest level of maths articles here you assume arithmetic, some algebra, basic trigonometry and vectors. At higher levels you assume complex numbers, calculus, infinity, infinite series. At graduate level you assume many more advanced topics completely alien to high school mathematics. This is for all participants benefit - it saves time for the writer or lecturer and readers or students.
 * It's not unique to mathematics. I occasionally contribute to language articles, but am mostly confused by IPA symbols and related terminology. There are many other articles which I read for interest, or come across when removing vandalism, that totally confuse me. It's maybe more pronounced in maths because it's to do with not just language but also symbols, and many more people find maths 'hard' than other subjects. But the problem's much the same, and is unavoidable in advanced topics.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 22:46, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There are two ways of writing a mathematics article.

(1) We can strike a healthy balance between equations and plain English, with a view to making sure that all likely questions will be answered in the article. Or,

(2) We can make a work of art using the most cryptic 'pure maths speak' of the day, in order to ensure that the article is so incomprehensible that any casual reader will have to ask.

The benefit of the latter method is that it keeps the wiki oracles in business. David Tombe (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I hope that we can all talk about this in a constructive way, one that makes Wikipedia better for everyone.


 * I hope that no one will doubt my loyalty, but some of the criticisms voiced above seem to have some validity. Before beginning to work on an article, I usually look at the MathWorld article to see how the subject is treated there.  In that admittedly small sampling, the MW articles are usually  incomplete, poorly organized and poorly referenced &mdash; but they're often more complete, better written, better illustrated, and better referenced than the corresponding Wikipedia article.  Our best work is incomparably better than MW or any other online resource, but that's a very tiny fraction of the whole; for illustration, we have ~8100 articles, of which there are ~10 Featured Articles on mathematical topics (excluding biographies). Overall, my impression is that we can do a much better job both in covering the math and in making it intelligible to our readers, many of whom may be mathematically educated people.


 * In trying to improve our articles, it would be helpful to get more feedback from our readers, don't you all agree? Our readers could, as you say, turn to Reference Desk or the article Talk page, but I would guess that very few of our readers know about them or editing whatsoever.


 * I'd like to propose an idea that we could try out on a few articles, and expand to many articles if it works out. I would be grateful for your opinion about it.  The idea is that we add a button to the top of selected articles, a button labeled "Ask a question about this article" (or some such text).  Clicking on the button will take the reader directly to an edit window, with instructions on how to ask their question and some boilerplate text.  I made a quick mock-up of this idea, which you can find here &mdash; please check it out! :)    I'd be happy for suggestions; almost everything can be modified.  If you all like the idea, I can convert it into a proper template that we could add to a few articles for testing. I'll volunteer to be the guinea pig by posting the template to my Featured Articles and fielding the questions.  Perhaps a few other authors will take the plunge, too. :)   Is this a plausible solution, do you think? Willow (talk) 23:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Willow, It's a good idea. But ultimately we should be aiming for a situation in which no questions need to be asked. I only stated option (2) above tongue-in-cheek as a way of emphasizing that this is exactly what we don't want. Why don't you start your idea with the article Seven-dimensional cross product. David Tombe (talk) 23:28, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the kind encouragement, David! :) OK, I'll try to transform my little toy into a template.  If we decide we don't like it, we can always not post it to pages, or even bring it to WP:TFD &mdash; easy come, easy go! :) Willow (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this is an excellent idea. I would love to try it out on an article or two. I am undecided what sort of articles to start with—do we attempt to tackle the huge, the mysterious, the abstract, such as spectral sequence or sheaf? Or do we aim at the elementary, such as trigonometry? Perhaps somewhere in the middle, say at derivative? But I think we certainly need to try this. (One comment on the template: It should go to the article talk page, not to WT:WPM.) Ozob (talk) 23:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The article talk page? Wouldn't the math refdesk be better?  That's the only officially approved place to ask questions about content, as opposed to discussing improvements. --Trovatore (talk) 23:53, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see the need for such a button. The point of the talk pages is to improve the article, not answer questions. They do get answered there, but as often such queries trigger improvements in articles so are a useful part of the building an encyclopaedia, so are generally allowed. But questions should go to the reference desk in first instance. As that isn't really part of the encyclopaedia, or the process of making it, it should not be featured so prominently on article pages.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 00:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you all! :) The template is now working at Article question, but of course your comments and suggestions are still welcome!  I do see advantages for going to the Talk page and to the Reference Desk (and here ;), so I included a "target" parameter.   This way, we can try out both and see which works better. I also included a "label" parameter, in case people wanted to experiment with different texts.  I'll add some documentation for the template anon.


 * Upon initial reflection, my feeling is that the Talk page is a somewhat better target. I'm afraid that suggestions and criticisms made at the Reference Desk may not get back to the article authors, who seem best suited to clarifying the article's ambiguities.  Also, pointing out the ambiguities or obscurities of the article does seem like "discussing improvements", doesn't it?  Maybe we could change the button label to make that purpose more clear?


 * Targeting the reference desk for mathematics directly is a little tricky, because this template would allow people to bypass the normal set of instructions there, such as "Search first!". Perhaps we might consider adding a simple link to the Reference desk/Mathematics for factual questions about the subject?


 * I believe that making the button prominent would be helpful for the many readers who may be ignorant of Wikipedia customs and methods for editing. But I'm glad to hear other viewpoints! :) Willow (talk) 00:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Certainly the purpose is related to improving the article, but as worded the template invites questions about the content. That's the refdesk's bailiwick.  We don't want to encourage the habit of asking questions about the content on article talk pages. That's something people often do anyway and it's tolerated to a limited extent.  I've done it myself and probably will do again.  But we don't want to make it appear that it's being officially sanctioned. --Trovatore (talk) 00:41, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I just saw it appear on Laplace–Runge–Lenz vector and swiftly removed it for two reasons. First that's a mathematical FA, and we should not be doing editing tests on such prominent articles unless we want it demoted. Second it broke the menus that popup next to the search bar: one is the 'TW' menu the other uis unnamed and has 'Move', 'Purge' and 'Tag' in it. Both appeared under the button so it obscured one of the items in each menu, and it was so wide that there was no way to move them to one side of it. That's with the default skin and a couple of popular gadgets enabled, so it would break editing for a lot of editors.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 01:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict) Yes, I've changed the default wording, but that's something we should experiment with; it's rather wordy now. I also added a little documentation to the Template itself.


 * I tested the template on one of my Featured Articles, Laplace–Runge–Lenz vector, and it worked for me. However, another editor, JohnBlackburne, found that it did not work for him and reverted my addition.  John, could you please describe what went wrong for you? Willow (talk) 01:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, John, thanks! I see your point about adding the template to FAs, although I can assure you that the LRL vector is not high traffic, much as I would wish it otherwise. ;) I'll look into the other issues; the method I used for positioning the template lacks finesse.  If others here have a better method for that, I'd be grateful to hear it! Willow (talk) 01:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I may have solved the menu problem identified by John. I've tested it with the "TW" (Twinkle) menu, and it works fine for me; but others should probably confirm that, e.g., at the previous revision.  Only when the template works correctly, should we consider whether to add it to articles.  Thank you for your help! :) Willow (talk) 01:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Although not the reasons I removed it aesthetically it didn't work either: the rounded button (this may be due to Safari or the Mac) looked out of place in an article and the text was far too long for a button. And as a mechanism it has another serious flaw in that it fills in too much: the questioner should be encouraged to add a meaningful header and phrase the question in an appropriate way. They may not realise they can edit the heading, or even the default text you supply, which could lead to multiple sections with the same heading and largely the same content, making the page much more difficult to navigate. It's best if they fill in all those things themselves – which is how it works if they click on 'Talk' then on 'New Section'/'+'. -- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 01:35, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You raise two important issues, the aesthetic and the functional; let me treat them in turn.
 * Re:aesthetics, I found that the semi-circular caps at the ends of the button are present on all browsers I tested on a Mac: Firefox, Chrome, Safari, and Opera. However, the same browsers do not exhibit the rounded corners on Ubuntu Linux or Windows XP.  Therefore, it seems to be a Mac issue, not a browser issue.  Personally, I find it attractive! :)
 * Re: functionality, I agree that going to the Talk page and clicking on the "New section" button is a fine way of leaving comments. I daresay all of us here will continue to use that method.  However, the goal of our discussion has been to find a way to get feedback from people who have not contributed, people who are frustrated with our articles but may have little idea about editing, Talk pages and New sections.   Personally, I don't believe that anything is lost by having an additional mechanism for reader feedback on selected articles; we can ignore it and others may appreciate it.  Nor do I feel that we lose anything by testing this template out on, say, two dozen pages.  What do others here believe?
 * Your points about "too much preloaded text" and "difficult page navigation" are well-taken, and I have modified the template to address both concerns. It is possible to modify the preloaded text or even eliminate it altogether, but I believe that it may help give people unfamiliar with Wikipedia an idea of what they should type and where.  I suggest that we experiment with this, and find what works best.  How does that sound? Willow (talk) 02:52, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Certainly Mac-style buttons look better than what I remember from Windows, but my point was not that it looks intrinsically unattractive but it looks out of place in an article. I think it would work even less well in some circumstances - text browsers or for people using text reader software, which is probably why WP uses text not buttons. E.g. at the top of my watchlist now is a request for feedback on the pending changes trial with a "[dismiss]", i.e. text, button. The show and hide buttons on collapsable text and navigation templates work the same way. And we already have a text button: the one labelled "Talk" on each page. People like the original poster in this section seem to have no problems finding and using it, and those that do are usually swiftly pointed in the right direction for help.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 14:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

A few comments:


 * Like Michael Hardy, I've often asked for specific examples, but rarely got meaningful response (often none at all). I suspect that many people do not realize something that all mathematicians know from experience: learning mathematics requires mental concentration and involves a high level of tolerance for unfamiliar terms and facts and an ability to successfully internalize them, and that for those reasons, it is rife with frustration.


 * Anyone who has taught mathematics at the university level is familiar with a complaint "this textbook is unclear" ("makes no sense", etc), which often indicates the inability of the student to parse mathematical sentences or even to read mathematical text (going back to the definitions, checking the hypotheses, etc). This can only be resolved by training and persistence, not by replacing the textbook.


 * I am worried that WillowW's suggestion can take us closer to the web tutoring center model, which is certainly not what Wikipedia was meant to be.

Arcfrk (talk) 09:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As for what to do, perhaps it would be fruitful to ask what could be added to Portal:Mathematics to address the points raised by the OP. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:40, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes the mathematics portal does seem an good target as a place to direct people an FAQ would nicely fit in the portal namespace, and the portal is linked from the project banner. Surprisingly neither the portal nor the banner contain links to the reference desk, so it is actually quite hard to find where to ask questions.
 * As to and FAQ it could contain links to the more basic articles such as Elementary algebra and Table of mathematical symbols. It could possibly also direct people to Mathematics which I find better meets the needs of my high school students.--Salix (talk): 13:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

An FAQ and other easy-to-find help items on the Mathematics Portal is excellent idea! Does anyone wish to volunteer to do that?

I examined the proposed template button in the text browser lynx and it was treated as an ordinary link, nicely centered by itself in the middle of the screen. I also examined the button using the VoiceOver screen reader on the Mac, and it also worked as an ordinary link. If there are lingering doubts, I'll boot up my Windows laptop and check that it works as well using the JAWS and NVDA screen readers. Therefore, it seems to present no problems for text browsers or screen readers.

My sense, however, is that most people here are content with the status quo. I won't push this solution on the WikiProject, but I likewise hope that no one will object if I experiment with it, e.g., by adding it to a few of the articles that I've written and maintained. Like you, I'm not terribly interested in spending a lot of time answering poorly formulated questions from people who are unwilling to think for themselves. But I believe that that mental image of our questioners and critics is a hypothesis, not a fact. It seems plausible, I grant you, and it's a convenient trope, because we don't need to work, just ignore them or redirect them to the Portal. But my own experience tells me that some of that criticism is valid &mdash; and valuable in improving our articles. Therefore, I would like the freedom to test out this new method of getting feedback, and to collect actual data (not suppositions) on the types of feedback we get from it. That doesn't seem unreasonable, given that other respected contributors have supported this approach. I was a little shocked that my initial test was reverted without discussion, and I hope to avoid that happening again. Indulge me? :) Willow (talk) 17:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I reverted it and gave my full reasons here. Another one that I've thought of since is that it's not mentioned, and so should not be allowed, by to the manual of style especially MOS:LEAD which is pretty prescriptive as to what can appear at the start of an article.
 * But more generally article mainspace is not the place to do such editing tests. There's your own user space for that, as well as various sandboxes. And this is more than just a simple editing change, it's a change in the way users interact with talk, i.e. a supplement to or replacement for the usual way of using talk pages, and so is potentially a fundamental change to WP. As such it should probably be looked at by not just a few mathematicians but at by the wider readership and editorship at large before it's added to articles, so e.g. it can be properly documented and integrated into e.g. the style guidelines.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 17:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I believe that I have overcome all of your prior objections, and I'll gradually work on these two most recent ones. I must say, though, that I'm surprised by this dogged resistance to a sincere effort to get more and complementary feedback on how to improve our articles. This button idea may be lame, I'll be the first to admit it, but my impression is that this resistance would have arisen no matter what change to the status quo had been proposed. Are we really so hidebound? It seems a shame to give up on all forms of experimentation, which are officially sanctioned by WP:BOLD and WP:IAR. I think we can agree that, collectively, our articles have significant problems, and that we should try to find constructive solutions for them &mdash; as this button aimed to be. It seems, well, a little medieval to close our ears to sincere criticisms and forbid people from taking data to improve things, don't you think? Willow (talk) 18:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I would like to point out that there is a very specific policy against what the OP seems to be asking for. If you look in What Wikipedia is not which is a policy, not just a guideline, it says "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook, or scientific journal". It is an encyclopaedia. Wikibooks and wikiversity were set up for what the OP wants. I'm sorry they are scrappy compared to Wikipedia but that is not an argument for trying to take over their purpose and change Wikipedia to become a textbook on anything. It is a collection of separate article joined by links. One needs to know a bit about a subject to read a full article properly. Wikipedia is not a joined set of pedagogical materials with a clear learning path to gain mastery of a subject.


 * That all said I have some sympathy and I believe we should make it easier for people who do try and use Wikipedia in this fashion. Overviews and books made from the contents can help but I don't know how one could attempt to properly solve the problem with articles aimed at pedagogy and joining up the dots without changing he explicit policy. So overall I don't know how to solve or even if we really should try and solve the OPs problem within Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 17:42, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think there are two ways to address this issue and both of them are in keeping with the nature of Wikipedia. Firstly, use the lead to put the subject of the article in context.  Secondly, use links so that people can look up the bits they don't understand.  For example, the article on Hilbert spaces starts "The mathematical concept of a Hilbert space, named after David Hilbert, generalizes the notion of Euclidean space. It extends the methods of vector algebra and calculus from the two-dimensional Euclidean plane and three-dimensional space to spaces with any finite or infinite number of dimensions."  Yaris678 (talk) 17:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That shows the problem. How do they get at this article? How do they know how to reduce it rather than go in circles? Where should they start? A directed learning would start with the basics, have example, give them a NEXT button to press to progress in their study and have an overview of where they are going and how. This goes nowhere towards puting a study programme on top of Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 18:15, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, Wikipedia articles are definitely not about that sort of thing. If that is how you want to learn then you should try Wikiversity or Wikibooks, as you say.  On the other hand, if you have heard the term "Hilbert Space", and you want to know what it means then Wikipedia is pretty handy.  I would say that Wikipedia works best as a complement to directed learning, rather than a source of it.  So many times in my undergrad degree I lacked the big picture of what a certain area of maths was about.  If Wikipedia had been around then it would have been very handy.  If I'd been able to look up mathematical analysis in my first year I would have realised what they were on about a lot sooner!  Yaris678 (talk) 18:33, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "I think we can agree that, collectively, our articles have significant problems". Sorry, but from my point of view (mostly a user on :en, since I don't feel at ease writing in English), I don't think our articles have "significant problems", or rather that their serious problems are not those pointed by a 75.4.141.69 and some followers here (for me, it would be the too frequent lack of sources). You can call WP:BOLD and WP:IAR to try to repair what is not broken, and indeed be bold, new ideas should be tried -especially when they are really new-, we don't intend (well, not I at least) to "forbid people from taking data to improve things" but if you happen to break what was not broken while trying to repair it, don't be too astounded if somebody politely suggests to stop the experiments. French Tourist (talk) 18:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

It appears a common occurrence in political discussions has occurred here too: switch the subject. The switch is from a discussion about how clearer articles might be arrived at, to a discussion about making WP a teaching tool. Clearer articles would result from two major changes: (i) insistence upon proper sourcing to accessible literature (accessible both in level and in easy availability – not access through JSTOR or some other privileged method) and (ii) inhibition of dog-in-the-manger suppression of editors trying to add clarity by those who aren't happy without a $$\forall x \in V $$. Brews ohare (talk) 21:55, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree with point (i). We should choose the best quality most authoritative secondary sources available, and most of these are still dead tree (possible availability on Google books notwithstanding&mdash;which should not even be a consideration in whether a source is acceptable).  If, as is frequently the case in advanced mathematics, the most authoritative source happens to be a journal article, then we should cite the journal article, rather than some secondhand shoddily researched webpage (*ahem* MathWorld *ahem*), even if the latter is more "accessible" in both senses of the word.  There is nothing wrong with referencing a source that requires access to a local library&mdash;hardly "privileged" for most of the developed world.  Of course, adding more accessible sources (in whatever sense) can also improve the article, but the accessibility of the source should certainly not be the primary consideration.  Sławomir Biały  (talk) 23:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Note that the stupid policy that says that "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook", is frequently violated and that's a good thing. Many of my contributions to Wikipedia are outright violations of this policy, because the whole point of writing technical texts for Wikipedia is not to write a nice encyclopedic text, rather you are writing for an audience that wants to learn something. E.g. the very encyclopedic article on the Yang–Baxter equation is completely and utterly useless. I can make it more encyclopedic, and hence even worse, right now by by mentioning Hopf algebra's in one sentence in that article (but I won't do that) :).

An example of a good math article is Methods of contour integration. We need many more articles like this. Count Iblis (talk) 22:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * If you would go back and look at the original question you'll see that the OP wants a method of teaching themself from the ground up. Making individual articles better is of course a very desirable objective - but it will get nowhere near dealing with what the OP wants. It is not someone who knows about integration along a path and holomorphic functions and is looking up methods of contour integration. It is someone looking up contour integration that doesn't know about complex numbers. Dmcq (talk) 22:20, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I would disagree with that assertion: I just had a look at it for the first time and found it very difficult to read because of the overabundance of mathematical symbols and the reliance on short choppy sentences and bullet points instead of well written paragraphs. In some ways it's a classic example of how not to right a maths article as it looks more like a textbook extract than an encyclopaedia article: very little explanation, lots and lots of worked examples. But WP is not a textbook and should not look like one.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 22:25, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I've had a look at it for the first time, too, and I completely agree: this is, ahem, a textbook example of "It is not appropriate to create or edit articles that read as textbooks, with leading questions and systematic problem solutions as examples." Plus, as JohnBlackburne says, it's not very good at that. Belatedly, I've realized that it was chosen specifically to illustrate CountIblis's agenda-driven point "Note that the stupid policy that says that "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, textbook", is frequently violated and that's a good thing", hence "we need more articles like this" assertion. Arcfrk (talk) 08:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note that it are prominent Wiki-Project Math members who are heavily invoved in that article, not me. I have made zero edits to that article. So, my agenda is at least to some extent supported (perhaps implicitely) by Wikiproject Math. Count Iblis (talk) 14:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:DEADHORSE. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Section break

 * Diversion from the main topic

Wow, all the math cranks tendentious editors are out in force. Gregbard, David Tombe, Brews ohare, and now Count Iblis. All we need is for WAREL or Milogardner to join the party and we'll have bingo. And weren't some combination of Tombe/ohare/Iblis forbidden from interacting with each other by ARBCOM due to past tag-team tendentiousness? —David Eppstein (talk) 22:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yep, an Armada of cranks has descended on Wikiproject math to invade all math articles and convert them to the crank religion. ArbCom had indeed outlawed our religion, so yes, we are in clear violation of that ArbCom ruling. Count Iblis (talk) 23:25, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Dr. Eppstein (or anyone): Do you have a link handy? I'm not familiar with that ruling. CRGreathouse (t | c) 23:35, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, found it: Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light. The relevant passage is:
 * Count Iblis, David Tombe, Likebox, and Hell in a Bucket are indefinitely restricted from advocacy for or commenting on Brews ohare, broadly construed.
 * But that seems to have expired as of June 29. So I don't think there are any restrictions on those editors. Well, not here at least: it looks like David Tombe is banned from "physics-related pages and topics, broadly construed" until October 20. But that should have no relevance here.
 * (Also, it seems somewhat odd, but perhaps only because I don't see the physics articles much: Count Iblis seems like a fine, productive editor -- I was surprised to see his (?) involvement.)
 * CRGreathouse (t | c) 23:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

CRGreathouse, see here, if you have the time to read it Count Iblis (talk) 00:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Gee, who would have guess that the issue would devolve into calling people's credibility into question at WP:MATH? (You know, it's surprising because we have such civil, decent, non-arrogant people here). Excuse me, why exactly am I counted among the "cranks?" This is yet another reason the members of WP:MATH should be ashamed of themselves. Greg Bard (talk) 01:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes Greg, I agree, it's absolutely shameful how hard it is to format a mathematical formula in Wiki markup. 192.5.16.65 (talk) 04:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Greg, I have trouble following your implications. Why should the members of WikiProject Mathematics be ashamed of themselves? CRGreathouse (t | c) 04:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * [Sarcastically] On the principle that guilt should be assigned collectively. Some members of this project have allegedly abused Greg, so all of us are guilty. If you remember, he tried to convince arbitcom of this idea previously. JRSpriggs (talk) 06:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know if that's what Greg was saying, thus my request for clarification. CRGreathouse (t | c) 18:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Back to the main topic

Dmcq, yes, but then everyone has some knowledge from which he/she can learn more. The OP says that the things he doesn't know are not linked to. But if we write all wikipedia articles in textbook style and have wikilinks for almost everything, then you have a sort-of multidimensional textbook for all of math that is superior to any conventional textbook. Count Iblis (talk) 23:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

John, the contour integration article can be written up better, but it would still be textbook style. I don't think it would be bad at all to make this the standard format for math and physics articles. Count Iblis (talk) 23:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The issues remain accessible sourcing and encouraging edits that increase readability. That could be done by a community resolve to come to the aid of editors subject to reversion on what seems simply grounds of "technical aesthetic", and clearly inimical to clarification and ease of use. Some guidelines to aid in assessing article utility could be developed that could be invoked to resist reversions based upon mathematical aesthetics.


 * Another useful tack would be to identify articles that provide a good model of user friendliness, for example, a suggestion made was Contour integration. Perhaps a further discussion of this example or comparisons of this one with other candidates (I like Pythagorean theorem) would be helpful in developing what is wanted? Brews ohare (talk) 14:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Regarding your personal number one priority of "accessible sourcing", I have already voiced my own disagreement with this priority. Botton line: a guideline that encourages shoddy "accessible" sources like MathWorld as opposed to authoritative dead tree sources should most definitely not be entertained.  Sławomir Biały  (talk) 15:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is not really a question of "shoddy" (better less reputable) but easily accessible sources versus distinguished/reputable but less accessible sources. An articles can have both and just needs to treat the material accordingly. There is a different between material used as an actual reference for the article content and additional links which are just provided for reader's convenience and pedagogic reasons. For the former we the need to insist on reputability, no matter whether it is easily accessible or not. But for the latter reputability is not really an issue, but here easy access is much important. This concerns stuff you could put under external links and it may include private websites, student websites, free tutoring material, wikkibooks, wikiversity etc. It is of course required that those links are only added, when the editor has checked their accuracy and that they indeed illustrate some math topic in a lucid, easily understandable manner and hence are really a plus for many readers.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:22, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding of Brews's original post on this topic was that he indicated a preference for material that was available via weblinks as actual sources for an article. Moreover, such links were not to be mere convenience links to JSTOR (because JSTOR is not available outside of libraries).  Barring links to Google books (which I don't personally feel we should link to at all), this pretty much leaves MathWorld and its ilk.  Clearly a bad idea.  External links are just fine, as long as they don't impinge on content referenced to decent sources.  Sławomir Biały  (talk) 12:29, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well as I said, I agree that replacing reputable sources by non reputable online sources is certainly out of the question. However the original theme of this thread was about making math articles more accessible and doing that by providing material being accessible online. That can (and should be) done. As far as barring links to Google Books links (or other digitized material) are concerned I disagree completely. Google Books is extremely useful for references (in particular in the form of notes), in particular it allows an easy online verification by a large number of editors, which for a project such as WP is imho an invaluable asset.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:46, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think accessible sourcing is great. We shouldn't remove good inaccessible sources, of course, but if there are accessible resources available they may be worth adding. Ceteris paribus, adding  to an article with half a dozen references to papers from Acta Mathematica Lithuania won't hurt and may help. (I don't think anyone's suggesting replacing dead-tree resources or flooding articles with low-quality sources.)
 * And of course there are many times that the highest-quality resource will already be accessible.
 * CRGreathouse (t | c) 18:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I decline to comment on possible reasons for Greg's inability to understand mathematical articles as presently written, either on Wikipedia, or in the actual mathematical literature. The fact that he does not understand mathematical articles has, however, been established.  However, if we could come up with something he could understand, it might be an improvement.  Hence, his suggestions might be helpful if they don't violate the pillars, or make the article more difficult to understand for most people.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 18:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I see this has been said before, sarcastically. I just want to point out that there are real problems in Greg's behavior, possibly due to lack of understanding, and, if that understanding can be improved, it may be good for Wikipedia.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 19:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * On one hand, I'd like to make articles as easy to read as possible, even for those without advanced math training. On the other hand, Wikipedia is WP:NOT a textbook -- and the format is not particularly conducive to pedagogy (unlike, perhaps, Wikiversity?). I'm not sure what the right balance is. Ideally, we'd simply have links available to our sister projects for those who need educational material, but practically this isn't workable because Wikipedia is far more popular while the other projects have essentially stagnated. CRGreathouse (t | c) 19:21, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is a very simple suggestion: require all articles to have in-line sources, a See also subsection identifying related topics, and never to use a mathematical term or notation without a definition or a link to another article where it is defined and discussed. Brews ohare (talk) 19:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * See WP:OVERLINKING. Do you really think it would be a good idea to link the + sign to addition in every mathematics article? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with your suggestion, Brews. In-line sourcing is often inappropriate in math articles, overlinking is a real problem (and doesn't really address the issue at hand for non-experts!), and WP:SEEALSO says that See also links should be incorporated into the article when possible and removed from that section when they are. I really have no common ground with you here. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, if we do add links for everything, Wikipedia itself will understand math? Count Iblis (talk) 20:41, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There are better ways to add metadata than links. CRGreathouse (t | c) 21:37, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. Suppose you have a bot that browses online math resources and uses Wikipedia to interpet the meaning and then is able to maintain math articles or write new math articles. Then Wikipedia would be contributing to its own knowledge and we could perhaps say that Wikipedia is an intelligent agent expanding its own knowledge. Count Iblis (talk) 22:57, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be cool. I like microformats for that, personally -- see WP:UF. CRGreathouse (t | c) 23:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In-line sourcing is often inappropriate in math articles? I'd say math is no different than physics or engineering in this regard. There are two purposes for in-line sources: one is the scholarly purpose of providing a source to back up an assertion. Another is the expository purpose of explaining what is meant to those not in the in-crowd. Neither purpose is less important in math articles than in physics or engineering or chemical or etc articles. However, math articles in WP are much inferior in employing them. I think it may be because math writers are very used to writing for a very narrow audience of cognoscenti compared to writers in these other fields. Or. maybe that is just WP math editors? Brews ohare (talk) 03:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Might I introduce you to the Fly–Honey Thesis? CRGreathouse (t | c) 05:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

One issue with an overemphasis on inline sourcing is that in practice it can lead to low-value sources such as. There is no reason that the article "automorphism", which is on elementary abstract algebra, should be citing a book in computational engineering for a basic fact about group automorphisms. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 11:18, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The WP:SCICITE does say that having too many inline sources can disrupt the flow of an article. Adding a citation to an individual sentence or equation often obscures the fact that a given citation was intended for an entire section or paragraph. I have seen people add piles of inline citations to completely standard statements in the midst of a section that was already cited to one authoritative source. This style of referencing seems to miss the forest for the trees.  Mathematics articles don't need citations for every single equation (that falls under "common knowledge"), rather they need citations for the theorems, as well as the overarching concepts, etc. Inline citations are a good thing overall, it is important not to overdo things.   Sławomir Biały  (talk) 13:01, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

In an article about a very basic topic (like absolute difference, which I just wrote) it really does link to absolute value and subtraction. In a more advanced, specialized topic, this doesn't make a lot of sense, since it wouldn't generally be useful to learn about that topic until you'd already studied background in that general area. Every article comes with some assumptions about the background of the reader, and is generally targeted based on the expected demographics of that particular article's readers; the website's technology is simply not constructed in a way to easily adapt to serve people of diverse backgrounds. We could consider things like footnotes and collapsible sections - the latter creates problems for print versions however. I think we need new and different technology to adequately address the concerns raised here. Another issue is that we do sometimes make poor assumptions about the order in which people learn things (e.g. if they know about graph theory, they must know about high school algebra) that are artifacts of the dominant school system, rather than inherent. Dcoetzee 12:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd say that Carl's sniffing at a source cited to provide some background on automorphism because it is an engineering text is an example of the problems here. (Like my undergrad university math prof, who used to say his office was in the building opposite St. Joseph's Dormitory, because he didn't want to mention the Civil Engineering Building.) First, there are exactly three sources in Automorphism, of which this is one. It could use more. Second, this source does a perfectly OK job of describing the group automorphism, and is preferable to no source at all. Third, if a pure math source can be found that is understandable, why not replace this source with that one, instead of griping about it (or, as often occurs, removing it with no substitute)? Pure parochialism. Brews ohare (talk) 13:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In this case, it's not "better than nothing", because if no reference is given everyone knows to just look up a standard group theory text. It's misleading to use an engineering text as a reference for a basic topic like this in group theory, because it suggests there is something in that source that is not in the standard literature. And it's also sophomoric: if a student were to use a reference like that on a class assignment, or an author were to do it in a paper being refereed, we would instantly notice it and point out they should use references relevant to the field of study. We expect that Wikipedia authors will invest the necessary time to look up references in the field of the article, rather than adding "references" from other fields that would never be used in similar mathematical settings in print. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * “We expect that Wikipedia authors will invest the necessary time to look up references in the field of the article” unless, of course, they are math editors, in which case few or no sources are needed. Brews ohare (talk) 15:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * If you wish to start a separate thread on sourcing of articles, go ahead. Otherwise this looks like serial coatracking. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You forgot to give the link: Coatrack :) Count Iblis (talk) 15:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I somewhat disagree with Carl here and I think Brews ohare has a point. Such a reference is indeed "better than nothing" and as far as "expectation of wp authors" are concerned I'd rather say we expect them to properly source their articles in the first place, so that a "better than nothing" (no sources) situation doesn't even appear. Meanwhile expectation aside we need to deal with the actual behaviour of authors, such as producing sourceless articles. In such cases a less than optimal but still generally reputable and correct source is a reasonable temporary solution until a better source comes along. I agree however with the postings above me that this issue should be discussed in a separate thread regarding sourcing.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That horse has left the barn: the majority of topics for common mathematical terms have already been created. So the real question is about adding sources to articles that already exist, rather than about adding sources to newly created articles. There are, of course, many topics that do not have articles, but most established editors realize the benefits of adding sources to new articles.


 * Now there is a large backlog of existing articles that would benefit from additional sourcing, and the main limiting factor is time of knowledgeable editors to add them. My viewpoint is that if an editor does not want to do the job professionally, using proper sources such as mathematics textbooks and journal articles, he or she should leave the job to someone else. There is no hurry, and no reason to do a hasty job using sources that are clearly inappropriate to the topic.


 * If we really wanted, we could add some standard abstract algebra textbooks to every algebra article, and similarly for other topics. We haven't done that exactly because we have higher standards. But maybe we should do it as a form of appeasement. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 15:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well there I somewhat disagree. One decisive factor of wikipedia's success (but arguably also it achilles' heel) is, that it is/was not created as a professional job, but that it is and always will be a patchwork process, where most/many articles will reach the level of a professional job over time. But this is an incremental process and we need an intermediate approach that provides some form verifiability and external sources/additional reading to average (=non expert) readers in the mean time. In addition this approach allows "honest" sourcing, i.e. non mathematicians writing math articles can provide the sources they've actually used, that also provides a better track record to see where various content originated from. The "optimal sourcing or no sourcing at all"-approach you seem to suggest is imho not desirable and somewhat ignores the way WP functions. As far as the algebra textbooks and sourceless algebra articles are concerned, I can't really see how not adding them would be adhere to any "higher standard". If I come across a sourceless algebra article and its content is covered by reputable algebra textbook, I won't hesitate to add it (not as appeasement but for the benefit of readers).--Kmhkmh (talk) 16:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Another proposal. Let us first copy a bunch of WP articles to Wikiversity, and then gradually change them there in order to fit the need of self-study. Does it make sense? Boris Tsirelson (talk) 06:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Various things make sense. This thread seems to be over 60K now and is approaching 10,000 words. What makes most sense to me is that we (i) take accessibility of our articles seriously in some institutional way, and (ii) do not stop trying to cover contemporary mathematics well, which is our strength. We clearly need a separate forum for the "access" issues, if necessary moderated to stop it being dominated by single-issue politicians and others with an agenda. We need a place where the issues can be hashed out, and if necessary we can carry out liaison with people from Wikibooks and Wikiversity. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Fox Talbot
I see from working on Talbot, William Henry Fox (DNB00) that William Fox Talbot, known as a photographic pioneer, also wrote a fair amount of mathematics. The DNB article says he might have rediscovered Abel's theorem in geometry; which I kind of doubt. But his mathematics is not currently mentioned in his WP article. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:35, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * His mathematics has a very small mention in our article, which notes that he was twelth wrangler in 1821 and says "From 1822 to 1872, he frequently communicated papers to the Royal Society, many of them on mathematical subjects". His entry at ACAD describes him as a "mathematician and pioneer of early photography", and I believe Talbot's Curve is named after him. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:02, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There is an extensive biography here but there isn't much information on mathematics. He is the namesake of Talbot's Curve though.--RDBury (talk) 15:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Request help at Talk:Seven-dimensional cross product.
I think it's better to post here than post a general RfC, as some of the concerns are fairly technical, but if someone could look over the points of differences and comment it would be appreciated. The main discussion starts here.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 15:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Scriptstyle
There seems to be a trend to replace all inline LaTeX with \scriptstyle. I think it may be time to revisit our WP:MOSMATH recommendation concerning the use of scriptstyle. My impression is that it should be used only under very exceptional circumstances, but perhaps I am in the shrinking minority. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. We should not use scriptstyle for inline text. It's not only semantically wrong, it will lead to problems when we introduce a better TeX display system. But I have not seen this sort of trend on mathematical logic articles. Is there a particular class of articles where the change is being widely made? &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:16, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I just noticed it in Fourier transform today and not too long ago in Positive-definite matrix. Two articles may not exactly be a "trend" per se, but it definitely shows that more than one editor out there is reading our MoS the wrong way.  Sławomir Biały  (talk) 14:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It already leads to problems in the current TeX display system, it looks ugly in many ways. This is an inherent feature of TeX, script style simply was not designed to be abused as the main math style.—Emil J. 14:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * For people who don't realize how scriptstyle affects things, compare $$\scriptstyle {x+2^{n_i}}$$ with $$x + 2^{n_i}$$. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. But the most obvious difference is that scriptstyle is about 80% or 90% of the body text size on my browser. Without scriptstyle it's more like 200%. I think non-scriptstyle math should only be used for displayed formulas, because it is far too intrusive for inline text. Since scriptstyle math also has its problems, maybe the lesson is that we should only inline math if we can do it in html? —David Eppstein (talk) 15:28, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I would be inclined to agree with David Eppstein on using HTML in-line. However, I am afraid that some readers will fail to connect the HTML with the corresponding symbols in the display formulas. For example, tau: &tau; does not look much like $$\tau$$ or $$\tau\,.$$ So I feel that we need to use one version consistently, namely $$\tau\,.$$ JRSpriggs (talk) 17:43, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

What do people think of edits such as, , , , , , , , , ? Ozob (talk) 03:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * These should be reverted. Not only is the editor replacing inline TeX with /scriptstyle, but he is also replacing html with /scriptstyle.  It is clearly time to revisit our MoS recommendation, since more than one editor at least is reading it as a mandate to replace inline LaTeX with /scriptstyle.   Sławomir Biały  (talk) 11:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Without scriptstyle, "displayed" TeX is about three times the size of the surrounding text in my browser window. With or without scriptsyle, "inline" (as opposed to "displayed") TeX usually gets misaligned. To high or to low, or the period or comma that follows it appears at the beginning of the next line, etc. Michael Hardy (talk) 03:53, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see replacing all of our inline formulas with /scriptstyle as a viable option for fixing Wikipedia's broken TeX system. It isn't just a scaled down version of the usual LaTeX, but the spacing has been changed in a way that squashes everything together.  The relative size of the glyphs also doesn't look right.  We shouldn't use it, except as a last resort.   Sławomir Biały  (talk) 11:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that of the two options for inline math (latex or html), html is visually preferable in general; however, it fails to do certain simple things such as place a superscript and subscript vertically aligned as in $$L^a_b$$ (as far as I know one can only accomplish Lɑb or Lbɑ) (Also note that I've had to use the IPA "script a" above for the a to display as it would in math; many editors don't know where to find this character) (Even more annoying is trying to get $$\varphi$$: in my editor, φ shows up as "varphi", but not when the page is displayed; to get "varphi" displayed I need to put it in a span element and change the style like this: <span style="font-family:Times New Roman, serif;">φ (this problem is apparently browser specifc, and I guess firefox 3.6.6 on a mac isn't good enough)). So, at the very least, David Eppstein's suggestion would require allowing certain exceptions (it wouldn't make any sense to write $$L^a_b$$ not inline if its simply the name of an object). RobHar (talk) 04:28, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * you can do $L b a$, or even $L b a$ using templates. The style of small 'a' is just a font diference, something controlled by the user's browser settings, WP preferences and optionally overridden by a custom stylesheet. To me they both look like the letter 'a'. I don't know about the φ problem: Greek letters are used quite a lot in maths articles and I use them myself regularly. I don't know if Help:Special characters is any help on this.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 11:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! RobHar (talk) 00:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Fourier_transform for examples. Bo Jacoby (talk) 21:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC).

Update. I removed the text from WP:MOSMATH that seemed to encourage scriptstyle. We should move this discussion to WT:MOSMATH. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:24, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Use \colon instead of :
Just a minor guideline suggestion: to define maps and functions, latex has the special character "\colon", which is a little bit closer to the left than ":". For example

Correct version
 * $$f\colon\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$$

Incorrect version
 * $$f : \mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$$

Note the for the definition sign (:=) and quantors, you should still use ":". For example
 * $$\forall x \in\mathbb{R}\exists y\in\mathbb{R} : y^2 = x$$

-- Roman3 (talk) 13:17, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I prefer to write
 * $$ \forall x \in\mathbb{R}\, \exists y\in\mathbb{R} $$
 * with at least a small space between the two quantifiers. Michael Hardy (talk) 22:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should start a new page, e.g. WikiProject Mathematics/Using LaTeX to document the best use of Latex on Wikipedia. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:23, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure if we need a whole new page, maybe just add a section to WP:MOSMATH or WP:MATH and see how big it gets.--RDBury (talk) 14:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There are too many of these things to list on the WP:MOSMATH page; that page needs to be kept reasonably short if we expect anyone to read it, and LaTeX formatting is just one topic among many there. WP:MATH is a good candidate. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I completely agree, the WP:MOSMATH should focus on the important parts rather providing "mandates" for minor differences or turning into a hint & tricks section.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:47, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Reminder: We have this page: WikiProject Mathematics/Typography. Michael Hardy (talk) 22:23, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

E8 spam
The article E8 (mathematics) gets a steady trickle of links to fringe websites and theories, and could do with being on a few more watchlists.

This may be partly because of some new age religion that got excited about E8 a few years back. The fringe websites about E8 all have some really impressive and colorful graphics explaining their theories, some of which seem to be creeping into the wikipedia article. r.e.b. (talk) 14:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know whether fringe sects are to blame for this, but the lead currently claims that there are 3 real forms of Lie algebra E8 and 5 real forms of Lie group (mismatch!). [On a second thought, this is probably due to covers, which aren't currently explained well on WP.] Frankly, the circumstances under which that article underwent major expansion were indicative of this kind of naive mysticism. Arcfrk (talk) 21:47, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The claim in lead is correct: simple Lie algebras can correspond to more than 1 Lie group, as the Lie group can have a nontrivial center. r.e.b. (talk) 22:01, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, later on in the article, in spite of briefly identifying five different groups (compact simply-connected, split s.c. with center Z2 and non-compact non-split s.c. with center Z2, it is claimed that there are three real forms of Lie algebras and Lie groups of type E8. Can you, please, source that section? I took a brief look at the Adams reference, and it's not cleanly stated there. Arcfrk (talk) 23:20, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Typo fixed. r.e.b. (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Trigenus
Could someone familiar with the field look at Trigenus? It was written in what looks like non-fluent English. I wikified it some, but I don't know the field well enough to make all the sentences clear. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 14:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It raises a notability flag for me when all I see are a few research journals under references. The two issues are probably related; if there are only a few people who understand the subject then the chances of getting enough people who also have the skills to write a decent WP article about it are slim to none.--RDBury (talk) 15:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not obvious to me why we need separate articles on this, Heegaard splitting, and handle decompositions of 3-manifolds. For that matter, I also don't understand how the orientable trigenus can take the form (0,0,g) — I thought that in a Heegaard splitting the two handlebodies had to have the same genus, so shouldn't it be (0,g,g)? Maybe some sort of merge is called for? —David Eppstein (talk) 19:48, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Funny placement of degrees in Tex
Have a look at
 * $$\frac{\pi}{180^\circ}$$ and $$180^\circ$$

Does it look like something strange has happened to the \circ in the first case? Or is it that the number should be smaller? Dmcq (talk) 15:06, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just an adjustment TeX makes to superscripts below a fraction bar. The same thing happens here:
 * $$\frac{\pi}{180^2}$$ and $$180^2\,$$
 * This is the type of thing that you could see for years and never notice, until it suddenly dawns on you that an adjustment has been made. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 15:12, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that ^\circ is a bit of a kludgy way to do degrees in the first place; does TeX have a degree symbol? TeX seems to choke if you try feeding it ° directly.--RDBury (talk) 15:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The standard advice for how to make degree symbols in LaTeX is ^\circ, or maybe \ensuremath{^\circ}. You can find LaTeX packages that define \degree but as far as I can tell they expand it into the same thing. You could work around it by using \textstyle, which doesn't quite place the degree symbol as high as it does outside the frac but is a lot better: \frac{\pi}{\textstyle 180^\circ} expands into $$\frac{\pi}{\textstyle 180^\circ}$$. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:26, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this case is sufficiently weird looking to warrant a workaround. Okay I'll try and remember that thanks. And thanks to CBM for the explanation, I guess I'm happy with the adjustment normally and the alternatives would probably be worse. Dmcq (talk) 11:31, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

False precision
The article titled false precision could use some improvements in two forms: inline citations, and more good examples. Michael Hardy (talk) 21:02, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

"Fundamental theorem of arithmetic"?
Maybe some people here can shed some light on this query? Michael Hardy (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

א0
FYI, א0 has been nominated for deletion. 76.66.193.119 (talk) 00:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really see it as of interest to this project, but I probably should have noted it here, anyway. RTL in Wikipedia article names is problematic, at best.  It's even worse in redirects, and still worse in section headings.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 19:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Fractions
Please note the conflict between WP:MOSNUM and WP:MOSMATH, and comment, if you wish to, at WT:MOSNUM. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Pages needing attention/Mathematics followup
I finished changing the manual list of issues in the Pages needing attention/Mathematics page to cleanup tags and removed the section as mentioned above. I just removed the issues that were already resolved and added the appropriate cleanup/expand/merge tags to the article for the ones that weren't.

I noticed the Statistics Project uses a different bot for their cleanup listings; it has some advantages and some disadvantages compared with the one we're using. See WikiProject Statistics/Cleanup listing for a sample.--RDBury (talk) 13:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The stats page looks better to me. There are some important tables at the top that contain information that we don't get on our page.  Can you summaries the advantages and disadvantages?  Yaris678 (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The advantages of the bot the Statistics Project uses are pretty much what you said. The first disadvantage is that it only works for articles with a project tag in the talk page. Many WPMATH articles don't have the tag is the results would be incomplete in our case. The second disadvantage is that the update schedule is based on the schedule for WP's database dump which is relatively infrequent.--RDBury (talk) 09:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Small POV-pushing on Guillaume de l'Hôpital
I gave up, but someone should have a look. Anne Bauval (talk) 16:52, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Bauval just added a link (at the French page) to an 18th century edition of l'Hopital's book, published under the title... "Infinitesimal calculus": Calculi infinitesimalis Pars I, seu calculus differentialis, expositus analysi infinite parvorum : édition de 1764 (Trattner) de l'Analyse des infiniment petits, numérisée par le SCD de l'université de Strasbourg.  Tkuvho (talk) 15:42, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Main languages of modern mathematics
At Q.E.D. it says "... French, German, Italian and Russian (which are, together with English, the main languages of modern mathematical publication)[citation needed]". Is this verifiable? I would guess that there are certain journals that only accept papers in these languages, or some similar situation (?) - possibly it just needs one more sentence and a ref, for this additional context. Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 00:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Italian? CRGreathouse (t | c) 00:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The info page for grad students at harvard says "Mathematics is an international subject in which the principal languages are English, French, German, and Russian. Almost all important work is published in one of these four languages, although much Russian work is translated into English." They also allow certain students to pass the italian language exam if it is pertinent to their field of study. The princeton math department had a similar setup until recently, though they appear to have dropped the italian option. Crelle's journal currently accepts English, French, and German for publication . Italian is less popular now, but was certainly quite big in the time of the italian school of algebraic geometry. RobHar (talk) 00:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the issue is more a request to fill in a reference and get rid of the citation needed tag.--RDBury (talk) 12:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * My unsubstantiated personal opinion is that Japanese has surpassed Italian quite some time ago. Arcfrk (talk) 06:12, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Well I definitely miss Chinese and Spanish, in particular since the statement doesn't indicate any restriction on large, internationally oriented journals or the availability of translations. In general it seems more targeted more towards important historic publication than current publications.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting question, but just delete it (also a vague question without a really satisfactory answer) as editorial comment. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Said in true mathoverflow style;)89.243.232.96 (talk) 16:13, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it would be worth trying to find a source (I guess more reliable than the harvard math website) on this subject. I view the statement as being essentially correct. I would say that the following is a more accurate statement: currently, a majority of important papers are available in either English or French. Up until fairly recently, one might have needed to read it in German or Russian or even Japanese (or in the latter two cases, wait a bit for its translation into English). Going back a bit further would require Italian. I think these are interesting facts, though I wouldn't be surprised if no one has written an authoritative article on the subject. RobHar (talk) 18:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've removed the statement for now, per Charles' suggestion (before I saw RobHar's reply). Feel free to revert and ref, or improve the section in any way you see fit. Thanks all. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Outline of mathematics
We currently have two articles, List of topics in mathematics and Areas of mathematics, which would seem to serve as outlines of mathematics. The first one is the current redirect target for "Outline of mathematics" as given in Portal:Contents/Outline of Knowledge. We also have Lists of mathematics topics which has been proposed for a merge with the first article. The second article, based on the AMS subject classification, is written more like an outline, but is in an unfinished state since there are explanations for only about half if the subjects. We need a target for OoK, but I'm thinking the second article, if improved and renamed, would make a better one. On the other hand I'm not entirely convinced that we shouldn't just merge all three articles. There was some controversy last year related to this, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics/Archive 54, and I'd like to avoid opening that can of worms again. But I don't think the current state is the desired one and there should be some discussion on which direction we should go.--RDBury (talk) 13:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Basing it on the AMS classification seems like a good starting point. I like the structure of the Areas of mathematics article. It also provides decent headings over which to divide suboutlines. A comprehensive outline is an excellent idea in general and well suited to the topic of mathematics. Richard Thomas (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * RDBury: The main controversies about Outlines seem to be 1) "what topic merits an outline?", 2) "how should they be titled?" (some editors really dislike the word "outline" in these; they used to be called "Basic topic lists") and 3) "what namespace do they belong in?". There are a few editors still trying to draft an RfC about all that (Outline RfC draft), which will be widely publicized eventually. In the end, it shouldn't interfere with the existence of this top level outline (except possibly for the title). However, there are another 11 subsidiary outlines listed at Portal:Contents/Outline of Knowledge, that I'm not as sure about the fate of. HTH. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I've used mathematics as a main example in an RfC I'm still drafting (Navigational pages RfC), so here's some details, which should help this thread. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * A slightly clearer, refactored version of the list, edited by Verbal, now appears below. -- Quiddity (talk) 05:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been trying to help maintain/organize Portal:Contents and its contents for a few years, and can possibly answer any questions you have regarding background (e.g. the disagreements over naming conventions, and namespaces). And yes, other topic areas are just as navigationally prolific! Hope that helps. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Mathematics - covering ~24,000 articles (according to WikiProject Mathematics/Count), we have:
 * Portal:Mathematics
 * Category:Mathematics - (and the mainspace page, List of mathematics categories)
 * Template:Mathematics-footer - (main navbox)
 * Lists of mathematics topics - (This contains only lists. It is a "list of lists")
 * Outline of mathematics - (started titled as "Mathematics basic topics" in 2001; currently titled "List of topics in mathematics")
 * Index of mathematics articles - (an alphabetical index; updated by Mathbot; originally and currently titled "List of mathematics articles")
 * Mathematical jargon - (glossary)
 * Areas of mathematics - (aka "Branches of mathematics")
 * Possibly also related is List of academic disciplines
 * and Book:Mathematics
 * Your list is slightly misleading, as the "outline" neither started as or is currently an outline. That entry should read "List of topics in mathematics - (started titled as "Mathematics basic topics" in 2001; was briefly titled "Outline of mathematics" without consensus) ". Please change it so as not to misrepresent the current or historical state of these navigation pages. <b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b> chat  19:05, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I do think the "jargon" page should probably be renamed to the glossary format. Also, of your list only the "areas", 2 lists, and index have any overlap - so those should be the focus. The others seem to confuse the issue (please don't think I'm implying this was intentional, I'm trying to simplify the problem). <b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b> chat  19:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The listing of all the "navigation and overview" type pages, is meant to assist the discussion, by showing what the other methods of "topic-list" there currently are, in all the namespaces.
 * I used "Outline" as the primary mention in that item, because 1) that is what the set of pages is currently called (despite a few page titles being edit-warred over) as this thread is titled and discussed. 2) The same goes for the "Index" (not currently or originally called "index"), and as you suggest with regard to the potentially-confusing naming of the jargon/glossary page - One of the main intents of the "outline" naming convention was to make the differences more obvious - It is less clear to have
 * "Lists of mathematics topics" and "List of topics in mathematics" and "List of mathematics articles"
 * than it is to have
 * "Lists of mathematics topics" and "Outline of mathematics" and "Index of mathematics articles".
 * You object strongly to the "outline" naming scheme, and that's okay, but it does have strong precedent (the Propaedia and many other books use the word "outline" without discomfort) and many editors disagree with your objections (hence the rfc is needed). I still think your animosity towards some of the TheTranshumanist's edits, are making this title-dispute into something worse than it otherwise would be.
 * We started off trying to clear up the mess that was Wikipedia:Category schemes and List of reference tables. You disagree with part of the solution that editors came up with. I disagree with some of the components too. Let's discuss that somewhere relevant, eg the rfc page, and let the people here concentrate on the mathematics pages. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:58, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, this article never belonged to that "set". It was incorrectly and inappropriately renamed in the past to "outline", and that was undone when noted. It is not and was not an "outline". Please correct your summary. (The point about strong precedent is also wrong, as I have shown elsewhere, but is entirely irrelevant to this discussion). Your choice of summary name "topic-outline" is also loaded and shows your, unintended, bias. Overview or list (supported article types) are much better terms. Many editors is also wrong (three) <b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b> chat  21:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The person who started this thread titled it "Outline of mathematics", and asked for discussion regarding "outlines of mathematics". I don't particularly care what we call the BasicTopicsOutlineLists, you're the one edit warring over titles. Again, this isn't the appropriate place to discuss it. (And please visit a library, and pick up the Propaedia, which has existed uninterrupted since 1974, with the subtitle "Outline of Knowledge"). -- Quiddity (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The Propaedia is excellent, I've used it since the '80s. But its use of "Outline" is anomalous, and I don't think we should follow suit. CRGreathouse (t | c) 22:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with you and Verbal that the word "outline" is imperfect and a bit ambiguous (and I agree with the other editors that "basic topic list" and "topical outline" are also imperfect); I'm not sure whether it's anomalous though, as there are many (thousands?) of publications that use "outline of ..." in their title (including pun-like "outline of geography" titles).
 * However, the misunderstanding here, is Verbal seems to believe that the Propaedia was removed from the EB at some point after it was started (see this thread); I'm not sure how he arrived at this erroneous conclusion.
 * I do hope all this tangenting helps give some context, and hasn't just irritated everyone. It is a can of worms, but it's an interesting family of worms! -- Quiddity (talk) 23:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Please don't misrepresent my actions (editwaring has not happened here) and please don't misrepresent what I have written elsewhere, and say I have "misunderstood" - you agreed was correct when I expanded on my comment. As CRGreathouse said, the outline was an anomaly. It makes me lose respect for you. <b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b> chat  08:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have explained the history of the Propaedia (See History of the Encyclopædia Britannica for our article's clear description), and your provably-incorrect statements regarding its "removal", at User talk:Quiddity.
 * There was a lot of page-name move-warring in October 2009 and May 2010, and the last 6 weeks of edit warring with 3 other editors, up until today, which I'm still staying out of.
 * When CRGreathouse said "anomalous", he was referring to the title convention, not the book. He said the book itself "is excellent, I've used it since the '80s". -- Quiddity (talk) 18:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Rather than continue this delightful yet off topic conversation, I'll conclude here with a note that the above comment is again misleading. I was immediately unblocked and was never involved in any page move warring. <b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b> chat  19:09, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is a more useful and less biased form of the list:
 * Main article: Mathematics - covering ~24,000 articles (according to WikiProject Mathematics/Count), we have:


 * Portal: Portal:Mathematics


 * Category: Category:Mathematics - (and the mainspace page, List of mathematics categories)
 * Template: Template:Mathematics-footer - (main navbox)
 * List articles:


 * Lists of mathematics topics - (This contains only lists. It is a "list of lists")
 * List of topics in mathematics - (started titled as "Mathematics basic topics" in 2001; was briefly titled "Outline of mathematics" without consensus)
 * Index of mathematics articles - (an alphabetical index; updated by Mathbot; originally and currently titled "List of mathematics articles")
 * Mathematical jargon - (glossary)
 * Areas of mathematics - (aka "Branches of mathematics")
 * Other:

This gives the correct current and historical state, and is spilt to show that there is not so much overlap as the previous list implied (though there may still be a problem). <b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b> chat  08:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Possibly also related is List of academic disciplines
 * and Book:Mathematics


 * "Outline", short for "Hierarchical outline", still describes the contents of the "List of topics in mathematics". It is a hierarchical outline, that is, a hierarchically structured list, regardless of the title.  To claim that it is "not an outline" just because it isn't entitled "Outline of" is just plain silly.  A horse is still a horse, even if you correctly label it a quadruped.  The Transhumanist  19:57, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Mathematical jargon rename
I have proposed renaming Mathematical jargon to the standard glossary format, per discussion above. Please see the discussion on the talk page. <b style="color:#C72">Verbal</b> chat  10:13, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree, please see the discussion on the talk page. Ulner (talk) 20:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC)