Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics/Archive/2009/Aug

Hopkin's theorem
There does not appear to be an article on the important "Hopkin's theorem" due to Charles Hopkins. Although I am aware that this theorem is referred to by other names (such as in the Wikipedia article Artinian ring), none of these names seem to yield an article. Does anyone know if there is an article on the fact that a right (or left) artinian ring is right (or left) Noetherian? Thanks, -- PS T  09:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If there's nothing more to say about the theorem than what you've said, then I'd just create a redirect to Artinian ring, and maybe mention the name Hopkins' theorem or Hopkins's theorem there. Not Hopkin's theorem of course -- I assume that was a momentary lapse on your part. --Trovatore (talk) 20:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

a little help with style at Schauder estimates
Hi - I thought what I had up was more or less in line with WP:SCICITE -- after all, the material is basically formulae pulled out of a textbook, and inline referencing would have been fairly redundant. I'm a little hesitant to remove the tags the newpage patroller put up, and I would like some feedback -- are there any glaring deficiencies in the article? Thanks, Ray  Talk 06:51, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The article is probably OK, and I've taken down one of the templates. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Formatting of equations etc.
I know this is not the right place to ask this but I really would like to find the guidelines/policy for how to format math equations and the like on wiki. cheers. 114.30.110.26 (talk) 10:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Try MOS:MATH. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The Manual of Style tells you what to do. To see how to do it, see Help:Displaying a formula. JRSpriggs (talk) 12:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

just a heads up
I tagged Mathematical Association of America with your project. Cheers.  APK  that's not my name  21:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Mathematics GA status
I know for the most part we've decided to ignore GA and I support that, but I don't think the unilateral action by User:Gary King is tolerable. Please take a look. --Trovatore (talk) 04:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be at Talk:Mathematics/GA1; I've commented there. This sort of unilateral "review" is how Gratuitous Aggravation does things; it gives a feeling of power to those who know nothing about a subject and do not understand our actual guidelines, so it will probably continue. Our recourses are three:
 * Take this to WP:GAR, where the GA for Special relativity now is.
 * Take over, or abolish, GA, which would be best if practical - but is it?
 * Ignore it. This is the easiest, so we'll probably do it.
 * One active variant of #3 would be to withdraw all mathematical and scientific articles from GA and FA, making a note on the respective pages that this has been done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you take the nuclear option (#4), please realize that this means creating a rift between mathematical articles and the rest of the project. While it is true that WP:MATH may be better served that way, most visitors would not know this, and may incorrectly judge the articles. Second, the internal A-class discussions need to be thoroughly revived. -- Avi (talk) 18:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (renumbering to distinguish between letting sleeping dogs lie and taking our articles and going home) I would consider #2 the nuclear option, since it would involve tagging or revising WP:GA itself, but that's a quibble. If we go with #4, we should contact other Wikiprojects (we might do so anyway); I doubt  contempt for  illiterate and ignorant reviewers is limited to us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * GA is a project-wide status, not a maths status. We have "Bplus", which recognizes articles of better quality than "B", but did not have to jump through the GA hoops. Similarly, perhaps we can have our internal "A" be the content equivalent of an FA without that process. Personally, I'd rather work with the rest of the project, and perhaps start making more obvious to non-regulars that our Bplus is the equivalent quality to a GA, even if we don't have all the citations in-line, etc. -- Avi (talk) 18:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * GA is a project-wide failure, which was intended to supplant FA's project-wide failure. The actual equivalent to GA is C-Class, under conditions: that the article have lots of useless footnotes, several pretty pictures, and comply with rules of English grammar made up in school one day. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Be that as it may, I think that we should focus on our internal Stub-->Start-->C-->B-->Bplus-->A system, and if an editor wants to jump through GA/FA hoops too, so be it, but the internal "maths rating" value should be paramount. -- Avi (talk) 19:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a question and a "suggestion". To what extent has the Math project's concerns with GA been brought to the attention of the "GA people"? Without having to really answer this, my suggestion would be the same as Avi's above: use an internal evaluation procedure (A-class for example) as our main goal for articles. Then, if someone outside the project (or someone inside the project) wants to take any specific article to GA or FA they can, but we need not consider that a goal for any math article. After a discussion within this project, it could be determined that the official position of the project would be that the ultimate goal of improving a math article would be to attain the, say, A-class appellation; FA and GA would become the wikipedia project at large's business. In my opinion, this would be the practical thing to do. It would involve beginning a discussion under a new header, since this has gone a far ways from the GA issues of the article on mathematics. Thoughts? RobHar (talk) 19:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * GMTA :) -- Avi (talk) 19:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, quite seriously. What we need is a GMA template, which will replace our B-plus class and GA for math articles. Then we tweak User:VeblenBot/MainTable to include it and we're done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If "GA people" want more citations and "math people" find excessive citations visually distracting, wouldn't an ideal solution be a less distracting variant of citations? For example, perhaps we could simply have "irrelevant" citations in comments so that those who really want to know where each piece of information comes from could find the information by reading the source code? — Miym (talk) 20:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In a similar vein, I wonder if it would be possible to have a "hide/show extra citations" for some of the citations. I certainly like having citations for statements, but I also find excessive citations to be visually jarring. RobHar (talk) 20:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I would say that if we ignore GA, this is more a problem for GA than for us. The tension around the citation issue is certainly to do mostly with a stylistic preference, but the preference is for writing surveys of mathematical topics in a style that is not neurotic about details. That is what is needed: that is what (in fact) the mathematical literature is short of. The narrower the topic, the greater density of required citation (certain facts, at the limit, are only written down in one place). This actually fits the GA/FA worldview of trying to optimise an article, which frankly for a topic like topology is just ridiculous (no way can one write that article in such a way as to get close to a comprehensive treatment). Anyway, the schism is going to be made worse if inappropriate reviews of broad mathematics articles are carried out by applying myopic templates to the situation, not better. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem for broad articles is surely mitigated by guidelines at Scientific citation guidelines and Summary style. Leaving aside the human implementation (or not) of such guidelines at GA or FA, would you say they are adequate to resolve the issue in principle? Melchoir (talk) 00:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be sufficient, if GA people read them, or indeed read WP:V on the purpose of citation. But they don't; they count footnotes. If this were an isolated case, I would simply renominate; but the same nonsense happened at Talk:Special relativity/GA1, and is now being discussed at GAR in great confusion, here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, when the human implementation of the review function is isomorphic to a bot run, as in this case, there is certainly a problem, and the problem relates to the reputation of GAR. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Taken to Review, here: I've cited this section, but comments are welcome. If anybody supports King's notions, do say so; and do defend them from guideline and policy if possible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It seemed polite to let the GA project know about this discussion, so I have placed a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's okay - the GAR will have done that. Geometry guy 09:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh my, what a lot of fuss over one crap review. Two line reassessments are totally against the spirit and practice of the GA process, but bad stuff happens. Instead of dealing with it like adults we have a furore that pits the "math people" against the "GA people" and demands a take over or withdrawal of maths from GA. The argument is soooo 2007. Such tribalism fails to take into account that Wikipedia is a bunch of individuals. Some mathematical editors find GA very helpful, others do not: each to their own. The GA process has good reviewers and reviews and ones which are not so good. It deals with the lack of uniformity by making it relatively easy to list or delist, and providing a reassessment process in the event of disagreement. It is akin to simulated annealing, and right now the temperature is a touch too high.

Community reassessment is needed to reach a consensus and hopefully improve the article in the process. I encourage editors to engage with the article and with Good article reassessment/Mathematics/1. In particular, something needs to be done with Mathematics: cutting it entirely is one option; leaving unsourced opinion isn't. Geometry guy 09:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think this discussion is just about one single review or the status of one article (although that was the trigger). I think it is about the applicability of GA status and the GA process to Wikipedia mathematics articles as a whole. Looking at the lists at Good articles, I notice that there are just 24 GAs for mathematics and mathematicians - whereas there are 141 GAs for warships, 159 GAs for Atlantic tropical cyclones, 222 GAs for video games and 220 GAs for "animated television episodes" ! So there are at least two wider questions here: (a) why are there so few mathematics GAs and (b) is this important ? Gandalf61 (talk) 11:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Stating the obvious: there are few GAs and FAs because few people who edit mathematics articles are interested in the GA and FA processes. There are a few who are interested in getting articles they care about into the GA and FA lists, and more power to them. I don't think it's particularly important if there are not many; GA and FA are optional processes, not requirements, and certainly not the unique "goal" that all editors have to work towards. I could go on at length about why I personally avoid these processes, but the summary is that I don't feel their benefit justifies the effort involved. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 12:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * GeometryGuy, I, for at least one, am simply suggesting it might be useful for the math project to devise a set of criteria that it considers any "good" math article should satisfy. Instead of dismissing this whole thread as a big fuss and furor (of which, I believe, only one particularly annoyed editor has engaged in), I think it would be more important to address what has come to light. I too don't believe this is about one "crap review". It appears as though one editor's mention of unhappiness with a review has lead several other editors to express their general dissatisfaction with the GA process. As you mention "Some mathematical editors find GA very helpful, others do not"; I believe this discussion may be about the ones who don't find it helpful trying to determine if there's something they can do about it, possibly without having to take on the current GA process (though one editor started off with that possibility, maybe out of fury). Do you think that, were the math wikiproject to devise its own set of criteria, or rather revive a currently existing instituation (WPM/ACR), this would negatively affect the general wikipedia project? As someone who participates in both the math wikiproject and the GA project, your opinion on such subjects would be valuable. Cheers. RobHar (talk) 15:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Certainly I mean only to dismiss furore, not useful comments that are triggered by it. In that respect, it would certainly be very valuable to revive mathematics A-Class review, and there is a suggestion for a lightweight process on Carl's talk page which looks good to me. GA is not intended to handle completeness of coverage, and it simply can't do it in specialist areas. However, anyone interested in nominating a math article for GA is welcome to ping one of the more scientifically literate GA reviewers to review or contribute to the review. Geometry guy 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I would make less fuss if the last three GA reviews (I include one at Talk:Sophocles/GA1, from outside this project) I'd run into hadn't all been crap - and the same sort of crap. I would appreciate examples of conscientious reviews. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Talk:Guitar Hero World Tour/GA1, Talk:Reptile (Mortal Kombat)/GA1, Talk:Nemesis (Resident Evil)/GA1, Talk:High-level radioactive waste management/GA1, Talk:Minority Report (film)/GA1, Talk:Call of Duty: World at War/GA2, Talk:Mac OS X/GA2, Talk:Therion (band)/GA1, Talk:The Hardest Part (Coldplay song)/GA1, Talk:Burundi/GA2, Talk:Otto Julius Zobel/GA1 Gary King  ( talk ) 19:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I cannot agree that all of the points of grammar are well taken; MoS is not a reliable source. But I am glad to see that Gary King can provide more respectable reviews on articles on subjects he knows something about, like Call of Duty. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So basically you're going to continue to be like this for a while? Gary King  ( talk ) 19:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I am glad to see it; it means, for example, that I will not request, if this continues, that Gary King be barred from doing reviews, since he can do useful ones when he tries. When Mathematics is relisted, and we have assurances that there will be no recurrences of mechanical, two-sentence, reviews (negatively; Ohana is right that "looks like a GA to me" is sometimes all that can be said), then I will stop. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind seeing one line of review if it's a pass, but the situation is that it was on hold with 2 sentences provided. If the reviewer doesn't have the time to identify the specific for improvement, then don't do it. It is causing more drama than it is worth. User:Gary King should not be playing a game and passes the ball off to community GAR when he couldn't find more words to defend his poor review. What I propose is to amend the GA criteria by adding WP:SCG to 1(b). It will not affect projects outside of Mathematics, Physics, Molecular and cellular biology and Chemistry while adequately addresses any present and potential concerns raised in future WP:GAN and WP:GAR where the articles fall within the scope those projects mentioned. OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how that can hurt, and it may solve the problem. Please do so; I see there is a related proposal at WT:WIAGA which would clarify what policy says: that citations are only required in limited circumstances. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅. Proposed a quick fix on 1(b) at Wikipedia talk:Good article criteria, which would solve this and future problems with references and related policies/guidelines. OhanaUnitedTalk page 20:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * See also the related discussion at WT:GAR. Geometry guy 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Speaking as a possibly ignorant scientist, my impression is that most of the Good Articles in mathematics and mathematical physics are indeed pretty good, which suggests that the process is working. The level of referencing doesn't bother me and (I conjecture) most readers.  Far more than reference density, the biggest problem I see for GA- and A-level mathematical articles is that they are poorly written for lay-people.  If reaching such readers is part of the assessment, then articles such as golden ratio and Pythagorean theorem would probably be better ranked as C-class.


 * It is interesting that so few mathematical articles have reached GA-, A-, or FA-level. If we discount biographies, there seem to be roughly 8 mathematical FAs after 8 years of work, several of them on very restricted topics.  As one poster noted above, that's probably because most contributors don't judge the rewards to be worth the effort.  But perhaps we could organize things to change that?  Either lower the effort or increase the rewards?  For example, could we organize teams of contributors with complementary skills or interests?  Could we reach out to organizations interested in math education and developing future mathematicians?  Could we identify the rate-determining steps of an FA and make those more efficient, perhaps with scripts?


 * Incidentally, although some have surely noted this already, a TFA for the Riemann hypothesis on its 150th anniversary might draw welcome attention to the math itself and to the article's gifted contributors... Proteins (talk) 20:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to point out that back in May, I requested that members of this project help with reviewing the mathematics articles. Editors here are more knowledgeable on topics about the guidelines and material related to the article's content. Reviewing can be difficult for reviewers who are not familiar with the topic (the reviewer may not know what is common place, what is lacking, what is incorrect, etc.). Although it can be beneficial to get outsider's reviews since they notice things that editors familiar with the topic don't (even more importantly, what readers might see), members of the project would probably be best for ensuring the article's quality meets the project's guidelines and GA criteria. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 20:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a fair point. And reviewers need nominations to work on. There was only one open GA nomination in the mathematics section (Aces and eights (blackjack)), so I have just added a few more:
 * Complete icosahedron
 * Jeep problem
 * Mathematics and art
 * Penrose tiling
 * Proof without words
 * I have picked articles that I think are a good match to GA criteria - articles that are well written and accessible, use in-line citations, are stable, untagged, and have illustrations. I don't think any of these articles have been nominated for GA before. Reviewers - over to you ! Gandalf61 (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

While we're on the topic, Maximum spacing estimation has been brought to GA, and is currently undergoing an A-class discussion, possibly in preparation for a FAC. -- Avi (talk) 14:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Questions
How do I join this WikiProject? 116.14.72.74 (talk) 12:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You should start by registering a username . Then simply begin editing math articles. You can put your username at WikiProject Mathematics/Participants if you like, but that is purely optional. Read WikiProject Mathematics for more information about the mathematics wikiproject. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 12:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Internal categories
Besides the fact that we don't have an article on a topic that is included in MacLane's book and in Borceaux's 1st volume, does anyone here happen to know who gave the modern definition of internal categories? There's been some discussion/confusion at cat theory timeline page.

There's a high-level description of the Ehresmann-Schein-Nambooripad theorem in the inverse semigroup article, but a prerequisite for writing that in more detail is defining an inductive groupoid, which is an ordered groupoid, which is an ordered category, which in turn is an internal category. I'm guessing the first three of these concepts aren't used often enough outside semigroup theory to justify separate articles, although according to Ehresmann's wife ordered categories appeared in some 700 papers (see link in the discussion above). Pcap ping  18:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's a link to the correct (singular) Wikipedia article title: internal category. Michael Hardy (talk) 18:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's better than no help at all... Pcap ping  18:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Residuated mapping and Galois connection
Since the (more "modern") notion of a monotone Galois connection and (unary) residuated mapping essentially coincide, I was wondering what's the best way to deal with these two topics. I was the one that started residuated mapping a year or so ago; the latter notion suffers from much fewer vagaries in terminology and notation.

A possible approach would be to delete most of the "properties" stuff from Galois connection, which appear written in a rather rambling manner (and using non-standard notations), but keep the rest, essentially the examples, some of which naturally appear as antitone Galois connections, and also keep how the Galois connections relate with other notions from math, while the "low level" stuff could be expanded in residuated mapping, where it also benefits from a more standard notation.

One could also redirect residuated mapping to Galois connection, but then one would need to explain yet another set of synonyms for lower/upper adjoint. More troubling though, a binary operator is defined to be residuated in a manner that gives rise to left and right division, but that's not the same as the mapping (considered as a unary map being residuated). This and other notions of residuation, e.g. quasi-residuals in a semigroup, feel off-topic for someone wanting to read just what a Galois connection is.

Some suggestions how to organize/divide this material would be appreciated. Pcap ping  01:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks like residuated mapping,  Galois connection to me. Maybe the scope of Galois connection does not completely include that of residuated mapping, but I suspect these concepts should be studied and written up together. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your suggestion. The core material of these two articles does indeed need to be explained in only one place; and there are indeed presentations that go that way without becoming confusing, e.g. On the other hand, the generalizations diverge due to their focus. When one focuses on the notion of residuation as property of a function, the component-wise residuation leads to residuated algebraic structures. When the focus is on the connection between posets, the two generalizations that I'm aware of (see link above) are H. Crapo's connections, in which the two posets are connected by order preserving functions that are only quasi-inverses of each other (Crappy connections?!), and Lagois connections (yeah, they really call them that), where both idempotents can be closure operators. Of course some properties get lost in both of these approaches. But there doesn't seem to be that much diverging material, so it can be explained in a single section of the merged article. I'm going to tag the articles as you suggested, and I will merge  them too unless someone objects on some other grounds. Pcap  ping  12:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Monus, an ordered-monoid operation
The article Monus is unsourced and gives what I think is an incorrect description of a subject in ordered monoids. I know almost nothing about this subject, so I would appreciate a look from expert eyes. In summary the article defines the monus of elements a, b as max(a&minus;b, 0), which seems problematic because we don't know there is a subtraction operation in the monoid. I only found one discussion of monus online (here); the definition there is more plausible, namely as the smallest c such that a ≤ b + c. Thanks for any attention to this article. --Uncia (talk) 13:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks like a clear case of someone having misunderstood the definition. (The fact that the article assumed that in a partial order always a ≤ b or b ≤ a clearly supports this.) I have fixed it and added a trivial example. Hans Adler 14:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The confusion comes from the less general monous over N encountered in computability and comp. sci.; the def with "max" is correct over N (the - and "max" are obviously over Z in that case). Perhaps it should be given as example? Never mind, I see it is given. Pcap ping  14:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Mathworld neologism at Heegner number?
Dear all, it appears that the term Heegner number was most likely made up by mathworld. I've started a section on the talk page to discuss whether or not this is so. If it is, I believe the correct course of action is to delete and merge content into other articles. Opinions welcome. RobHar (talk) 00:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * IMO, determining that a name is nonnotable is not in itself a reason to refactor the article. What content belongs together in a single article should be determined by the content we have:  choosing a name for the article should be a secondary concern.  (If you had determined that most of the current content of Heegner number was nonnotable and should be deleted, that would be a different issue.)  —Blotwell 18:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I felt that the content of the article would be better merged into other articles anyway. As it stands this article contains a definition and two marvelous, surprising, disjoint results in number theory, one of which had its own article (that User:PMAnderson has now merged into Heegner number, despite the term Ramanujan's constant being more prevalent than Heegner number) and the other was described in an article on similar results. There is also a List of number fields with class number one. Anyway, I would've settled for a renaming of the article. RobHar (talk) 15:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Lambda calculus
(Cross-posting from Comp. Sci. wikiproject since activity is rather low there) Can someone with (at least) a graduate-level understanding of the topic take a look at the article, in particular the confusion with various typed lambda calculi; see the article's talk page for details. Pcap ping  17:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oops, the lead is written in an opaque and highly questionable fashion. The issue of consistency is possibly relevant to the foundational ambitions Church had; but it is not so relevant to introducing lambda calculus. This all looks wrong-end-of-the-microscope to me, as if the paradigm was Russell's theory of types, rather than functional programming. (That, historically, would make sense, but the weight of current attention would surely be in FP.) Since untyped lambda calculus is basically the situation with one type X that coincides with X &rarr; X, it is feasible to treat it in the foundational article as the case one should look at, so that the labelling with types is treated as at best a distraction. Anyway the historical introduction and air of paradox should be moved out of the lead, and the idea that "lambda calculus" is at minimum a notation for keeping track of higher-order functions should be given fair play. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Manual of style disagreement
On Talk:Exponential_function an editor has replied to my objections citing the maths manual of style with 'I wipe my arse with the Mathematics manual of style!!'. I don't mind arguing about whether some ground rules should or should not apply or what they mean or whether they should be disregarded in particular instances, but this doesn't sound like a basis for constructive discussion. Dmcq (talk) 16:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My sense (which may well be wrong) is that the remark was intended semi-humorously. The other editor does seem genuinely concerned about the state of the article.  I suggest that you assume good faith, point out how easy it is to misinterpret such remarks in online discussions, and suggest that further discussion be carried out in a more restrained mode.  —Dominus (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The editor has stated, "The single best way of introducing the exponential function is by its Taylor series." In any case, this kind of singular view (POV) is not appropriate for writing on Wikipedia in general, and math articles too should try and comply with WP:NPOV as reasonably as possible.  --C S (talk) 23:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Words genuinely fail me. Having an opinion on the best way to write an article now constitutes a point of view, in contravention of some Wiki-law or other? Is this the way mathematics articles are going to be written around here? Will every entity from a triangle to tensor have to be introduced with a historical overview and given multiple equivalent definitions for completeness?


 * In my own opinion, which is now a point of view, people do not come to mathematics articles on Wikipedia for chit-chat. They come here to find out what mathematical objects are. In short they come here for definitions and properties. My views is you tell them, in order 1) What it is, 2) What it does, 3) What it's used for. If you try and mix up this order you will be helping no one; only confusing them.


 * With regard to the exponential function and Taylor series, it would appear my point of view is not an isolated one(Encyclopedia Britannica presumably qualifying as a prominent adherent), so perhaps we should all form a WP:Cabal of some description to better discuss this alternative world view of e^x and how it can be given due weight and properly included so as best to preserve the neutrality, impartiality and unbiased nature of the Exponential Function article. ObsessiveMathsFreak (talk) 15:20, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There are two different cases of your opinion being dealt with apparently. The first concerns your opinion on how to organize the content in the article. This is certainly something that should be discussed and debated. A consensus will be reached and that will be how the article is written. There are several math articles that are structured as you'd like them to be, however each article is dealt with individually. If you'd like to make sure that consensus is against you on this article, you could attempt to attract more editors to the discussion. In the end, you do have to accept the consensus opinion (and, as a note, consensus is not simply a democratic majority).


 * Secondly, your opinion on how to define the exponential function is an issue. You seem to chide "completeness" in an encyclopedia article, but completeness is exactly the point. To strongly state that there is just one good way to do it means that you are pushing a point of view. Now obviously there are more common ways of defining things, and these should generally be given more weight in the article. As I recall certainly many basic analysis books define the exponential function as a power series. Demonstrating this is a good way to support your point of view. People don't want you pushing your point of view. Stating that there is only one good way to define exp is a point of view. I for one prefer defining it as the solution to a first-order differential equation with initial condition. This is simple and embodies the meaning of exponential growth, and the power series then comes immediately out of Picard iteration. But I'm an algebraist and this is my point of view on how definitions should be given: simple and meaningful. RobHar (talk) 16:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * So, Wikipedia is not a textbook, yet we must include enough definitions for a Treatise. This article must be complete to the point of confusing the reader, yet Trivia sections and Pokemon articles must be excised at all costs. Nigh every other mathematics article has a formal definition for its first section, yet I must obtain a consensus for the Exponential Function article, which I note is unsurprisingly one of the top 500 viewed mathematics articles, is of top priority and currently has a less than stellar B rating(who ever gives out those).


 * I'll repeat my assertion that people do not come to the mathematics articles for chit chat, historical perspectives, unexpected interconnections, or strict rigour; at least not initially. The cast majority come here for basic information, so that is what should come first on the page, albeit after a brief introduction. Unfortunately, since such opinions, now being "Points of view", put myself and anyone holding them in the same category as creationists, moon landing conspiracy theorists, and Holocaust deniers, I very much doubt they will be taken seriously by any of the gatekeepers around here.ObsessiveMathsFreak (talk) 17:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * {<<<<< Indenting back}. It is another point of view that people do not come here for chit chat or historical perspective, it may be true but the essential point is that wikipedia is a hyperlinked encyclopaedia so you can always jump to the mathematical definition if you want to go in at the deep end. If you want it easy you just read straight on. If you feel you would move the consensus then the Manual of style page is the one to work on. If you don't then you don't have a consensus and you are just engaged in a fight to push your own point of view. It is perfectly okay to go against the manual of style but you'll need to justify yourself. And you haven't made a good case that I can see. As to starting exponential function with either a series or a differential equation, if you know anything about those you probably already know quite a bit about the exponential function. It is putting the cart before the horse to require them right at the start. And the series definition is particularly unilluminating to someone without much maths, it is just a random sequence of terms. The exponential function is a very basic function that people with very little mathematics come across. That is why it is one of the most popular mathematics articles. Dmcq (talk) 19:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems no matter what I do or suggest I'll end up breaking sacred neutrality. All while others (neutrally!) go about happily making and undoing edits left and right. Is the act of making an edit in itself a biased act? Do we not exclude alternative opinions and pass skewed judgements when we reformat paragraphs, correct spelling mistakes and excise material?


 * Apparently, suggesting people come here for basic information is a point of view. Naturally, suggesting otherwise is of course not. Hence, editing articles to place emphasis on basic definitions and properties is obviously culturally, socially or morally biased in some way; whereas providing inquisitive readers with a panoramic vista of connections, applications and history of a function they know little or nothing about, complete with hyper-links to more topics they didn't come to read about is accordingly the more inclusive option. The former merely provides information plainly and concisely. The latter allows the reader to experience the wonders and potential of web 2.0 enabled, worldwide community sourced knowledge through digital collaboration. Oh, and unicorns.


 * Now, since the Null hypothesis (by consensus!) is clearly that people come to Wikipedia for a magical wonder-trip of learning, my alternate opinion... sorry point of view, that people are simply looking for basic information is something that must be proven.. sorry, which a consensus must be reached on. Obviously the way to do that... sorry to make a good case, would be to conduct surveys, questionnaires or various other analysis. Luckily however, no-one around here bothers with anything like that, and so we can turn to existing consensus for the final answer; which is that I'm a terribly biased, uncooperative old grouch, too mired in my outdated opinions on mathematical exposition to see WP:SENSE.


 * Take for example the specific case of the exponential function. I've been stuck so long in my equations that I can't see the intrinsic superiority in presenting a mathematically lay person with the definition
 * $$\,\exp(x) = \lim_{n\to\infty}\left(1+\frac{x}{n}\right)^{n}.$$
 * which despite Bernoulli's great difficulties can clearly be seen to converge for any x by anyone first presented with it. Any proofs which might be needed are of course trivial. Moreover it speaks to their intimate understanding of the principles of compound interest, which even starving street urchins know as well as they would their own mother's lullabies. Just look at the confidence with which people in our modern world borrow credit!


 * Instead I would subject the unhappy reader to an infinite sequence of essentially random symbols, namely
 * $$e^x = 1 + x + {x^2 \over 2!} + {x^3 \over 3!} + {x^4 \over 4!} + \cdots = \sum_{n = 0}^{\infty} {x^n \over n!} $$
 * which they could have no hope of ever understanding, seeing as how such esoteric mysteries as infinite series and the ratio test are reserved only for a select elite; namely 14 year old schoolboys(girls/persons/aspiring learners). Moreover, my subsequent appeal to the ease with which the function is shown to be its own derivative would only compound the folly, as defining the function as an eigen-function of differentiation makes this step confusingly redundant and is after all the more illuminating introduction the the whole topic.


 * So what is it that makes me persist in my disgraceful bias, my shameful lack of neutrality? What is it that drives me to try and improve articles with elitist notions of coherent mathematical exposition? Malice, perhaps? Or hate? Bile? No doubt my nightly sojourns with neo-Nazi's and crackpot Pseudoscientists have driven all the consensus out of me and left me a wretched point-of-view filled troglodyte.


 * So, it is good that one of the most popular mathematics articles on this site, nay on the web, is do diligently defended from the vile vandalisms which I might unleash upon it. A solid defence of rules, regulations, guidelines, customs and procedures, each more unbiased in intent than the last, stand squarely in the path of unhelpful interlopers like myself who know little and less of how an online repository of human knowladge should be properly run. Why, leave the page to my tender mercies, and people might log on, get the information they came from, and then leave! We can't have that! ObsessiveMathsFreak (talk) 22:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You are not making allies. Ozob (talk) 00:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I said illiterate peasants rather than street urchins and there was a couple of other small changes but yes I agreee with most of the stuff the sarcasm is about. I even read your reference We can't have that! and have come to exactly the opposite conclusion about what the problem was. The article that person looked up contained terms he did not understand before he came to a decent definition of what he was looking up. It may have been that it wasn't really possible to satisfy his requirement, I don't know as I don't know what the original query was, but for the exponential function I really do fail to see how a series which is essentially arbitrary as far as someone not in the know is concerned is better than compound interest. That it is easier for a mathematician to work with is not very relevant that I can see. A quick mathematical definition is given in the leader and the mathematical definition part gives things which are easier for a mathematician. The other articles which are more of the straight into the maths style are probably not ones that people with only very elementary maths will come across. 10:55, 8 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmcq (talk • contribs)


 * Everyone here supports the idea of coherent mathematical exposition. But inherent in the idea of "exposition" is that the reader will read the article, not merely skim it looking for a bulleted definitions.


 * Also, concerning the exponential function, there are numerous definitions, and we need to present them all. But unlike a textbook, there is no reason why our introductory articles need to pick one particular definition as the definition, above the others. There are at least three independent definitions of the exponential function, and each has its own role. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 12:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "reader will read the article, not merely skim it looking for a bulleted definitions"
 * Generally speaking, I don't think that is a valid assumption. Nor is it reasonable — as possibly mentioned in a previous discussion about infoboxes, there is no reason why articles should intentionally be made harder to use for readers just looking for something specific (that is why we divide articles into sections after all) and require everyone to read the whole article no matter what their level of understanding. Shreevatsa (talk) 15:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Deleting Pie method
I've put a prod on Pie method which is a putative method of fair division because I believe it is simply wrong. I actually found a place on the internet though where somebody quoted it though not as the 'pie method' and it probably didn't come from wikipedia! I sort of wonder if it is notably wrong and I should keep it and say it is rubbish? Perhaps I should put it under Proportional (fair division) as an attempt which is wrong and explain - but then the explanation could be counted as WP:OR. Dmcq (talk) 23:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's just Divide and choose, isn't it (with a completely wrong extension to >2 people)? Algebraist 14:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a shame that divide and choose does not give any discussion to the problem of fair division between more than two parties. I gather that this has been the subject of considerable research over the years.  —Dominus (talk) 15:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Why should it discuss that? Divide and choose is about the divide-and-choose algorithm, which applies only to two-party division. The general problem of fair division is covered at fair division, as it should be. Algebraist 15:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I see, thanks. —Dominus (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the last divider method in Proportional (fair division) is probably what the person who wrote the article meant butnthey left out an important part. Dmcq (talk) 16:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

MAJOR CHANGES: 4 hours ago
By a very simple verified equation we wiped out Prime numbers and Riemanns Hypothesis articles that are rendered obsolete and Wikipedia is the first place we went because you treated us with freedom and respect. The simple equation that is verifiable at face value was posted at the Math forums etc 4 hrs ago"IS 180-PRIME NUMBER(below180)= 180+PRIME NUMBER(any over 180) Till infinity ,So there is no need to be digging for these prime numbers now any more. See also the site Inverse19mathematics.com, or google inverse19 mathematics. THIS IS SIMPLE VERIFIABLE AS IT IS(ipso facto ). GO WIKPEDIA BE THE FIRST. Vinoo Cameron M.D, Theo Denotter.--Vinoo Cameron (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)--Vinoo Cameron (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This needs peer-review and publication by a reliable source before it is acceptable here as we cannot accept original research. Please propose this again when this has happened. Rodhull  andemu  13:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not think I quite understood that which was asserted, but if my interpretation is correct it seems either trivial or incorrect. Furthermore, I do not think that such a trivial equation can resolve the theory of prime numbers or the Riemann hypothesis completely (or to even a small extent). -- PS T  09:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the title be MAJOR CHANGES: 2 days and 5 hours ago? Dmcq (talk) 08:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Review of Proof without words
Edge3 has started a GA review of Proof without words. Their main concern so far is that the article does not give sufficient coverage of its topic. Review status is "On hold: this article is awaiting improvements before it is passed or failed". If anyone has the time and inclination to expand the article, please do so. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Composition of functions
This is perhaps a trivial topic but I feel that some discussion is necessary. In calculus, functions are often composed from right to left and this is therefore the convention with which most people are familiar. However, group theorists prefer to compose from left to right, and in general, many influential algebraists have selected this convention. Consequences of this convention include the consideration of only right modules (rather than left modules) and specific cases of this (for instance, right ideals rather than left ideals). However, in Wikipedia, for the most part, only left ideals, left modules and related concepts associated to "left" rather than "right" are considered. In my opinion, this is an inconsistency, and at can at times lead to incorrect assertions (in the context of rings, only, since a ring need not be isomorphic to its opposite ring). Should something be done about this? -- PS T  14:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that the "opposite" composition descends from Philip Hall; it is true that it is used by group theorists, mainly in that tradition. I think if you broaden to "influential algebraists", it is very much a minority point of view, which is why it isn't much represented here. Obviously we do have bimodule as an example against your thesis that the point is neglected. In computer science there is a convention of writing f;g for gof as the "opposite" notation for composition. I don't see much virtue in carrying around extra verbiage about composition across mathematics generally; Wikipedia does what almost all mathematicians do in this area. Category-style Rop notation can say enough where necessary, I think, where close attention is required. Please flag up any actually incorrect statements so we can deal with those. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't this discussed under Composition of functions? In computer science, the (fg)(x) = g(f(x)) is preferred to the point that they made an ISO standard for it (the Z notation), which introduced the "fatsemi" symbol as the dual of the circle. Pcap ping  17:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. As you can see below the LaTeX  does not work on Wikipedia because it doesn't include the right package. If you read the Composition of functions article on Linux, or on anything else with decent Unicode fonts (Mac?), the Unicode fatsemi appears correctly; but not on Windows XP. Pcap  ping  17:21, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

$$\fatsemi$$
 * P.P.S: I see that I had added some of these details to the article on Composition of relations last year, but completely forgot about it... Pcap ping  17:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also looking at something I added to that article, you could use $$\circ_l$$ and $$\circ_r$$, as done in Kilp et al., if you really need both notions, and need to distinguish between them in an article. Pcap ping  17:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Equality (mathematics)
Can someone review that article and remove, or at least frame properly, the ramblings that permeate it? I've done a little work on it, but I have the rewriting fish to fry, for which there are way fewer knowledgeable Wikipedians around (as far as I can tell given how bad the article was). Pcap ping  17:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

P closures
I've added a section to the article on Closure (mathematics) article describing a related notion. The name used by Baader and Nipkow is somewhat non-descriptive. Has anyone encountered it under some other name? Also, is that article the best place to discuss it? Pcap ping  18:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, can these be somehow defined as closure operators? Pcap ping  19:17, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * According to your definition, the P-closure of a binary relation R on S is a subset A of S. An obvious "P-closure operator" maps R to A×A.
 * But I think the definition makes no sense because it only depends on P union all first or second elements in pairs from R. Shouldn't it be "the least set with property P that is closed under R"? Then the P-closure operator would map R to the smallest symmetric and transitive relation that extends both R and P2. Hans Adler 20:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, the P-closure (say Q) of R is a subset of S×S, just like R. The P here is a predicate; e.g. for the symmetric closure the predicate Psym is "forall x,y in S: (x,y) in Q implies (y,x) in Q". I guess you could see the P-closure as an operator on S×S parametrized by some predicate P. Pcap ping  20:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. P is actually a property of subsets of S×S? I didn't read this literally. Seems quite a technical notion to me then. Hans Adler 20:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, Nipkow's specialty is higher-order logic (one of his celebrated results is extending Knuth-Bendix to higher order logic, and he's the guy behind Isabelle/HOL). But the "Term Rewriting and All That" book is written for undergrads, so I guess he didn't want to complicate "P closures" with a formal definition, which appears to require higher-order logic because the predicate P appears as an argument. Pcap ping  21:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I am sure these can be defined as closure operators provided the property in question is nice, for example monotone. But the property P(Q) = "Q is empty" is not going to appear as any sort of closure operation. This all seems to be a special case of the fixed-point theorems (e.g. Kleene fixpoint theorem). &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think "nice" (as you put it) is "closed under arbitrary intersections" (as Baader and Nipkow put it). Pcap ping  09:29, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right that it is also enough for P to be satisfied by the full relation on S &times; S, and for P to be closed under intersections. But the intersection of any number of empty relations is empty, so some variation of the first condition would also be required. I said nice because there are several fixed-point theorems with slightly different hypotheses. For example, one can assume the map is expansive instead of monotone, and neither of these properties is implied by the other. Also, to use the fixed point theorems one has to convert P into a map, which is easy to do in the examples given (symmetric relations, transitive relations, etc) but nonobvious in general. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 11:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

By the way
Did anyone see how terrible our article on predicate (mathematical logic) is? Pcap ping  20:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. Hans Adler 20:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The real issue with the title of that page is that predicates are trivial from the point of view of mathematical logic, because all the interesting questions have been collapsed by the use of set theory. There is a lot to say about predicates from the point of view of philosophy, but that isn't mathematical logic. We can discuss what to do with that article on its talk page in any case. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't there non-trivial things one can say about predicates in contexts where set theory is not assumed as a foundation? E.g., in categorical logic, each topos has an internal language in which one ought to be able to formulate predicates. Also, isn't there some notion (again in categorical logic) called a "theory"? (Or maybe I'm thinking of a "sketch"?) Which, if I have the right intuition, would have a notion of a predicate. I remember skimming Borceaux's Handbook and seeing these sorts of things. (Much more so than I saw geometric things! Unfortunately, as far as I know, the only decent book about the geometric aspects of topoi is still SGA4.) Ozob (talk) 13:35, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Equational logic?
Am I just blind, or we don't have an article on this? Equational theory redirects to Universal algebra, which sort of touches on the idea of a model theory, but I don't see the fundamental result that equational logic is sound and complete mentioned there. I was trying to find something to link to from rewriting in order to explain what the motivation is, but no luck... Compare with. Pcap ping  02:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You've probably found a gap in the coverage. http://eom.springer.de/E/e120140.htm may be more useful than the MathWorld page (EoM is a reliable source in just about all areas, I think). Charles Matthews (talk) 16:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Help needed
Could anyone give some feedback on the discussion under Talk:Bijection? It might not be a very deep discussion, but I think it's important nontheless. Some extra views would be more than welcome. Thanks! 145.88.209.33 (talk) 08:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Reorganize the Computability articles
We have these "general" articles:
 * Computability, which incorrectly implies that computability in CS and Math are somehow disjoint. This should not be a dab or a stub!
 * Computability theory (computer science), a poor quality article that focuses narrowly on automata and Turing machines (despite the name). Barely mentions lambda calculus in the history section and makes no mention of recursion theory or random access machine!!
 * Model of computation, a sort of WP:DICTDEF

We also have much better articles on the important topics, recursion theory, lambda calculus, Turing machine, and random access machine; we also have a decent overview article on register machines in general.

The way I see it computability should be is a high-level intro to the often encountered equivalent models of computation: recursion theory, lambda calculus, Turing machine, and random access machine. This is along the along the outline of S. Barry Cooper's Computability Theory (see pp. 7-8), which despite being written by mathematician was quite satisfying for me as a computer scientist (despite the many misprints, and his insistence on calling RAMs URMs, but that's another matter).

(I will cross-post to the CS wikiproject to attract participants from there too, but that project is nearly dead.)

Thoughts? Pcap ping  11:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know why there was originally a split between computability theory (computer science) and recursion theory. However, I know why I have never tried to merge them, which is that it seemed too difficult to write a single article on "computability" that gave the proper focus to both areas.


 * At some point I worked on getting the recursion theory article up to shape. This article does not describe a model of computation; "recursion theory" is a field of mathematical logic concerning computability and definability. The model of computation is described at μ-recursive function. The article recursion theory gives a pretty reasonable overview of that field of logic.


 * It would be possible to merge computability theory (computer science) into the article recursion theory, but I have never been convinced that many computer scientists would be happy with the result. I could work on that next week if there is a desire for it among the computer scientists.


 * We should discuss that at Talk:Recursion theory. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 11:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, discussion continues there. Pcap ping  12:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Compact -> Compact Hausdorff
I would like to propose a change for the convention. Can we assume that a compact space is Hausdorff (and use quasi-compact for a space where an open cover has a finite subcover)? I think today this is fairly standard and helps to reduce clutters.

One problem with this change is what we do with other related notions like locally compact, or compact generated space (i.e., k-space): should we assume them also to be Hausdorff or not. I don't have a concrete idea for this problem. -- Taku (talk) 12:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this fairly standard? I've only ever seen this mentioned as something Bourbaki does; I've never encountered anyone who actually used this convention themselves. Algebraist 13:52, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am looking at the textbook "Topology" by James R. Munkres (second edition, 2000); there, a compact space need not be Hausdorff. The same holds for "Introduction to topological manifolds" by John M. Lee (2000). Boris Tsirelson (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So far as I know, the definition that includes Hausdorff is relatively standard in France and very widespread in Germany, but not at all standard internationally. I think it's best to use only the terms compact Hausdorff and quasicompact in topology contexts, except where the two notions are equivalent. This is analogous to how we are already dealing with $$\subseteq / \subsetneq / \subset$$. It minimises the potential for misunderstandings. And we can still say "Let X be a regular space. If X is compact...". Hans Adler 14:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it may be a matter of the branch of mathematics in question. Certainly within algebraic geometry and number theory the Bourbaki convention is pretty strictly followed. Schemes are almost never Hausdorff, but often quasi-compact, so one often deals with quasi-compact spaces, which, frankly, are not nearly as nice as (Hausdorff) compact spaces. In a branch like topology, one can afford to allow "compact" to apply to non-Hausdorff things since one quickly restricts oneself to studying topological manifolds, which are generally taken to be Hausdorff (as they are in John M Lee's book). I am strongly in favour of the Bourbaki definition. RobHar (talk) 15:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The "usual" definition of compact does not include Hausdorff. This is supported by the "standard" texts, Willard, General Toplogy (1970), Steen & Seebacch, Counterexamples in Topology (1970),  Armstrong, Basic Topology (1997), Bredon, Topology and Geometry (1997), Munkres Topology (1999), etc., as well as references like Schecthter, Handbook of Analysis and Its Foundations (1997) and Hazewinkel, Encyclopaedia of Mathematics (2002). In my experience as a practicing topologist Bourbaki is definitely in the minority. Whatever our personal definitional preferences our, we should follow the standard sources. Paul August &#9742; 16:01, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The "usual" definition in topology does not include Hausdorff, but what I'm saying is that the "usual" definition in algebraic geometry does. Now, one can say that compactness is a topological notion, and that's fine, but despite this, I believe the bourbaki definition to be better. Questions: as a practicing topologist, how often do you study non-Hausdorff spaces? How many of the texts you list only refer to non-Hausdorff compact spaces to discuss their pathology? RobHar (talk) 16:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Rob, I'm not sure what you are getting at. My only position here is that, based upon current usage, Wikipedia in its article compact space ought to continue to define a compact space as it currently does (every open cover has a finite subcover). Do you disagree with this? Paul August &#9742; 16:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I do. I'm not simply arguing for the sake of arguing. My position is that, also based on current usage, Wikipedia should change its definition. My argument is that though topologists often define compact without Hausdorff, they rarely actually use it (beyond basic pathological examples in textbooks), whereas algebraic geometers, who actually use non-Hausdorff compact spaces require the Hausdorff condition, and otherwise use the term quasi-compact. I may be wrong in the statement that topologists rarely use non-Hausdorff topological spaces, and this is why I asked you the above questions. You've shown that the standard definition in (basic) topology texts does not require Hausdorff, but that does not mean that the standard definition in mathematics is so. As an example that a major branch of mathematics does not use the same definition as topology, I point out algebraic geometry. I realize my opinion may (or may not) be a minority one, but I saw fit to express it. RobHar (talk) 16:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My area of research was in categorical topology, so I'm less familiar with the current usage of the term in algebraic geometry, though I would guess that many texts will not in fact give a definition of something so basic. Note however Smith, An invitation to algebraic geometry, p. 9:


 * A compact space is a topological space for which every open cover has a finite subcover. Some authors call those spaces quasicompact reserving the term "compact" for Hausdorff spaces with this property.


 * Notice the word "some". Also that most modern research may be conducted in contexts where all spaces are Hausdorff is really neither here nor there.
 * Paul August &#9742; 17:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I happen to know that Karen Smith says "quasi-compact" just like all of us algebraic geometers do. And when she describes a variety as "compact" she, again like all of us algebraic geometers, means "complete" (i.e., the map to the one-point space is a proper morphism). This is simply a convention. The convention of using "quasi-compact" in algebraic geometry comes from two things, I think:
 * There is a strong French influence coming from Serre and especially Grothendieck.
 * There is more than one natural topology on an algebraic variety. If X is a complex variety, then you can either view it as a scheme (with generic points and the Zariski topology), or you can view it more classically as its set of complex points and their Euclidean topology. Whether or not a variety is compact changes depending upon your viewpoint: All varieties are quasi-compact in the Zariski topology by definition (and in fact, non-quasi-compact schemes are usually so pathological that they are not even considered); but to be compact in the Euclidean topology is to be compact in the traditional sense, and this is a strong assumption, just like compactness of a manifold is a strong assumption.
 * So what should Wikipedia do? I think we all agree that "compact" for "every open cover has a finite subcover" is the most common usage in English, and I, together with the other algebraic geometers here, can attest that "quasi-compact" is an active, but minority, usage. My own opinion is that we should stick with the most common usage of "compact" and mention "quasi-compact" as a notable minority usage. Ozob (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. And this is in fact what our article currently does. However more ought to be added about the "minority" usage, in particular reflecting what Ozob has written above. Paul August &#9742; 18:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I also agree. I work in both differential and algebraic geometry, but am also aware and interested in work in computer science, logic and category theory that uses topological spaces which need not be Hausdorff. Combining the two concepts in one definition is conceptually bad, in that Hausdorff-ness is a local property, whereas compactness is not. However, it is not Wikipedia's mission to change the world (even the mathematical world), only to reflect what we find in reliable sources. Geometry guy 20:13, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * (undent) Hausdorff is not a local property. If it were, non-Hausdorff manifolds would not exist. Plclark (talk) 21:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I am somewhat inclined to the view that:
 * Some spaces are Hausdorff spaces, but no space is Hausdorff, because Hausdorff was a person. In other words, "Hausdorff space" is a compound word, not a phrase in which "Hausdorff" is an adjective.
 * Some compact spaces are not Hausdorff spaces. There's this nice little undergraduate exercise that says:
 * Suppose T is a topology on X and (X, T) is a compact Hausdorff space. Suppose S is some other topology on X.  If S is finer than T, then (X, S) is not compact; if S is coarser than T then (X, S) is not a Hausdorff space.  This makes me wonder if maybe there's some way of looking at it (e.g. something in category theory, maybe) from which "compact" and "Hausdorff" are some sort of duals of each other.

I'd rather keep the terminology as is.

Michael Hardy (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow, I didn't expect this much response :) I agree that the convention depends on fields. But I would point out that you rarely see "compact Hausdorff" because what happens most of the time is that the underlying space is often assumed to be compact to begin with: manifolds, topological vector space/group, etc. So, compact groups or compact manifolds are Hausdorff. (Yes, I noticed I use Hausdorff as an adjective, despite Michael Hardy's objection, but I don't think it is only a minority who commits this misusage. It's similar to "Cauchy"; you say "Since the sequence x_n is Cauchy, it is bounded and ....) The argument for compactness subsuming Hausdorff-ness is therefore simple and natural in that it only tries to reflect the reality. By the way, there is a nice explanation for the duality that Michael Hardy wondered about: in a Hausdorff space an ultrafilter converges to at most one point: in a compact (not necessarily Hausdorff) space an ultrafilter converges to at least one point. Thus, a compact Hausdorff space is where an ultrafilter converges to exactly one point. Conceptually speaking, in other words, it makes no sense that there is no term for compactness plus Hausdorff-ness, as if we have terms "injective" and "surjective" but not "bijective". Since a non-Hausdorff compact space is pathological (without doubt?), "quasi-" is also a very appropriate prefix to use.


 * Of course, if the standard doesn't seem to have adopted this Bourbaki convention, we can't adopt it in Wikipedia either. But really? Yes, some textbooks on topology don't follow Bourbaki, but isn't that simply because they are old? I thought Bourbaki texts are "definitive accounts" on many things, including topology. In fact, many texts refer to Bourbaki for results on topology. -- Taku (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The sources I cited above are not old, here are few more modern texts: Shick, Topology: Point-Set and Geometric (2007); Reid, Geometry and Topology (2005); Crossley, Essential Topology (2009), I'm sure there are many more. Can you provide any topology texts which follow Bourbaki? Paul August &#9742; 01:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know of any topology textbooks that follow bourbaki, but then again I've never read a topology book. I also make no claim that topologists follow Bourbaki, though it's possible some do. From Hans Adler's comments, it seems like a good place to look would be French or German books. I know that EGA, SGA, Hartshorne and Mumford's red book all follow Bourbaki. RobHar (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For some reason, I can't edit Wikipedia with my user account. (What did I wrong??) J.P. May's A concise course in Algebraic Topology follows Bourbaki. It is the only topology book I have ever read (or more precisely trying to read :). Maybe that's why I got a wrong impression. -- Taku —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.28.195 (talk) 02:21, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * A Google books search returns a few more examples, such as: Topology by Horst Schubert, General topology by Ryszard Engelking, Handbook of the history of general topology by Charles E. Aull and Robert Lowen, Lectures on algebraic topology by Albrecht Dold. In Klaus Jänich's book "Topology", he doesn't assume the Hausdorff condition, but he says "Many authors call such spaces 'quasicompact'", whatever "many" means. RobHar (talk) 04:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * To add to the categorical point of view of "duality" between compactness: for schemes, the analogue of Hausdorff is "separated" and the analogue of compact is "proper". The so-called valuative criteria of separatedness and properness offer the same kind of relation that Taku describes above for ultrafilters. There's a nice discussion of the analogy between properness and compactness in 1.9 of Mumford's Red Book (where he's talking about complete varieties) and in Bourbaki's topology book. RobHar (talk) 22:48, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In model theory, we have an invariant of complete first order theories that is called the Lascar group. Its inventor defined that a theory is called G-compact if its Lascar group is a compact Hausdorff group. Since the group is always quasicompact, this amounts to saying that it's Hausdorff. This may make sense in French, but based on observations on several occasions I would say it confuses most model theorists outside France, because they expect compact=quasicompact.

I still maintain that the best thing we can do is to use quasicompact or compact Hausdorff whenever there is a difference, and compact when there is none. Since we are writing for an international audience of people from different subfields of mathematics, this is the only way to make sure that our readers needn't guess what we mean. Even if we could agree on one of the two main conventions for the entire project, there would always be some articles that wouldn't follow the convention, e.g. because they are recent additions by a new author who doesn't know about the convention. And it still leaves the flexibility of defining compact as one of the two variants at the beginning of an article, if it's necessary to prevent awkward language. Hans Adler 23:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's look at some other Wikipedias: Hans Adler 06:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * FR: A topological space E is called quasicompact if it satisfies the Borel-Lebesgue axiom: of every open covering one can extract a finite subcovering. The space is called compact if it is also separated [i.e. Hausdorff].
 * DE: Some authors such as for example Boto von Querenburg [an influential German Bourbaki-style topology text] use the term quasicompact for the property defined here and reserve the term "compact" for compact Hausdorff spaces; due to French influence this is customary especially in algebraic geometry.
 * IT:Some authors require that a compact space be Hausdorff; in this case, a space that satisfies the present condition but is not Hausdorff is called quasicompact.
 * ES:[Defines compact without Hausdorff. The French terminology is not even mentioned.]


 * Very interesting. So, this is really a French convention. Let me add:
 * JA: A topological space X is said to be compact if every open cover of any subset of X has a finite subcover. Bourbaki refers to a compact Hausdorff space by a compact space and use "quasi-compact" for a compact but possibly non-Hausdorff space.
 * (By the way, isn't this definition incorrect?)
 * -- Taku (talk) 12:21, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * (It is. According to this definition, any compact Hausdorff space is discrete, and therefore finite.) — Emil J. 13:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This is the definition of a Noetherian space (aka Heriditarily compact). Since the spectrum of a Noetherian ring is a Noetherian space, what Emil J has pointed is out is why most schemes aren't Hausdorff. RobHar (talk) 13:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm so sorry. I got the translation wrong :) For the record, this is the correct one
 * JA: A subset of a topological space is said to be compact if its open cover has a finite subcover.
 * So, this is slightly more general but is actually equivalent to the usual one (and definitely correct). -- Taku (talk) 21:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Not to pile onto Paul August's list, but Davis (2005, p. 87) also does not include Hausdorff. Unfortunately I can't seem to find my algebraic geometry text at the moment. CRGreathouse (t | c) 07:01, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I very much favour Hans's position above - "use only the terms compact Hausdorff and quasicompact in topology contexts, except where the two notions are equivalent. This is analogous to how we are already dealing with $$\subseteq / \subsetneq / \subset$$." Where authors are inconsistent, the best way to avoid confusion is to rely solely on unambiguous terms, even if that usage isn't consistent with any particular author. Dcoetzee 07:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Could anyone remind me how we're dealing with $$\subseteq / \subsetneq / \subset$$? My understanding is that we're dealing with it by not dealing with it. -- Taku (talk) 12:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's described at WikiProject Mathematics/Conventions:
 * Subset is denoted by $$\subseteq$$, proper subset by $$\subsetneq$$. The symbol $$\subset$$ may be used if the meaning is clear from context, or if it is not important whether it is interpreted as subset or as proper subset (for example, $$A\subset B$$ might be given as the hypothesis of a theorem whose conclusion is obviously true in the case that $$A=B$$). All other uses of the $$\subset$$ symbol should be explicitly explained in the text.
 * By the way, the most creative approach to these symbols that I have seen so far was when a single formula $$a_i\subset a_j$$ that occurred in a definition absolutely had to be interpreted as $$\subseteq$$ for certain values of i,j and had to be interpreted as $$\subsetneq$$ for certain others. Hans Adler 12:43, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, so here it is. Am I the only one to think that these guidelines would be much easier to find if they were integrated in MOS:MATH? — Emil J. 13:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Good idea. Hans Adler 14:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

In Encyclopaedia of Mathematics, "Compact space" has this comment:
 * In the West "compact"  is used for both compact and T_2-compact, and the former is sometimes called quasi-compact. In topology the majority of Western authors equate compact and compact Hausdorff (T_2-compact), because the latter spaces are much better behaved; on the other hand in, e.g., algebraic geometry the term compact does not as a rule include T_2.
 * (The emphases are mime.)

I'm somehow unsure about the accuracy of this. I thought "quasicompact" typically appears in algebraic geometry. -- Taku (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Having read this thread, I feel that some strong statements were made by User:RobHar, but that is simply my opinion. Firstly, "topology" is not exclusively reserved for manifolds; there are people who research point-set topology, set-theoretic topology and other related branches. Furthermore, non-Hausdorff spaces are not simply "pathological examples" in textbooks. There is an interesting theory behind non-Hausdorff spaces; one example is the result that the bug-eyed line does not have the homotopy type of any Hausdorff space (although it is a topological manifold). This, although fairly well-known, serves to illustrate how even "nice" Hausdorff spaces have a complex structure. I do not disagree that major areas of mathematics such as algebraic and differential geometry (and topology) assume all topological spaces to be Hausdorff, but in those branches, topology is a "tool" and not an object of study. By incorporating a Wikipedia convention that "compact" is to mean "compact Hausdorff" suggests not only the non-existence of many "pure topologists", but also the seemingly popular view that non-Hausdorff is pathological (and this is certainly incorrect). It may be that I am biased, by I vehemently oppose to the suggested convention. -- PS T  14:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's an example of a non-Hausdorff topological space which arises naturally but which I think nobody has mentioned: Lp with the strong topology. As we all know, a measurable function R &rarr; R is in Lp if and only if its p-norm is finite; and in particular, all functions that are almost everywhere zero have zero p-norm for every p (even in the goofy cases when 0 < p < 1). Now, a lot of books take the quotient by the subspace of a.e. zero functions, but not all do; e.g., David Williams's Probability with Martingales doesn't, and even makes the claim that taking this quotient is never done when working with continuous-time objects in probability theory (I don't know enough probability to verify the truth of this claim, though).


 * More generally, of course, any seminorm which is not a norm will define a non-Hausdorff topology on a vector space. Ozob (talk) 15:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My statements were made with the explicitly stated caveat that they may be wrong and were accompanied with questions. I realize that topology is not only algebraic and differential topology (subjects in which topology is the object of study), however I am pretty sure that point-set topology, set-theoretic topology, etc form a very small minority of the subject. In other words, in terms of usage of the term, compact most often means compact Hausdorff since the space is assumed Hausdorff to begin with. I also don't see how the "bug-eyed line" is not pathological. I believe that it is true that non-Hausdorff is pathological in most areas of study.
 * Anyway, I find Hans Adler's suggestion to use "quasicompact" and "compact Hausdorff" (mimicking the convention on subsets) to be quite sensible. Especially since in most cases it would be sufficient to simply say "compact" as the object in question will likely already be assumed Hausdorff. This is probably my first choice of convention.
 * However, it is true that different subjects have different conventions, and a possible compromise would be to say that in articles in topology (and someone mentioned some computer science) the term "compact" need not refer to a Hausdorff space, whereas otherwise (or something) it refers to compact Hausdorff. As most subjects other than topology (and algebraic geometry/number theory that use the term quasicompact) only deal with Hausdorff spaces only "compact" will be required. This would thus not represent a significant change to the wording in almost all articles. Thoughts? RobHar (talk) 15:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So, are you asserting that point-set topology and set-theoretic topology are less important than differential geometry and topology? -- PS T  09:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

So much discussion. We have basic conventions to avoid getting sucked into such time-consuming stuff. "Quasi-compact" as used in scheme theory is a standard definition and means what you'd guess, but it is not a definition most mathematicians have to worry about. I think Bourbaki had a rather limited point in making that definition back in the day, and we lose little by ignoring the point in our conventions. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Let me weigh in, as someone who has spent some time re/writing the articles on general topology. I have various comments:

1) Both conventions have a great deal of support. The use of quasi-compact is more widespread in French than it is in English (indeed, the above references seem to show that compact virtually always implies Hausdorff in French), but it is certainly widespread in English as well.  As a rough rule of thumb, "quasicompact" is preferred by the algebraists (including algebraic geometers, algebraic number theorists, model theorists, etc.) whereas "compact" is preferred by the analysts and geometric topologists.  There is enough use of each convention that it seems absolutely mandatory to mention both alternatives as being in common use.

2) In terms of authoritative texts on General Topology, in my opinion (as someone who has spent some time perusing them) the following are the most authoritative, in historical order:

1955 Kelley's General Topology 1958 Bourbaki's Topologie Generale 1970 Willard's General Topology 1975/1977 Engelking's General Topology

I find it strange that nowadays people seem to name Munkres' book as the definitive reference on the subject. It is a very nicely written book (it was used for my first course on topology, and I had an entirely positive experience with it), but it does not have the scope of a reference. From the author's preface: "This book is intended as a text for a one- or two-semester introduction to topology, at the senior or first-year graduate level."

In terms of the authority of the above books, I would rank them in descending order as: Bourbaki, Engelking, Willard, Kelley. Note that the first two of these use the term "quasi-compact".

3) Except for the fact that it is probably not in majority use among English-speaking mathematicians, I have never heard a reasonable argument against Bourbaki's convention. There are many arguments for it, most of all the fact that it clues the student in to the fact that many of the nice properties of compactness in metric spaces hold only when the Hausdorff axiom is assumed.  Moreover, the alternate terminology gets awkward when one is seriously interested in non-Hausdorff spaces.  For instance the term "compactification" is used in every text I have ever seen to mean "Hausdorff compactification", but the fact that this is not built into the terminology can cause confusion.

4) I would myself prefer that wikipedia adopt the quasi-compact convention. This would be a progressive move: choosing terminology that we feel is best even if it is not in the majority use.  I appreciate though that this is a big step for wikipedia to take.  I think that Hans Adler's advice is ultimately best: mention both conventions in the foundational articles, and then in the applications try to phrase things so as to make sense independent of which convention has been chosen.  Plclark (talk) 21:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What a plethora of opinion. Plclark, I gave a perfectly good argument against the Bourbaki convention above, but you didn't read it: Hausdorffness is a local notion, whereas compactness isn't. Conflating the two is logically confusing and unacceptable in most fields. Bourbaki and others were simply seduced by the happy combination that compact and Hausdorff spaces provide (uniqueness of the compact Hausdorff topology etc. etc.) You can pick and choose your references according to your prejudices, but you can't argue against the principle that there is no such thing as a locally Hausdorff space, whereas locally compact spaces are prevalent in mathematics. Geometry guy 23:23, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually he did read your argument, and he commented on it above. He said Hausdorffness is not a local notion. RobHar (talk) 23:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My apologies: we evidently have different conceptions of what "local" means. It is precisely the nonexistence of locally non-Hausdorff spaces which differentiates Hausdorff-ness from compactness. Geometry guy 23:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Geometry guy, I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you familiar with local property and locally Hausdorff space?  I can't tell from what you write.  Certainly there are spaces which are not locally Hausdorff (or even locally non-Hausdorff), for instance the trivial topology on a set with more than one element.  Plclark (talk) 07:08, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * My apologies again. I'm only used to dealing with topological spaces in specific arenas (albeit several unrelated ones that include Hausdorff and non-Hausdorff spaces). The notion of local you describe is entirely the right one, and I use it regularly myself. So I should not have caused confusion by using the word "local" in this context. What I meant was that a witness to non-Hausdorffness only involves two points and arbitrarily small neighbourhoods of these points. In contrast compactness is a feature of the whole space. One can delete a point from a non-Hausdorff space to make it Hausdorff, while one can also delete a point from a compact space to make it noncompact. This seems very different to me, but perhaps you can clarify. Geometry guy 20:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

To respond to Plclark's 3), I'm no expert but I believe that the strongest argument against the inclusion of Hausdorff-ness would be that the category of Hausdorff spaces is not well behaved (I never quite understood what topologists mean by "not-well-behaved"). Hence, it is important to work with -- in algebraic topology in particular -- the category of spaces with some weaker separation axioms such as weak Hausdorff space. (See also ) This is not surprising since Bourbaki introduced their convention before the category theory became mainstream. -- Taku (talk) 11:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It is usual at some point to "appeal to common sense". As far as I can see, typing "compact Hausdorff" is not really so bad if you know you have to do it; and the advantage seems to be that with the two terms "compact" and "compact Hausdorff" in use, the worst that happens is that someone may read a proposition like "if X is a compact space then blah" in too restrictive a sense. Which cannot be said if Hausdorffness is tacitly assumed. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The consensus seems clear by now, but let me indulge a bit more, because I don't understand Charles Matthews' comment at all. Yes, it is true that there is no serious problem that could be solved by adopting a new convention: there is nothing wrong with "compact Hausdorff", especially because like 99% of times spaces are Hausdorff and so this is usually simply non-issue. (Likely, I was bored before a new semester, which started the whole thing :) But, but, why reject the idea of having a discussion on conventions at all? It is important to adopt a correct convention; not just because that helps the reader but because that's the whole point of this project. Isn't it? We strive for the accurate description of (contemporary) mathematics, and the choices of conventions are therefore extremely important because they're reflection of philosophy. It is possible that, as PST pointed out, adopting the Bourbaki convention gives a wrong impression that certain materials in topology are unimportant (because they are?) I don't see why we, as the authors of this encyclopedia, can't have a long discussion then choose conventions that best reflect views that we think correct? Because we can't agree ever or why try? (Excuse me for ranting.) -- Taku (talk) 01:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the discussion seems to show that your initial comment I think today this is fairly standard is simply not correct. Of course conventions can be discussed - there is a talk page for the conventions page. I thought you were misunderstanding a little "quasi-compact" as it used in scheme theory, and its significance. The Bourbaki style is (was, I think) to be very aggressive in discussions on terminology and conventions. That is not very suitable for us, and we have to compromise a little between reflecting the terminology used by mathematicians, and being self-consistent. Sometimes this means accepting "least bad" solutions to convention issues. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:26, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

New behavioral guideline: Editing scientific articles
See discussion here Count Iblis (talk) 15:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why do you say it's a guideline when it's an essay? Charles Matthews (talk) 16:15, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Because of a misconceptions about the way we create new guidelines. Hans Adler 16:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we gotta be careful with every comma in a science article on this wiki or the world might explode! Seesh... Pcap ping  17:22, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It is necessary, because the usual wiki rules are not enough to prevent nonsense from being edited in articles. The reason why it isn't usually a problem has a lot to do with the fact that most editors intuitively stick to my propsed guidelines and in cases where editors do not and thatleads to conflicts, Admins intervene in a reasonable way. But, strictly speaking, you can find yourself on the wrong side of wiki rules when some editor tries to edit in nonsense in articles that seems to be supported by sources if you can't simply quote from a source a direct refutaton of these edits.


 * This is a recent case. You can see that the existing wiki rules and guidelines leave too much room for quack editors to argue and put the editors who want to keep nonsense out of articles too much on the defensive. All I want to do is have a few guidelines that that points out some pitfalls when arguing like: "My book says X, the wiki article says Y, so I'm right and you're wrong".


 * Besides conflicts between editors, there have been cases of seriously flawed wiki articles. In most cases the articles would have been ok if editors had stuck to the simple rules in my guidline. Count Iblis (talk) 18:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * We don't need a new guideline just because a clueless editor tried to defend the valuable resource that Wikipedia has in the person of Randy in Boise against exasperated experts. If we augment our guidelines each time an editor makes a serious error of judgement, they will become even more contradictory than they already are and they will only be useful as something the parties of a dispute can point to, but not helpful to anyone who wants to be guided. Hans Adler 18:58, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) "There have been cases of seriously flawed wiki articles." O RLY? What else is new? Did you look at the recent history of lambda calculus? Reliable sources occasionally get some stuff wrong too, or they may express something in a misleading fashion even when it's not downright wrong. An example from about a year ago is here. But you can't really enforce clue with a guideline; you will always have editors making use of appeal to authority, because that's a basic pillar of the wiki. Thankfully, we're not writing math articles that way here, despite what the rules say. (Yes, Wikipedia has an inconsistent axiomatic system.) So, next time when someone is a clueless WP:DICK, remember there's a policy against that, making your guideline superfluous. :) Pcap ping  19:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry for being off-topic... I just want to thank Count Iblis for his contribution to the article Helmholtz free energy and its talk page; these are very helpful to me. Probably, editors in physics have more problems with quack editors than we mathematicians.Boris Tsirelson (talk) 06:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree with Pcap. There's no point in having further policies like this. A manual of rules needs to be as short as possible whilst including everything that's really necessary. This policy would be like telling grandmother how to suck eggs as far as anyone with a clue is concerned and would be ignored by the idiots with a mission. Besides it's unworkable - how would an administrator decide it was broken except by asking the parties to discuss the matter which is what happens for edit wars anyway? Making the rules any longer diminishes the ones already there. This could be put into a tutorial text but that's about it I think. Dmcq (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Boris, thanks! To the critics here, an Admin who intervenes in a dispute would have the option of pointing one or both editors to these guidlines. The word "edit war", could be avoided in some cases where now Admins would have to use that word. That could prevent tensions being raisd. Some newcomer who thinks that he his right and that his opponent is removing his "sourced edits" will have difficulties accepting the judgement that he is "edit warring", given that the wiki rules seem to support his condiuct and not the conduct of his opponent.


 * An expert at Wikipdia would also have something concrete to point to when someone complains that he is removing sourced edits, and that he is violating wiki rules. Many experts have left wikipedia after a few days out of frustration. Count Iblis (talk) 16:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Not every expert is able to "cooperate" with Randy, although some are quite good at it. But some simply want to write a complete new article from scratch and upload it. I think it would be better overall if those experts who are really stressed by the Wikipedia editing environment simply went to Citizendium and worked on writing and approving articles there. As far as I know approved Citizendium articles can be used as reliable sources for Wikipedia. And since we are now using basically the same licence, large passages can simply be copied. The Citizendium article can work as a known good state of the Wikipedia article, and consensus will autmatically crystallise around that in many cases. Conversely, improvements that happen here can be folded back into Citizendium and formally approved there after a while.
 * The complaints about removing sourced facts are a general problem of Wikipedia. They have nothing to do specifically with science articles and need to be addressed sooner or later. AFAIK it's not written policy or guideline but there was an old Arbcom decision saying persistently removing sourced statements is disruptive. I believe they were careless with their formulations at the time, so that now it can be quoted as justification to defend nonsense or irrelevancies that are properly backed with formally reliable sources.
 * Even if your text were policy it would have no effect whatsoever on edit warring. Your text might conceivably help to find out who is right in an edit war. But that's irrelevant because it's a purely behavioural concept. There are exceptions for vandalism, BLP and probably OTRS and copyvios, but your text won't add a new justification for edit warring. It might conceivably help admins to stop or prevent an edit war by deciding which side is right. But I think that would be very controversial. Hans Adler 16:50, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

GA review of "Mathematics and art" and "Jeep problem"
Protonk has started a GA Review of Mathematics and art (review page) and Jeep problem (review page). In both cases Protonk feels that the articles are some distance away from GA quality. Mathematics and art has "many challenges", which Protonk has listed in detail; Jeep problem "requires a substantial rewrite" and so Protonk has given it a more summarised review. Both reviews have a status of "On hold: this article is awaiting improvements before it is passed or failed". If anyone has the time and inclination to improve these articles, please do so. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Protonk's review Talk:Mathematics and art/GA1 is thoughtful, detailed, and well written, addressing the content of the article rather than just stylistic issues. It is the type of review I would be happy to see more often. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 11:51, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, and that is partly because the article is close enough to the GA standard that detailed suggestions for improvements might lead to a GA list. I encourage editors here to contribute to achieve such a result. Geometry guy 21:03, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Theta function
I just wrote Theta function (disambiguation) as a possible expansion to the hatnote at Theta function. I think that the list of functions should be split into the true theta functions (Jacobi's, Ramanujan's, and the q-theta functions, at least) from the other functions that merely use (or are called) theta. Something like
 * {| class="wikitable" border="1"


 * A theta function is a special function in complex analysis.
 * the Jacobi theta function $$\vartheta(z;\tau)$$
 * Jacobi theta functions (notational variations) $$\vartheta_{ij}(z;\tau), \vartheta_j(z), \theta_i(z;q)$$
 * the q-theta function $$\theta(z;q)$$

Other theta functions include
 * the Chebyshev function $$\vartheta(x)$$
 * the Riemann theta function $$\mathbb{H}_n$$
 * }

Other possibilities: leave all 10 functions in one large list; split by field (analysis/number theory/set theory).

Here's a list of possibly-related pages for comparison:
 * Theta function
 * Theta (disambiguation)
 * Psi function
 * Psi

Any thoughts? I wanted to at least let some other people look it over before I put an tag on Theta function.

CRGreathouse (t | c) 18:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine good, I never knew there was so many of them as that disambiguation page has grown to now! Dmcq (talk) 07:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Morally the Riemann theta function probably encompasses the Jacobi functions. It's for several variables, and if you make it for one variable and tweak it a bit you presumably find all the one-variable special cases. In other words there is the family of theta functions associated with abelian varieties, and they are all related in a structural way. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:27, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Links to Bonse's inequality
I've just created a new article titled Bonse's inequality. It's a stub. So:
 * Expand and otherwise improve it if you can;
 * Help figure out which other articles should link to it. I've created about three or four links (I can't count that high at the moment).  (I'm surprised we have no list of prime number topics.  If we did, it would belong there.)

Michael Hardy (talk) 00:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it clear that this topic is notable enough for its own page? Searching MathReviews, I found that it intervenes in four reviews.  If am not mistaken, can't one immediately deduce better estimates by applying Chebyshev's result that there exist explicit constants C_1 < 1, C_2 > 1 with $$C_1 < \pi(x)/(x/ \ln x) < C_2$$ for all (explicitly given) sufficiently large x?  Chebysehev's result was proven at least 50 years before Bonse's, and has an elementary proof.  (For that matter, I had some trouble finding this result on wikipedia: where is it?)  I think it would be more efficient to have a page devoted to inequalities involving $$\pi(x)$$. Plclark (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd have thought it followed even quicker from Bertrand's postulate which really is elementary. Once the factors get more than 8 you know that four times the second last prime and twice the last prime must both be bigger than the next prime. I wonder why it was thought interesting. Dmcq (talk) 07:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry I see that Chebysehev did actually use his results about bounds for the prime number theorem to prove Bertrand's postulate so it should really now be called the Bertrand-Chebyshev theorem or Chebyshev's theorem. Dmcq (talk) 07:40, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It does look like it should be merged in somewhere discussing the initial segment of their primes and their distribution. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:30, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Conventions
Following a suggestion of Emil J., I've created a new section of the math MOS: Manual of Style (mathematics). This is mostly a link to the current page on conventions, WikiProject Mathematics/Conventions. I feel like it would be a big improvement if the conventions page were merged into the MOS: The conventions page is short, is highly relevant to the MOS, and would be easier to find and maintain. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? Ozob (talk) 15:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In the past sometimes people have objected to including things in MOS subpages that are not strictly speaking style issues. But I think that was often motivated by unrelated political concerns, and I hope there are no such politics involved here. I support the move. It's not entirely clear to me whether the logic conventions should be merged as well, since they are also used by philosophers, who might not otherwise be interested in MOSMATH. But that can be decided later (and in the logic project). Hans Adler 16:10, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably inevitable. We do need to recognise the implications, and that the MoS generally has taken on a much more prescriptive role in recent years. Which is not always for the best. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not clear to me how many of our articles follow the conventions page, and when they do it is possible they do so only because the conventions described are already somewhat common elsewhere. But I don't have any strong objection to the merge as long as some cautionary language about not applying them blindly is present. I added that to the MOS just now. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 12:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to write this (please delete if so), but there needs to be more consistency with respect to how formula are presented. For example, consider the difference between how relations are written in the definition of an asymmetric relation and an anti-symmetric relation (i.e. aRb vs. R (a, b)). Conventional consistency seems to always be preferable here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.90.67.27 (talk) 18:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a fine place to write it, but I don't agree with you. Yes, there is some advantage to keeping an eye on how things are presented in different articles, to avoid confusing readers who click on a link where "compact" implies "Hausdorff" and arrive at an article where it doesn't, especially if the difference is not mentioned.  But trying to prescribe prefix versus infix notation for relations is a waste of effort in a project as sprawling as this one, and will just annoy contributors.  Any reader who has a chance of understanding the material in the first place, will be able to handle notational diversity at this level. --Trovatore (talk) 18:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Differential of a function
The definition of differential of a function that appears in that new article has appeared in calculus textbooks for more than 30 years now, and that's an unfortunate gap between mathematicians and authors of calculus textbooks. You'd hope that authors of calculus textbooks would be mathematicians, but it seems they're a different culture (I don't mean Spivak and Apostol, and I think there are a few others....). And they write books by zeroxing each other's books. It might not be politic to propose burning them at the stake as heretics, so I won't mention anything like that. But I've made some comments here.

Would other mathematicians here agree with me that this abomination is an abomination? Michael Hardy (talk) 02:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I completely agree. In fact, what is presented in the article is rather worse than what I've found in most calculus textbooks I've looked at lately.  In my experience, most 21st century calculus textbooks are written so as to never say something that is mathematically incorect, because mathematicians who teach calculus complain more vocally about actual mathematical errors than other deficiencies.  Plclark (talk) 03:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Now if possible, can you add some comment to the linked-to talk page?  I'm not at all sure the creator of that article is reading this present page. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm reading. I'm following all the disscusion   . You may read my last input in the discusion on the article's talk page. Usuwiki (talk) 02:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think there is a bit of a culture clash here. As far as I can make out, and I could very easily be wrong, this has come from an analysis/numerical viewpoint and may have started in Russia investigating linear differential operators including both Δx and dx and suchlike, and they'd want them in the same terms and comparable. I'd guess more people here see differentials as being more part of studying manifolds and start with a topological outlook and aren't so interested in finite differences. You got them both using linear maps and the same symbols so it grates. Dmcq (talk) 06:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry I see I should have gone to that page, okay will copy my comment there. Dmcq (talk) 06:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I for one have tried to redirect the new article to a section of the existing article, plus I have made some other comments in the new article's page. As for calculus textbook, I can't say much: I am Italian, and textbooks when I was a student had, if anything, the opposite problem, being a bit too formal for, say, first-year students. But I see that presently there is a tendency towards "American" calculus, using new books translated from English and even renaming courses from "Analisi matematica" to "Calcolo". Goochelaar (talk) 07:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

A triviality: are tuple and word (mathematics) the same concept?
Clearly the notion of an n-tuple is distinct from that of a word, but I but a quick search in google books failed to find a set theory definition for tuple; only n-tuple is defined. This is related to a debate on List (computing), but the article on tuple could use some clarification as well. Pcap ping  12:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Word (mathematics) is not being explained in String (computer science) and shouldn't redirect there. Cs32en  13:01, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether it should redirect there or not, it is explained there. Pcap ping  13:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just changed the redirect to point to that section. Pcap ping  13:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Normally one does not use the term "word" unqualified, it is always a word over some given finite alphabet. But otherwise there is no real difference, both word and tuple mean a finite sequence. — Emil J. 13:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. It is mostly a matter of consuetude: probably one would not say that a vector space such as $${\mathbb R}^n$$ consists of words. Similarly, the operations on tuples one would spontaneously think of are mostly termwise ones, while two words tend to be concatenated, or shuffled, and the like. So, in a sense, if you use one of the two terms rather than the other, you predispose the audience to a certain set of properties and operations. Goochelaar  (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, because "words" in $${\mathbb R}^n$$ are all n-tuples, i.e. the words have all the same length. Pcap ping  13:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. One would not usually describe $${\mathbb R}^n$$ as consisting of all words on $$\mathbb R$$ of length n either. Goochelaar  (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think that the definition of tuple from that article is a Wikipedia original, and that it was caused by renaming the article some four years ago from n-tuple; according to MathWorld "tuple" means just n-tuple for some fixed n obvious from context; it does not mean word. See further discussion at Talk:Tuple. Pcap ping  13:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Apparently the word "tuple" (without n) is mostly used by computer scientist, especially in Python programming language, where it is the actual name of a data structure. Goochelaar  (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. In Python a tuple is an immutable list. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The term is also in wide currency among relational database theorists, who use it to refer to a row of a table. (Each table is a relation, in the mathematical sense, and rows in the table are elements of the relation, and so are tuples.) —Dominus (talk) 16:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a distinction: perhaps it should be clarified by means of the concepts of internal operation and external operation. The "point" of words is that concatenation is an internal binary operation - we are living in the free monoid. Obviously you can concatenate tuples of any finite length, but this then appears as an external operation on two Cartesian powers ending up in a third. In other words (in other tuples?) as soon as you write * for concatenation with its type data you become conscious of an overloading of the notation. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Matrix calculus: Definition of the matrix derivative
Content from the archive. The issue is still unresolved. Cs32en 13:04, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

We could use some help to resolve a controversy about the correct formulae for the matrix differential and the matrix derivative at the article Matrix calculus. See the talk page, especially the section Disputed information: Matrix derivative. Cs32en 22:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I concur we need assistance, primarily as to the notation(s) actually used in serious mathematical works. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 15:49, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * See Talk:Matrix calculus for my view as to the matters in dispute, and my take on them. My desired outcome is not necessarily represented in all cases.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 21:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

This really should be resolved by verifying that the formulae stand as stated in the references (and noting the conventions in operation, per reference). I edited the section on the nature of the so-called "matrix derivative" - and there doesn't seem to be controversy about that. So that leaves only the formulae collected from the literature. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Leibniz function
With respect to article Leibniz function, can someone please verify its meaning in regards to its derivative ( f ( x ) f ' ( x ) = 1 ). Not familiar with the term in this context and the word "Leibniz" is not found anywhere inside the books listed as references.

My addition/contribution to the article is with respect to Lie groups/algebra, with cleanup under the good-faith assumption that such an identity exists and is named after Leibniz. Henry Delforn (talk) 16:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't seen that usage before, and I find it at least a little bit implausible that any such convention is widespread. Michael Hardy (talk) 22:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Category:Type theory and Category:data types
Cat Data types lists Cat Type theory as sub-category, which causes a lot of data types articles, e.g. some, but not all in Category:Composite data types, to be added (manually) to type theory as well. This appears wrong to me as a way of organizing this stuff. Pcap ping  03:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At a quick glance, I agree. Type theory is not about data types, at least not as data types are understood in computer science (although there are certainly analogies).  Neither should be a subcat of the other.  Possibly a few pages belong in both, but not very many, I think. --Trovatore (talk) 03:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you're confusing data types with data structures. Pcap ping  05:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Type theory and data types are quite different things. --Trovatore (talk) 06:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Most articles on this wiki in this area are crappy and fail to explain the link, but see initial algebra, and for more details. How categories and types are related, I probably don't have to explain to you, but given that we don't have an article on the syntactic topos (as Steve Awodey calls Lambek's topos generated by a type theory), and that neither topos or type theory mentions the notion (or the other article), you may want to read about it in Lambek's book Introduction to Higher Order Categorical Logic, or if you want an executive summary, see Steve Awody's paper. Pcap  ping  07:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. Bart Jacobs in Categorical Logic and Type Theory (1999), appears to call the syntactic topos, effective topos, but that might be a more general notion; I haven't read close enough his book, and I don't have the time currently to do so. But Jacobs book also explains in more detail how these notions relate to date types in ML etc., including a chapter on parametric polymorphism etc. Pcap ping  08:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * On that point, "effective topos" is something based on realisability; "syntactic topos" as you define it sounds like a general construction from a language. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, there is a difference. I don't pretend to understand it well enough to write about it on Wikipedia though. Sketches of an Elephant, chapter D1, has more general construction of a syntactic category (wrong article on the wiki) for a first order language, of which first order logic is a particular case. Johnstone then introduces sketches as being "in some sense intermediate between a theory [of a first order language] and its syntactic category [...]; it has some of the advantages of each, but also some of the disadvantages of each.", p. 861, and goes on to explain those advantages and disadvantages. He then generalized these notions in chapter D4 over higher-order signatures, of which simply typed lambda calculus (with product types) is particular case (a lambda signature has no relation symbols). Then he gets to Lambek's well-known result of the correspondence between simply typed lambda calculus and CCCs. This correspondence is rather technical, there's no "classical completeness theorem" for lambda-theories; I won't try to describe it here. He then goes on to define tau signatures (tau stands for topos/type), which are more general than lambda-signatures in that they allow primitive relation symbols. As you guessed, the syntactic category of tau-theory is a topos, and rather surprisingly, there is a completeness theorem for tau calculus. He then introduces mu-lambda-calculus (Martin-Löf type theory), which corresponds to LCCCs. Quite an interesting expose. Pcap ping  18:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Look, you can find all the connections you like. It isn't even remotely the point.  Neither of those categories should be a subcat of the other, period. They are from different fields of endeavor.  --Trovatore (talk) 10:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How so? Is type polymorphism for instance not applicable to programming (thus data), or not covered by type theory as an endeavor? Category:data types is a bit of a misnomer by using the adjective "data", but is anyone willing to have something called just Category:types? Pcap ping  18:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Types in general are not amenable to treatment by computer. For example they tend to be uncountable.  Even when they're not, they're not things you find in a programming language &mdash; they're at least one level more abstract than that, the Platonic ideal objects underlying what you find in a programming language.  On the other hand, data types as I understand them are something you would find in a programming language, something with language-specific syntax. --Trovatore (talk) 20:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Simply not true. Pcap ping  20:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Which part? --Trovatore (talk) 20:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Data types and types are the same thing as explained at Type system, not Platonically removed as you see it. Pcap ping  20:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They aren't. Types are essentially the structure V&omega;+&omega;, except that you can't mix ranks. --Trovatore (talk) 20:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes they are. A type system is a countable collection of ideals of V. See Cardelli and Wegner, section 3, starting on page 14. Pcap ping  20:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Who mentioned type systems? The category is called type theory.  The obvious thing people are going to think of is Russell's type theory.  The natural interpretation of that is the one I said. --Trovatore (talk) 20:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

← Which "people" are we talking about? See the pretty picture in theoretical computer science. Pcap ping  21:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if you want to focus on the things there, they still aren't data types. Come on, I think you're just being argumentative here.  Data types are things like int and bool and double, structs and classes, things that you find in a specific language or an IEEE spec.  They're not part of theoretical computer science at all, which takes at least one extra step towards Platonic abstraction.  This is how almost everyone is going to interpret them. If the data types category intends something else, then it's misnamed.  --Trovatore (talk) 21:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I did my best to explain it, but you just don't get it, or don't want to get it. Bye. Pcap ping  21:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't let the door hit you on the way out. --Trovatore (talk) 21:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Element (mathematics)
Someone just created symbol (formal) with a redirect from symbol (logic). In my opinion such mini-articles with no potential are a maintainability nightmare and should be merged. In a note to the editor I was about to write that symbol (formal) is redundant with formal language in the same way that element (mathematics) doesn't exist because it's redundant with set (mathematics). Fortunately I checked this first: It turns out that we do have this article.

Do we really need this? Hans Adler 10:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Element (mathematics) is in Category: Basic concepts in set theory; set (mathematics) is in Category:Set theory. This indicates to me a difference in pedagogic level. So which "we" are we talking about? Charles Matthews (talk) 14:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is a useful article. Paul August &#9742; 14:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Henry Gordon Rice was...
At Henry Gordon Rice, we are informed that:
 * Henry Gordon Rice was a logician and mathematician best known as[.....]
 * Henry Gordon Rice was a logician and mathematician best known as[.....]

No dates of birth and death. Only the word "was" implies he is deceased. But on the talk page it says the article must comply with Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons.

Which is it? Michael Hardy (talk) 04:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's probably undecidable based on what's available on google. :p Pcap ping  04:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * SSDI gives a Henry G. Rice (20 July 1920 - 14 April 2003) which was probably him.John Z (talk) 22:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Shouldn't we cite this as a reference instead of external link in math logic articles? The two math articles I've looked at Type Theory, and Second-order and Higher-order Logic are written by published academics, and in the type theory case, by a well-known researcher in that area (despite the fact that he doesn't get a Wikipedia article), so the article is much better than what we have here, which describes type theory up to 1941 or so. Pcap ping  16:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think in the past I have changed several references in this way. We could consider a specific template for such references to encourage this and make the citations uniform. Like Template:PlanetMath or Template:ScienceWorld. Hans Adler 17:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * A template would be good. But the difference between a "reference" and an "external link" should be determined structurally (notionally, references are used in putting the article together), with the "External links" section having the same status as "Further reading". Charles Matthews (talk) 19:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The other point is that encyclopedias in general are not usually thought of as high-quality references. Tertiary sources like Wikipedia are supposed to reference mainly secondary sources and possibly a few primary, but not other tertiary sources.  It could be that the SEP is something more than an "encyclopedia" in that sense, and in that case it might be OK.  But it's understandable that editors would be reluctant to use as a reference a work with Encyclopedia in its name. --Trovatore (talk) 19:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Count me among the people who do not want to see us citing SEP. The problem is not the word "encyclopedia", although that is related. There are two sorts of refernces that we should cite predominately in our "content articles" (for lack of a better term). We generally avoid the following for general content: In essentially every case, the sorts of facts that we could source to these will also be covered in book-length treatments that provide much more value to the reader than these sorts of references provide. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 21:02, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Journal articles, for for establishing the dates of discoveries and attributing them to the correct mathematicians. Occasionally, esoteric facts are only going to be found in journals.
 * 2) Monographs and other book-length treatments, including textbooks, Lecture Notes in Mathematics, and compilations such as the Handbook of Mathematical Logic. These can devote enough pages to cover a topic in much greater depth than we can, and will usually provide a rigorous and formal treatment. They provide enough context that the reader can really dig into the topic and come away with a depth of knowledge. These are the sorts of things I would be likely to cite in a journal paper if I needed a basic fact from graduate school.
 * 1) Newspaper and magazine articles: these are useful for popular culture and opinion but lack enough depth to be a useful reference for the mathematics itself
 * 2) Short handouts people have used in classes (book-length lecture notes are a separate issue)
 * 3) Expository articles that do not differ significantly from what our ideal article on the subject would say. These do not go any deeper than our article does, and so do not provide additional depth of understanding. Actually, WP:EL discourages even linking to these, but we have a general practice of linking to PlanetMath, Mathworld, Citizendium, the Stanford Encyclopedia, etc.


 * "do not differ significantly from what our ideal article" - Many wikipedia articles are not ideal and may never be, so why not link to expository articles ? Also links to free online sources are useful in that it is easier to check something online than go to the library, especially if your library doesn't have the item you want. Charvest (talk) 21:30, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I am saying we should include these as "external links", not as references, because there are better things to use as references. There is also the issue of lack of context and lack of depth in short expository articles, which do not provide enough information to allow readers to actually learn much about the topic. For example, if our article presents various theorems without proof, we want to provide "references" that include the proofs that we omit, not "references' that just list the same theorems without proof. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 21:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I have created an external link template for the Encyclopedia at SEP. Skomorokh  22:42, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Bhatia–Davis inequality
I've just written a short article titled Bhatia–Davis inequality. I could use work both on itself and on links to it from other articles. Michael Hardy (talk) 18:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't find the result hard to believe, once I'd understood the extremal case; but I was a little surprised it wasn't more classical. I found this PDF which has plenty of context, at one level: http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk1/tape10/PQDD_0027/MQ50799.pdf. (Not either of the things you were asking for, I know). Charles Matthews (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Sweeping revisions to differential of a function
I have just radically revised the whole article.

I deleted the "Disputed" tag I added earlier.

You'll notice the definition of total differential and partial differential. One of the various great virtues of the Leibniz notation is that it makes ideas like this so simple. Is there any easier heuristic argument for the chain rule for partial derivatives than that?

(And at this time, chain rule for partial derivatives is a red link! Should we remedy that?)

Also, I've proposed a merger with differential (calculus).

We should consider adding to the article the more advanced and otherwise different viewpoints, including 1-forms. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

....and now I see that someone else has drastically revised it after my edits. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The chain rule in more than one variable is already covered in the chain rule article; see here. Although it does need a lot of work to be done to it.  Dr Dec  ( Talk )    17:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * With regard to your observation that someone else had drastically revised the article after your own, I think it is fairer to say that your (welcome) revision occurred sometime in the midst of my own incremental revisions. As a matter of fact, I was about to do something similar in spirit to your first paragraph, but I was unable to save my revision due to an edit conflict.  I do hope that our collaborative effort has, at least, brought the article a significant step along the road to being a worthy encyclopedia article. Sławomir Biały (talk) 17:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Maths Pedagogy
Every so often it seems schools come up with some yet sillier way to make maths inaccessible. Lots of different words to learn about distinctions between different triangles, funny rigmaroles when adding or subtracting, points will be taken off for misspellings and suchlike. I noticed in article Negative and non-negative numbers someone put in raised minus as in −5 for instance. Seemingly they are now learning to put in +5 and −5 to show the numbers are positive or negative and should say subtract, negative or opposite of in the appropriate situations. I was wondering if an article on such ideas might be an idea or what it should be called? I probably would have too strong a POV for it :) I suppose it would be something referenced from Mathematics education as I can see it growing quite large so it wouldn't fit within that. Dmcq (talk) 18:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, we can't go creating an article just to rant about things we think are silly in trends in math ed. We can't even synthesize criticisms made by others.  However, if you find some self-conscious organization or movement, about which there are reliable sources, that makes these criticisms, then you can write about it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Already done: Tom Lehrer got there first. Kan8eDie (talk) 23:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC) (Edit: I was thinking of New Math)
 * If you ever wrote a parser, you'd know it's not totally trivial to distinguish unary minus from binary minus. I guess they want to make it easier for the kids by simplifying their parsing function :P Pcap ping  00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Fast algorithms
I read this article a while ago, and thought that it is someone's attempt at creating a page on efficient algorithms. Perhaps I am mistaken, but what in the world is a "fast algorithm"? Is this a field of research in computational mathematics? How is this different from the usual algorithm design that computer scientists do? --Robin (talk) 21:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, here is some web page with a definition of a "fast algorithm": . It would take some research in the computational complexity literature to see if this is actually a well-established term. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 21:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Do we have any experts in numerical algorithms here? I avoided that topic in grad school. In complexity theory "at large", "fast algorithm" is just too vague to have a definition. Pcap ping  22:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What they seem to do is to consider bit complexity instead of assuming a RAM where you can add intergers increment an integer (of any length!) in O(1). It's obviously written by fokes outside US which use their own terminology... Pcap  ping  21:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The algorithms and concepts listed on that page seem very well-studied in the field of algorithms: Karatsuba algorithm, Divide and conquer algorithm, Coppersmith–Winograd algorithm, fast Fourier transform. Perhaps the word "fast" is just a translation artifact from Russian to English, with the word "efficient" being used in English instead of "fast"? I haven't ever read the term "fast algorithms" in the complexity literature, but maybe I'm not reading the right stuff. --Robin (talk) 21:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Me neither. The complexity difference between a RAM and a plain Turing machine, which is what the use, is a logN factor. Pcap ping  22:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it fast, as in fast transforms: fast fourier transforms, fast wavelet transforms, fast hadamard transforms etc... Charvest (talk) 22:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ... fast multiscale transforms, fast gauss transforms, fast Johnson-Lindenstrauss transforms, ... Charvest (talk) 22:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * fast hough transform, fast hartley transform, Fast Walsh Transform, fast m-transform, fast Karhunen-Loeve transform, fast jacket transform ... Charvest (talk) 22:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The article tinkles a little alarm bell for me, not very loud, but enough that I'd at least like to ask: Is it standard practice to combine these things under the rubric of fast algorithms?  If not, then the article might be a neologism, or original synthesis.
 * Also the technical definition of fast is unreferenced. Again I would like to know whether this is standard, or something abstracted by the editor who wrote it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's a page talking about automating the process of creating fast algorithms: Automatic Generation of Transform Algorithms "it is possible to automatically generate fast algorithms for discrete signal transforms". Charvest (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That does not appear to be what our article is about though. How is matrix multiplication related to that? Pcap ping  22:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * From http://www.ccas.ru/personal/karatsuba/algen.htm, which what is article is based on, it appears he's concerned with Kolmogorov complexity of evaluating a function with a given precision(?!) I don't have the patience to read all the stuff on his web page. The bottom line as I see it is that the article is based solely on that guy's web page, including the overreaching terminology. It's a paper that appeared in some "internal" Steklov proceedings. I think we need a better source to have a shot at understanding what's he saying there... In the mean time, the article should be moved to the creator's user space. Pcap ping  22:55, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that guy is a chick. My uninformed random guess is that this is just another east/west split, and that if the Russian sources were in English then we would see this as just another esoteric topic that we would not mind as an article topic. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 23:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I was confused because Karatsuba that developed the original algorithm wasn't a chick. The chick is probably related to him. Pcap ping  23:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Let's recap:
 * My first impression was correct: the issue is bit complexity in operations on large integers (or possibly arbitrary precision reals as well); see Karatsuba algorithm or Toom–Cook multiplication.
 * This article is not about random algorithms that have "fast" in their name. Nor is it about automatically generating algorithms for some transformations. It also does not involve Kolmogorov complexity; it just happens that Kolmogorov was also interested in this.
 * The generic terminology "fast algorithm" is non-standard. It appears to be an attempt to define a class of algorithms that are like Karatsuba etc. It's surely non-standard because it doesn't appear in any of our other articles linked from it. Pcap ping  23:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Browsing the literature starting with the elder Karatsuba's web page, and Google scholar, suggests that the term "fast" must have some meaning to people in the area, or they wouldn't use it as often. It's a fallacy to assume that our coverage here is half complete. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 23:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fast in this context is actually well-defined later in the article (I've commented on the article's talk page). But what is still unclear to me is the importance of this notion. Pcap ping  23:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If I understand correctly from the article, an algorithm is said to be fast if it is only log factors slower than the best known lower bound. An interesting concept, but I've never seen it before. --Robin (talk) 23:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean slower than multiplication by a polylogarithmic factor. But why is this definition important? The article fails convey that... Pcap ping
 * Oh, I see. It's slower than multiplication by log factors (log factors = polylog factor). Which means an algorithm is called fast, if it runs in time Õ(n). I have no idea why this definition is important though. --Robin (talk) 00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Õ(M(n)) time indeed. Pcap ping  01:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is the same as Õ(n) since M(n) = Õ(n) --Robin (talk) 01:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Anonymous recursion
Although this has marked as a computer science topic (by changing its category), it doesn't contain any programming or the like, and it tries, but fails to define a mathematical concept. The article has good number of issues. See it's talk page. Pcap ping  02:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that this sort of thing can be discussed on the article's talk page. If every bad article were reported on this page, everyone would be overwhelmed. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 02:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, in the same vein however, the dubious notion of an "anonymous function" (as opposed to ??? in lambda calculus) appears at Fixed point combinator as well; see the talk page there. Pcap ping  05:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Algorithm up for GA reassessment
Algorithm has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here. Wizardman 22:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I found that article pretty terrible for me as lecture, like other work of Wvbailey's I've looked at; Random access machine comes to mind. It focuses on minutiae, most of which is barely relevant, to the point that one cannot see the forest because of the trees. The writing style making very frequent direct references to the sources with page numbers and in-text are very distracting to me. The first thing that came to my mind after I finished reading it is how true is what User:Donhalcon said in his goodbye to Wikipedia: "this is a multi-subject fan site." I'm not going to spend my time pissing on Wvbailey's parade. Just not worth the return on investment like Don said.Pcap ping  18:37, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Kostant partition function
This article has been proposed for deletion. Would merging it to Weight (representation theory) be a good alternative to deletion? If so, or if there's a better merge target, could someone do the merge? My maths doesn't extend to understanding this. Fences &amp;  Windows  01:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be kept. Someone removed the deletion tag.  That is as it should be. Michael Hardy (talk) 03:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Now the article has been expanded (it was very short previosly) and as Hardy writes, the deletion tag has been removed. I also think the article should be kept. Ulner (talk) 18:51, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. It is still Greek to me, but if it's independently notable in maths then all is well! Fences  &amp;  Windows  22:41, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Mathematics deletion sorting list
I've recently been doing quite a bit of deletion sorting, and while many topics have associated deletion sorting lists, mathematics is a notable exception. I find this surprising given that maths is a subject that can be completely impenetrable to someone like me who has no understanding of almost everything above GCSE level. This means that there is often a need for input from someone able to understand the importance (or otherwise) of the subject being nominated.

My question therefore is whether people here feel there would be a benefit in creating such a list? Thryduulf (talk) 20:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Mathematical articles that are proposed for deletion or nominated on AfD are noted in WikiProject Mathematics/Current activity, which is maintained by a bot. Category:AfD debates (Science and technology) is also useful. I don't see much point to yet another list, but if someone wants to maintain it, then why not. Gandalf61 (talk) 20:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Evenness of zero is under peer review
Comments welcome at Peer review/Evenness of zero/archive1. (I suppose this'll be picked up on current activity soon enough, but why wait?) Cheers, Melchoir (talk) 03:31, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

(Wikimedia) Intersection categories
After having a look at math article alerts, as well as Jitse's activity bot, I concluded that a lot of that stuff could be done by a simple feature in Wikimedia: "intersection categories". Basically to find out if a math article is nominated for whatever, or needs expert input (cleanup and what not) could be done almost trivially if Wikimedia natively supported intersection of categories. I see that there's actually a request for enhancement on bugzilla; somebody even wrote the code, it just needs to be tested and committed. Perhaps you could weigh in on that? Pcap ping  07:28, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. There's a more generic, but still 3rd party Cat scan. Pcap ping  07:31, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * P.P.S. The expert-subject template is yet another (special purpose) implementation of intersection categories. Pcap ping  07:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that an official extension that supports this does exist. It's called DynamicPageList, but it's only installed on wikinews. Pcap ping  10:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Alas I fear this is one of the many good ideas on wikipedia which have a small chance of ever making it into en-wikipeida. This has been around the block several times Category intersection was the most recent proposal. There does not seem to be a sufficient number of highly committed people to push this through, and the developers are wary. There are some very real performance issues and some big unanswered questions as to precise method of implementation. For the most part, people seem to work around the problem with various bots creating special purpose categories and third party tools.--Salix (talk): 13:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanking Wikipedia
Just for fun, a quote: "We thank the anonymous referees of the conference and journal versions of the paper for providing useful comments and references, and the anonymous writers of the article on the central limit theorem in Wikipedia for leading us on to the Berry-Esséen theorem." Page 510 of the journal Algorithmica (2009), vol. 55, the paper "Random Measurement Bases, Quantum State Distinction and Applications to the Hidden Subgroup Problem" by Jaikumar Radhakrishnan, Martin Rötteler and Pranab Sen. Boris Tsirelson (talk) 16:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Great find! Thanks for posting it here. --Robin (talk) 16:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Hilbert space gradually moving towards GA
I'm in the process of bringing the Hilbert space article up to scratch for GA. It was delisted by User:Geometry guy last year, but it has progressed substantially since that time. It's almost in a shape that I would consider nominating for relisting as GA, but I thought I should solicit input here somewhat unofficially before doing so. Thanks, Sławomir Biały (talk) 18:11, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid this is probably off-topic, but is $$\langle, \rangle$$ a good choice for denoting an inner product? I know it's fairly standard but the problem is that it conflicts with the other standard notation $$\langle x, f \rangle = f(x)$$ where f is a linear functional. For this reason, I use $$(\cdot \mid \cdot)$$ for inner products, and I don't think I'm in minority. I'm not proposing anything, but just wondering.


 * Also, a note to myself and the others: we need Operators on Hilbert spaces. Arguably, this is more important than Hilbert spaces. -- Taku (talk) 23:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I see nothing wrong with using $$\langle, \rangle$$. The potential conflict with a (somewhat uncommon) notation for the pairing of a vector space with its dual is not likely to lead to any major confusion.  I find notation resembling the bra-ket notation aesthetically abhorrent, although perhaps because I have too often seen it abused in quantum mechanics.  Also, (-|-) is certainly a minority notation in mathematics: much more common is to use a comma as the delimiter: (-,-).  However this runs the obvious risk of confusion with an ordered pair. Sławomir Biały (talk) 01:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think this should be a really big deal. The Riesz representation theorem says that the Hilbert space inner product determines an isomorphism of the Hilbert space V with its dual V*, and under that isomorphism, the inner product pairing transforms into the natural pairing of V and V*. The article explains all this at Hilbert space, so after that subsection I see no reason why we should have to squint at each use of a pairing and try to determine whether it's the inner product or the duality pairing: We can just use $$\langle\,,\rangle$$ for both. If it's really necessary to make that distinction (e.g., before Riesz's theorem has been explained), then we should probably do what I remember Halmos doing in his Finite-dimensional vector spaces. He uses brackets for one pairing and parentheses for another, and at some point he has a section named "Brackets versus parentheses" where he explains how the two are really the same; afterwards he doesn't distinguish the two.


 * On another note, I can't see the left and right angle brackets on this browser, Firefox 2.0.0.20; I get a ? instead of an angle bracket. Ozob (talk) 20:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * There's no problem, this is just the vector-covector interpretation given to evaluating a linear function (covector) on a vector.  Dr Dec  ( Talk )    20:29, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Category:Markov chains and Category:Markov models
There is a naming dispute considering the correct name for the category for the main article Markov chain and related articles, see WP:CFD. 76.66.192.144 (talk) 03:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Point on plane closest to origin
The article titled Point on plane closest to origin is in pretty sorry shape. I thought of correcting its many obvious failures to follow usual and useful Wikipedia conventions, but it's not clear that the article is worth keeping.

Using Lagrange multipliers for this thing that can be done by simple geometric or algebraic methods is not so different from some things I've seen actual mathematicians do, even if it is swatting a fly with a pile driver. But it's certainly needless complication. I'd think of two things: (1) inner-product-space methods; and (2) secondary-school algebra and geometry. Those two points of view seem worth mentioning if there is to be such an article. But Lagrange multipliers don't seem worth more than a terse statement. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I would consider adding an discussion of the distance from a point to a subspace in the article Euclidean distance, perhaps. For now, I don't think the content justifies a separate article. Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:59, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that the article be proposed for deletion, since Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information  Dr Dec  ( Talk )    20:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)