Talk:Albert Camus

Nationality
The page has a note that refers to discussion on Camus' nationality on the talk but I don't see it. His parents are French but he was born in Algeria. He is Algerian, North African, or African, but he is not French. (User:Syzygyst/talk) 8/10/2023 — Preceding undated comment added 17:50, 10 August 2023 (UTC)


 * He was born in French Algeria with French citizenship to French parents and moved to France, what do you not get? He wasn't ever an Algerian citizen. NAADAAN (talk) 18:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Camus was born in Algeria as it was the official name of the territory during colonial period, however Algerian citizenship at the time did not exist which means that Camus was french only in legal terms as he did not have Algerian paperworks, but he did have a French and an Algerian nationality as he was indeed born in Algeria and had french origins.
 * Citizenship and nationality are two different terms that are being confused
 * citizenship and nationality a often used interchangeably but the have a slightre 105.101.165.35 (talk) 17:36, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * But they have a slight difference that should be looked into 105.101.165.35 (talk) 17:38, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * If there is a source that shows that Camus sought Algerian citizenship after Algeria obtained its independence, I will be free to add it as such. However, stating that he's Algerian based on Algerian nationality laws would possibly count as WP:OR. Most Americans can get another citizenship based on their ancestry, yet they are still counted as American since they never filed a claim for citizenship under their jurisdiction. As a matter of fact, a quasi-totality of Jews and their descendants can obtain Israeli citizenship per the Law of Return, but it would be insincere to label every Jew as a "French-Israeli", a "German-Israeli" or an "Israeli-American". I hope that's enough. NAADAAN (talk) 19:37, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before Camus did not have citizenship but nationality a distinction should be made between the two, nationality doesn't require paperworks and documents just the simple fact that Camus was born in Algeria please look into the difference between citizenship and nationality. 41.220.149.195 (talk) 10:25, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Under Algerian nationality law, nationality by birth is reserved for persons born to at least one parent with Algerian nationality. His parents, being born in France, would make him ineligible for Algerian nationality. Hence being born in Algeria does not automatically make one a national.  NAADAAN (talk) 23:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @NAADAAN I think that you should consider the fact that Camus considered himself as an Algerian, that he was part of Algeria and that this country was his motherland.
 * Even if it changed and Algeria got its independence, why should it be that Camus is no longer algerian? Germany split into two countries, but still all the people born in West Germany or East Germany are of German nationality, no? As a matter of fact, Germany changed more than once, nevertheless, I never saw any "german" born in Prussia being called anything but "German".
 * For me, there is a double standard here that you need to rectify. 2A02:8440:A104:9EE3:0:45:B3A9:6601 (talk) 08:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * He died prior to the founding of an independent Algeria in 1961, whereas he wouldn't have gotten Algerian citizenship or nationality eitherway. Per MOS:NATIONALITY Camus held French citizenship with a French passport and was a permanent resident of France when he became notable -- this is irrelevant to how he felt about the independence of French Algeria. He was residing in Metropolitan France when his literary career began until his death and held a French passport -- this makes him French. NAADAAN (talk) 14:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Albert Camus was born in Algeria and later moved to France. This is the case for many people during that period who have both French and Algerian heritage.
 * He can be considered Franco-Algerian, similar to Zidane and others. He often expressed his love for both countries and was against the war. During the Algerian War, many figures who were born in Algeria under French colonization, they hold French citizenship, and they are mentioned as Algerians in the articles. Nationality was relative to the context of that particular period of time. I hold a differing perspective from @NAADAAN, as he adopts a theoretical approach to that period and disregard the entire context.
 * Regards Riad Salih (talk) 17:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Expressing love" is far from a pledge of allegiance, let alone citizenship or nationality. Your "differing perspective" differs from MOS:CITIZEN which requires "where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable" and that "neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability". Despite its subject matter, The Stranger was published when Camus was living in Metropolitan France. I was unable to find any WP:RS source demonstrating that Camus was Algerian, so I would appreciate if you provided the articles supposedly written during the war. To determine previous consensus, looking at the articles for other notable pied-noirs (whether in Morocco or France) only describe them as "French", not "French-Algerian" or "French-Moroccan". NAADAAN (talk) 17:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that expressing love is an argument here . You gave the example of the Blackfeet, which is not really the point I'm making.
 * Let me provide another example to illustrate my viewpoint. Ahmed Ben Bella was born in Algeria, joined the French army, and fought in World War II. During that time, there was no Algerian nationality. Even though he later became the first president of Algeria after its independence, would he be considered a French citizen? Similarly, take the case of Larbi Ben M'hidi, who was born in Algeria during French rule and died before independence. Would he be considered French? The concept of nationality and citizenship during that time was relative, unlike the clear policies we have in the modern world regarding citizenship. Albert Camus is widely known as a North African and European figure, and his most famous book, 'The Stranger,' depicts Algiers. It's important to note that comparing Morocco to Algeria is not valid as the contexts are vastly different. We can continue to discuss and argue if you'd like.
 * If we consider the notability argument, Camus was indeed notable during his time in Algeria. If you believe otherwise, please explain the reasons. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 18:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * He is a pied-noir, which had different status as the "indigenous" in French Algeria. Per French Wikipedia, "indigenous Muslims" were considered to be French subjects but not nationals or citizens, unlike pied-noirs and Algerian Jews.
 * "Camus was indeed notable during his time in Algeria." His article seems to describe his adult life in Algeria as a goalkeeper for a local football club and university student in Algiers, which is not notable in of itself. You gave the examples of two FLN members, Ben Bella would be considered Algerian since that is the nationality he held when he was most notable and both would be considered "indigenous Muslims" and wouldn't have had French citizenship unless naturalized.
 * "The concept of nationality and citizenship during that time was relative, unlike the clear policies we have in the modern world regarding citizenship." No, there were decrees and laws under French colonial rule specifically which subjects in French Algeria obtained citizenship of Metropolitan France and did not. This is not a necromancy session to see if Camus would have been more loyal to France or an independent Algeria, the fact his family immediately left after Algeria in favor of France after Algeria gained its independence is enough.
 * "his most famous book, 'The Stranger,' depicts Algiers." If I write a novel about Kampala, does this make me Ugandan?
 * "comparing Morocco to Algeria is not valid as the contexts are vastly different" How so? Both had Europeans settle it, albeit to a different scale.
 * "We can continue to discuss and argue if you'd like" I'd be honored. NAADAAN (talk) 21:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I suppose we should refer to George Washington as British. He was born when it was a part of the British Empire and the American nationality did not exist. Syzygyst (talk) 01:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * George Washington took an oath to the newly-founded United States in 1789 and led a rebellion against the British Empire. Camus is not Algerian per MOS:NATIONALITY. NAADAAN (talk) 02:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @NAADAAN I completely overlooked this discussion. Why are you insisting on emphasizing the nationality aspect? Anyone familiar with Albert Camus knows that he was a piednoir, with both French and Algerian heritage. It seems like you're trying to approach this issue from a political standpoint. Additionally, it's not your responsibility to determine whether he was Algerian or not, especially considering he is no longer alive. @Syzygyst made a valid point about being flexible with MOS:NATIONALITY, which is a simple manual style, nothing more; as we can consider the context and apply principles such as Ignore all rules and Be bold.
 * Albert Camus is undeniably a North African writer, born in Algeria – that is a fact. While he wrote in French and faced difficulties in identifying himself as either Algerian or French due to the immense pressure during the war, that is a separate discussion. Riad Salih (talk) 18:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed, as citizenship and national belonging are very personal topics and as MOS:FIRSTBIO specifies "location, nationality for the activities that made the person notable" and he gained notability in France. There has been discussion about this dating back thirteen years!!! The fact that he died prior to Algeria obtained its independence makes such an assessment anachronistic.
 * Would Jean-Luc Melenchon be considered a French-Moroccan? Would Gandhi be considered an Englishman as he was a British subject? The answer to both of these questions are no -- settlers and natives had different statuses under colonial rule as I have explained before. His birth place is in the lead, why would this not be sufficient? NAADAAN (talk) 20:00, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It surpasses my understanding why you persistently provide misleading examples. As I previously mentioned, every context has its distinct characteristics. Comparing Albert Camus to Jean-Luc Mélenchon or Gandhi is akin to drawing arbitrary connections without considering the nuances. Once more, those are only Manuals of Style.
 * Furthermore, while I always assume good faith, I must address the focus of your contributions, which predominantly revolve around Moroccan content. If your contribution in this topic is to engage in the Algeria/Morocco social media war, I must emphasize that this platform may not be the appropriate venue for such discussions. Riad Salih (talk) 20:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no other reason to bring up my edit history in this context unless you are insinuating that my contributions are part of a mere guéguerre against Algeria because I live in Morocco. To avoid this discussion turning unreasonable, I'll raise this to DRN. NAADAAN (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We make our edits, cite proper sources, leave comments for other editors, and come back the next day to see all changes reverted. I feel like I'm pushing a boulder uphill. 2001:49D0:8511:3:181A:CCAF:4199:1A0F (talk) 15:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This conversation already went to the DRN. The vast majority of sources describe him as French. NAADAAN (talk) 16:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Editor-in-chief of Paris-Soir?
The article currently states
 * ...in 1940 and Camus flew to Paris to take a new job at Paris-Soir as editor-in-chief.

In Sean Carroll's 2013 book (p.11) it says
 *  in the spring of 1940, [...] Camus was an aspiring but unknown twenty-six-year-old writer, working as a layout designer for the newspaper Paris-Soir 

and on p.54
 * Camus soon obtained a position as a layout designer with Paris-Soir, [...] Camus had no reporting or writing responsibilities.

And after the German occupation
 * To Camus’s disgust, Paris-Soir joined the chorus of worship that heralded Pétain as France’s savior.

(p.115). The book never describes Camus as editor-in-chief of Paris-Soir. Do we have other sources that make this claim? AxelBoldt (talk) 23:56, 18 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the question. Give me some time, and I will have a look at my sources. Cinadon36 06:08, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There are two citations of the particular sentence. Patrick Hayden and Sherman.
 * Hayden, p13.
 * ...Camus was forced to leave Algeria for Paris where Pia had found a position for him as assistant editor with the newspaper ParisSoir.... Camus arrived in Paris on 16 March 1940. His duties for Paris-Soir were editorial rather than journalistic – as secrétaire de redaction he was responsible for the paper’s layout – which enabled Camus to ....
 * Sherman, p13.
 * "...Pia was able to secure editorial positions for both himself and Camus at the relatively apolitical Paris-Soir, and Camus left for Paris..."
 * I believe that these are sufficient. Certainly not editor in chief- I have to look a bit further that. Cinadon36 12:23, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll change "editor in chief" to "layout editor" for now. AxelBoldt (talk) 21:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! @AxelBoldt Cinadon36 21:26, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Philosophy of Albert Camus article
Good afternoon,

I'm a French wikipedia contributor and I work on the article named Philosophie d'Albert Camus. I thought it would be interesting to translate this page into English and improve it, but I don't have the rights required to create a page on the English Wikipedia. May you help me ?

Here is my draft : User:Youre breathtaking/Philosophy of Albert Camus.

Regards Youre breathtaking (talk) 14:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @Youre breathtaking I have transferred the article to your draft and made edits to the references. You can continue working on it there, and once you're ready, you can publish it. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 18:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * , there was zero reason to move that page in the manner in which you did; I have reverted your moves. Primefac (talk) 21:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi @Primefac could you please explain why I couldn't move a text from his user page to his draft page? The draft page is where drafts should be added.
 * Since he is a new user he mixed things, the draft page is the appropriate place for us to both edit the article and translate it. I'm familiar with the user because he edited the French version. Is there a rule that I might be unaware of? Regards Riad Salih (talk) 02:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You moved his draft page from one subpage to another; there is no thing as "a user's draft page"; any subpage of a user page can be a draft page if it looks like an article and is being worked on as such. If you meant to move it to the draft space, then you should have moved it to Draft:Philosophy of Albert Camus, but since there are eyes on it and the next move might actually be to the article space (i.e. Philosophy of Albert Camus) there is very little point in moving it to the Draft space just to move it again to the Article space.
 * As a minor point, I reverted the moves before I saw this discussion because I thought it was potentially vandalism; when you are moving pages (or really, making any edit) please make sure you use an edit summary to explain your actions. Primefac (talk) 06:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)