Talk:List of fellows of the Association for Computing Machinery

Wikilinking
Ping who I believe is interested in this article and know of some (semi-)automatic tool to complete the Wikilinking save one slot of the article. Solomon7968 06:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * That was easy. Harder will be finding and fixing all the links to other people with similar names, links to dab pages, and redlinks to people whose articles have different names than the one they are listed under here. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:30, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks but I wonder how you managed to do it. I suppose there is some option in some text editor where it is possible to search-and-replace from the start and end of a word. What software it is? Solomon7968 06:36, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Search-and-replace newline with ]],newlineDavid Eppstein (talk) 06:45, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Googling reveals TextWrangler is available only for the Macintosh. What for us Windows folks? How I made this list is first scrapping the entire list from the ACM database then manually going the "Surname, Name" list, googling to get a non-wiki variant of the title of the fellow to create as many redirects as possible, and then manually wikilinking the first slot. Did I waste any time, precisely is it possible to scrap the citation field (say with some option such as "delete everything after "For"") and change from "Surname, Name" to "Name Surname". Solomon7968 07:01, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Probably using regular expressions. Or you could write a quick Python script. I don't know how to do that using just textual search and replace. BTW, when you wrote "interested" in your first note you could as easily have written conflict-of-interested... —David Eppstein (talk) 07:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, I think I've removed all the wrong links and added all the missing links to people with articles under different titles. There are still a lot of links that go through redirects but I don't see a lot of urgency in cleaning those up. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:40, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I believe you solved the links to dab pages with Dab solver. Why isn't there something similar "Redirect solver" to bypass redirects? Solomon7968 04:03, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Not dab solver. I use User:Anomie/linkclassifier.js, which colors dabs, redirects, and under-deletion-review links in distinctive colors. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:50, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Blog post
, would you be able to write a new blog post on your blog detailing the musical skills of the Computer scientists listed here? Looking around I found out this Harvard Crimson article on Noam D. Elkies (see particularly the quote by Harvard Math Department Chair Arthur M. Jaffe). There ought to be a similarly informative article on "Music + CS" and you might very well be the best person to write it. Solomon7968 04:17, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought Elkies was more known for his chess puzzling skills? But he's a mathematician much more than a computer scientist. I'll consider it, but probably not; I have a lot of respect for people who are good musicians, but not a lot of personal interest in musicianship, and to put something on my blog I generally have to be personally interested in it (I am my own target audience). —David Eppstein (talk) 04:23, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, then what about foreign language skills? I suppose such a post would be of interest to folks in the OCR industry (non Latin script languages, I mean) and to ethnic/linguistic minority groups in the CS academia. Solomon7968 04:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


 * No one considers Elkies a computer scientist, he least of all, I would be quite confident.  E Eng  08:59, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Translation
Ping and, if any of you are willing to do the (easy) job of translating this article to French and German respectively. Solomon7968 16:31, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, I am not very excited by the job, but maybe someone else is, I will forward the message on the computer science project in French. --Roll-Morton (talk) 11:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't want to sound rude but it would probably have taken the same time to create the article than while writing this post. Whatever, ping, , , , if any of you are willing to do the job and  for translation to Portuguese. Solomon7968 15:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I will do that this afternoon. There is a risk for such a List on WPfr to be deleted soon, but let's try... --Cbyd (talk) 15:54, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅--Cbyd (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Wikiquote
, would you be able to find source/quote(s) for university affiliation of the fellows listed here? I guess it is approximately proportional to the data in List of Turing Award laureates by university affiliation. The idea is to create a Wikiquote page similar to what I have done in q:Shiraz Minwalla (where he talks about the String theory work done in Indian institutions) and then we can create Wikiquote pages for the (predominantly US) institutions. Same request for ICM speakers too, I guess Princeton tops the chart here. The institution quote pages can be modeled after the Princeton article I created. Solomon7968 15:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * It changes. Their affiliation now, or when they won? Also a fair fraction of them have industry affiliations. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:46, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Wikiquote coverage of companies is very shallow. There is no article for IBM for instance. If you consider our article IBM Research, someone coming from a mathematics background (with exposure to the P = NP problem) may be baffled what research is being carried out in the twelve "labs" of the said organization. One solution in my mind is to create its Wikiquote page and then add quotes on its budget, company hierarchy and innovations. Solomon7968 02:23, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Similar article
de:Liste der Fellows des Computer History Museum needs to be translated from German as soon as possible. @DE maintains de:Benutzer:Drahreg01/Wissenschaftspreise/Kalender‎ which may also have other similar CS awards which we might be missing. Solomon7968 14:11, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Solomon7968 02:18, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 04:16, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

List of fellows of the Association for Computing Machinery → List of Fellows of the Association for Computing Machinery – Proper capitalization per https://awards.acm.org/fellows. Frostly (talk) 02:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Leaning oppose – Is this not a common noun like professor? Graham (talk) 04:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It is both a common noun and a part of a proper noun phrase for a particular award. For instance (for a much more famous award) the word "prize" is a common English word, but yet the name of the Nobel Prize is "Nobel Prize", with capitals on both of its words. The people who win some prize are prizewinners (a common English word) but if we named it that way our list would be titled List of Nobel Prize winners (actually a redirect) because in that case it is part of the name of the prize. The words "medal" and "honor" are common English words, but yet the name of the Medal of Honor is capitalized, even when in plural: "Medals of Honor". The word "professor" is a common English word, but yet it appears capitalized when part of a proper noun phrase like Sedleian Professor of Natural Philosophy.
 * One issue is that Frostly's link only shows the short name of this award, "ACM Fellow". But one can find the longer name "Fellow of the Association for Computing Machinery" on other pages controlled by the association such as . The people who win the ACM Fellow award are fellows (in the common English sense of the word) of the society, but they are also Fellows of the Association for Computing Machinery (using the name of the award rather than the name of the society). The fact that there is both a longer name and a shorter name is also not contradictory to other practice on Wikipedia; consider for example the person with the longer name Ellas Otha Bates and the shorter name Bo Diddley.
 * Incidentally, there are other much lesser awards given by ACM that it calls "fellowships", such as the ACM History Committee Fellowship (a small research grant) or the ACM-IEEE CS George Michael Memorial HPC Fellowships (an award to promising graduate students). By using "Fellow" in capitals as part of the name of the award rather than "fellow" in lowercase as someone who meets the common English definition of the word we avoid ambiguity. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * As I suspect you already know but others here do not, the words "fellow" and "fellowship" each have two different meanings. A fellowship can be a scholarship or a research grant, and a fellow can be the recipient of such a grant. Such grant programs are usually pre-Ph.D. or early post-doctoral programs. That's not what this article is about. In the second meaning, a fellow can be a person recognized as a highly distinguished member of an organization or profession, and this designation is typically not received until the mid-to-late phase of someone's career and is only conferred to a very small percentage of the members of a society or profession (maybe that's a little different in medicine, where being a fellow seems more common, but this article isn't about medicine). That recognition does not typically involve an honorarium – usually just a plaque or certificate, but it's usually considered a high honor. That second meaning is the one that applies here. For the second meaning, the word "fellowship" is rarely used. For the first meaning, the common way to refer to the award is as "a fellowship", and it is less common to refer to the recipient as "a fellow" (although the term is sometimes used and is not incorrect). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per my long comment above. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose – We've been around this a few times for different orgs in recent years, including discussion between myself and David Eppstein (we are both fellows of the ACM and of different professional orgs, by the way). The orgs cap these for significance, but that doesn't make them proper names.  Caps are common in sources, but nowhere near "consistent", which is the criterion in MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 11:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Fellow is a title of honor. One becomes a fellow of the ACM or the Royal Society and one can also become a member or corresponding member of some similar organizations and we do not capitalize those. It is similar to becoming a professor at a university. It is an honor, but is not the proper name of a prize. It is not an endowed chair, which would be a proper noun; Sedleian Professor of Natural Philosophy is properly capitalized, but the holder of that chair is still called a professor rather than a Professor. It could be that an ACM Fellowship is a proper noun if they use it that way. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨ 12:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. It is both the English word for the general class of honors, and part of the proper name of this particular honor. They do use it that way. Both "ACM Fellow" and "Fellow of the Association for Computing Machinery" are names that they use for the honor. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I do not doubt that "They do use it that way", but here we follow our manual of style. If I were writing for the ACM, I would follow their style, but here we follow our style which does not capitalize for emphasis. Similarly every university I've been associated with refers to itself as "the University", but Wikipedia does not. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨ 00:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No style guide I know of gives permission to de-capitalize proper noun phrases. And ACM is actually not known for unnecessary capitalization in their house style; for instance, they write "Proceedings of the twelfth annual ACM symposium on Theory of computing" for the title of one of their conference proceedings, where most people would write "Proceedings of the Twelfth Annual ACM Symposium on Theory of Computing" (title case because it is the title of a book). —David Eppstein (talk) 03:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It's amazing that they didn't at least capitalize "computing" in that, as the name of the symposium, and perhaps also the word "symposium" itself (after all, it's abbreviated "STOC"). Not so much "twelfth" (for which I would be tempted to use "12th") and "annual" (which I would be tempted to just omit). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per David Eppstein. That's what the name of the thing is, dang it. Trying to drink from the ngram firehose is completely beside the point, since Google Books scans anything and everything, including piles of sources that we would not consider reliable for any other purpose. The point above making the comparison to endowed chairs is misleading; if we had a list of the people in question, we'd call it List of Sedleian Professors of Natural Philosophy, with Professor capitalized, just like Fellow should be here. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 16:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose: The fact the the word is plural in this title makes this even easer. In this title, "fellows of the [Name of Organization]" is clearly a class identifier and thus a common noun. We don't even use a capital letter for the List of presidents of the United States or similar lists. We also would/should not capitalize it for the hypothetical List of Sedleian professors of Natural Philosophy. Note that "Professor" is singular in Sedleian Professor of Natural Philosophy, Savilian Professor of Astronomy, Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, and Regius Professor of Divinity. It is lowercase in Lists of IEEE fellows, List of fellows of IEEE Computer Society, List of fellows of the Australian Academy of Science, List of fellows of the Royal Society, List of fellows of the American Statistical Association, List of fellows of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering, List of fellows of the International Society for Computational Biology, List of fellows of the Royal Society of Arts, List of fellows of the Society of Antiquaries of London, List of fellows of the Econometric Society, and similar article titles (there are a few outliers that should be cleaned up, but there is clear and consistent general pattern). MOS:JOBTITLES rules this one out in two different ways: 1) it's not a title for one specific entity – there are many fellows of the ACM, and 2) it's plural. One would likely capitalize it on a résumé, but résumés are promotional, and Wikipedia is not. Capitalizing it would be MOS:SIGNIFCAPS, which Wikipedia does not do. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * "Sadleian" is not an adjective. It does not stand alone. It only occurs as part of a proper noun phrase, "Sadleian Professor" (a person with that title) or "Sadleian Professorship" (the title itself). So your supposed capitalization "List of Sedleian professors of Natural Philosophy" is not only wrong, it is ungrammatical. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I never discussed whether "Sadleian" is an adjective, and I don't see that as very fundamental here (although it does seems to be an adjective, derived from the surname Sedley); on the contrary, I talked about whether the term "Sadleian [P/p]rofessors" is plural. I don't see anything ungrammatical about that title involving the plural term "Sadleian professors", although it is a hypothetical example and thus it doesn't matter so much – it's just a hypothetical plural example. If it was about "Albert Einstein professors of [something]", I think it would be the same situation, as long as it is plural. You may have missed where I mentioned that I think it is important that the term in this article title is  plural. MOS:JOBTITLES talks about whether a term is plural or not, and that is what I was discussing. I just did a search and unfortunately I did not find any titles on Wikipedia of the form "List of [something] [P/p]rofessors of [whatever], with the word "[P/p]rofessors" being plural, but I believe that if such an article title existed, the fact that "[P/p]rofessors" is plural would matter. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Bringing in plurality doesn't seem relevant to me here; MOS:JOBTITLES is about a different kind of position than Fellowship in a learned society. It's like saying we should say Nobel Prize in Physics and Nobel Prize in Chemistry but Nobel prizes in Physics and Chemistry, or that we should lowercase the B in the phrase "two out of four Beatles". XOR&#39;easter (talk) 16:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Not so for the Beatles. "The Beatles" / "Beatles" is the proper name of a band, so it should be capped. These are off-subject examples anyway. But the pluralization distinction in MOS:JOBTITLES applies, and there is also a strong general pattern of lowercase in similar titles, even if we don't look at things like List of presidents of the United States. There are lots of other "List of fellows of X" titles on Wikipedia, and nearly all of them are lowercase (all but five that I could find). If we had a "List of Nobel [P/p]rizes", it should use "prizes", not "Prizes". We do have a lot of articles like "List of Nobel laureates", and they use lowercase for "laureates". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding where I said "I did not find any titles on Wikipedia of the form "List of [something] [P/p]rofessors of [whatever], with the word "[P/p]rofessors" being plural"; FWIW, please note that I have since found List of honorary professors of Moscow State University and List of University Professors at Harvard University. I don't think that's very valuable information, but I wanted to correct the record. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose Per MOS:JOBTITLES and many similar discussions directly analogous to this move. We capitalise President of the United States but not presidents of the United States because the plural is not the formal title. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:45, 10 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment – Just as another point of reference, it may be worth looking at the guidance provided by the The Chicago Manual of Style (while recognizing that it is not fully binding on Wikipedia's style):
 * Provided I am reading it correctly, I think this would mean that – were one to follow Chicago – one would refer to the Fellowship of the Association for Computing Machinery (if that were a term that is actually used) but to fellows of the Association for Computing Machinery or a fellow of the Association for Computing Machinery (unless it is immediately following a personal name as a title). Graham (talk) 23:22, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
 * In fact the name that is used by the ACM for this award is "Fellow of the Association for Computing Machinery", not "Fellowship of the Association for Computing Machinery". The phrase "Fellowship of the Association for Computing Machinery" does not appear anywhere on the ACM website. So you are arguing from a false antecedent. If pigs could fly, we should capitalize things aLtErNaTiNgLy. But they don't, so this says nothing about how we should actually capitalize. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:19, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * this says nothing about how we should actually capitalize. Really? Then what do you understand section 10.22 (which refers specifically to "fellow of the American Institute of Architects" and "fellow of the Royal Society"), taken into conjunction with the general advice in found in sections 8.19 and 8.28–8.29, to say? The latter three sections are as follows:
 * Graham (talk) 04:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * this says nothing about how we should actually capitalize. Really? Then what do you understand section 10.22 (which refers specifically to "fellow of the American Institute of Architects" and "fellow of the Royal Society"), taken into conjunction with the general advice in found in sections 8.19 and 8.28–8.29, to say? The latter three sections are as follows:
 * Graham (talk) 04:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Please see my comment above about the different meanings of the words. "Fellow of the ACM" is not like a Guggenheim Fellowship (i.e., it is not a grant), and one would not ordinarily refer "Fellowship of the ACM" (although as David Eppstein noted, it might be possible to receive a fellowship from the ACM, that's not what this article is about). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's a fair distinction. And you're right that the use of the phrase "Fellowship of the ACM" to refer to membership of a learned society would be atypical. Given that distinction, I think it's fair to suggest that under Chicago, if one were to use the word fellowship in this context (which, again, wouldn't be terribly common), one would probably lowercase that too. Graham (talk) 04:01, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Comment: Regarding my comment above saying "there are a few outliers that should be cleaned up, but there is clear and consistent general pattern", I have submitted an RM at Talk:List of Fellows of the British Academy elected in the 2020s for the five articles I found that have titles of the form "List of Fellows of [something]". I think there are only five of them (and I found 302 of the form "List of fellows of [something]"). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:47, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose—please, it's plural. Tony (talk)  06:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not consistently capitalized by RS, and when treated as a plural classifier like this, it is by definition a common-noun phrase not a proper-noun phrase. E.g., someone might write, "I first attended Harvard University, then went to Oxford University, and learned much at both universities." Until about the middle of the 20th century it was common to write "both Universities", but this is no longer the case and it absolutely is not normal practice on Wikipedia. I think mostly what's happened here is that people are confused by the convention of capitalizing such things when they occur with a name: "J. Charles Thompson, Fellow of the Scottish Tartans Society"; plus the influence of promotional/signification capitalization (MOS:SIGCAPS) tendencies of the primary sources that issue such fellowships ("At our Awards Banquet at our Headquarters next week, the Foundation will be welcoming three new Fellows.") This absolutely is not WP style, either, nor that of much of anyone not directly connected with the organization in question.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So it is your position that the plural of "Nobel Prize" is "Nobel prizes" ?? —David Eppstein (talk) 05:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: At this point I suggest that the outcome of this discussion is clear and that it be declared closed without action. Opposition has been running about 2:1 or more and the discussion has stalled. No substantial new supportive comments have been made for more than ten days. Also, the RM at Talk:List of Fellows of the British Academy elected in the 2020s has been closed with an agreement to lowercase "Fellows" in the five articles listed in that one. If this RM were to succeed, this would be the only outlier among all articles of this form on Wikipedia. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)