Talk:Telengard

Fate/Mythos/Torchlight and Travis Baldree removed?
Why was the short paragraph referencing the connection between Telengard and Travis Baldree, creator of the "Telengard for Windows" port (authorized by Daniel Lawrence) as well as Fate, Mythos and Torchlight, a closely knit family of game designs inspired by Telengard (sharing many features), removed? 50.54.236.164 (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

C64
It was definitely better on the Commodore 64; It didn't translate all that well to the Apple II+, which was the version I owned. This article needs to be cleaned up some, though. It's too "chatty", there shouldn't be any "I" pronouns like this. Look at some of the other historical videogame articles on Wikipedia and model this one after those... -- JR


 * Man, is that ever true! I played it on my friend's Commodore 64, and was very impressed, so I bought the Apple II version, and all the graphics had been replaced with ascii text crap.  It was lame.


 * On a more serious note, does anyone have any idea what computer system this game was written on? It was apparently first authored in 1976, which really makes me wonder just what sort of a machine this thing was first designed for.  That would be a great factoid for the article. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:57, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Apparently, he wrote it on a Commodore PET, which would be just about the only machine available around that time, it seems. Although the opener of the article states it was writen in '76, while later on (where the PET is referenced), it gives the year as 1978. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The Commodore PET didn't come out until 1977, so I think the distinction is that it was written on a Purdue University mainframe terminal back in '76, and re-written in BASIC, on a PET, in '78. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Daniel Lawrence
While some of the original authors of the dnd game may have legitimate gripes with Daniel Lawrence, the Telengard article is not the place for it. Telengard is a game, not a person. Only the game should be discussed here. The history of Daniel Lawrence, for example, is not the history of Telengard. Since Daniel Lawrence does not have a Wiki article of his own, perhaps someone should create one? Then the issues, if any, can be historically documented (hopefully in balance and hopefully with better sources than unverifiable e-mails and original research items). Sign0stand (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit: Some of you may be interested to know that Dan passed away suddenly last week at the age of 52. His memorial service, held on Sunday, 6-13-2010, was extremely well-attended (his family was seriously outnumbered by friends and fellow gamers), with close to two dozen people speaking in his honor. Dan's wishes in this matter were that he should be honored with a party in the style of the ones he hosted every Saturday in his home for many years; that party is being planned for sometime in September. 98.222.199.25 (talk) 14:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)Heather

Suggestion
How about a "controversy" section? Be warned that it should not be longer than the article! If you cannot keep the controversy section to a couple of medium sized sentences, it will probably be removed or highly altered. Long winded and unreferenced information about what Lawrence did or did not do outside of the game is of no interest to anyone wanting to learn about Telengard, so it should be brief and most importantly from reliable 3rd party sources. Sign0stand (talk) 18:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Procedurally generated levels?
This article states that levels are created in some procedural manner. I've been playing the game since its C64 release--and it's still on my desktop--and ventured down many levels, and they always have the same layout. In fact I count on that. Anyway, why the discrepancy? (You can play Telengard online here and see for yourself http://www.classicdosgames.com/online/telen.html) Thanks! 50.54.236.164 (talk) 01:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Update: I think what is meant by procedural is just that, but not in the usual sense we associate with roguelikes, that generate new and different levels each time one is replayed. Telengard's levels, which were generated/chosen during the game's design, are stored as seed numbers. Since the seed numbers don't change, each level is the same each time the game is played. 50.54.236.164 (talk) 23:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Good article effort
I'll work in the next 48 hours to find citations for the passages with removed citations or remove the material. I'll defer to Czar on what needs to be accomplished for the article to achieve GA status. Airborne84 (talk) 17:39, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * If you can help me dig around for print sources that would have coverage/reviews of the game, I can go about getting scans czar ♔   17:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Happy to help. Are you talking about print journals that are archived online? I can certainly do that. I don't have access to physical print journals/magazines. And what do you mean by scans? Thanks! Airborne84 (talk) 18:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, I think I see. I'll look to see what type of magazine besides Computer Gaming World might possibly have run an article or review on Telengard. I'm also running through the list of sources on WP:VG/RS that have been identified as reliable sources and checking their websites for more coverage. As side note, would this web page at www.allgame.com about Telengard be considered a reliable source? The website is listed under WP:VG/RS, Reliable Sources, General, but I don't know who Earl Green is. If the text is considered a blog and not reliable, perhaps the ratings of 4/5 stars for the Apple II and C64/128 can be used at a minimum. However, if the source meets WP:RS, the last sentence may be of use in the article: "An exceedingly simple and yet very addictive game." Airborne84 (talk) 19:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * According to his profile, Earl Green appears to meet the criterion for a reliable source as the author as well as the website itself as publisher. My thoughts are that it is OK for use. Please advise if you think otherwise. Airborne84 (talk) 19:16, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep, as long as the AllGame content isn't user-contributed, it's fair game. I found a bunch of articles, but I need to read over what parts are most usable. Our top priority right now is critical reception (reviews) and reducing the size of the gameplay section (see WP:VGSCOPE for the types of gameplay minutiae we try to leave out) czar ♔   20:01, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * OK. On a side note, a previous GA review here mentioned fair use images. I am unclear what the issue is with them since they all have fair use rationale. Airborne84 (talk) 20:38, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Checking out for a while. Please make whatever changes you think are needed. Happy writing!! Airborne84 (talk) 21:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The review complained that there were too many fair use images—we try to keep them to a minimum because free use is one of Wikipedia's core tenets. The ones that are plain text are actually public domain, but I don't see them to be particularly helpful anyway, so might be better to delete them. Maybe we'll add an image of Lawrence instead? czar ♔   21:21, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * , okay: I spent an inordinate amount of time on this today, but I think it's ready for GAN. Before I do so, I wanted to run it past you first. I deleted a lot of the Gameplay content since it went into very specific minutiae about the game that isn't quite useful for an encyclopedic context—we just need the overview unless a detail is very important. (But typically the way this works is that if it's important, a secondary source has covered it and we shouldn't have to rely on the instruction manual.) Anyway, let me know and I'll put it through. czar ♔   00:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks! Looks nice. I would have had a challenge cutting it down to that since I added most of the material, so your efforts are appreciated!! One note to resolve is the sentence: "The game world is visualized by ASCII characters, such as slashes for stairs and dollar signs for treasure." Green is referring to the Apple II version only, as other versions (such as the C64/128, and IBM) have more advanced graphics. And the image to the left contradicts it since it shows "non-dollar-sign treasure". Perhaps we just add "in the Apple version" in the sentence, or add another note at the bottom to identify the version discussed? Finally, I don't mind putting an image of Lawrence in. But the only picture I've ever seen of him is the one in the "About Dan" source, which is pretty low quality and I don't know the legalities of using an image like that based on fair use. Did you have a different image in mind? Thanks again! Airborne84 (talk) 06:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I made the Apple fix—good find. Would you know who would be in control of Lawrence's estate and website? The "About Dan" image was the one I was thinking of, but it's a hard case that the image is vital to understanding this article (fair use requirements). If his estate would be willing to release the image under cc-by-sa or freer, we're golden. I can make the contact if you know whom to ask. czar ♔   13:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don't know who is managing Lawrence's estate. This page within the "About Dan" has some leads, but most of the links are dead and the ones that work don't lead to an immediate answer. I'm fine leaving an image out, since it would take some investigative work to obtain one. Would you like to list the article on GAN or should I? I don't mind making tweaks as needed during a GA review if you're moving on to other projects, but I'm fine either way. Thanks! Airborne84 (talk) 14:40, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * As a side note, thanks for showing me the ping tool. I don't edit very much at Wikipedia anymore, but I'll keep that in my kit bag anyway! Airborne84 (talk) 14:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No prob. It's up at GAN now czar ♔   15:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination

 * Did you know nominations/Telengard czar ♔   17:08, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Appelcline
In this diff, 68.57 asks whether Appelcline worked for Computer Gaming World. I think it was a typo from when Appelcline was first introduced to the article. Wanted to clarify. ? czar ♔   20:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Reviewing that, it was definitely an error on my part. I have no idea if Appelcline ever wrote for Computer Gaming World. That said, I will share what exactly is said in the book, so that you can judge the merits of it. Regarding early computer RPGS: "There was also ongoing development on other platforms, such as Daniel Lawrence’s DND (1977), which was written for the TOPS-10 operating system. All of these early games tended to feature characters killing monsters for experience points in dungeons. Surprisingly, some of them featured graphics, including wireframe drawings of dungeon corridors." Regarding Avalon Hill: "However, when they began to move into the RPG field in 1982, they also started considering computer roleplaying games (CRPGs). Telengard (1982) was actually one of the first CRPGs professionally produced by anyone; it was a D&D-derived game that had originally been programmed back in 1976 on a PDP-10." BOZ (talk) 00:41, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

More reviews
From http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/telengard/doc2.htm, I haven't found/added these sources yet: czar ♔   07:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Avalon Hill's Heroes Magazine, May 1984, Volume 1, Number 1
 * The Space Gamer Magazine, December 1982, Number 58
 * Creative Computing, Sept 1983, Volume 9, Number 9
 * Thanks! I'll look into them in the coming weeks and see what they can add! --Airborne84 (talk) 11:54, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The first article is reprinted in full text at http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/telengard/heroes.htm. It also notes at the bottom that Telengard was covered in the March 1984 issue of "Playboy" magazine: "[Lawrence's] efforts were praised in the "Diversions" column in the March issue of Playboy. 'Telengard is one of the most powerful examples of the challenging diversions your computer can offer these days.'" Airborne84 (talk) 10:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The third is hard to find, but the full text is at this URL: Telengard is at the bottom. http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n9/192_An_avalanche_from_Avalon_.php. Interestingly, it has a comparison between Telengard and Wizardry. Airborne84 (talk) 10:51, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Game Spells
The game spells are apparently not encyclopedic, at least under Wikipedia's current policies for games. However, it occurred to me that the chart of Telengard spells in the article text was the only place, web or print, that all the spells were listed together in one place. The game manual lists the first two levels only. There is a website that lists all the spells within the game code, so it is verifiable, but it is laborious to pull them all out.

In any case, I will list them here on the talk page in case they are ever of use in the future to a reader or otherwise. Airborne84 (talk) 10:35, 23 November 2014 (UTC)