User talk:Montanabw/Archive 7

Ridiculous
Just ridiculous. That's about all I can say about it.Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi lurker, glad to see you around!  Montanabw (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Just figured I'd chime in with some support.Intothatdarkness (talk) 21:03, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Somehow, it's pick on me day. Must be seasonal affective disorder for everyone in the Northern Hemisphere or something (including me).  I think I'm being hammered on at least three different fronts. Stay tuned, probably going to get more interesting yet. Sigh.  Montanabw (talk) 21:07, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Try being me for a day. ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 21:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that's sort of happening. Of course, if it sucks to be you even worse than it sucks to be me, maybe it's because I only called someone a jacka-- (even if I did it twice), whilst you went all the way to c--t... (don't you Brits say "whilst?" Is that correct use?)  (grinning, ducking and running...)   Montanabw (talk) 21:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * No we don't. "Whilst" is just about anachronistic as "gotten". And to be honest, you only score a 4.6 out of 10 at best with "jackass". Malleus Fatuorum 23:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * And some may wonder why I don't get more involved... Seems counterproductive. Some days I think this place needs Springer-style bouncers and a crowd to start yelling "Jimbo! Jimbo! Jimbo!" when the bell rings. But that may just be me.Intothatdarkness (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Yell something, anyway!  Montanabw (talk) 21:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe you should try something like "cranially constipated, verbally stunted festering mass of protoplasm." It may not be as elegant, but it should stump them long enough for you to make your escape.Intothatdarkness (talk) 21:26, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * LOL! But if I do it today, the mad templater above will probably template me again.  Horrors!   Montanabw (talk) 21:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * And here's the rub. You said "mad templater", a clear and unequivocal personal attack according to current Wikipedia policy. Malleus Fatuorum 23:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Jimbo! Jimbo! Jimbo! I need to stop trying to explain things.Intothatdarkness (talk) 23:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh! To be totally, absolutely, scrupulously fair – JLAN sent me a very nice, very supportive email when I was being put through the wringer.  Speaking as an OCD-er, even the most obsessive among us have another side to us.  Obsession's a bastard - both for those who have it, and for those who encounter it in others.  We had the obsession-problem with that recent "difference of opinion" with the IP editor pushing the ADO site.  Being obsessed by something is unpleasant; it interferes with our ability to view ourselves and those with whom we interact objectively.  However, there are huge benefits to having OCD and being a Wikipedian ;P OCD is an illness; we obsessives sometimes just can't help ourselves, despite relevant medication. 30mg of Seroxat daily helps - but it doesn't heal.  Pesky  ( talk  …stalk!) 13:55, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

WP Dross
If it's that good you could at least have sent me a Barnstar! Leaky Caldron  11:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It was a beautiful, sensitive, thoughtful piece of writing, and did much to account for the fact that I'm still here. (>**)> Hugz to you (much nicer than barnstars). Pesky  ( talk  …stalk!) 16:05, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


 * CHeck out your talk page!  Montanabw (talk) 19:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks both! Leaky  Caldron  15:09, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Azteca horse
Don't let it get to you. Count to 10, when you get to 9, start over. And then ...love as though you have never been hurt before. (Comes from a Hallmark card. But its still good advice)---Buster Seven   Talk  21:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Smartass! (grinning, ducking and running...)  Montanabw (talk) 21:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I read the conversations on the Talk page. Hang in there, try to stay calm and neutral, and hopefully things will play out much better for you and your fellow editors of horse-related articles. Good luck. Jessemv (talk) 21:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm past neutrality, this is the 5th or 6th horse breed article this person has attempted to derail at GA, FA or Main page appearance time.  I'd find it helpful if my TPS-ers would look at the issue that made me request the lockdown (which locked the wrong version with the stupid chart, but oh well) and the latest round of his proposed stuff that may or may not be in line with GA criteria (and reflects an ongoing pattern of this user to desire the creation of content forks) because I've seriously got to do some work at my RL today, not deal with this. I'm also tired of this editor picking on Dana, who doesn't deserve this.  Montanabw (talk) 21:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * This is precisely the kind of thing that I consider to be uncivil and disruptive, an example of what we all have to face on an almost daily basis. But there seems to be no way of dealing with it unless you can somehow provoke this editor into writing a naughty word. Malleus Fatuorum 22:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Concur. From my Wiki-lurking I've decided that one the things that really keeps me from contributing in a major article way are people who behave in this way. That and the folks who insist on inventing some sort of "Wiki-standard" for existing disciplines and then insisting that the existing standards are somehow "wrong" because they don't conform to the invented Wiki-standard. The debate on using "hands" for measuring horse height is just one example of this as far as I'm concerned. While it may be a fascinating behavior study from a social science point of view, it's very counterproductive and disheartening from a normal view.Intothatdarkness (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, and this time, the tendentious editor managed to provoke me, dang! (I think -- is jackass a naughty word, Malleus?  I took it back just in case it was...)  You guys are champs, all.  Just knowing that the good folks outnumber the people we want to describe with naughty words is heartening.  Those who wonder why the top importance articles rarely are taken to GA or FA need only look at this stuff.   Montanabw (talk) 15:57, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Laminitis x-ray
I put the original image back through photoshop and cranked the contrast down. The gray bar (radiopaque marker) is actually contacting the outside of the hoof (faint outline of hoof wall) and looks like it is in the film and not put there later. It looks so much worse than the nice digital radiographs that you linked because its an old, extreme close-up, cropped radiograph with high technique (really burned out, contrasty rad with loss of soft tissue detail) made with film. It was probably made with one of the old portable units and the maker only had one film plate on the truck :) There's not much more I can do with it, and I'll try to find a better one. Froggerlaura (talk) 01:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds like best we can with what we've got. Wonder if the old X-ray I have could pass muster here?  The vet who took it has passed away, I think I must be its owner now... I have a newer one, would need to vet who took it to give permission, I think...  Montanabw (talk) 18:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * This is addressed in Commons. Evidently two key questions are (1) are x-rays creative enough to be protected by copyright, and, if so, (2) are they works for hire, so that they would belong to whomever paid for them rather than the radiologist.--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Home of Peace Cemetery (Helena, Montana)
I started this article. Thought you may want to help out. Pumpkin Sky  talk  15:36, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Is the total size of the property, cemetery, undeveloped land, and practice field 5 or 50 acres? I found both listed. perhaps the cemetery by itself is 5 acres. Pumpkin Sky   talk  17:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Just made this: Template:Did you know nominations/Dearborn River High Bridge too (has a nice photo). Pumpkin Sky  talk  00:43, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure on size, whatever National Register says is probably the best you have. I made some edits on one of the others Montanabw (talk) 18:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Kluge House DYK
See response there. Pumpkin Sky  talk  12:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

a piccie
Hi Montana, I came across some pictures on Commons that I thought you might like to see, enjoy them and maybe you know of a better category for them than I could find.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  18:54, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Cool! I added that one to combined driving, good categorization. Maybe give Pitke a heads up, s/he seems to be the god of horse photo categorization over at commons. Montanabw (talk) 16:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks everyone!
Thanks to everyone who weighted in on the Helena Train Wreck and everything else! I do apologize to anyone who was at the receiving end of any snark I had left over from my previous round of editing disputes that may have bled over into these discussions! You folks were a great bunch of people to work with, exhibited and assumed good faith at every step of the way and in general have helped me get back some faith in wikidom! Montanabw (talk) 16:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You are a great editor, the Wikipedian I trust most on all things equine. I remember how kind you were to me as a newcomer a few years ago, even while disagreeing with an addition I attempted.  I look forward to many such interactions in the future.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  23:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey! Ya grew up good!   Montanabw (talk) 23:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Reference to Australian saddles as Poley's
The reference to australian saddle as poleys is from the livestock industry, cattle are either horned ( with horns) or poley (without horns). American saddles have roping horns, Australians do not use ropes to catch cattle, (except rodeo), so our saddle's are referred to as Poley stock saddles, the following article gives a short history of the evolution of theAustralian Stock poley. Beaufort4352 (talk) 06:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)Kelly Logan, Beaufort4352.


 * Removed copyrighted material, can be viewed here. Dreadstar ☥   06:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Makes sense, always wondered what was up with that. Good info. Thanks!  Montanabw (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Yogo/Voynick verification
Finished my ref verification check with Voynick and made a few mostly minor page # changes to the article plus removed a couple of individual refs as failed verification. There are a few cases of close wording that I haven't done anything with except noted on my analysis page. Maybe my analysis work page should be moved to talk:Yogo, will do if you think it needed. Vsmith (talk) 01:35, 6 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe an archive off the talk page would be best. If you could pop hidden text in the article that says something like "MTBW review" or something equally cryptic, that will give me a quick way to rephrase the close stuff that needs fixing.   Montanabw (talk) 18:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed one problem sentence and added hidden comments for four other problem bits - your recent activity there spurred me into action :) Vsmith (talk) 00:18, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Re; the Tiffany iris broach: Voynick p.204 states the stones of the broach were "mined by Charles Gadson's men in the early 1900s, were sold to Tiffany by the New Mine Sapphire Syndicate." And the broach was sold by Tiffany in 1909. That kinda rules out the 1900 silver. And the 1904 bronze was for "uncut Yogo sapphires" (p.93). So it doesn't seem the broach won either medal. Vsmith (talk) 02:58, 10 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Good to know, thanks for the info!  Montanabw (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Check this out
This is obviously a flagrantly marked palomino animal. So? He's also a Jockey Club registered Thoroughbred. Needless to say, I nearly wet myself when spotting this on Flickr ;)


 * Sato
 * sire Puchilingui home (bottom), more than 50% white
 * dam Springtime Girl (pedigree)
 * damsire Milkie

--Pitke (talk) 15:19, 6 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Puchilingui is actually a progenitor of the W5 line of dominant white -- he's not, but some of his get are. While the above horse sort of looks Palomino and his owners claim he is, I see no evidence for a genetic test, and I think he is just as easily a flaxen chestnut sabino, personally. (But I won't argue with his owners). However, his owners are "palomino crazy," as clear as can be they have either a sabino-white or a dominant white there that they advertise as a (genetically impossible) "all white palomino." And then a filly they advertise as "cremello and maximum sabino." Well, maybe if they tested, this is possible a horse could carry both genes, but I really wonder. I'll grant the one filly toward the bottom of the page is clearly a palomino, but they have two other ones there that I suspect are also just a flaxen chestnut. Let's look at how light a chestnut can be: this horse is a purebred Arabian with a flaxen mane and tail. Arabians never carry the cream gene, but one of the US Palomino "registries" accept Arabs that are flaxen chestnuts, so these people advertise their horse as a genetically impossible "palomino." (We also have issues with people here thinking Haflingers are "palomino" when that gene does not exist in that breed, either). Montanabw (talk) 18:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)


 * As far as I understand, maternal grandsire Milkie has produced (linebred) cremello offspring, therefore being a Cream carrier and a genuine palomino. I agree that the sabino deal may well have to do with DW more than actual sabino. In any case, this is a striking and unusual TB. Pitke (talk) 19:37, 7 February 2012 (UTC)


 * True that. I have a certain level of frustration with color breeders in general, note the ad saying something like one of these horses not having a career on the track, or a penchant for racing, or whatever -- Come on!  These are Thoroughbreds!  They either run or jump; if they do neither, then what ARE they good for?  Standing around and looking cool?  (sigh)  My favorite blog, fuglyhorseoftheday, coined a word for horses bred for color over performance or conformation: "Hideozygous."  LOL!  That doesn't mean that horses of unusual color cannot also have good conformation, and I do think there is probably value in preserving some of the rare color genes, (and full disclosure:  I currently own a palomino) but I fret a lot about injecting color genes into breeds that have other strengths -- I am quite convinced that both the frame overo and the cream genes were inserted into the TB genome by someone who snuck a quarter horse into the herd, though this would be impossible to prove, as it probably happened in the 50s or 60s.  But to the best of my knowledge, the only color that seems to pop up in breeds as a spontaneous mutation is dominant white.   Montanabw (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Aluminium horseshoes
Having seen your revert, whilst i'm normally in favour of consistency within articles, in this case i am in favour of aluminium, even out of style for the article. This is because WP uses the IUPAC definitions, and in this case it is the international spelling. Having done some reading, I believe that the US societies now also use aluminium as their official spelling, so I think maybe we should make the change. OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 18:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Whatever the wiki-gods have decreed this week, who am I, a mere mortal, to question their collective wisdom? (grin) Or, where does aluminum direct or redirect to at the moment? I do not care deeply about the issue, I favor consistency in spelling, and I prefer to avoid unnecessary extra vowels, (grin) but if there is an official exception, no skin off my nose. Whatever works.   Montanabw (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The spelling should be actively changed to "ium" on chemistry-related articles per Naming conventions (chemistry), but changing it in article otherwise written with US usage would normally be inappropriate per the usual ENGVAR policy.  Acroterion   (talk)   18:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I won't be working up a sweat either way. But anyone now want to go look at the proposal to change mule from US to UK English?  Now there is a place where we need some espertise.  Montanabw (talk) 18:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Facepalm. No. Seriously. Facepalm.Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:50, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Feel free to comment over there. I just did, essentially sharing your sentiment.  Personaly I must remember that I do have a life in other areas and not to argue with people who resemble the topic of the articles in question lest I be confused with the same.   Montanabw (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I went for the response on Mule simply because it seemed more poetic.Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Hot walker
Somebody just created a silly article on this subject, but it occurs to me that it could easily be recast to its correct definition, assuming something more than a dictionary definition can exist. However, I completely lack sources.  Acroterion   (talk)   21:58, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

On it, may have to just fix the errors and find sources later, but I can guarantee you that what I write can be sourced, possibly with a bit of rewording, but can at least fix an immediate crisis. Montanabw (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, not really a crisis, but it's way better than the original nonsense - thanks.  Acroterion   (talk)   22:25, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Talk page stalkers -- alert!
Too all my TPS'ers, be aware that I have now filed an ANI on Justlettersandnumbers, due to his ongoing harassment of Dana boomer. Please take note of the discussion here: ANI. This probably needs more than an ANI, but an ANI is all I have the gumption for. I encourage Dana's friends and supporters to weigh in. This isn't about me or my interactions with JLAN, it's about Dana, who is one of the very nicest editors on wikipedia and who doesn't deserve to be stalked and harassed every time she takes an article to GA or FA. Montanabw (talk) 21:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Montanabw. I've just commented on the ANI, and I thought I'd wander over here and have a little chat. I think it would be best if you did your best to avoid Justlettersandnumbers, as you seem to have run out of good faith for him. Is that something you think you could do? I'm going post a similar message to him now. WormTT  &middot; &#32;(talk) 10:59, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've encountered this Justlettersandnumbers once or twice (mainly in passing on pages related to the military use of horses and typically in debates regarding changing the standard horse height measurement from hands to some "Wiki-standard" that he seems to fancy and isn't used by the outside, professional community), and found him to be less than constructive and unwilling to acknowledge that any position exists on an issue other than his own.Intothatdarkness (talk) 14:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I never thought myself as a talk page stalker, but if I am, please consider me a benevolent stalker. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I would be delighted to not deal with JLAN. I once tried to be nice to him, only to have my comments dismissed as "blithering twaddle" and other such remarks. I continued to attempt nice as much as I could, though it became increasingly difficult. Unfortunately, he makes choices to edit many of the same articles I have watchlisted, and also attacks other people besides myself.  By mutual consent, we agreed not to post on each other's talk pages about a month ago.  My concern is that he is now attacking one of wikipedia's finest editors and one who should not be driven from the project by such behavior.   Montanabw (talk) 21:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey Montanabw. Having read further, I've come up with some thoughts and suggestions on ANI. I doubt you'll get a much more useful response from that forum, but please do have a look and if you're not happy, let me know. WormTT  &middot; &#32;(talk) 14:59, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * FWIW I thought your response to WTT's suggestions to be quite reasonable and reasoned.Intothatdarkness (talk) 18:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks both of you!  Montanabw (talk) 18:57, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi
Hey there Montanabw, I noticed a conversation that you had with Sandy recently, and I wanted to note something. I'm not sure where I stand with her (SandyG) specifically, other than the fact that we both disagree on the merits of having PumpkinSky editing here (as you likely know, I agree with you on that point), and we did agree on a recent issue in regards to Malleus. The "Point of order" that I wanted to mention was the "cut and run" comments. While I can understand that "cut and run" view in regards to Rlevse (even thought I completely understand the why), I have to strongly disagree in the case of PumpkinSky. I am fully aware they are both the same person, BUT - Pumpkinsky NEVER "cut and run" - he posted his desire to be unblocked. He posted a whole ton of conditions he was willing to adhere to. He tried to respond to questions and criticizers at the drama thread. He asked to be allowed back, and he said he would work on whatever sourcing/plag/copy-vio issues people thought there were. It was simply that all those with a grudge toward him (be it the FA disagreements, or past sanctions he imposed as admin/arb) made sure there was not a consensus to unblock. I just wanted to mention that. No offense intended, just a note. — Ched :  ? 12:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I hear you. I was mostly thinking that bailing when you know you are in front of a kangaroo court is usually the wisest option. And trying to help Sandy understand my views, which doesn't seem to be happening. ;-)   Montanabw (talk) 16:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Diving Horses Edit
You completely removed my addition to the Diving Horses article yesterday, but from what I can tell it appears that your explanation is that "Facebook isn't a source and the recent controversy doesn't need undue weight. It's mentioned, it doesn't need to be half the article." To start, I am new, so I will defer to more experienced opinion. That said, I would like to understand better.

The FB page wasn't meant to be a source, but to point to the meeting place of the activists to lend credibility to discussing the effort that changed the path of having Diving Horses. Is that not permissible? Also, why would you eliminate the petition that garnered over 55,000 signatures on the issue?

The only reason I edited to begin with is the quote from the HSUS appears to be related to the effort that ended the notion of bringing back the Diving Horses. The Catanoso's called it off specifically because they received notice of the petition and the FB page members who would attend the Board Meeting. The HSUS quote is merely a response. The effort was not created by an organization, but by individuals, and I feel that should be a part of the history of the Diving Horses. It should be noted that individuals created the change to prevent the return.

I am not arguing for these things, simply trying to find out if/where my opinion has a place amidst the article. Thank you in advance.

KateBristow (talk) 20:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Basically, FB is not a source in most cases. A newspaper article stating that a facebook petition was responsible for a change might be.  So if you have a Reliable source that explains this, we could add that. BUT, given that this is simply a recent event, it cannot go on and on to the point it dominates the article (see WP:UNDUE) Maybe a sentence or so, though, not several paragraphs.  And be very careful not to copy the source verbatim.  Montanabw (talk) 01:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi! :o)
About this, and whether to include titles like "King" in wikilinks, I'm sure I remember someone on WP indicating that I shouldn't, but I'm enough of an old duffer to be remembering that wrong! ;o) Hunting around just now, I found this, which says "Avoid making links longer than necessary: write " president George Washington ", not " president George Washington "; and, "King Edward III" is linked that way later in the same sentence as King John, where handily Edward III's link doesn't need a pipe, just like George Washington. Thoughts? That's a genuine question, I'm keen to know what you think: historically(!) I've shown more interest in kings than horses and, apart from anything else, this question of linking is the kind of thing I dither over anyway, and now I'm likely to get into a dither-loop! :o) Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 11:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * My take is "do what doesn't look weird." I think it looks weird to have half a titled name linked.  I also have poor vision and it's easier for me to see a longer word or phrase when wikilinked, also easier to click the link with my laptop's touchpad; especially when, like John, the word is short.  So I tend to pipe link an entire name so that it jumps out easier. Put differently, I'd agree with MOS on Washington, but not on Edward III -- though I too would solve the problem and omit the word "King" in that particular instance (whereas John should be preceded with the title, as the word can have so many meanings...).  But it's not a moral issue, either way.  Montanabw (talk) 18:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, that makes sense – I'd tend to agree with doing what doesn't look weird! And, I see what you mean about why you'd deviate from MOS on this, I'll try to remember that. For now, I'll go and make "King Edward III" into just "Edward III", we know that we're already talking about kings there. Ta! :o) Nortonius (talk) 19:00, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello
Hello Montanabw. I have a question. I add External links to topic Wild horses and sombody deleted them. Meybe, it was you. I want to aks why. Backbreeding of new European Wild Horse is one of the most important event in Wild Horses theme. And links was to well known, respcect organization or interesting articles. I don´t unterestend, why they was deleted. Thank you for answer. Danny (talk)


 * I can't recall the specific edit, but my guess is probably adding incorrect or inaccurate information, or information without sourcing, or external links that were not relevant to the article for some reason.  Or maybe just really bad spelling, not sure.  The edit summary may have had a brief explanation.  But if you want to post on the talk page of the article in question, this can be further discussed there.   Montanabw (talk) 19:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Isn't this the edit Danny is referring to? Jesse V. (talk) 19:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah that. Yeah, two irrelevant links (we already have stuff on Tarpans in the article and the breeding back movement is mentioned already with the weight it deserves) The yahoo one best taken to the talk page as the cave painting stuff is a whole new thing that probably does need a new section, but needs to be linked to better sources. Random external links need to be inserted per WP:EL. But again, further discussion is best taken to the talk page of the article in question.  Montanabw (talk) 19:57, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Sssssshhhh, don't look now ...
... you're being followed ;P I commented on it. Pesky (talk ) 23:58, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I've taken your name in vain
over here. This guy has just got into a stew over at AN/I; he's a newbie, probably got a ton of good stuff to offer, and I've recommended you as a bloody good teacher for when the dust has settled a bit. He jumped head-first into a civility spat and got a load of people's backs up, but I can see his point and why it ended up like that. Adding: I've emailed him with a bit of damage-limitation advice, and given him an open invitation to my talk as well. What he needs is a couple of highly-experienced WikiTeachers, and he should get on OK. Pesky (talk ) 06:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

I did not know that ...
Germans liked CAPS.? Is that what makes them tired? Do "caps/CAPS" make everyone tired? These are the reasons that I read Wikipedia, I'm always learning something new. — Ched :  ? 13:20, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Noun forms in German tend toward Capitals, just skim de. wiki, even if you don't speak German, you will see the structure. And, as Sherlock Holmes once said, "only a German would so abuse his verbs." (grin)  Montanabw (talk) 04:11, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ahh, but they do come up with some wonderful constructions which don't quite have any simple synonyms in English, though. Losgelassenheit is one of my favourites. To illustrate, that link is basically an entire page of explaining what one word in German actually means!  Pesky  (talk ) 12:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Capitalization discussion
Tried to add something to the debate, but it appears to be a soap opera not an MOS discussion. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Well, a clear explanation of the MOS may not tone down the dramaz, but at least it will be on record... thanks.  Montanabw (talk) 18:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Please! Help! Argggh~
Me. Finnhorse. Simple English. Talk me out of this idea ó_ò Pitke (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2012 (UTC)


 * LOL -> OK, to talk you out of it try this:  Send me the URL when you have a draft, and I will "simplify" it!   Montanabw (talk) 18:51, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * [Snorts coffee out of nose] You fooooooool! I have the Alternative Theatre Trip tomorrow, or I'd offer to help. I may be offline for a couple of days, and no idea how sane I'll be when I get back on again!  Pesky  (talk ) 21:04, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Looking for some real help!
Hi!! I'm new to wikipedia and was wondering if you'ld be willing to help me with my first article. It's on the feral horses of Cumberland Island, Georgia. I currently have a lot of content I'ld like to add but first wanted some more help formatting. Thanks!!! Here's a link to the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_Island_Horses. Ruttles (talk) 21:43, 30 March 2012 (UTC) 3/30/2012


 * Hi Ruffles, I'll take a look at it and will probably make a few changes myself. I also have a lot of other horse people who watch my talk page who might also "trot" over there to help out.  For your own editing, I would recommend a couple of things.  First, take a look at Banker horse which is an article that is a "featured article" (highest quality on wikipedia) about some similar horse populations.  You may see some good fomatting examples and ideas for style, as well as examples of the sources that work best.  Thanks for asking for help and we will see what we can do!   Montanabw (talk) 21:51, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much!! My article looks so much b etter I'm going to be adding to it today but I really appreciate all your help so far! Thanks!!! Ruttles (talk) 15:09, 2 April 2012 (UTC) 4/2/2012


 * The single biggest thing you want to do now is to add wikilinks. See WP:LINK for details.  I can also help with those.   Montanabw (talk) 16:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi! I've added and edited my article extensively so now I'm wondering... How do I get it bumped up from a starter article. I feel like all the information on it is very complte at this point and it is super wikified! lol any tips? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruttles (talk • contribs) 16:03, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll take a peek at it. In the meantime, feel free to review the assessment criteria for start, C, B, GA, (etc.) articles at WP:EQUINE and feel free to join!   Montanabw (talk) 16:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Animal-assisted therapy
Aloha. I see you recently encountered Ronz & Co. at animal-assisted therapy. I would be happy to assist you over there if you need my help, as I realize you don't want to waste any time talking to a brick wall. Viriditas (talk) 01:11, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah. When outnumbered 3 to 1, strategic retreat or the dramah boards are your only real options.  Ronz was actually the least of the problem, there was another editor with a very strong POV that was where the brick wall problem hit.  So ,aybe take a look at the underlying dispute; that of how verifiable any claims should be and to what degree everything has to comply with a strict view of MEDRS.  I suspect everything removed  can be verified by peer-reviewed literature, but I haven't the energy to dig it all up right now.  However, if you think it's worth a shot, I'd be glad to at least be part of a team effort.   The book source that had everyone up in arms can be accessed at my local library, but I'm not going to bother if it won't matter... but if it seems to have potential, I'll try to check it out and provide verifiable material from it   Montanabw (talk) 01:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Give me a day or so to catch up and tie up some loose ends. I'll respond back here when I'm ready.  Thanks for being willing to give it another shot! :) :) Viriditas (talk) 01:20, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Any time you want to dive in, go for it. I have other projects ahead in the queue, but the tendentious wait for no one.  Montanabw (talk) 19:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh. Sorry, I got distracted, and I ended up reading about horse care for an hour, which led to me wondering why Zebras have never been domesticated. Viriditas (talk) 09:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

First things first, that merge tag (Animal-assisted interventions) is almost a year old. Do you support or oppose a merge? Viriditas (talk) 09:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Second question: should I work from the 12 December 2011 version? I'll upload it in my sandbox, just in case your answer is yes. Viriditas (talk) 09:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Third, could you look at User:Viriditas/sandbox and make any changes you require to the version I'm looking at? It would help me if you could also leave notes if you need to point anything out to me. Viriditas (talk) 09:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I'll peek at your sandbox, seems like a good approach. I haven't looked in any detail at the animal assisted interventions other than to notice that it is very small and probably mergeable, so no strong feelings in either direction. Montanabw (talk) 16:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you comment on this edit? While I'm sure there are representatives of the pet food industry who work closely with the Delta Society, it seems to be a bit of a stretch for Charles Danten to claim that the entire concept of animal-assisted therapy ‎is a corporate conspiracy.  What's your take on this?  My first thought was that Charles Danten was shilling for a major pharmaceutical company, because one of the reported outcomes of AAT is that patients use less medication. Of course, it's difficult to tell which conspiracy is crazier. :) Viriditas (talk) 09:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Pure hogwash. WP:FRINGE. "Ignore the verbal emanations, they are bullshit." Pet food companies may offer grant money to animal advocacy organizations (Science Diet supports the local Humane Society in my town) it doesn't mean they are part of the conspiracy -- I mean, animals eat, doing AAT doesn't mean they eat more pet food!    Montanabw (talk) 15:59, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Claims that AAT it is a corporate conspiracy are WP:FRINGE and should be treated appropriately (i.e no WP:DUE weight). IRWolfie- (talk) 09:37, 8 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Precisely, and sometimes complete hogwash no one has ever heard before doesn't even deserve a sentence. It's like green cheese.  Montanabw (talk) 16:55, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

ANI for User Ronz
Concerning a pattern of behavior not suitable for Wikipedia, by a user you've had dealings with, please list examples and join the discussion at Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents  D r e a m Focus  22:39, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Will swing by. Thanks for the heads up!   Montanabw (talk) 16:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for expressing your support for me in the User_talk:PumpkinSky thread and/or participating in the User_talk:PumpkinSky thread. Peace to everyone. Pumpkin Sky  talk  00:54, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Hooray! Sanity prevails!   Montanabw (talk) 16:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Passion and Easter
He was despised --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Time to enjoy extended Easter, eggs for peace, now on the Main page, with thanks for your support that made it possible, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:33, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Banker horse
Please see User_talk:Dana_boomer. Pumpkin Sky  talk  01:29, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Good cite. All these barrier island populations have inbreeding concerns, it's a worry throughout.  Montanabw (talk) 15:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Wiley access?
Hiya - I'm playing with New Forest pony ... I want this! Can you get it, pretty please? Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 08:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I haz nommed it for GA :D But I still want that paper, dear darling gorgeous MTBW ;P <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 16:32, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Will look. If I can't do it, Ealdgyth might be able to. Montanabw (talk) 16:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeeeeee-haaaaaaaaw! :D I got inspired ... I think I'll do Exmoor Pony next. Not until after NF pony has passed, though.  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 17:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ask Dana for help if you run into trouble, she has led most of the horse GAs on WP!  Montanabw (talk) 17:15, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Yogo sapphire
I've answered all the inline questions. Pls review for further improvement. Pumpkin Sky  talk  22:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)


 * OK. Have you found anyone who can work on the map thing? Montanabw (talk) 03:32, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm [coughs modestly] a genius-level tweaker-of-things in Photoshop, and can (when required) hand-draw maps and so on, if that's any help? <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 03:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Check out Yogo sapphire, PR said our map of the county outline was not good enough; so we need a free use image of a map of the more local area; at least someone who can put a dot where yogo gulch is at --- can't find anything not copyrighted. Look up yogo gulch, near Utica, Montana.  We're going for FA, so need something that's perfect in the eyes of the wikigods (sacrifices of appropriate offerings may be needed... oor maybe eye of newt or something :-P  )

Pic on left created from pic on right, f'rinstance :D <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 03:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Any good?
Um, Yeah! Montanabw (talk) 04:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hehe!

is your friend here! <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:49, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Very nice! Back in Feb I sent Fallschirmjaeger two files from which he was going to make a detailed map of the local mine area. Pesky--Are you up for something like that? Pumpkin Sky  talk  11:10, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I might very well be ;P It's worth a try ...  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:04, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Emailed you the two files, Pesky. Pumpkin Sky   talk  11:21, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow source!
Hey, look what I found! Possibly one of the most useful things about this is that it lists a heap of its own source material for each article, so you know where to look for the relevant papers :D It also has some good descriptions of various rare breeds, with sources listed for genetic info on them, and all kinds of kewl stuff. Enjoy! <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 06:18, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Nice! Thanks!   Montanabw (talk) 15:09, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

oh geesh ..
I absolutely HATE that "Messages" banner. I'm way to old for that kind of heart failure. :) — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 19:56, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a sign of wiki-burnout that the little orange banner raises your blood pressure instead of giving you happy feelings! LOL Montanabw (talk) 21:20, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not so much "burn out" Montana .. it's more "fed up". I've gotten to the point where I'm speaking my mind more and more.  I just don't care anymore if someone wants to call me on my posts.  I love "happy feelings" - but they are hard to find on wiki.  The lack of respect here is sad.  To be perfectly blunt about it ... I blame Jimbo.  He has ... NO ... wrong for me to go there. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ?  00:45, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Pesky-wolf smothers Montanabw, Ched, and all the TPSers with happy feelings. <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 12:16, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL Pesky! Yeah, the spittle of canine saliva may have a salubrious effect (wiping face, weak smile...)  Falling asleep in a chair with a kitten on one's lap can also be somewhat effective.   Montanabw (talk) 15:30, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Kittens! Cats are pretty awesome, I've always wanted one! Jesse V. (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't blink on that last one... :D Jesse V. (talk) 16:22, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Inevitably entertaining.  Montanabw (talk) 17:04, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * luvs my wolfie kisses. :-) — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 18:13, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hugz gampa! I like this video best; it's so hard to quit ...  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 18:24, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

your deletion of the edit to Tenn Walking Horse
My name is Keith Kibler. I am on the AERC membership committee, they are the ones that administrate endurance in the U.S. That is the source of the data you deleted. The horse I owned and rode was the recipient of the TWHBEA/AERC top endurance point award for the U.S. in 2010 and 2011. I received the awards at the annual convention each year in Reno Nevada. The first race at a 100 miles to be won by a TWH was the Lincoln Trails endurance race in Kinmundy IL in September of 2010. I am not sure if the race data can be viewed by you unless you are a member of AERC. but you can try here: http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/RideResults/rrReport.asp?distanceID=15517

I did not link our personal website, although I did mention that I owned the horse and rode the horse for the 100 mile record. Much of the tenn walker article was negative on the subject of soring, which I deplore and work against btw, so I thought that a positive approach to this breed that I love so much might be appropriate. Keith Kibler kwkibler@frontier.com http://shawneesunrisefarm.net/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keith Kibler (talk • contribs) 22:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * TWH's are very nice horses, with terrific dispositions and make great trail horses. However, any claims on endurance prowess have to not be self-promotional (so your own site would not be considered a reliable source) and come from neutral third party sources.  The issue is not that "a" TWH happened to win a 100-mile ride, or even several, the issue was promoting one's own self and animals (we can't do that on wiki, see WP:COI) and the claim that they are now a leading breed, (In the past, I think Appaloosas, Mustangs and Mules were next after Arabs/Part-Arabs) for which we need a neutral third party source. If you have something that has a breed ranking or something, I'd be interested.   Montanabw (talk) 22:53, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keith, please do not remove my own comments from my talk page, that's for me to do. Also, keep a conversation in the same section, don't mess up other people's comments by posting in the wrong place.  I am moving your very extensive post to your talk page and we can discuss further there.   Montanabw (talk) 18:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Bozeman National Fish Hatchery
Hello! Your submission of Bozeman National Fish Hatchery at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! LauraHale (talk) 06:24, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Walander Reversions
I'm more than a little surprised that you reverted my changes to Warlander with the advice that I "take issue to talk", given that you made your reversions without a single word at the article talk page. I don't think I need to point out that it looks like you don't think your own advice is worth following. I think the reasons for my changes should have been clear to anyone who examined them (esp. the text I deleted compared to the references attached to the text). I have made my reasons more explicit at the article talk page, which I hope will be helpful to you. WarlanderHorse (talk) 05:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC):
 * The responsibility and burden of proof is on the person wanting to initiate the change. Self-promotional breed propaganda is a battle we are constantly fighting here.  You can discuss further at the article talk page.  Montanabw (talk) 18:51, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you get ...
this and this ... and this, too?

Fank yew! <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 01:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Shoot me an email with the address you want me to send them to. Montanabw (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

New Editors
I have added a sort of "beginners guide to referencing" at the I'll Have Another talkpage. It's the time of year when lots of well meaning folks try to add things to horse racing articles. I thought I'd try to steer them in the right direction, without using any distracting wilkijargon. You have my permission to adapt, improve and add to anything I have written there. I suppose we'll be hovering over the I'll Have Another and Bodemeister articles while preparing the creation of articles on Went The Day Well and Creative Cause tomorrow. I'll be shouting for Teeth of the Dog, just for the sheer coolness of the name.  Tigerboy1966  20:12, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Yup. "Triple Crown Fever" is about to hit.  The sort-of up side is that Bodemeister won't be running.  However, Union Rags is, so may want to add that one too.  Yeah.  At this point, my favorites from the Derby are all out, so maybe I'll just jump on the bandwagon.  May also want to watchlist the Triple Crown article as well.   Montanabw (talk) 15:48, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for heads up on Union Rags. I've done a basic expansion + referencing job on the article, so it's on my watchist now.  Tigerboy1966   18:57, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The Michael Matz/Barbaro connection with Union Rags will generate interest. Montanabw (talk) 19:22, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Samuraiantiqueworld
I looked at the two articles you linked; at one of them I reverted you, and at the other I restored your edits after a reversion. I don't see any reason to say that you're in the wrong or that Samurai is in the wrong, so I'm not going to be getting involved. Nyttend (talk) 00:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * By the way, what did you mean about WP:ASK? Questions doesn't seem to be relevant, and the WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms is quite irrelevant.  Nyttend (talk) 00:12, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess I meant WP:FORUMSHOP, which used to be "asking the other parent" I forget which acronym is which.  But at any rate, the point is that the issue is one that should go to those who care, not random places those who care will not generally check.   Montanabw (talk) 15:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

An interesting fing
Y'know there are various myths and legends around the British native ponies? Have you heard the one about Foresters having ancestry from equines which swam ashore from wrecked Spanish Armada ships? (Other breeds have those stories, too)

Well ... here's an interesting fing. One of those DNA studies I was reading showed that at least some New Forest ponies have ancient / old shared ancestry with the Asturcón and Pottock - both Spanish breeds. Maybe one shouldn't be too ready to dismiss everything as myths, after all. Could be something, could be nothing - but an interesting fing nonetheless.


 * I have no quibble that ancient pony breeds probably had a common ancestor back there somewhere (wonder if it was mtDNA or y-DNA or what they checked?) But the point is that the Spanish probably didn't have pack ponies on warships, would they? More likely they'd have their war horses? And would any of their horse transports been up front with the warships anyway? (Admittedly, the storm probably stirred around everything, but...). All that said, the swimming ashore theory HAS gotten a modern boost, though in this case, it was the other direction!   Montanabw (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * See below for more info on Spanish battle hoirses, etc. btw, the Checa study was based on autosomal microsatellite markers from blood samples; so neither mtDNA nor Y-DNA. :D  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 08:14, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Given the fact that most warships in that era were really sort of general purpose, it's possible that some horses might have been on the lead ships (although more likely that they'd be officers' mounts...the Spanish of that era were known for their disciplined infantry, not cavalry). I'm also not sure how extensive the use of pack ponies was at this time. 'Tis interesting, though. Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:42, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * If I were running a war, I'd probably land and then pillage the locals for their critters if I needed work animals; they'd be adapted to the climate. But then, I wasn't around back then.  ;-)  Montanabw (talk) 15:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Given the way armies tended to do logistics before Frederick and Napoleon, you're pretty close to the historical mark, actually. The Romans had a fairly-developed logistical system, but after them professional armies got smaller (and thus needed less in the way of supply). And as it was left to units to decide, trains got larger and larger (one can't campaign without one's special walled tent, gilded mirror, assortment of servants, and so on, you know). This tended to be more common, I think, with the Italian mercenary armies, as they tended to fight differently than the Romans or the later, larger (popular) armies of the French Revolution. My guess is that it's far more likely that some wandering merchant or another brought said bloodline to the isles. Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Also a real possibility that the Iberian ponies came to Britain with the Romans. Far more likely than the Armada, actually.  (MTBW has much suspicion of any claims of horses escaping from Spanish ships and swimming ashore, as same romantic claims are given for the origins of nearly all the feral ponies on the Atlantic seacoast islands in the US, and, for the most part, these have been shown to be myths.   Montanabw (talk) 16:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd say the Romans are FAR more likely. Folks tend to forget just how much they got around. And since they tended in the later periods to try to settle the occupied territories with mustered-out Legionnaires, it makes even more sense. Between them and the Phoenicians there are at least two possibilities for seagoing merchant types leaving livestock behind. Intothatdarkness (talk) 16:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Ponies in warfare ...
The Lovat Scouts, formed in 1899, were mounted on Highland ponies, and the British Army recruited 200 Dales ponies in World War II for use as pack and artillery animals. The British Territorial Army experimented with the use of Dartmoor ponies as pack animals in 1935, and found them to be better than mules for the job.

… and here's another … the British Army's 2nd Dragoons in 1813 had the following horses and ponies:


 * 16 hands, 57 horses
 * 15.2 hands, 256 horses
 * 14.2 hands, 340 horses
 * 14 hands, 55 horses


 * And given that old law of Henry VIII, I'll betcha money that the 14.2 "horses" were standing on their tippy-toes (or a little extra clod of dirt) so they'd be counted as "horses."  Actually, one of the horses I own varies between 14.2 or 14.3 on the stick and it isn't just when she's due for a hoof trim, I swear she DOES stand up straighter!  The funny part is that I almost didn't even go look at her when she was for sale, because I didn't want a big horse and she was advertised as "15.2," and she doesn't top 14.3 on a good day!  Sheesh!   Montanabw (talk) 15:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Big grin section
... :D just so the refs section doesn't get lost ;P <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 05:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Hey there ladies - I'm honestly not really "stalking" your edits .. but I did kinda notice a bit of a problem. I dropped a gentle horsey nudge on an editor's talk page ... hope it can all work out. Always better to get someone pulling the cart in the same direction - then to have them pulling against it. :-) ... Chedzilla (talk) 18:11, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Chedzilla done gud!  Montanabw (talk) 18:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * [Pesky hugz Chedzilla] I don't have any particular pro-Armada or anti-Armada axe to grind; I'm just fascinated by all these possibilities. We do know, for example, that William the Konk shipped more than 2000 assorted equines over; we do know that the Vikings shipped ponies all over the darned place; we do know that the Romans took horses away from Britain to improve their own stock, and all sorts of stuff.  People shipped horses and ponies (and, in the ancient past, more likely ponies by today's standards) regularly.  I'm not sure about the Roman thing - they were pretty shocked to come up against over 4000 war chariots in Britain, having been fighting the non-charioting-Gauls just previously.  Maybe some of the Iberian breeds got some of their ancestry from the British breeds, what with the Romans having exported animals from Britain?  Could be almost any explanation, really; it's just one of those fascinating things.  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 07:09, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Adding: I loved the marathon-swimming Arabian; horses can swim quite strongly for considerable distances, which not a lot of people realise. Of course, the Assateague/Chincoteague ponies have highlighted this ability a bit, with their annual swim across the channel, and so on. There's a lot of speculation about Spanish ancestry in some of the Scots and Irish breeds, which could well have some foundation too. A lot of the Spanish ships were wrecked on those coasts, and it seems accepted that the Spanish chucked a lot of their cavalry horses into the sea to lighten the load and increase the manoeuvrability of their damaged ships. The Spanish cavalry at that time were most likely to be mounted on horses of similar stature to the modern Iberian Sorraia horses (ranging from to ).,  Th battle stallion pictured left has withers at the height of his groom's shoulders; now my own shoulder height is about 1ft short of my total height, so unless the groom here is over 6ft tall, the battle stallion is no more than. There's a common mythconception that mediaeval battle horses were the same kind of size as modern Shire horses, but that's just not the case. (And, of course, the modern Lipizzan horse, the closest match to the Iberian battle horse, stands around to .) And (in Britain at least) the breeds most often said to have Spanish ancestry are the New Forest, Highland and Connemara  all of which go uo to  (and some go over-height, too!). So it's all not as daft a possibility as people might think. I like to look at a really logical analysis of this stuff ;P <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 08:00, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd be wary of relying on paintings from this era as guides for size of anything, Pesky. It would be more interesting to determine how many horses the Spanish were actually shipping with the Armada. Although to me some of this stuff is the same thing as Morgan evangelists claiming that their breed was the foundation for US cavalry horses...;) Intothatdarkness (talk) 13:50, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeh, the horsey pic wasn't intended to be taken as gospel, as 'twere, but the tendency for horsey artists was to over-size horses rather than undersize them (makes the horse look more magnificent, etc.) The Lipizzans are probably a good guide, size-wise, to the Spanish warhorses of the era.  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 15:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd tend to agree, mainly because cavalry was transitioning during that time to a lighter model than most expect. Also, their combat conditions were different from those experienced in northern Europe which led to different requirements for arms, horses, and armor. Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Pesky is correct that the images are probably quite accurate as to height. There are just too many of them, including images from ancient Greek art through the art of the Renaissance showing people whose feet were clearly dangling under the horses' bellies to dispute the issue. When I was bringing Horses in Warfare up to GA and helping Gwinva do Horses in the Middle Ages (note lead image there) we did a lot of research into the size thing and it is quite clear that the draft-horse-as-destrier thing is bogus. Indeed, the "great horse" of the feudal era was maybe 15.2 tops, but muscular. (FYI, Gwinva also did Horse transports in the Middle Ages all on her own, as well as Early thermal weapons. I miss her on wiki, we've "met" via email, she's a great person!) I think we can mostly thank Henry VIII for starting the obsession with size thing, eh? (pun intended)
 * Have to admit I'd be more swayed by archeological evidence, but whatever works. Intothatdarkness (talk) 17:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * To the best of my knowledsge, the archeological evidence all says the same stuff. In fact, if you go back to the early horse-warriors, their mounts were rarely over .  Boudicca's horse-drawn chariots were drawn by animals like our modern Exies, at around  to, and all the Mongolian horse-warriors were pony-mounted, not horse-mounted (in terms of height, not type).  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 18:18, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Very cool. I don't really have a dog in the fight (so to speak). Intothatdarkness (talk) 18:42, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

When you talk about how Morgan aficionados want to claim the roots of the US Cavalry for their own, you are venturing into similar sacred and hazardous ground! LOL! Montanabw (talk) 19:21, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I know...which is why I'm mostly editing Vietnam War stuff right now...Intothatdarkness (talk) 19:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Hehehe! MTBW and I don't fight. Intra-coven squabbles are frowned upon; too much collateral damage might ensue, with innocent bystanders being turned into radishes, for example ;P Anyhow, you only have to look at a Morgan to see that it's basically just a tweaked version of the Welsh Cob ... <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 08:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL! I LOVE the concept of "intra-coven"  (we are all -mostly- white witches, by the way.  Radishes could result, but not toads or imps!)  They do have a similar build, don't they?  But how do you "Figure" (pun intended) there is any actual connection?  ;-)   Montanabw (talk) 16:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * With a name like Morgan? Where the heck d'you think he'd have gone for good bloodlines ... yeh, OK, apart from the English Thoroughbred one ... ;P <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 16:38, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The owner of the famous foundation stallion was Justin Morgan. So that part is human!  Really, you must rent the Disney movie!  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 16:47, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Durrrr! That was my point; Justin Morgan was probably a displaced Welshie himself, and as every good Brit used to know in the great days of coaching, Welshies were absolutely the best for the job. And for many other good work-horse-like jobs, too. Power, strength, endurance, flashy movement, good looks, you name it. And the equines were pretty good, too; though when it comes to multi-part harmony they just don't have the oomph of a Welsh male-voice choir. And yeah, OK, I'm part Welsh ... the part being the one with the lovely name of Gryffydd Thomas ... Anglicised to Griffith, of course ;P Seriously, though, I would be mega, mega surprised if the mare hadn't been a good part Welsh cob. And the ancient background of the TBs (the bits which weren't Arabian-descent) were likely of Welsh-descent stock, originally. A lot of stuff is. And wasn't Figure Welsh cob sized? <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 21:01, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Individual animals
I put the link to zoos in individual animals. A large chunk (though certainly not all) of the individual animals resided at zoos at one time or another. In some categories (Gorillas and Killer Whales), almost all have resided in Zoos. This seemed the most logical place to make the connection in the categories. They are relevant to zoos -- for an awful lot of them, that was their home. Don Lammers (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Except for the gazillion race horses who have articles on wikipedia, also all the dogs and cats, movie animals, etc. Really, I guess it's not a huge deal, but this is a category for animals that get named and famous.  A few are zoo animals, most here are not.  JMO  Montanabw (talk) 23:10, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, point taken. I will need to see which subcategories contain predominantly animals that may have been in zoos, and figure out if I can do something with those -- use a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer, as it were. Don Lammers (talk) 23:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. Your collaborative and thoughtful approach in discussing an area of disagreement to reach a useful conclusion that benefits all is what makes wikipedia fun.  Wish there were more of you!    Montanabw (talk) 16:29, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Yogo Gulch NRHP
Someone should nominate Yogo Gulch as a National Registered Historic Place/District. Realistically, someone would have to spend a lot of time there gathering facts, and you and I don't have the time. Pumpkin Sky  talk  00:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Wonder what happened to the people who started the Vortex mine, or maybe that Kane fellow who now has all those gems. They might be the sort to do it.  Hmmm.   Montanabw (talk) 16:39, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * We can pull Kane's info off the PDF. Pumpkin Sky  talk  21:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Possible merge
I just stumbled across Castilian horse, and can't figure out what to do with it. I was going to expand it, but then realized that I can't find any reliable sources discussing this as a separate breed. The "registry" link is dead, and can't find any trace of the organization still existing. I found a forum-type post that said that they were originally a separate type, but were merged into the Andalusian way early in history; it also said that some breeders are trying to separate them out, but they haven't been recognized by any organization. Hendricks doesn't even consider it a separate breed...and she thinks everything is a breed. Oklahoma State says that Andalusians are sometimes called Castilians, which would give credence to the forum post that it was a Spanish type that was merged with all the other Spanish types to create what we now know as the Andalusian. I'm thinking of possibly merging it with the Andalusian article, given the OSU info, but wanted to check and see if you had any knowledge (does Bennett say anything?) of them as a separate breed... Dana boomer (talk) 19:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL! If HENDRICKS says it ain't a breed (and this is the person who thinks the Moyle horse is!) then I agree, Houston, we have a problem.  Maybe check a couple of the other breed encyclopedias available on Google books to be sure, but I would agree. One possibility we haven't looked at is if we should redefine it as an extinct type and if there is evidence to support that. (Modern attempts perhaps are akin to the similar efforts to recreate other archaic types by breeding back from other sources)    Montanabw (talk) 17:04, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've checked my other breed encyclopedias and done a Google Books search and can't find anything that talks about this as its own breed. I find a couple of mentions of "Castilian horses" in regards to 16th (ish) century literature, but nothing that describes them as a separate breed as opposed to just a horse from Castile (although at that point in time, where a horse came from was enough to make it a breed, in a lot of cases). Definitely not enough to give it its own article as an extinct breed (as opposed to, say, the Charolais horse (lots of sources given in the French version; I'm going to get around to translating it one of these days). I've dropped a merge tag on the Castilian article - we'll see if anyone bites. Dana boomer (talk) 20:44, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have done some online digging and cannot find squat that isn't a mirror of wikipedia. There was supposedly a "breeder" link, but the link went to a Peruvian Paso place.  Montanabw (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks
I know discussing Native identity is not your cup of tea, but thanks for NPOV comments in the various discussions percolating about. I find it hilarious that people that have never contributed to a single indigenous article show up and regard themselves as experts, but hopefully this wave will blow over soon. Cheers, -00:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Thanks, U, I do happen to have a little background on the topic in spite of personally being about as white as a Sons of Norway convention (can't even pull an Elizabeth Warren! LOL!), and generally trying to focus on the horse articles here on WP (less drama than the history and politics stuff I COULD involve myself in... ;-P ).  And it has always amazed me how people who would never define themselves as having a racist bone in their body are nonetheless completely clueless on issues involving Native people here in America.  Feel free to drop me a line any time you need an ear.  Montanabw (talk) 16:46, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I lobbed in a $.02 as well, having run into some of this stuff during research on Army operations in Arizona (although with different tribal groups). There tends to be a pretty strong distinction between terms used by historians and those used by the athro/socio community, and often the latter community doesn't seem to bother to look at the origins of their terms. Intothatdarkness (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And in both cases, they are both light years more aware than the person who is 1/32 something or another and wants to claim status as "a real Indian" (**facepalm**), forgetting that the real nations today may not have the least amount of interesting in claiming them. I once had a Native American studies prof (Full-blood himself) describe such folks as "culture vultures." (Same guy said it was sometimes OK to call Native people "Indians" if we didn't know tribal identity. He explained, "we're just so glad that Columbus wasn't looking for Turkey...").   Montanabw (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite so...although I've known a couple of folks who claimed that status for the associated Federal financial aid (college stuff). It always reminds me of Firesign Theater for some reason...the cultural vulture idea anyhow. "No way, man. I just want to cut the soles out of my shoes, live in a tree, and learn to play the flute!" Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * (**Snorts coffee from nose**). Problem is, I think they need federal recognition to claim the college money too, but I suppose FAFSA doesn't look all that hard at the apps and maybe they've tightened it up since we were college students. If you like Firesign, you may also enjoy the Montana Logging and Ballet Co. (speaking of an article needing some work)  Montanabw (talk) 21:26, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I took one last stab with that twit, and I'm out. One of the few things that will really annoy me are people who mindlessly fling terms like "Science" and "Google Scholar search numbers" around without having the faintest demonstrated clue about either concept. Intothatdarkness (talk) 13:46, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, basically you get to the point where you are just feeding trolls. Or twits.  It's why I posted handy links on my user page to the green cheese discussion and How many legs does a horse have?   Montanabw (talk) 16:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

And thanks for the reality check about feeding the trolls. I'll stop :) BTW I know two people who are only 1/256th blood quantum but are still enrolled and very active in their respective tribes. I don't care how thin someone's blood is — if they are active in their communities, make positive contributions, and are knowledgeable about their traditions, they are cool in my book. Cheerio, -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Quite. The ones who get my ire up are the ones who latch onto a "hip" identity for no other reason than some sort of perceived cultural cachet. It's contributions, knowledge, and a genuine desire to belong and make a difference that really matter. Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:47, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Pretty much. If the nation claims them, fine with me.  I remember a joke about this at a pow-wow I attended a few years back (pow-wow announcers are really a special type of comic; native humor at its finest)  who was filling time with a tale about how old so and so was sure he was a real Indian because he was 1/3 blood quantum!   Montanabw (talk) 17:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * UFF DA! Pumpkin Sky  talk  20:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you get if you put 64 Chickasaws in a room together? A fullblood! -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:42, 10 June 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I will say that some nations have more restrictive rules for blood quanta than others. Now if you really want to have a field day, check out this guy (please, read that whole first page, but not while drinking, lest it come out your nose), and the humor surrounding him.  He's a "full blooded human" Oh! And Indianz.com!  Montanabw (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Your edit to I'll Have Another
Your edit here removed the word "retired" and in your edit summary wrote "Tone down the POV and correct error". I think you would agree that good and helpful Wiki etiquette is to know facts before one 1) removes a factual and proper edit and 2) then declares for all to read that that editor doesn't know what they are talking about and inserts non-truths into articles. Thank you. Hialeah Harry (talk) 00:13, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Harry, the word "retired" wasn't needed in the lead (eventually ALL good racehorses are retired), and there was some material in there someone stuck in (sourced to a newspaper that apparently had the same error) about how no other horse had ever been scratched which wasn't accurate, there were also refs in there to "historic" and other flowery language that wasn't needed. So chill. Montanabw (talk) 17:48, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Utica

 * New article on Utica, Montana you may want to look at. Pumpkin Sky   talk  21:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Union Rags
The quote you removed was certainly in the source when I cited it, but it's definitely not there now. That's rolling news for you! I'm staying clear of the article for now. I got dragged into a pointless edit war and almost got myself blocked. That's why I'm posting here rather than the article talk page.  Tigerboy1966  20:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * My sympathies. Hang in there!   Montanabw (talk) 20:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Morgan
OK, I've finally gotten around to doing some initial work on Morgan horse... I've tagged everything that still needs references - if it doesn't have a cn tag, just assume that the next reference covers everything preceding it. Note that I'm only about halfway through the sources that I'm eventually going to check, so I'll have more, but it's late, I'm tired, and I probably won't get back to it until at least tomorrow night. In the meantime, feel free to add, move, tweak, whatever - maybe you can find sources for the Comanche horse thing, which was the only thing that I actually looked for sources on and couldn't find any. The rest of the fact tags I just didn't get to. Anyway, more tomorrow, hopefully. Dana boomer (talk) 02:29, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And, just look at all the pretty pictures (on Commons)!!!! I love it when we have to decide which nice shot not to put in the article, rather than which shot is just decent enough to go in. Dana boomer (talk) 02:36, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah...Comanche. There's no reputable documentation that I'm aware of indicating that Comanche has Morgan blood. Keogh purchased him while on a remount detail, so he was part of a pool of horses being inspected for the Seventh Cavalry in the Oklahoma/Indian Territory region. I'm surprised someone hasn't done DNA testing on the poor guy's hide, since it's preserved at the University of Kansas (as I recall). What's known is coloration (described in older stuff as "claybank"), that he was 15 hands high, and weighed about 950 pounds (don't have the book in front of me, so I'm not sure that's the exact weight, but the height is correct). I used to work for a group in Kansas dealing with cavalry history and had to fend off constant claims that the Morgan was the backbone of not only the Remount Service but all historic cavalry regiments. The interesting part is that the Remount Service did evaluate Morgans (along with other breeds), but determined that the Morgan would be better suited for field artillery service. Intothatdarkness (talk) 13:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I need to do an article here on W.R. Brown one of these days. He spent much of his life in the early 1900s doing tests to "prove" that Arabians would be better cavalry horses than Morgans due to their endurance.  Of course, the cavalry was becoming a thing of the past at the time... A "claybank" was usually a word for dun, usually a red dun -- Comanche looks pretty dark, (I always thought he looked bay in those old photos) so more likely a bay dun or a grullo.  As for DNA, that's an interesting thing when you are trying to determine breed stuff; MANY interesting and unexpected things can pop up! Montanabw (talk) 17:54, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * When the Quartermaster Corps and Remount Service did their tests, Arabians did well in every area but carrying capacity (a fairly important consideration for a cavalry mount). Thoroughbreds ended up dominating the stallion pool by a very wide margin. Of course, none of that is especially relevant to the period when Comanche would have been purchased. Back then it was mostly "American" or "California" horses, at least in Army-speak. Intothatdarkness (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, size and weight correlates directly to carrying capacity; Arabs do well for their size, but 25-30% is a pretty absolute barrier, less of a problem when people and equipment was lighter. Comanche's body type shows strong Iberian horse influence.  Compare to the Pryor Mountain Mustang or the Kiger Mustang.  Montanabw (talk) 18:12, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure if you'd seen these or not. Some nice images of the restored Comanche. http://naturalhistory.ku.edu/galleries/comanche-restoration-project. Intothatdarkness (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, hadn't. Interesting.  Stuffed horses always look a little creepy to me, but yep, he's a "bay dun".  Wonder if they have his conformation preserved properly, if so, he's out behind, goose-rumped and ewe-necked.  Looked better in the photos.   Montanabw (talk) 19:31, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think they came reasonably close, especially when using this picture for comparison. And, of course the Comanche article also claims Morgan blood. Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:04, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Any clue who started the thing that Comanche was part Morgan? I'm beginning to think that we need to address it in the article, either way, as it's such a prevalent thing.   Montanabw (talk) 20:28, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing the Morgan folks came up with it more or less on their own. I don't recall seeing it prior to 1980 or so, but that's just me going off memory. Most older sources I've seen (Leslie Reedstrom's great book on the 7th springs to mind) make no claims as to his breed. Most sources outside of the Morgan community refer to him as "uncertain" or "mixed" breed. This claims 3/4 "American" and 1/4 "Spanish" blood, but has no sources. Given the location of Comanche's purchase, I'd be more inclined to believe that mix (which probably comes out to mustang, really). The Smithsonian here just says "mustang lineage." Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:39, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you take your sources and come up with some sort of blurb to pop onto the talk page of the Morgan article stating something to the effect of "While Morgan afiionados claim Comanche (horse) had Morgan ancestry, there is no verifiable evidence of this in US Cavalry records on the horse." ? Montanabw (talk) 20:43, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll take a stab at it. ETA Done.Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:45, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Uwe Schulten-Baumer
(Moved discussion to article talk page) Montanabw (talk) 22:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Shetland.
I'm not kidding you. Also American Saddlebred, Standardbred, Percheron, and I've caught wiffs of Welsh... I'd have to get back digging in my files, but just about anything that could be in there is in there.. a lot of it "hidden" - they'd register a horse with a breeding like "Amy b.m. foaled 1943. Sire: Blackie by Jubilee King Dam: mare by colt by Raseyn. They'd just ... leave off the fact that they knew that Jubilee King was a Morgan and that Raseyn was an Arabian (grins). Especially prevelant in the registrations past about 10,000 or so... I once read each AQHA stud book entry through 60,000 looking for those sorts of oddities. Somewhere I have the list of "oddities" I made from that reading... as another aside, did you know that up until the 1960s or so, there were still Thoroughbreds that could trace their pedigrees to Peter McCue's breeding career as a Thoroughbred stallion? Ealdgyth - Talk 21:30, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Love it! "Kitchen sink" approach.  Says much about the opposite of the "purebred since Adam and Eve" angle (see my new sandbox, above).  And doesn't the UK Jockey Club have "issue" with the possible non-TBs in the American Jockey Club books?   Montanabw (talk) 21:48, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * By this point, the non-TBs are so far back that it's pretty much a moot point. So much English blood has flooded in that many of the old American TB lines are very thin on the ground. Lexington's male line died out in the first half of the 20th century sometime... and most American TBs don't have that much of the "suspect" blood anymore. It's so far back that the GSB has quit whining ... Ealdgyth - Talk 21:52, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And it's an ongoing question if any of the "purity" stuff matters. Were there a couple TBs in South American Arabian lines? Isn't the Shagya actually better documented and more "purebred" by percentage than the American Arab?  AND (my favorite)  Ever hear the rumor that a few Waler horses wound up in Egyptian Arab bloodlines following world war I or II (heard both rumors)?   Montanabw (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Then we have the great "Doc Bar was sired by an Arabian" rumor or my favorite ... "King P-234 was a quarter Saddlebred" ... there are ALWAYS rumors... usually about whoever's "popular" at the time... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:05, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This reminds me of a book I once read (I think it was this one), by someone who researched their family tree to the year dot ... only to discover that one of their ancestors was allegedly a sea (or lake?) monster which had seduced some female or other. Hmmmm.  One has to wonder what the actual story was behind that one!  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 22:11, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Too many beers? :-D  Montanabw (talk) 22:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

... or an ancestress who fell foul of the "You can't get pregnant standing up" myth ;P  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 22:16, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

AWESOME First People's Buffalo Jump photos
Those are awesome photos!!!!!!!!!!!! Congratulations! YAY!!!! Whoo hoo!!!!!!!!!!!! I swear, I was intending to fly back home to Great Falls in August and take some dang photos myself. But you got there first. Terrific!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Tim1965 (talk) 22:43, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Not bad for the cell phone camera, eh? Was sort of a spontaneous decision while on the road out of the electric city.  Remembered we needed them.  ;-)  Montanabw (talk) 22:54, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Hotel Baxter
I've started a draft on this Bozeman landmark at User:PumpkinSky/Hotel Baxter. Feel free to edit directly. I'll move it to main space when it's ready. Pumpkin Sky  talk  01:55, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Moved to main space and nom'd at DYK. Gave you credit too. Pumpkin Sky   talk  00:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

It's live..
Remount Service is now live. Still needs some work, but it might help you with red links. Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:19, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Konik genetics
Actually, there is no genetic evidence for the Konik being drastically genetically different from other horse breeds, at least not in recent genetic studies. For example, have a look at Jansen 2002, in which the konik clusters with mongolian horses (domestic ones) and thoroughbreds. That the last Tarpans, whatever the Tarpan was, were incorporated into the livestock of the polish farmers, that's a fact. Vetulani started with domestic horses from that region because there is the high probability that they contained Tarpan blood. He started selective breeding with them, and the result is what is now the breed that is called Konik. "Konik" was used for other small land horses in Poland as well, but we are talking about the Vetulani breed here. That's exactly what the sources say and it is the common conception. Maybe that should be clarified in the text. -- DFoidl (talk) 17:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The point is, the "Tarpan" is extinct. The people doing the "breeding back" thing and calling them "Tarpans" are not making an accurate statement.  And if the Konik is not drastically different from other horse breeds in its DNA, than that suggests it doesn't have any Tarpan blood to speak of.    The last Tarpans may have been turned loose with domestic horse herds, I have no beef with that claim if sourced, similarly, there are some who claim modern humans might have a trace of Neandrathal ancestry too; who knows?  I'm OK with anyone who wants to improve the Konik article if you want to, basically my axe to grind is the false claims that the "Tarpan" has been recreated.  The horse breed articles, in general, are often plagued with romantic myths that breed X or Y or Z is the true "pure" real horse, blah, blah, blah.  :-P   Montanabw (talk) 17:29, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I am really surprised that we actually seem to perfectly agree, since your edits in the article seem to contradict what you just stated here. The previous conception of the article inferred that the Koniks are descendants of genuine wild horses, what is definitely wrong. If they go back to wild horses (it isn't even known if the historical animal called "tarpan" was wild or just feral), they were largely mixed with domestic horses and underwent human artificial selection. Therefore, the konik is a domestic horse breed, and that's exactly what I tried to infer with my changes. I also strongly dislike the romantic nonsense that breed x, y or z is a "living relict" or breeding back jokes like heck cattle. The Tarpan is extinct, that's a fact. There seem to be no pre domestic horses of european origin left in europe. Therefore, I try to replace these myths with scientific information on each occasion on Wikipedia. -- DFoidl (talk) 17:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I was kind of seeing the "Koniks are real Tarpans" thing in the way your edits were originally phrased. I also put a merge tag on dedomestication to join up with feral.  It appears that equus ferus ferus -- the true Tarpan, a distinct subspecies -- was indeed a "wild" horse in the sense of never able to be domesticated.  Maybe see what we have at Wild horse, History of horse domestication theories and Domestication of the horse all of which were worked on quite a bit to get things up to date, even if they could still use a bit of polish. The confusion occurs when people call primitive-looking horses with pangare or primitive markings "tarpans" even though they are not.  (And why they'd want to claim this when disposition matters a lot in a domestic horse is beyond me; zebras and Przewalskis can be MEAN little boogers!) There is also a big political thing for primitive claims with the Mustang horse and the Brumby over whether they are native or introduced species on their respective continents, and thus to be preserved or eradicated as vermin.  The Mustang article in particular gets hit a lot because there is a faction who wants to believe that modern Mustangs directly descend from the primitive North American horse when they clearly do not. (Though I would grant that equus was native to the Americas as far as ecological impact,  just not the modern subspecies)  Montanabw (talk) 17:56, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with you. If you saw the "Koniks are real Tarpans" thing in my edits, it was clearly a misunderstanding. I think that happened because I wanted to show that the konik is no real tarpan in a sense that if it descended from the alleged last Tarpans, they have been mixed with domestic horses; while you wanted to show that if the domestic horses the konik was bred from contained Tarpan blood, there should be genetic evidence for it otherwise it is a myth or theory. Therefore, you see, we actually perfectly agreed but misunderstood each others. Anyway, good to see that we agree! I'll try to edit the article with clear phrasing and leaving no room for any myths. The mustang thing is weird indeed. Somehow, each robust breed has its myth spread by their fanciers, f.e. look at the whole heck cattle nonsense. Regards, -- DFoidl (talk) 18:10, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Indeed! And on that note, consider this an invite to contribute to my humor sandbox!   Montanabw (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

RFC for AFT5
Just wanted to let you know about this. If you have a moment, your creativity would be appreciated. You may even win a T-shirt! :D Jesse V. (talk) 20:54, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

About the fake message banner
Montanabw, I'm so sorry to have to tell you this, but I think it's the right thing to do. There was a RFC in February and the community decided to do away with fake message banners. See WP:SMI and SMI. I guess they can't take a practical joke, which is a real shame because everyone's way too serious here anyway IMHO. In summary, I think the fake message banner may have to go, but maybe you can skirt the issue by renaming the text or changing the color. Mine's commented out until I figure out how to change the color. User:Brightgalrs has the same problem since there's a fake message banner there too. Apparently User:Maryana (WMF) enjoyed my banner. Oh well, it was tremendously fun while it lasted. Jesse V. (talk) 07:37, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If it's on your talk page I think it's no big deal, anywhere else would not be appropriate. This is definitely a case of people being too serious for the wrong reason. Pumpkin Sky   talk  10:12, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * But...but...but...this is all terribly serious and highly important. My goodness! Who would think otherwise? . Intothatdarkness (talk) 16:34, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh, heh, heh. If I get wind of a mass movement, I'll resurrect it!  In the meantime, I want to keep my wikistress thermometer green!  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 16:41, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Mass movement? That sounds...bad somehow. Like you need to add "facilities" to your talk page. Or issue a stampede warning. Not sure which. Intothatdarkness (talk) 16:42, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * LOL! Just for that, you can join me in watchlisting manure, a regular vandal target!   Montanabw (talk) 16:48, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow. I'm watching cake. On numerous occasions IPs have replace the entire thing with content like "OMG THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!!" So now it's semi-protected. Jesse V. (talk) 17:25, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You know, an animated stampede might be a fun wikipedia banner...B'rer Rabbit, you watchlisting my page yet?  Montanabw (talk) 18:45, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Hotel Baxter
Casliber (talk · contribs) 16:03, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Main page appearance: Yogo sapphire
This is a note to let the main editors of Yogo sapphire know that the article will be appearing as today's featured article on June 30, 2012. You can view the TFA blurb at Today's featured article/June 30, 2012. If you prefer that the article appear as TFA on a different date, or not at all, please ask featured article director or his delegate, or start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/requests. If the previous blurb needs tweaking, you might change it—following the instructions at Today's featured article/requests/instructions. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. The blurb as it stands now is below:



Yogo sapphires are a variety of corundum found only in Yogo Gulch, Montana, part of the Little Belt Mountains in Judith Basin County, on land once inhabited by the Piegan Blackfeet people. Yogos are typically cornflower blue in color, a result of trace amounts of iron and titanium. Many gemologists consider them among the finest sapphires in the world. They have high uniform clarity and maintain their brilliance under artificial light. Because Yogo sapphires occur within a vertically dipping resistive igneous dike, mining efforts have been sporadic and rarely profitable. It is estimated that at least 28000000 carat of Yogos are still in the ground. The Smithsonian Institution first reported on Yogos in the museum's annual report on June 30, 1899. Jewelry containing Yogos was given to First Ladies Florence Harding and Bess Truman; in addition, many gems were sold in Europe. Today, several Yogo sapphires are part of the Smithsonian Institution's gem collection. In 1969, the sapphire was co-designated along with the agate as Montana's state gemstones. (more...) UcuchaBot (talk) 23:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Just precious, you made it possible ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

DYK for U.S. Army Remount Service
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Another for your trophy list... :-) Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:23, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's all yours, I don't claim the ones where I'm just the nom, even if I made a couple of tweaks.  Montanabw (talk) 20:30, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm still working on getting a list of breeds used. I did get two pages from a Remount magazine listing stallions, but there's nothing to indicate breeds. Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the dispersal sale records from the late 40s will help: Note Witez II. Had to have been a catalogue  Montanabw (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It could be, but mainly for the later period. What I'm after is something from the "main" period of the service (the 1920s and 1930s), and I know it's out there. Sales records would be good, but you'd have to go through two different routes for them (Ag and Quartermaster Corps just to be thorough). There was also a magazine (The Remount) that dealt exclusively with the Remount Service (if memory serves it was directed at the Remount Association). That's where the pages I have came from. Intothatdarkness (talk) 21:13, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Any of this buried at the National archives web site or us.mil?  Montanabw (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Not that I've found, but I haven't looked for a couple of years. Quite a bit of what NARA puts online is related to genealogy, and us.mil can be kind of a catch-all. I've done some poking through their stuff, but haven't found anything specific to this. May look again at some point if my current request goes nowhere. Intothatdarkness (talk) 21:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * See article talk, wondering if the sources I listed there have anything to add or pass WP:RS.  Montanabw (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have some copies of the various Remount magazines and the stud lists for the time period - I was eventually going to write a "real" article on the Remount (not for Wikipedia). I'd have to dig for them... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:36, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Anything that you can throw at us for the remount article or for the Morgan horse article (Morgan people seem quite hung up on the godlike qualities of the Morgan as a military mount; and wasn't it WR Brown who challenged all of that with his Arabians, anyway?) Anything that doesn't take away from your RL work would be very much welcomed!

Ex parte Crow Dog and barnstar
Thank you so much for your edit to Ex parte Crow Dog - your edit significantly improved the prose and flow of the article. I'll also look at the refs to clear up the template. Do you think you might be able to look at Menominee Tribe v. United States? It is a FAC, with the review here. If you could comment on the review, I would make the corrections needed, and I would really appreciate the help. GregJackP  Boomer!   15:39, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Dorothy Baker (madam)
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:02, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Congrats! It reads like you had fun doing it! - Yogo: even in German I kept the sketch of the Iris, I like the juxtaposition to the final. Yogo is now #8 in line for the Hauptseite, but only 5 of them have not appeared yet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And now on this Hauptseite, very impressive ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's been fun to collaborate on these articles, Gerda. Thanks for your kind words and support!   Montanabw (talk) 16:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you see that Yogo got more hits yesterday than the creator of the Iris? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There is something really interesting going on with that, I'd love to sleuth out what it is, just like we had the huge number of hits in June prior to the TFA.  Montanabw (talk) 15:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Golden eye color
Hi, I'm not sure if this is the proper place to put this. Let me know if I should post something like this elsewhere. I remember reading a discussion you and some other editors had about golden eye color, although I can't recall the exact site. Anyway I ran across something from facebook you might be interested in. Magicgypsyranch (a breeding facility for Gypsy Vanners) posted pictures of a horse with golden eyes. They have one particularly good picture of his eye color. I'm not sure exactly what color he is. He's pinto but in some photos he appears sorrel with a flaxen mane and others he looks dusty palomino with an almost white mane. I thought you might be interested in the photo of his eye and also, since the ranch is a breeding facility, they might have some information that would be helpful to you. (The horse's name is Bobby.) Equusma (talk) 22:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Good find! Do you know if anyone has figured out the genetic mechanism that creates this?   Montanabw (talk) 22:46, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Not to my knowledge, but I'm really not up to date on things anymore. I thought the breeders might know something. Equusma (talk) 06:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll do some digging, thanks for the tip!  Montanabw (talk) 15:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Why?
Did you remove the mention of BC on Backcrossing? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:22, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Unsourced trivia, basically.  Montanabw (talk) 15:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, no longer unsourced. I consider it important for those who come across this term and related ones such as F1, to be able to find an explanation of them. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 15:40, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Important to explain the jargon, always. Thanks.  Montanabw (talk) 22:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Such as "we" vs. "wee-wee" vs. "whee"? :-) Chedzilla (talk) 20:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * **snorts coffee out nose** (Sorry stalkers, ya had ta be there.)  Montanabw (talk) 22:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds somehow related to the "mass movement" above and your talk's seemly pressing need for "facilities." Or is it just "wind"? So hard to tell....Intothatdarkness 20:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Puppies need to pee somewhere.....ahhhhh....much better. WOOF! WOOF! <b style="font-family:'Tempus Sans ITC'"> — <b style="color:#956e37">Puppy of Dog The Teddy Bear</b> • <b style="color:#956e37">WOOF</b> •</b> 20:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * BAD PUPPY! (Swatting).   Montanabw (talk) 21:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * YELP YELP WHIMPER WHIMPER!!! /licks MTBW's face/ <b style="font-family:'Tempus Sans ITC'"> — <b style="color:#956e37">Puppy of Dog The Teddy Bear</b> • <b style="color:#956e37">WOOF</b> •</b> 22:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Better, but now go OUTSIDE!  Montanabw (talk) 22:09, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Great, now this will happen... :D Jesse V. (talk) 07:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

WP Horse Racing in the Signpost
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Horse Racing for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 03:30, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't say "With all due respect"
Hi, Montanabw. Thanks for keeping an eye on this trifling flight of fancy, but it was Penyulap that added the second paragraph, not the article creator (=me). Then he courteously removed it when I took issue with it. Please see my edit summary here for that. But I'm glad to see, from his edit summary, that he means to try to put back some reworked version of the point he wanted to make. I certainly don't want to chase off other contributors and "own" the essay; I'm sure we can figger something that makes everybody happy. I just didn't think the addition as originally phrased fitted in with the first part, and even less with the title. Worded like that, it would go better on talk, IMO. (Talk is not a scrapyard or second tier.) But I expect, when P has time, that he would rather think about a refurbished version for the essay as such. Not many people have edited it — the essay isn't old — though many have had a chuckle about it on my talk. But it would be nice to see it flow and expand under many different pens — perhaps into a Featured Essay! Regards, Bishonen &#124; talk 22:30, 24 July 2012 (UTC).


 * That was my screwup, I got confused by the diffs. Never mind... and it's a great essay.  Now, to go find a troll and say "with all due respect..."  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 23:14, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You rang? Chedzilla (talk) 23:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * With all due respect...possibly. Or maybe it was just that darned wind again. Intothatdarkness 20:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Bless your hearts.  Montanabw (talk) 21:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Update/Talkback
Regarding your request here, I just wanted to let you know that I've posted an update on how things are going with it. Just FYI; feel free to check it out. Jesse V. (talk) 23:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Its that time again...
The Core Contest - still can work on stirrup!
 * Yipes! We could, couldn't we?  Montanabw (talk) 17:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Tooth
Hi. I didn't remove the template. I moved it, to where the article is currently located, as I explained in the original edit summary. The page tooth (animal) is just a redirect!

I agree it might not be in that project's "Top" importance selection, but "High" might be more appropriate than "Mid". The place to change that is at Talk:Tooth (and/or you could suggest/note/discuss it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biology. Possibly someone was using a specific list, when deciding which items were to appear within the "Top" importance group?)

Ta. -- Quiddity (talk) 03:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, there shouldn't be a template on a redirect page at all, really, the talk should have been merged too, may have needed an admin if there was other content.  Montanabw (talk) 03:35, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Well done
Victuallers (talk) 07:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Marjorie Nichols
I have completed what I thought was a reasonable article on the late Canadian journalist Marjorie Nichols, whom I wanted to add as a notable University of Montana graduate. The link still keeps coming up red. Any idea why this might be? Dreadarthur (talk) 02:50, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Discovered the article title was spelled Marjorie NIchols <-- extra capital "I" -- I just did a move to fix it, should work now.  Wikipedia, for some reason I cannot understand even after reading the explanation five times, knows that a lower case letter could be rendered as a capital, but refuses to believe a capital letter could be rendered lower case.  Except in the search engine, which seems to get it.   Montanabw (talk) 17:50, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Stub-Class equine articles
Hi, re -  is part of the  tree, the subcategories of which are supposed to hold only stub templates (such as ) and articles tagged with those templates. By contrast, is part of the  tree, more specifically the  tree, the subcategories of which contain talk pages (triggered by the use of the class parameter in a WikiProject banner). The two trees may overlap in scope, but there are not normally direct category links between them - those that exist cause the category to show in Database reports/Dubious stub categories. -- Red rose64 (talk) 14:18, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, but so why is is such a bad thing to have one category cross-link to the other? I'm still mystified.   Montanabw (talk) 19:26, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's mainly to do with the concept of "content categories" versus "project categories". I can't find the guideline, so I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting. -- Red rose64 (talk) 19:51, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Connemara pony
Hi. I noted that you reverted my recent removal of unref'd material at this article. I think it's long overdue an 'improvement drive', so, though not being an expert, intend spending some time at the library to see what material can be correctly referenced. Would like to get the article at least to 'B' status. As you are obviously an interested editor, I hope we can collaborate on getting rid of 'improvement tags' in place since 2009. Best. RashersTierney (talk) 21:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * We have over 3000 article in WPEQ, most of which would benefit from help. So instead of WP:DEMOLISH, how about starting by not deleting random material from the article, but instead, going over to WikiProject Equine and asking for help?  And frankly, you're closer to that particular library, I suspect.   Montanabw (talk) 21:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * sort of on the subject of Connemaras I found a nice article on Stroller (horse). I've just stuck it in the references section of the article for now, but it could be used for lots of in-line citations.  Tigerboy1966   22:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I do that when I find cool potential sources that I don't have time to add, also. Thanks!   Montanabw (talk) 22:26, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * See my section below! I'm hoping to get it to GA/FA at some point, as part of my over-all goal of doing saame for all the British (and Irish) native pony breeds. <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 10:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Horses sleeping while standing up
I would like to enlarge the section slightly on how horses sleep while standing. There seems to be a lot of misinformation out there. I know for sure that they lock their stifles. A ligament runs over the top of the patella and locks it in place. Sometimes this ligament gets over-stretched which causes the horses leg to lock up, when extended all the way back, when in motion. (Not good in a jumping horse, or in a race horse). This condition is called "upward fixation of the patellar ligament". At one time, the preferred treatment was to cut the ligament- vets had a special tool to do this, but I think they have gotten away from this. So I have a few questions I hope you can answer. Firstly, this condition I have described which I think is called "stifled" in layman's terms- Even though it is interesting, should it go in a general article about the horse? The way the horse locks his stifle is quite interesting and I think, worth a picture, but I have no idea how to insert a picture in the text. Where would I find instructions on doing this. And lastly, I have been reading quite a few posts on facebook which say a horse locks his knees. I don't THINK this is true, but I intend to ask the numerous vets that work on the track, as well as the vet I used to work for, and 2 friends who are vets. My question; Are they considered sources or should I ask them for the name of their text book or other book they recommend? I know you are very busy, but I would really appreciate it if you could help me with this. I'm not in a hurry, I just thought this was one place I could start to learn the proper way to edit, since I find the subject interesting, and have some first hand knowledge of the mechanics of it.Equusma (talk) 19:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Way too much for the main horse article, but maybe good for the spinoff article Horse_behavior, where we DO mention some of the bit on the stifle joint, but you MUST have proper citations for all of this. My suggestion is to do the research, and then post what you've found and we can help you smooth it out.  Montanabw (talk) 19:05, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Language-nerdy input: this is exactly where the term "stifled" (as used in "to stifle an argument / the opposition") comes from :D <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 10:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Connemaras
At the moment I'm just doing some bluelink-surfing gnoming, while waiting for inspiration and motivation strike to deal with the Connemara pony thing. I will most probably have to draw another prehistoric map for the article, which means doing some intensive research into Irish prehistory (of equids) and history (of human use of equids) to address the History section. You know what I'm like about that prehistory stuff! I also want to look deeply into the "Spanish influence" thing, as the Connemaras are the British breed most likely (on logistical grounds) to have a decent claim to the alleged-myth. If you know anyone who has DNA-study results on prehistoric Irish equid remains and their relationship to modern breeds, or has access to decent historical documents on exactly when, where, and how many Spanish war stallions were thrown overboard, combined with any contemporaneous documentation of such swimming to shore or otherwise coming into the possession of the locals, that would be seriously interesting, even if it couldn't end up providing much for the article. Any and all links gratefully received on my talk! <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 10:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * You know, we could start by just improving the characteristics, uses and recent history, adding in the "dawn of time" stuff as time permits. My thinking is that the article is so weak now that just better sourcing of what's there would be a big step up!  An FA definitely would need the best history possible, but to work on GA quality would be all I'm really thinking of at the moment.   Montanabw (talk) 18:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll try and make time to have a serious read-through, do some good source-hunting, and work on it. Probably within the next week or so, depending ...  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 09:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked the characteristics / breed standards about (the previous version was actually a copyvio from the Irish breed society!) <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 10:25, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is one of those articles that has had minor cleanup several years back, but never any real article improvement. Everything helps.  Montanabw (talk) 17:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I will definitely get onto it. I'm adding to my "tabs open" collection at the moment (should really add to the reading list, except that I never read the reading list, lol!) this is one I shall use.  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 06:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Sport Horse Box
All I can say is *shrug*!! I just found it on one sport horse profile, and looking through other pages there were no info boxes whatsoever at all, so I used that one and put in info. Don't see it doing much harm? --Catxx (talk) 17:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Better than no infobox, definitely, and seems suitable but best not to change those with "named horse infobox" because I think that's the one that WPEQ is maintaining. Maybe just be sure that if any info is moved to the infobox that nothing gets deleted (height, pedigree, nicknames, etc.)  But there is some interaction with WP Horse racing too, and sport horses ARE different from race horses, so I'll check to see if there's been a consensus shift.    Montanabw (talk) 18:35, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It would be good that whoever can do such a thing can add a "height" section to the sport horse box. I'm not clever enough to do that! I make sure to never remove information, very careful about that. --Catxx (talk) 09:23, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I ought to take this to WPEQ and see if we have too many infoboxes for named horses and should merge them; clearly the race horses need different stats from sport horses, but there are a lot of commonalities too. Montanabw (talk) 17:09, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Purebred without papers
Why do you insist on defining Mixed breed dog as "any dog whose ancestry is not known"? It makes no sense. Take my dog, Casey, for example. I got him at the shelter and no one knows who his parents were. Is he therefore a mixed breed dog? Because everyone, including you I’m sure, has no doubt when they see him that he's an American Cocker Spaniel. Surely, a dog either is or isn’t a mixed breed dog regardless of whether his ancestry is known. So who might call dogs like Casey a “mixed breed” against the evidence of their own eyes? Who would insist on the paperwork? It would have to some kind of International Society of Spaniel Breeders or something. For such people, if it cannot be absolutely proven with paperwork that a dogs is purebred, they will not accept it into their official list of American Cocker Spaniels despite all evidence? Do they even label Casey a “mixed breed dog”? But really, does this mean that this article should have to follow suit? Is not a beagle still a beagle regarless of whether people even know that he exists? Chrisrus (talk) 00:30, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't even have that article on my watchlist, so why are you bothering me here? And the article says ancestry is "...generally unknown and that has characteristics of two or more types of breeds" anyway.  So not sure why you are here throwing a fit about it, or why you are throwing a fit at all.   Montanabw (talk) 17:46, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

sorry
i am so sorry if i seemed offensive to you. Please cut me a break this time, i had surgery last friday and should not have been on the ‘puter. i made an even larger mess on facebook. i may not always be charming but i try not to be rude. at one point my friend told me to put the laptop down and step away wish she had done that sooner.

Sara goth (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Forgiven. But you may want to read WP:Editing under the influence.  LOL!

it's so true, bad day still not felling that great. i did notice when you added the images to the zoomontana site. i was not looking forward to going out and taking images, but i should support the zoo more, so i was happy to see you add those thank you. i was looking at some of your images you have some good helena images that would help on that site. i like the placer center images one even has the bullwacker in it. i have always liked that building and the walking mall.

Sara goth (talk) 18:37, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the Zoo hadn't greened up yet, so was a little so-so, but better than none at all. You appear to enjoy taking photos (but add categories to them in commons -- many don't have them), and so may want to look at the national register of historic places lists for Montana and for individual counties, there is a project out there to get photos of every building/place on the NHRP.  Helps that I have decided that I don't give a crap if the cell phone doesn't take great pictures, it's usually better than NO pictures!  Have gotten in the habit of just taking random photos when I am anywhere.  Added some from Polson, Montana not long ago, as well as some from Great Falls, including a 20-minute side trip over to First Peoples Buffalo Jump State Park.   Grabbed one of the Sacajawea Inn last summer while stopping for gas, and a stay at The Murray Hotel also got images for its article as well as a couple others.  Have some from Butte to add, but want to make one set into a panorama first.  Feel free to add the Helena ones if you want, but not to the point we get a gallery going -  best not to overdo the photos, IMHO, the Billings article is image-heavy, though a few were recently tossed, improving the layout a bit.   Montanabw (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

you have donated a lot of images a lot! i hope to do more but i really do need to categories. thanks for the tip on register of historic places i am going to check that out. i take most of my images with a rebel xt but my friend has an i-phone that i swear takes better images and has cool editing aps. i keep bugging her to let me go out and take some images with it or heck she can even take the images i just want to see them. we went to a concert at the babcock theater she took some images of the front of the place they look why cooler than the ones i took with my rebel. i'm glad you got some butte images it is such a cool town, so much history but few good images. i am the one that over did the images on the billings page but all the billings images were so old and the city is changing daily. then as i edit i go hmmm not an image for that need one, not an image for that need one i don't think it was way out but. but you may need to keep an eye on me because i still think there is things that there should be images of. if i get out of line just tap me on the shoulder, for YOU i think that is all it will take.

where is first people's buffalo jump state park? Sara goth (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC) Not too far from Great Falls. I fixed the wikilink! Montanabw (talk) 19:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Categories are CRITICAL for article writers, especially in Commons! As for photos, the toughest thing is to be willing to let your "babies" go when someone else manages to upload a better one.   I've noticed that once a category is created and images added, suddenly it seems to be a magnet and then there are TONS more images that appear.  For example, note Connemara ponies, a commons category that once barely had any images, and now has many nice ones!  Montanabw (talk) 19:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

wow there is some really cool images there! pretty babies! you seem to be big into horses i noticed, do you have horses yourself? we had two horses when i was very young but my parents could not afford to keep them still have fond memories still love the smell of a horses. Sara goth (talk) 20:13, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Stalker butting in, lol! Hi Sara! Sorry to hear about your health issues, but as a veteran surgery-patient my own experience is that surgery is almost always incredibly successful and well worth it.  The post-surgery anaesthetic brain-fog is always one to beware of, though!  Montana, is Pitke still active?  Her talk page is a bit old.  I'm asking because she was incredibly helpful at adding categories to images when I was first uploading them.  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 07:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Heh, heh, I seem to be big into horses, eh? (**snorts coffee out nose**)  How'd ya figure that one out? LOL!  Oh yeah, don't have a lot of horses at the moment, but various members of my crew (not all of whom I currently have) have helped illustrate several wiki articles, particularly when I've needed models and no images existed! several Montana tack shops have been quite helpful, as well.  Montanabw (talk) 17:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

You've got mail
Pitke (talk) 07:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Telepathy rules OK! Welcome back to Teh Coven, lol! <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 09:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Aww thanks sweetness. As for my activeness... Well, it's low and not nearly as frequent as before, but I'm happy to help. Probably going to have a look at what Commons horsey cats look like these days, this weekend. Pitke (talk) 21:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Made some tweaks over there, see your talk.  Montanabw (talk) 22:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

That Dun / cream / black thing!
Oooh, it does, it does, though! But only when combined with dun ... Philip Sponenburg and I had an interesting e-chat about this one a few years back, with input from a few Fjord breeders etc. One of the things which had happened back in the past was that the breeders had had to recommend not breeding "light blue duns" together because they were getting too many unacceptable double cream dilutes from the cross. Cool, huh? Ergo, the "light blue duns" (black-based, which look different from the dunskin duns) must have had a cream gene, or no double dilute crosses. Philip did say that he was going to bung that in his latest edition of his book; dunno if it's had a new edition since then, but if it has, that's where the ref should be. Cream doesn't dilute black in a single dose by itself, but does in combination with dun. Do you know (can you find out?) what cream+champagne does on a black base? Heh! When I become rich and get the Sorraia colt I want, I'll cross him to some double-cream thing and get some kewl pics ;P <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 03:38, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding: see here for nice piccies (noting particularly the black-base muzzle!) to compare with this and this as un-extra-diluted blue duns. It's a clear visible difference in the coat colour. <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 03:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Aha! PS himself: "On mouse duns the cremello gene in a single dose will be barely be noticed, although it can lighten them somewhat." (emphasis mine)  :D (Hey, yes, he should have called it the cream gene, but maybe he was tired ...)  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing that cream doesn't exist in Fjords, it obviously does. The problem with the edit is that it implied a cream body, which it is not. But all those images to me look like garden variety grullos, in the Quarter horse world, there are a lot of them. But ONE copy of the cream allele wlll not affect black pigment to a significant degree, only red; hence the body can be very light, but the black hairs will stay black, or at least smoky black.  Takes two copies to get a blue eyed cream. If the horse is grullo + cream, I can see the coat being lightened a bit more due to the "smoky" effect,, but the black mane and tail stay black.  Montanabw (talk) 04:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, the mane and tail do stay black, even on the cream+dun black bases (because dun gene doesn't dilute manes and tails). But as PS comments that it "can lighten them somewhat", I think that should be sound enough for a source?  Not going to get into sword-fights with you on it, obviously (although maybe we could get together for some mud-wrestling and make our fortunes by selling tickets to other Wikipedians .. he he!) I'm definitely going to have to do some blue dun x cream-gene breeding and get PS or someone to write up a report on them, with all the relevant testing, and loads of nice pics. ;P  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC) Ooops, only just noticed; I didn't mean to imply a cream body; the body comes out almost white (slight shades of silver), with black-based dun markings (including mane and tail).  The added cream only dilutes where the dun has already diluted, if you see what I mean. pic; 'nother pic. <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:27, 12 August 2012 (UTC) More!:  In the chats PS and I were having with Fjord breeders, you get a pretty classic Mendelian thing goin on if you cross these silver-white-bodied blue duns together: 50% same colour, 25% bog-standard blue duns (darker-bodied), and 25% blue-eyed creams (with smoky-silver manes, tails, lower legs).  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Hee hee! The PS page WAS the source I was using, LOL!  And the mendelian ratios are already well known by anyone who studies cream dilution.   The little almost white guy has some yellowing in his coat in one shot.  I suppose there can be some form of pseudo double dilute with two different dilution genes, it happens with the barlink factor (pearl gene). But the edit that started all this wasn't worded properly... these aren't the "uls dun" according to the source -- those are what other breeds call a "buckskin dun."   ;-)  See how it is worded now  Montanabw (talk) 04:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Gleck! Yes, I didn't check the source you used, lol! My excuse is that I'm knackered, having spent a large part of the day at the hospital with daughter and littlest grandchild, and then hardly slept last night.  I'm not making myself clear, here, clearly (or not clearly ...).  The thing I was talking about is those very pale silver grå blue duns, which will give 25% double-cream dilute offspring when bred together, whereas the darker ones don't. Obviously applies to the ulsblakk and gulblakk animals, too.  The very pale silver grå animals can be produced by breeding darker-bodied grå to ulsblakk or gulblakk, or darker-bodied grå to the very pale grå (so that's where the cream gene comes in).  Yup, I cocked up with the ulsblakk thing in my original edit (I was stupid).  They need a new word for those silvery chappies! P.S. From my own experience with very light-coated animals, I suspect that the "yellowing" on him may be a hard-to-remove stain or two!  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 05:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * All forgiven. I will admit that the light-light-light body color is unusual, and though QH's have both dun and cream genetics up the wazoo, (and I've seen tons, they are the generic horse around here) the Fjord variation seems to be unique to Fjords; wonder if there's yet more going on; the way they have the reverse-skunk stripe in the mane and tail when other duns just have a few white guard hairs hints at this...  Montanabw (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * From personal experience and observation only, the amount of dilute guard hairs in the mane and tail cap seems to be very closely linked with the texture of the mane and tail hair; the more "shaggy native" the texture, the more of that edge dilution we seem to get. 'Nother interesting thing: presence or absence of pangare seems to have a direct effect on mane and tail thickness and hair texture, though whether it's the pangare gene itself, or something tagging along with it in the same section of the same chromosome, I dunno!  But this is particularly interesting in siblings and half-siblings where the parents (judging from phenotype) are most likely hetero for pangare.  The amount of pangare (heh! Pesky talking in layman's terms again!) is associated not only with the amount of dilution in a fairly easy-to-spot-and-quantify way, but the amount of dilution is going directly with smooth, to medium-coarse, to thick and springy mane / tail hairs.  I've been looking at this one, on the ground, for many years now, and haven't seen an exception to it yet.  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Just popping by to note that Icelandics too with their thick manes have the skunk stripe thing going on, just browse them on Commons. It's just that their manes don't get habitually roached to show it off. I suppose dun Shetlands (original model) also have the stripe, as well as any dun crossbreed with sufficiently thick maned parents. Pitke (talk) 05:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * On the pangare thing, add the Haflingers to your list, though they do not appear to have any dilution genes and are all flaxen chestnuts. But Pitke, am I correct that whatever else goes on with dilution genes in the Finnhorse, they do NOT have much pangare?  And they have cream but not dun??  Yet Pesky, the Exmoor ponies almost all DO have pangare, but not dilution genes, correct?  Dun horses descended from Spanish breeds, such as the Quarter Horse, (see here) tend to have very few white hairs in their manes, one reason why they are often confused with buckskins -- in fact, at one time, before DNA of coat color was well understood, there was an argument that a "real" buckskin had to have the black dorsal stripe, which we now know is from dun, while the true genetic buckskin without the black dorsal stripe, in the old days, was sometimes called a "sandy bay."  (Go figure)   You also see very little if any pangare in the American breeds descended from Spanish ancestors, but tons of dun and other dilution genes. (examples in Mustangs) I wonder if the heavy white guard hair thing is a primitive characteristic unique to northern European horses but not southern Europe?   And the other head-scratcher is why, if dun is/was a wildtype color, it has completely disappeared in the Arabian, along with all other dilution genes and all pangare.  (Existence of any dilution genes is considered proof positive that a horse is not a purbred Arabian) The plot thickens, or maybe the thought plickens... Someone has GOT to get funding for more ancestral DNA studies of those northern European horses.  The Spanish have been putting up the big bucks (relatively speaking) for DNA work because they soooo want to prove they are an ancient site of domestication and such and the place where the perfect horse originated.  I guess the UK just does not have the same level of national pride in the shetland pony... (giggle).   Montanabw (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This is all fascinating stuff (but then I've been fascinated by coat colour genetics for yonks!) Yup, the pangare seems to be present primarily in the northern European equids, and absent from the desert-type animals.  There's a mass of pangare ion the Haflingers; more now than there used to be as the pseudo-palomino ones (homozygous for pangare) have become the "popular colour".  (Pangare is cumulative.) When I was a kid, most of the Haffies were the non-pangare-dilute flaxen red-chestnut variety. With the absence of pangare in the desert-descent animals, my own suspicion is that pangare was disadvantageous for hot-climate / dry-climate animals, as it does throw a coarser coat (most noticeable in the mane and tail). Exies are all homozygous black, mostly (judging from phenotype) homozygous sooty, all homozygous pangare, and homozygous agouti (probably At).  No dilutions now other than pangare, though judging from ol reports, there used to be some either dun or cream.  Sooty seems to be cumulative, from my own field research.  Very-sootied animals throw sooties 100% of the time; lighter-sootied animals, bred together, do the Mendelian thing and throw around 25% very sooty, 50% more-lightly-sootied, and 25% no sooty.  The specific sooty patterns appear to have a genetic factor going on, as they recur in families (sooty lineback, sooty rump mantle, sooty blanket, etc.)  I strongly suspect something like the PATN+Lp thing going on with the sooty gene(s). Of course the real head-scratcher in Shetties is Mushroom :D  I have my theories on that one; would love to get someone to "bite" on that.  I'm suspecting either some kind of fading sooty (and interesting that fading blacks have turned up in the same families as mushroom ...) or alternatively some other gene(s) acting on sooty.  Of course mushrooms are all red-based. Now, if I was a multi-millionnaire ...  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:25, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see it researched if Mushroom is an e-tied recessive dilution... Recessive it seems to be, thanks to breeding experiments that have thus far produced only Mushrooms from Mushroom parents, and ee-exclusive it seems to be because other breeding experiments (and iirc a couple of DNA tests) show that all Mushrooms are genetically ee. Now, if it's a pheomelanine dilute, why are bays unaffected? Either the M factor is tied to the e allele, or it's a whole new allele for the E locus. Ugh I want to get involved in those experiments so bad =_= Monty, Monty, please spread a rumour in the USA that Mushroom is potentially lethal under some circumtances and might cause foals to die and might affect the American Shetland Pony lines :P Bam, instant DNA tests :D Well, as instant as you can get with developing DNA tests :P Pitke (talk) 07:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * But Pitke, am I correct that whatever else goes on with dilution genes in the Finnhorse, they do NOT have much pangare? And they have cream but not dun?? They do have Pangare but it's usually pretty mild: typical example would be like this... of course this has to do with the fact that most Finnhorses are sorrel or chestnut, and the shades are often light of themselves. This page has a nice collection that pretty much reflects the average Finnhorses: most are ee, a few are bay or black, one is grey, 50-70 % have no discernible pangare, some have a bit, and a couple have strong pangare (Joihun Vire, Murun Mainio, Lavilan Minttu). (Ratun Ritari is listed (and likely registered) as a sun-bleaching black but he looks like a seal brown, perhaps bleaching, to me...). Some of those btw are not Finnhorses. Just in case you were wondering. Valtteri Valloitus is the first a+-type bay I've seen in Finnhorses! And these are all young horses, it's exciting to see so many are non-ee. Many are by famous "blackmane givers" i.e. EE sires... Humeeti and Pellervo are famous/successful black dressage stallions, Hermeli is an EE bay trotter sire iirc. Pitke (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh any yes you are correct, no dun in Finnhorse pool. Estonians have it afaik and they also have loads more creams going on thanks to no crazy ideas about sorrel=purebred. Pitke (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

More: sooty really should be investigated! (needs to be mapped first ...) It does something with the metabolism of sugar-tyrosines, and so might be interesting with respect to metabolic disorders, laminitis, maybe even diabetes. Worth researching properly. Ben d'Or spots seem to be one expression of sooty. Interesting fing: I have a chestnut mare with sooty, who on wild pasture has a red coat with a couple of Ben d'Or spots. When I had her at home for a while, I stuffed her with sugar beet as her extra food, to see what it did to her coat. Next coat-change, she came out liver chestnut with indistinct Ben d'Or spots, and on returning to wild pasture reverted to red and spots. I will see if I can hunt out some pics to show the change. And, @Pitke mainly, the width of the pale guard hairs seems directly related to the width of the mane-base. Animals with narrow mane-bases (finer manes) have less of the dilute guard hairs; it seems that the dun pattern works on a width-of-body area thing on the dorsal line in the mane and tail, and the wide-base-mane-and-tail-hair animals get the dilution right into the edges of the mane. So it may be more "technically correct" to work on the basis that dun dilutes up to a specific point on the dorsal line, rather than that it doesn't dilute manes and tails (as it clearly does dilute part of the mane / tail). <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 04:37, 14 August 2012 (UTC) Hehe! Me again, lol! I also would really love to find out exactly what this unspecified dilution thing is which appears in a very few Foresters. It's familial (so has a genetic base); coat colour comes out more golden-ish than standard. It's not cream or dun. It's not champagne (no obvious effect on eye colour). It's something else. Affects both red-based and black-based animals. <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 05:02, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Check out the pearl gene ("barlink factor") as a possibility, Pesky, that's the one other dilution out there we haven't discussed much. Maybe also look at silver dapple, though that only affects black pigment. I would hesitate to call Haflingers "pseudo-palomino," as clearly they are all chestnuts. No sense inserting what's not there.  Pangare and flaxen genetics do need work, though, as does sooty; and I would not be surprised if there is more than genetic mechanism linked to sooty. I'm not really sure pangare is a dilution, precisely, any more than seal brown is, even with the lighter hair in spots.  But who knows?   I'm not sure what color you call "Mushroom," got a pic or two??  BTW, check email soon, I'm going to send you some stuff on my critters you'll enjoy.   Montanabw (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * For Mushroom ponies, Monty, see [the Kellas Stud homepage] for pics and pedigree investigations. [This page btw] claims that mushrooms are suspected in not only Shetlands but also Haflingers and Quarter Horses! Purebred Haflingers obviously can't be silver dapple blacks, but for the QH instance I demand illustrated pedigrees :P [This] is claimed to be a mushroom Haflinger. Go and figure if it's an actual purebred Haflinger or not :P Pitke (talk) 11:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * About sooty, Pesky, theory has it that sooty on ee somehow super-packs pheomelanin to quantities where it looks pretty black to the eye. Since pheomelanin production is tied to hormonal activity and the quality of feed, I wouldn't be surprised if these factors can affect the amount of visible sooting in an ee horse. (Do sooty bays have actual eumelanin in their soot or is it super-packed pheomelanin?) But are really really dark liver chestnuts just sooted all over? This Paso Fino has pretty normal pasterns but the topline looks almost black... Soot, as we know, "spreads" from the topline. But if super livers are caused partly or solely by soot, then how come there are super livers that are also super flaxen?? Unless flaxen overrides soot? If yes, then where do the occasional grey-maned chestnuts come from? Those that cannot in any way be silver dapple bays? @_@ Pitke (talk) 11:55, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * the width of the pale guard hairs seems directly related to the width of the mane-base. Exactly. The thicker the mane the clearer it seems to be, that dun factor makes the "guard hairs" paler just like the coat, but the effect halts at the topline, the "heart" of the mane and tail. Would be very nice to know how this mechanism works. Pitke (talk) 16:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Pitke see the stuff at Dominant white, there is something in there (I think, or surf my coat colors sandbox for the discussions I had with Countercanter about all this) regarding cells affecting pigment migrating down from the neural crest, I think there could be a link with the mane/tail thing. Some dominant white horses have pigment in their skin, and if they do, it tends to be along the topline.  No clue what the connection is, but I'm betting there is one.   Montanabw (talk) 17:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Nah, it's definitely not pearl! Pearl horses come out kind "pinky" colour, whereas these on the Forest are definitely "goldenish", and goldenish in a very similar way to champagne horses rather than cream-dilutes. They also have that distinct light-reflective "metallic" thing about them, though to a lesser extent than is often seen in champagne. With the metallicky thing, I suspect that the actual mechanism of the dilution is that it's affecting the concentration of pigment granules in the centre, rather than the cortex, of the hair shaft, as it's produced by the way the light reflects / refracts within the individual hairs (and centre dilution or total absence of pigment in the centre causes some of the light to reflect back in a completely different way). Pangare I thin of as a "pattern dilution", because it clearly does dilute the hairs in the areas where it works, and those areas are always in a distinct and recognisable pattern. Homozygous pangare extends the pattern higher up the body than heterozygous pangare and also causes lesser dilution in the non-pattern areas. There are some excellent pics of mushroom, and loads of info (including extensive pedigree info and genetic testing results), on the Kellas Stud site. Thanks for the email (lovely horse!) The Kinsky horses have a similar metallic look, though much more pronounced, than the mystery-dilution Foresters. The Foresters have dark(ish) skin and eyes (definitely not pinky skin, though I haven't been able to get close enough to part the hairs and see if there's some less significant effect on skin pigmentation). <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 05:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That boy looks like a roan to me.  Maybe roan on rabicano, neither of which is particularly well understood.  Pearl in the USA is described as "apricot" and there is slight skin dilution, not as marked as with cream or even champagne.  Those ponies LOOK like little mushrooms, color or no!  Just so short and fuzzy!  They sure do look like silver dapple is involved there, weird.   Montanabw (talk) 17:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That boy looks like a roan to me [Pesky ROFLMAO ....] Ehem. Did you see the caption?  <span style="color:#003300; font-family: Apple Chancery, Zapf Chancery, cursive;">Pesky  (<span style="color:#003300; font-family:Papyrus, Noteworthy;">talk ) 11:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh, yes, after I answered... :-D.  Montanabw (talk) 15:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

News Flash! (Pitke!) Looks like they have a test for some splashed white! http://www.horsetesting.com/splash.htm (Don't know if there is peer-reviewed journal articles on this yet or not...!)   Montanabw (talk) 17:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ooooh very nice indeed! But... "SW3/SW3 Possible homozygous lethal" ehh why not just call it "homozygous" until the lethality thing has been figured out? :/ Pitke (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Lawsuits. (sigh) Possibly there is either some connection to the same genetic regions as dominant white (W).  Or maybe (less likely) frame overo.  Each have problems when homozygous, but different ones.  The non-viable embryo thing is a concern with dominant white, but the studies that found it had a lot of methological flaws -- for one thing, they were pretty much looking only at pure white horses with blue eyes, and we know know that dominant white alone does not produce blue eyes but splash does, so the possibility exists that either gene is the culprit; also the deafness with some splash horses (mostly when ears are white, it seems) is an issue.  Which is why I'd kill to see what's in the peer-reviewed literature on this. Wanna go tweak splashed white and overo?  I'm up to my ears in RL alligators (though metaphorical alligators, only wish RL was also a metaphor... :-P  ) but can probably do edits and cleanup.   Montanabw (talk) 21:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Editing Wikipedia as a class project
Hi, you can find my course project here. I'm basically following the template provided by the United States Education Program (with some customization), which I find to be extremily helpful. I've located some articles related to my course content that need improvement. My students will work in groups of 3-4 on each article (or part of article). I'm expecting students to do most of the work outside of class, though I'm planning on dedicating ~1/2 hour each week in class to address issues related to this project. You can see a grading rubric at the site. I'm a newbie, so this will be interesting. Hopefully we won't make too many mistakes. I'm happy to share thoughts/ideas about this project. I can certainly use help from an experienced editor, if you're gamed. No pressure though. I know people are busy in their non-WP life. Neuropsychprof (talk) 04:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm interested as well, replied on your Talk page. &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 06:05, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

First Interstate Tower
Hi, your recent change to my edit on the First Interstate Tower photograph does imply that Wyoming and North Dakota don’t count as you stated in your edit but it also implies that South Dakota, Idaho parts of Colorado, Minnesota and Canada don’t count. All I am pointing out is the physical size of the region. This is the tallest building in a large area and that is far larger than just Montana and that is significant. I am very much open to other phrasing but I am at a loss as how to point out the region without pointing out the boarders of the area.

I also had that the tower was completed in 1985 you changed that to “build in 1985” construction of this building started in early in 1984 and was not completed until June of 1985. So “completed in 1985” is a more honest statement.

I’m sure we can work this out. Thanks Mrs keyser soze (talk) 04:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I did a revert because you replaced a neutral source with a poorer quality one, and frankly, the only trivia that matters is that it's the tallest building in Montana. I don't really see any particular pride in saying that it's taller than anything in Fargo.  I'm frankly rather tired of the breathless hyperbole that characterizes that entire article on Billings, it reads like it was written by the Chamber of Commerce.  This is an encyclopedia and should be written like one.  Montanabw (talk) 15:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, my...that is a pretty breathless article. ETA And may have an issue with "borrowed" content in one section. I just added a note the talk page. It's sort of cited, but for something of that length (and exact wording use) it should be set off as a block quote of some sort. Didn't have time to check the rest of the article, but just that one bit is disturbing enough. Intothatdarkness 14:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Looks like the entire history section is possible copyvio (or at the very least an incredibly poor citation job). Yuck! Intothatdarkness 22:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact that you do not even want to attempt to engage in civilized dialog has my blood boiling so I will save this for another time and perhaps another place. But I must say the source I cited was Emporis they are highly respected in the world of architecture. All the architects and designers I work with in Denver use it. The source you cited was skyscraperpage a fun little trivia page also reliable but not half what Emporis  is. I don’t know anyone in the real world that uses skyscraperpage for anything.

Mrs keyser soze (talk) 03:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The real point is really quite simple: The whole article is very weak and it's weak because most of the lead editors throw a conniption fit like this every time anyone dares to question the latest copy-and-paste copyvio they took from another web site.  This is wikipedia, and every time you edit, it says, "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here."  Be as pissed as you want, if you don't think my above comment was "civilized dialogue," then you haven't been on wikipedia very much. Blunt is civilized, if it hurt your feelings, sorry, but if you really think I give a rip whether that building is the tallest building in Montana or in a four-state area, I don't.  Only in Montana do we even bother to go "oh wow!  We have three skyscrapers in Billings!"   Montanabw (talk) 17:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, this is rather interesting, I guess. I'm wondering why I haven't been dragged into this. TheNewKarl (talk) 01:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Feel free to be dragged in, Karl! You made comments on the article talk page that suggested that you and I are kind of in the same place on this one, (i.e. not particularly fond of editing in places where making changes to others' stuff gets your head bit off), but I'm just a bit on the feisty side or else too stubborn to not argue!  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 15:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I never realized people could get so protective of an article, but I've never turned down a good, stupid internet fight. (Same person, my name change went through) ALH (talk) 07:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think Sara goth is sincere in wanting to improve the article at this point. I'd say dive in and see what happens.  I'm all for improving the article, however it gets there.    Montanabw (talk) 17:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I can help some with history and tone...things like that. Gearing up to be busy in my neck of the woods for the next couple weeks, but I'll help when/where I can. Intothatdarkness 22:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Bravo Montanabw and ITD! I tried to help out on the Billings article recently and got skewered royally for it. I won't go near it now and suggest others do the same. Let it stay a piece of crap! Pumpkin Sky   talk  22:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * We bit back and someone else started slapping things around for mass copyvio problems. The result appears to have been an attitude adjustment on the part of one of the harder-working editors and the arrival of about three new editors to help. I think if we all nibble a little it will get better, the problem was mostly one person who shows up here every few months, then leaves again.  Montanabw (talk) 22:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Horse colour genetics? Simple.
...compared to dog colour genetics. For example, dogs have both dominant and recessive black (compared to only recessive black in horses) and apart from the D locus there is at least one barely known (but definitely existing) diluting factor. Add to this that different breeds can have same colours called five different names, of which three are standard or breed specific names for other colours... Sheesh. And breed colour standards. No double dilute creams in horse breeds that accept (or even prioritise) single dilutes is easy, you can breed your buckskin to a bay, avoid breeding weird looking blacks/dark bays together, not much fuss. Dogs on the other hand. Take Great Danes. There are only 7 generally accepted colourations: fawn (yellow with black mask -- although the breed standards of FCI and UK don't require a mask), black, blue (dilute black), black-base brindle with black mask, black-base harlequin, black with "Irish" white spotting, black harlequin with the same spotting. UK doesn't allow mantle black (but mantle harlequins are apparently ok because the spotting isn't that obvious on them :P -- breeders are even said to strive after "clear-front" harlequins i.e. mantle harlequins.) All non-mantle dogs are expected to have no white markings. Even if we assume the simplest possible gene pool to produce these seven coats, the breed has to carry all of the following:


 * A locus y (sable, to allow pheom. coat for fawns) -- no w or t (for wolf sable and black-and-tan pattern), a (recessive black) is of no consequense
 * D locus both D and d to allow both undiluted and diluted black
 * E locus M (eumelanin mask) and E (no mask, normal eumelanin) both occur in the breed -- no G or e (no grizzles or recessive reds/yellows occur in the breed)
 * K locus all three of K, br, + (called k or y depending on source) -- to allow dominant black (black in Danes is mostly or exclusively dominant), brindling, and normal pheom. for fawns
 * H locus H and h (for harlequin and non-harlequin)
 * M locus M and m (for merle and non-merle to allow harlequin expression -- harlequin is basically a "clean" merle)
 * S locus S and i (for no spotting and Irish spotting)

The most obvious faults here is:
 * production of non-harlequin merles -- absolutely unavoidable. Harlequins are never bred together because of the 25 % chance of homozygous merle pups (they are mostly white, often deaf, and sometimes have microphthalmia and other conditions). Merle is (obviously) dominant, Harlequin is also dominant, but unless one or both of your animals is homozygous for Harlequin (and good luck finding one, no DNA tests for you)... your litter out of or by a harlequin will be pretty likely to have merles. Hh Mm (harlequin) to Hh mm (het carrier) would produce 38 % harlequins, 50 % self (het and hom carriers and non), and 13 % merles. Hh Mm (harlequin) to hh mm (non carrier) would produce 25 % harlequins, 25 % merles, and 50 % self (half het carriers, half non carriers). And these calculations don't even take into account the chance of brindle, blue or fawn harlequins... (Or blue brindle / bluemask fawn harlequins... given you would use black phenotype dogs for harlequins, those would require phenomenally bad luck :P)

Two are more excusable:
 * production of non-self black dilutes: blue harlequins (accepted by the UK standard but unpopular), blue-masked fawns, blue brindles, mantled blues
 * production of non-black harlequins -- both of these cases are not as bad because Dane black is dominant black (and it dominates brindle and fawn as well) so selective breeding based on phenotype takes one quite far and avoidance of dogs with fawn or brindle in their other offspring is almost safe.

Additionally allels in the S locus have been shown to be incomplete dominants, i.e. SS is self (possibly with tiny white markings), Si is likely to be "skimpy" Irish pattern, while ii is usually the "real" Irish pattern. Now that UK has disallowed mantle black, I wonder how their harlequins are going to be bred for mantle. It is quite possible that the breed actually also carries the piebald allele for the locus, so some of the mantled dogs could be homozygous SP and able to throw undesireable piebalds.

This makes me think of an equine breed where the only registerable colours were seal brown, frame buckskin, and mouse dun. Basically you'd be stuck breeding three separate gene pools, one of them is doomed to consistently produce non-registerable foals by definition, and two will throw the occasional recessive unless truly drastic measures are taken (i.e. DNA tests mandatory to prove homozygous genotype for brown/bay/black/dun or revoking registration of horses proved to be heterozygous for them)...

And don't let me even get started on cavy colours. They have some shared loci with dogs (A, B, E, S, Rn at least, most of these have mostly similarly functioning alleles), but then the dilutions, lord. P locus dilutes eumelanin in the eyes and the coat, the crazy C locus has at least five different alleles that have varying effects on eum. and pheom. and they have multiple incomplete dominance to boot. But the best part is that cavies don't have money in them so most research is not peer reviewed and is carried out with breeding experiments and pedigree analysis by cavyists themselves.

Yes I'm doing things in fi.wikipedia and intend to publish in here when the time is ripe... For now I'll vanish back into the deep shadows of my jungle... Pitke (talk) 11:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * LOL! You are correct that horse genetics are WAY easier!  I think my head may have just exploded!  :-D    Montanabw (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * User:Ched <-- has flashbacks to the "Total Recall" (the original) movie.

America, you continue to astound me
Needledd blabber aside, I'm translating something for fi.wikipedia and need to know what a tail brace as in gaited horse tail setting device is. Google isn't being much of a help as all it finds me are either sites selling them, or images of the device on its own or (presumably) worn but as the previous looks to me like a series of tubes and the latter like a bunch of horses with unnatural tailsets, I thought I'd ask you. Oh and I also find a number of sites critisizing gaited horse showing for animal abuse, but apart from "stacking" they don't seem to be interested in explaining what the things they are up against are.

How does a tail brace do its job? Yes this is crucial to the translation :I -- Pitke (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh and btw, big lick obviously has some idiomatic meaning, but once again, the Internet fails me. Sticks-and-wire explanation please? --Pitke (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. I know what "big lick" means when it comes to TWHs, I'm meaning any "general" meaning the words may have. --Pitke (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * LOL! I'll let my non-horsey TPS crowd tell you if there are other meanings of "big lick" that I'm not aware of; I personally only know the phrase as referring to the exaggerated front leg action of the TWH with the heavy shoes and stacks.  Colloquial or slang use of the word "lick" by itself, particularly in the American south or other rural areas, can also refer to losing, particularly in the context of fighting or being beat up; phrases like "I licked him," or "he took a licking," (or more colloquially "lickin' ") mean the person won and thoroughly defeated the loser.  It can also refer to a young person being given corporal punishment as in "my dad gave me a lickin' for being bad." "Taking his licks" might mean accepting punishment.  However, it can be used outside of violence to infer a very thorough defeat, "he really licked me at cards" "our team licked 'em at the big game." There is probably a better explanation in the Dictionary of American Regional English.  A "lick" can also refer to quick movement, flames 'lick" at wood, an expert guitarist can play "hot licks." (or "cool licks" -go figure). No idea how any of this got to "big lick," but I'm guessing that's the quick movement definition is related, somehow.  Maybe people on my TPS list who live closer to the south have additional insights.   Montanabw (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Urban dictionary entries give the following meanings:
 * brownnose (probably from the verb lick)
 * "something that cost a lot, or more than expected." (sounds like it's related to the "beat" meaning)
 * "acquiring a large sum of money in an unconventional, mostly illegal, manner." (sounds like it's related to the above meaning)
 * "starting hand of 6 and a 9 in hold em poker" (they seem to agree it's from the verb lick, "for obvious reasons")
 * How any of these have anything to do with flashy ambling... beats me :P --Pitke (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * They need a RURAL dictionary! LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 20:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * American Saddlebreds have a tail naturally set high, not as high as an Arabian, though. When I rode Arabs saddle seat equitation, I took some lessons with a Saddlebred guy who was pretty good to his horses, and though I saw some show prep, I didn't see tons.  There are tail sets, used at the stable, and tail braces, used in the show ring.   The people I've observed prepping Saddlebreds for a show class either put on the  temporary "tail brace" images in catalogue showing attachment to saddle, I can't find a photo of one on a horse but it goes under the tail to hold it up and tail is tied in place over it, and/or if the horse carries its tail straight, I've also seen people just tie the tail back to itself with a shoelace when they take the tailset off.  (see left hand photo)  Then to hide it all, they put a fake tail or tail wig (sometimes called a "switch") over the top of the real tail, also tying it around the set to keep it all sticking up straight.  Oh, and for an extra boost, many of them take a big gob of ginger paste and shove it up the horse's anus right at the last minute, which is illegal but hard to catch. Tail sets are basically a harness-like arrangement designed to make the tails of Saddlebreds and Walking horses and some show pony breeds like the Hackney pony. (I think most other gaited breeds show with natural tails) look like they are carried high, but in that weird sort of way. This is a tail set on a horse.  They leave it on ALL THE TIME during a horse's show career, except when the horse is being ridden.  This means the horse is always kept in a stall, too.  Some Saddlebred and TWH barns I've seen have "tail boards" (not sure if everyone calls them that) in the stalls -- 2 x 6's set like a shelf at about horse buttock height to keep the horse from rubbing its tail. (Can't find a photo of a stall like this on google). The horse usually has a horse sheet or blanket on under the tail set harness to prevent rubs, like this.  Basically, the thing is a glorified crupper  that stretches the soft tissues of the tail so the tail assumes that upright position seen on this horse.  It can be done without cutting the tail.   Sometimes before setting the tail at home, they also cut or "nick" the muscles that hold the tail down so that it moves into the desired position faster, but they don't break the tailbone - that actually wouldn't work to get the desired effect. this message board has a lady explaining how its done and hear are more detailed instructions about tailsets. Removing the tailset will result in the tail - even a nicked tail- returning to a normal position within a matter of days or weeks. The horse can still move its tail, if it's taken out of the tailset, and in retirement swishing flies is not much affected.    The chat forums all have a bit of the usual battle between hyperbole about it being "harmless" and hysteria about it being horrible.   Montanabw (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The rubber tubing stuff you saw is used on the feet, called "stretchies." They develop the muscles the horse needs to step high via, basically, resistance training. Here is an example.  Montanabw (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I... saw no rubber tubing? I saw this (and its buddies), dubbed tail brace, look at that thing and tell me it does not look like a series of tubes :) --Pitke (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh! I saw the word "tubes" and thought of the surgical tubing they use for stretchies.  When I hear "tube" I think "plastic."  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Now, as to all of the above, there are plenty of pro and con views on the internet. Let's say on the 1-10 "mean to horses" scale, soring or horse-tripping being stuff that's a 10 and drugging sore racehorses at at least a 9, I'd put the whole tail-setting thing at about a 5, in that the ginger up their butt part is really nasty, but for the rest, it is not great for the horses to be cooped up all the time with this crap on them and I personally wouldn't do it, but, like the big heavy shoes, horses otherwise treated humanely usually retire healthy and can be retrained for other disciplines with no physical consequences related to the tail brace (as far as I know).  Contrary to some of the more hysterical stuff out there, Saddlebreds don't have tails broken, they aren't sored, and their tails will go back to "normal-" the nerves aren't deadened or severed (at least if done right, there are always idiots). In the Saddlebred world, I have bigger issues with their breeding horses with severe hereditary lordosis and some of the just plain sicko training methods -- I've seen some real brain-fried Saddlebreds that got that way from abuse, but not from tailsets.   And frankly, all breeds and disciplines have their dysfunctions and cruel tactics; some of the saddest horses I've ever seen are Quarter horses made to go around and around on a longe line for hours in the hot sun with their heads tied to their hocks in hock hobbles so they went in the old "peanut roller" look with their heads almost to the ground, shuffling along...   Montanabw (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Sweetness, I just asked for the method for a tail brace working well you provided me with that and a lot of stuff. It seems you needed to vent! :D But thanks again, I think I can manage for now. --Pitke (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Bwahahahahaaaa!  Montanabw (talk) 20:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

LORDY! I thought I'd like some challenge...
Holeebejee. Let me say that again. Holybejee. So what did I take on? Rollkur. Super controversial topic, most sources available are blogs (or very curt, OR very PC). A Wikipedian's dream! NOT :D

I ended up getting so steamed up I had to draw an illustration just to get a usable pic. It'll go live tomorrow I think, and I'll probably pimp it everywhere. Yes, in need of a bit of shoulder now. Can I borrow yours pretty please? --Pitke (talk) 22:29, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Shoulder offered. I can help, we need to improve the en.wiki article Rollkur anyway - shoot me the scan if you have it on commons.  We could also surf free images on Flickr, I bet SOMEONE has a shot of an overflexed horse that's free use.  I happen to have a copy of that book by the German vet (in English the title is "Tug of War") and if you need RS content, it might take me a bit of time, but I would be glad to help.  (Email me if you want more stuff).  My own soapbox is that rollkur is a whole lot like the stuff the Western Pleasure people have been doing over here for years, mostly with draw reins. Oh yes, my deah, preaching to the choir, preaching to the choir!   Montanabw (talk) 22:58, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Pic is live. I found a metric ton of additional stuff, mainly papers, on hyperflexion/rollkur/whatever, and am thinking of taking a few days off the topic entirely... I'm also not keen on translating the article just yet, mainly because I don't want the added trouble of updating double for every addition I find, but also because I'm hoping to DYK... Perhaps I should start by trimming rollkur over here of some of its almost-two-years-uncited parts... 9v9 Is DYK expansion measured by the prose or by the code btw? Pitke (talk) 19:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and a printed source like that book would be VERY welcome too :) --Pitke (talk) 19:15, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and to clarify, I DO mean take time OFF rollkur, mainly because I'm concerned I'll unwittingly litter horse tack and hyperflexions all over my fashion plates for school... 8D Not that I don't have a habit of highly dramatic poses anyway but in any case... Oh and time with friends/family is always good when dealing with potential animal abuse. --Pitke (talk) 19:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep what's there, citation is needed, but the data is sound. Google translate sucks at Finnish or I'd do it myself...  Montanabw (talk) 19:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If it's sound then why isn't it sourced? I'll be checking the English version for things the Finnish one might be lacking, but if I can't find sources for it, it will stay out. Even if we forget the controversy, I feel like aiming high with the article quality. Definitely trying for GA in fi.wiki and B class here, perhaps even higher if sources remain plentiful. --Pitke (talk) 19:35, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Mostly because I'm sufficiently lazy that I don't go answer every tag that people put on the 3000 articles on my watchlist! :-D   (Yeah, 'my bad) That and, on en.wiki, animal abuse issues can become a battleground so fast that it makes no sense to take anything about them past B-class anyway because someone will try to derail it with POV pushing.  (phooey)   Montanabw (talk) 20:55, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We'll deal with the first couple of loudmouths in the old-fashioned way and apply for prodection after that ^.^ --Pitke (talk) 06:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I edit on the rodeo articles, which routinely get hit by fanatics on both sides of the issue. I also negotiated a truce at charreada. The "loudmouths" can go pound sand, they're taking on an NPOV pro ... (grin)!

Maynesboro Stud
Hi Montanabw. I reviewed William Robinson Brown for DYK and was wondering if we might want to hold it for the centenary of the founding of the Maynesboro Stud. I see that it is being celebrated on September 15, but was unsure if that was the actual 100 year anniversary of the founding. Thought I'd check in with you and see what you thought/know. Great article, by the way. <font face="DejaVu Sans" color="333300">Gobōnobo + c 05:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I would be OK holding it for a month, in fact, that would be perfect! I cannot find a source with a specific date.  Given the nature of a horse farm, they were buying animals for a couple years and somewhere in the process, sources give us 2012, Brown probably decided to put up a sign and give the place an "official"  name!

Final push
The Contributor copyright investigations/Vanished 6551232 CCI is down to its final 25 articles. If we can tackle one a day each we can get it done in a week, and two a day will get it closed by the end of the weekend. Let's see if we can get this done and cut down a bit on the CCI backlog, we've been doing great so far. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 18:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Nice to finally see another one closed. :) -- Wizardman Operation Big Bear 04:32, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Hooray! Kudos all around   Montanabw (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Re: Next mission
Alas, it looks like the ItsLassieTime CCI will be a hard one to crack. Socks plus high-volume diffs plus offline sources equals probably the most difficult CCI out of all of them. It would take many very dedicated users to even make a dent in that one. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:13, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

The citation was always there and never there
It was in a para, cited at the end (source NY Times article). When you broke up the para a while ago, this sentence got orphaned, separated from its parent para. Churn and change (talk) 23:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I knew it had been sourced originally! Thanks for finding my brain!   Montanabw (talk) 20:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Leon, Montana
Hello dental floss tycoon, I saw that article pop by with a warning, "Tag: possible cut and paste move or recreation)". Turns out it's a copy of Cat Creek, Montana, which has seen some problems in the past. I don't know much about that beautiful state so I'll leave it to the experts. Happy days, Drmies (talk) 20:09, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I truly do not get what is going on with that. (Why does anyone really care about a wide spot in the road...?)  But thanks for the heads up.   Montanabw (talk) 20:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, in the city I live in we all pretend to care about the city we live in... Drmies (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Except I don't live there (grin). In fact, hardly anyone does.  It really IS a wide spot in the road. Unless there is a merry prankster who lives there, I cannot for the life of me figure out why this article is a vandal target.  Montanabw (talk) 22:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, let me look at the Varians: also the Brown article a total formatting mess
An open ref-tag ate up most of the text. But even with that fixed, there seemed to be issues with ref-tags; so I decided to leave it alone for now. Churn and change (talk) 00:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC) Hm. It was OK yesterday; I must have screwed up something when I did my last round of copyedits... will fix that bit. Montanabw (talk) 17:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and fixed it, and ce-ed some stuff. During your ce, an open ref-tag popped up. Somebody trying to fix it added a at the end, making things worse. Churn and change (talk) 17:34, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good now, I'm tweaking your changes, some nuance is needed, though my style is always open to improvement.  Montanabw (talk) 18:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've had a look through the Varian brothers article as well now. Footnote #32 wasn't linking to the entry in the References because there was no year provided in the sfn template. To make it work, I've added the date of 2004, which is the copyright date at the foot of the target document. I have a nagging impression that the lead is a little on the short side, but I'll leave that for you discuss with your GA reviewer should it come up. Malleus Fatuorum 20:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Dang templates. I probably will tweak the lead before I put it up for GA; I'm probably going to send up W.R. Brown first, anyway.   Montanabw (talk) 20:53, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Did some digging on Russell Varian
Dumped the info on the article's talk page. Will start pulling stuff in from the reliable sources. I think the overall picture of his personal life is clear. However, it is strange his first wife seems to have vanished into Internet obscurity, though their son, George, seemed to have stayed part of the family. Will look at Sigurd now. Churn and change (talk) 19:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I suspect that Sigurd is going to be more fun, he was more the "people person." May find some things via his son Jack Varian, owner of the V6 Ranch...   Montanabw (talk) 19:22, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

DYK for William Robinson Brown
PanydThe muffin is not subtle 16:02, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

The categories
A subcategory is, per WP:CATEGORY always a subset of the parent category. If it isn't, it shouldn't be a subcategory. If a subcategory overlaps, partially or fully, with entries in its parent category, then they are non-diffusing and the template has to be added. If a subcategory's entries do not overlap, the template isn't needed. Note that not all entries in the subcat has to be in the parent cat. for the template to be valid. The template doesn't say all entries in the subcat should be directly included in the parent cat too. Churn and change (talk) 20:38, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * These are not subcats of each other; there is overlap, but it would be like an orange fitting into both category: fruit and category: orange-colored things. So whatever works, the main point is that one is not a subcat of the other. Horse breeding and studs includes entries from many other breeds, not just Arabians, and the Arabians category contains many things not part of a horse breeding or stud farm, such as "biographies" of individual horses  Montanabw (talk) 00:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * But if you go to Category:Horse breeding and studs it says right there at the top, Subcategories: "Arabian and part-Arabian horses". Are you saying that should be removed? Churn and change (talk) 05:11, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll look at that; we are not category experts at WPEQ, but we are quite concerned about good cross-referencing and navigation. Whatever works...  Montanabw (talk) 17:06, 19 September 2012 (UTC) Follow up The "right at the top" bit about subcategories is standard language from some sort of template, we can't change it.  If I could, I'd make it say "cross-categories and subcategories" but I'm not a category syntax programming god.  (Frankly, some of the categorization rules over there make no sense to me; many things need cross-categorization)  Montanabw (talk) 17:16, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * We could explicitly add a section which says "related categories." Making that a subcategory doesn't seem right since there is just overlap, not full inclusion. Unfortunately there isn't any automated way to add related categories; it would have to be manual edits. The problem with what you have now there is it confuses editors, who expect the standard conventions of WP:CATEGORY to be followed everywhere (subcategory fully included in the parent category; nondiffusing template if entries duplicated in both). Churn and change (talk) 17:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If the simple solution is non-diffusing cat template, I guess I get that, if manual fix cross-refs both to each other, that would be more to the specific purpose. I guess if you want to give it a shot, now that you understand what the problem is, I'll just watch from the sidelines.   Montanabw (talk) 17:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

New category "Varian brothers" in WikiCommons
That has scanned images of our various sources for the article. Got in there as expired (non-renewed) copyright and hence PD. Churn and change (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks!  Montanabw (talk) 17:52, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I guess we are supposed to pick a subtopic from [Wikipedia:Good_articles] ?
The list Good_article_nominations doesn't show the article right now. Churn and change (talk) 18:58, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I did, and I thought I added a subtopic, but someone went in and changed it, then I changed it back... not sure which hiccup we have, mine or the other one. Montanabw (talk) 19:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Advice please
Hi Montanabw. I think with our work on Overview of mutilatory procedures on animals we have developed a mutually high respect for each other's editing, commentaries and civility during discussions. Unfortunately, this is not the same with other editors. On the Talk page for Pain in invertebrates I have run into an editor who seems to be deliberately obstructive by refusing to verify their changes to the article. This editor has also removed links I placed to guide non-taxonomist readers in the change of name of a species I refer too. Most recently, the editor has left discouracging comments on my proposed change to Template:Poultry, a subject I would not expect them to be commenting on, i.e. the editor maybe 'Stalking' me. I would really value your unbiased opinion on the Talk that has occurred on Pain in invertebrates. Have I got too close to this and is it me being the obstinate one? If so, please let me know - I have broad shoulders. Otherwise, some advice on how to deal with such editors would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance. __DrChrissy (talk) 18:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm. The proposed new template for poultry IS probably too big, but the current one is possibly a bit too small, IMHO.  Maybe the trick is to think through how the topic is subdivided and if there are overview articles on each subtopic that are themselves internally linked to the more detailed articles.  Having survived several template wars on WP Equine, I'd say that the other user is partly right: what you've proposed is too big, does have too many repeated links, too much detail. Navboxes basically have to either contain the broad overview articles, or be really extensive and hit everything; on a big topic, you can't have the latter.  At WPEQ, an example of the former is one such as Template:Equine, where I think we got it almost "just right" in that we have links to most of the broad topics without getting bogged down in minutae. (WPEQ has over 3,000 articles tagged!) The latter is Template:Equine coat colors where we have, best as we can determine, ALL articles on the topic.  The 250-lb gorillas, one of which I must admit I created, but it will win no awards, are mine, Template:Horse equipment, which also lists everything, but in doing so is really quite bulky and rather inelegant, even when collapsed.  The other, not mine, is Template:Equestrian Sports, which is also a comprehensive, lists every article on the topic navbox, and I'm thinking right this minute I could clean that one up a bit by making it a collapsible navbox by putting the main topics as linked headers...hmmm.  I think that if one must have huge clunky infoboxes, these two big ones at least have the subcategories broken out so that people can easily navigate them, but for yours, I'd say unless it's feasible to list EVERY article on the topic (and I'm betting is isn't for poultry), then you need to figure out how to do a tighter summary box.   Montanabw (talk) 18:59, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


 * As for the article, I think you may well be in the right, as far as asking for sources and such -- but for now all I can say is "Oh gawd, not taxonomy! HISS!" (holding up cross, holy water and garlic!) (grin). But seriously, I'm going to pop a message to a user I know to be an expert on taxonomy in their professional life (and a WP admin) to take a peek at the question and verify the information; I never knew there was such controversy in that area, but apparently there is, but that, in my humble opinion, doesn't give an excuse for not citing sources.  I think the other user is being a bit tendentious, yes.  But when you have two people with irreconcilable differences, the solution is usually to get someone with both expertise AND neutrality to take a look. So, as they say, make sure you are right, then go ahead. I'm going to check with someone to see if you are right, and in the meantime, I'll mention the spat to some admins I know who can go over there and present a calmer view.   Montanabw (talk) 18:59, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for the quick and extremely helpful response. I'll look at the template again.  There are several birds on there I would not really consider to be poultry (emu, ostrich, etc), but these were included in the Poultry article.  I'm sure I can trim it down.  Regarding the taxonomy (I share your views in this!) verification, I am not challenging that there has been a change of name, I simply believe the WP reader should be directed to a verifiction that the name has been changed.  Otherwise, the reader reads one name in the original research paper and a completely different one here on WP.  For simpleton biologists like me, that is extermely confusing.  So, I am simply wanting to help the reader rather than challenge the accuracy of the taxonomy change.  Once again, thanks for the advice - very much appreciated__DrChrissy (talk) 19:16, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * My gut says citation is good, sometimes even in a WP:POPE situation, which is less common than most people claiming that guideline think. See the citations at horse or wild horse. We had a spat over the equus ferus caballus thing and still get the occasional, "but it's equus caballus complaint.  But a link to recent peer-reviewed literature often settles matters.  Montanabw (talk) 19:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean about the citations for Horse...nice looking article by the way. Might use that as a template for changes to Chicken which I have been thinking about.  I've already revised (trimmed down) the template:poultry and I am happier now that a few species have been got rid of.  Thanks again for the helpful input.__DrChrissy (talk) 20:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Appaloosa TFAR
I was surprised to find this was never a TFA. I know you, Dana boomer, and others love horses and I have a big fondness for Appys, the lead pic is wonderful, and I think this would make a fine TFA, so I have nom'd it for Oct 5. Pumpkin Sky  talk  02:47, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good, let us know how it goes. (I have a lot of TPS-ers who may be willing to help!) Montanabw (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Enjoy the ride! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Indeed, no notice. Did Dana boomer or Ealdgyth get notice?  They were the other people on the FA team...   Montanabw (talk) 19:55, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Gerda was nice enough to notify both Ealdgyth and I. The bot that previously did the notifications has been acting very screwy lately, IIRC. Dana boomer (talk) 23:45, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

GA review comments for William Robinson Brown: comments fairly light; fixed a few.
Fixed some of the comments; finally found a source which has the year of his marriage—a newspaper obituary of his wife. The comments aren't major; guess we should be ok. Churn and change (talk) 18:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Been offline all weekend, am back to the grind now, thanks for the note!  Montanabw (talk) 16:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Insultspout.2
Hi little Montanabw. Flattered at receiving encomiums on my work here! Modestly, I am trying to hone my template skills, to provide useful tools for my work to teach people a lesson improve civility on Wikipedia. In case you'd like to exchange the beta version on your userpage for the updated template, will call it up. [Temptingly :] It is enriched with an entire extra fully updatable insult! P.S. It's not really a banner, but a Civility Template. Feel free to use!  darwin bish  BITE 23:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC).
 * Excellent upgrade, and it works on other pages but isn't working on my user page. Can you see if you can figure out why?   Montanabw (talk) 05:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Strange. Oh, I see you fixed it, right? Note also that the template will work better the higher up it's posted on a page. The "here" button for fresh insults purges the page, and then you have to scroll back down from the top to see the new insults. I asked Personal Template Code Consultants, User:Br'er Rabbit and User:RexxS, but it doesn't look like anything can be done about it.  darwin  bish  BITE 14:07, 4 October 2012 (UTC).

Simon & Schuster's Guide to Horses and Ponies
What I did was convert it to an ISBN-13, which a bunch of the others are, and are preferred anyway; the ISBN-10 is ISBN 0-671-66068-3, which you seem to be seeking. That last digit is a calculated checksum and varies between the two forms in most cases (9/10;) Br'er Rabbit (talk) 18:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ISBN 978-0-671-66068-3 is invalid
 * ISBN 978-0-671-66068-0 seems correct ;)
 * http://www.isbn.org/converterpub.asp
 * OK, my bad, OK to fix if you haven't already.  Montanabw (talk) 18:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * why bother, at this point? Br'er Rabbit (talk) 18:35, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that you do careful and good work; it's just that asking for what look like big changes that are not mandated by FA criteria during an FA run make the recipients want to scream and kill the messenger, especially if they are already dealing with a troll on other issues. I shouldn't have made that particular edit. In the long run, you'll get us all educated on the topic. Hang in there! Montanabw (talk) 19:09, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * FA criteria do not mandate anything. They are just hoops to jump through if you want the star, and access to the main page. That's what the FA game is all about; Kissing the Ring. If folks play by their raulz, maybe they can have time on the main page. It's about gate keeping and chasing the brass ring. All very Sisyphean, really; teh glory is . Br'er Rabbit (talk) 20:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Which basically allows for some flexibility in the details, I guess. I am reminded why I've never taken an article to FA on my own or with a team smaller than at least three people.  It's a quagmire.   Montanabw (talk) 20:23, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

editing Monty Roberts
I wanted to add some updates to Monty Roberts' entry, concerning the Diamond Jubilee of HM Queen Elizabeth II. I then noticed that there was a reference to denials by Monty Roberts' relatives of certain things in his biography, which I attempted to balance. I have had these items removed by you. At first I thought that maybe links to the person's site were not allowed, but now I note that when I reinstated the reference, that has gone as well.

I also noticed that the term "claims that" was used in referencing HM as the motivation for Roberts' first book. I added some recent information that supports his "claim" that HM was the instigator of his bringing his work to a wide audience.

I had thought that your removal of my contributions was "vandalism" but I now see that you have been editing this entry for some time.

I take exception to the comment that this is self–promotion, I am not Monty Roberts or part of his organisation, though I am familiar with his work and feel it is worthwhile. I would be pleased if you could correct this false assertion.

It really would help if you could give me some clarification as to what it is acceptable to add and where the lines are drawn. Talkinghorse (talk) 20:09, 4 October 2012 (UTC) Catherine Walker


 * The article already has plenty of material on Robert's views, there is no need to add that he disagrees with the people who disagree with him, and of course his web site will rebut these accusations If we want to get into that again, maybe see the past history of the article; there was once a big long section on the whole "horse whisperers and lies" controversy, quite a while back we who were working on the article decided to just toss all that out and leave a summary behind.  As for your additions, they may be correct, but the sources don't verify it -- The ITC link mentions nothing about Roberts, they mention, by name, a different "horse whisperer."  There is no source for the QE II "Patronage" of Roberts. Clearly, they have an acquaintance and she has asked him to consult, that's in a basically "reliable" course already in the article (the telegraph, though they got the bit bout Robert Redford wrong; Roberts was NOT the inspiration for "the Horse Whisperer" - that was someone else).  Another thing you need to realize (from your edits, looks like you are n the UK?) is that Roberts has a reputation here in the states for overstating his qualifications and for framing things as uniquely his own techniques that are not.  He's one of about a dozen famous "horse whisperer"/Natural horsemanship sorts, the most "Hollywood" of the bunch, and though a lot of what he says does reflect good horsemanship, he's not particularly unique or by any stretch of the imagination the first western horseman to advocate for humane treatment of horses; just one of the better self-promoters.   Montanabw (talk) 20:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

HM Queen Elizabeth is patron of around 600 causes. They add status to an organisation, and if HM visits or supports an organisation it will usually bring publicity. No payment is made by either side. Monty Roberts is patron of three UK charities: "Ride 4 Five" helps children in danger of social exclusion, by contact with horses; "Horseworld" is a horse rescue and "Shy Lowen" is a horse rescue that specialises in rehabilitation of teenagers with emotional and behavioural problems. You can find out more about Royal Patronage here http://www.royal.gov.uk/CharitiesandPatronages/Suggesting%20a%20Patronage/Suggesting%20a%20Patronage.aspx Talkinghorse (talk) 08:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC) Catherine Walker

Mvto
Mvto, enhesse! -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:27, 6 October 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * No sense messing around with trolls, head straight for the jugular.

Stirrups and horseshoes
I appreciate your work trying to improve the above articles. However, I would appreciate it if you would use the citatation templates to add your sources with proper formatting, be careful not to "orphan" existing refs, and most of all tag rather than remove sources. Add your material to supplement what's there, taking anything flat-out contradictory to the talk page. Things like "intern-authored" work may in some cases be perfectly fine, Dressage today, for example, is a well-respected magazine and it doesn't matter if it was an intern, a staff member or a freelancer; it's WP:RS. As for other sites, imperfect sources are better than none at all, though it is nice to improve them. Obviously we have all read WP:RS, but in many cases, scholarly or peer-reviewed material is not available, and sometimes even peer-reviewed material is wrong. (Had a ridiculous edit war once with someone who insisted that all rodeos begin with a parade down the main street of the town, because s/he read it in a book by a University professor.) These two articles are older ones that definitely will benefit from an upgrade, but I'd appreciate some care to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater; some material is probably correct, just not ideally sourced. Montanabw (talk) 07:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Look on the talk page for user:Anomie, as he said, his bot will fix the orphan sources, I asked today. I usually leave them to bots. I even asked him if I could invoke his bot to fix it.


 * Now, Dressage today is certainly not WP:RS or scholarly for centuries old items. That crowd may be respected for knowing how to "train horses, these days" but certainly not scholars or historians. As for what an intern writes, that is anyone's guess and how did we determine that the editors go and research what she wrote to double check it? For all I know from the magazine business it is driven by one keyword: "deadline". And the material I added to horseshoe came directly from WP:RS sources rather than intern written material. History2007 (talk) 08:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)


 * You are missing the point; a reliable source does not have to be a perfect source; obviously if another source is found that is better, that's great and it can be used to upgrade the article. So don't remove these sources.  Plus, the bots only get orphaned refs, they can't fix improperly cited ones. (Use the citation template that is in the editing box, it does it properly and you don't have to worry about formatting.  And anyway, some book called "50 great discoveries" or whatever it is doesn't necessarily qualify as an excellent peer-reviewed source, either; I've found plenty of mistakes in them.  That "Intern-written" material is oer se inferior is simply your own view, after all, I believe the theory of relativity was developed by a mere clerk in the Swiss patent office.   Montanabw (talk) 15:46, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Re:Your GA nomination of Encounter at Farpoint
Thanks for that, I'll have a look at it this evening. Miyagawa  (talk)  15:14, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Livestock
Good call on ... "Komodo dragon" made me LOL. <font style="font-family:Palatino, Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   19:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I figured if we didn't slow it down, suck-egg dawg would soon make an appearance!  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 20:19, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Br'er vanished
Edit war over a template. Means we will have to fix up the references in Russell and Sigurd Varian ourselves. Churn and change (talk) 23:45, 13 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I know a couple other folks who are good at this, I should be able to get 'er fixed OK. (I also think I can find Br'er if I really need to) No rush, though.  Montanabw (talk) 20:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Errr...he's not just vanished, he's currently indef-blocked and the subject of a perma-ban discussion at WP:AN. Just FYI. Dana boomer (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I can fix up the refs; got some code stuff to simplify some of it. I learned the conventions from Br'er, who fixed George M. Stratton, now neat and clean. Churn and change (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Go for it, I'm not great at that sort of thing. I can find 'em, but I hate formatting 'em.   Montanabw (talk) 17:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok. I have uploaded a cropped version of the Brown photo; if it is not ok, let me know, can try again. Also, landed on our previous GA reviewer's blacklist, the only reason given being "rabbiting". The Br'er vote, I guess. Churn and change (talk) 19:23, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, you won't be on his list forever; that's just Malleus being Malleus; he was the topic of a major AN or something a while back because he called a male admin a "c--t" and they are still arguing about it over on the pages about WP's civility policy. He's just rude like that a lot, usually to everyone who disagrees with him about anything at all, but it's generally not at all personal (Worm TT is a very respected editor, and Malleus is also being pissy at him).  He seems to carry no grudges though.  He actually voted against the ban on the Wabbit, so he isn't going to be a problem with us for that reason. I long ago learned to ignore the verbal emanations.   Montanabw (talk) 19:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * . Bishonen &#124; talk 20:56, 16 October 2012 (UTC).


 * Yeah, I will upload a new version of the cropped image. I think I can just download a few versions, and we can pick whichever is good. MF, yeah, I followed the fracas with Mark, who is an excellent editor (I worked a bit on William S. Sadler, his creation), not just a sysop. MF just took out the last posting of mine: "You misunderstood my posting. I said the simplest thing to do if you disagree with a copyedit of mine is to revert it. Why is that offensive? The 3RR mention was not a threat; I said I would *not* report any for ce reverts. What is "rabbiting"?" I guess the last question is what's confusing me, but anyway, never mind. Will just let it cool. Churn and change (talk) 19:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No clue on British slang, and I do find the dramah over there a bit much. (Patting on back, it's gonna be OK).   Montanabw (talk) 20:00, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The usual story
Hi Montanabw. Just a heads-up regarding the usual story. I think we may have to ask for admin help in the near future. This cannot go on much longer, at least not this way. Could you possibly keep an eye for more PAs just in case? I will do the same. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις 20:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)


 * On it. Cavalry en route.   Montanabw (talk) 03:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)


 * You are very kind. Thank you Montanabw. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις 03:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I want to make you aware of this
Hi. I think that you have a right to know about this message that came to me on my Commons talk page:. (In case you are wondering, no, I am not inclined to believe it.) --Tryptofish (talk) 21:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Reply at your talk page. Thank you for being courteous and professional.   Montanabw (talk) 22:02, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Technicality in a lead
Hey Montanabw, I know you love all things horses, but I've got a question about a subject that isn't at all related to horses, but there's a reason I'm asking you just the same. You see, there's a discussion going on about whether or not the lead of Folding@home is too technical. WP:TECHNICAL was referenced. I want to make sure that the lead is reasonably understandable by a general reader, and while I think it's fine, I'd like some feedback from someone who AFAIK knows very little about the subject to begin with. As you may be aware I'm trying to get it to FA status. Rosetta@home the only similar article, and it's lead is even more technical. Care to take a look and tell me what you think? :) &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 22:44, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll give it the ignorant layperson's view and if I can be of help will give you some comments. Montanabw (talk) 23:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's just that the people that I'd usually talk to about the article already know about it. I've been looking at the leads for other somewhat-technical FA-class articles (Rosetta@home, electron, etc) and their leads seem much more technical than this one, but still I'd like to make sure it's understandable. :D &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 01:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm in airports and on layovers at the moment, so patience please -- may not get to it until tomorrow sometime, but will try tonight... Montanabw (talk) 02:02, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow. No real hurry; be sure to get some sleep to avoid jet lag and all that. Safe travels! &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 02:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Glad you like it. I only edit cool articles. :) &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 03:39, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If you could please give your opinion on the Folding@home nomination in Today's featured article/requests, I'd sure appreciate it. :) &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 23:41, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Never mind, it was abruptly scheduled for November 1st. Anyway, I'm happy with that. :) &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 00:36, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Itteh bitteh kitteh
Thaz nice piccur ov kat u has thar. I has always lovd kats. --teh itteh bitteh kitteh committeh :) &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 22:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Awesome essay
I just wanted to share with you this awesome essay: User:Giano/A fool's guide to writing a featured article. It may be four years old, but this guy has one the best writing styles I have ever seen. Just wow. I was especially amused by the "Your day on the main page" section because that's what's going to happen to me in a few days and I'm just terrifically excited about that. :) &bull; Jesse V.(talk) 06:43, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Reworking refs in William Robinson Brown
I redid it in my sandbox: User:Churn and change/sandbox/Brown. How does it look? It is actually easier to do it at one shot than piece-by-piece. This time I did it on-wiki, copying the text off-wiki messed up the special characters. Churn and change (talk) 01:12, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Churn. Basically I sort of freaked over whatever bot changed all the punctuation, killing the umlauts and tossing the apostrophes, which wasn't your fault, but then the rename of the sources also threw me, and when I got to the bibliography reformat, I decided to hit "reset" until we could talk this over.  I dislike the new bibliography section the most; it's big and clunky, the breaking out of different types of sources looks awkward; alphabetical by author then title is more standard.  I realize some biographies on wiki break out the sources more, but IMHO it actually makes it more of a challenge for the reader to find the sources if they are not listed alphabetically. Second, the reformatting of the refs gives them long, clunky names - though some of the earlier names were equally illogical.  When possible, my perfect world would be footnotes to books with author (or a 1-2 word short title if unauthorized), year, page # and that's it, nothing more fancy unless there are multiple works by the same author or works by two authors with the same last name.  Web and periodicals would simply be full cite in refs, not necessarily in the sources section, though I am flexible on that point.  Third, I am forced to use sfn, that doesn't mean I'm very comfortable with it, so the simpler it is done, the better.  The styles I am familiar with are those we have at Appaloosa; both FA and TFA and made it through the gauntlet without a peep about ref formatting -- but "teh wabbit" helped. I am also OK with the idea of putting all the ref cites at the bottom of the article, as was done at Yogo sapphire and a GA I handled almost solo other than some help from teh wabbit (aka Jack/Br'er), Sheila Varian. None of these are the same,but  at least I sort of understand the markup syntax.  Now that "teh wabbit" is banned, we've lost the only editor I know who actually understands the nuances of sfn in a way that is simple and streamlined.   I guess my take is this:  Keep the bibliography in a standard from, not broken into categories. I'm OK with moving the text refs all to the bottom (though it makes editing by section a real bear sometimes) and having the article body refs all link to stuff at the end. I like the sources sections to be in smaller type, looks neat and compact.   It seems to work better to have the web sources and some of the newspapers and magazines linked with full cites within the ref list only, keeping mostly the books in the Sources list, but I guess I'm not super against having everything in the bibliography; again, the print world often does that, the wiki-world, less so.  I have mixed feelings about titling sections "references/sources" versus "footnotes/bibliography' -- the latter is what I am more familiar with from print sources, the former seems to be the default of most articles under the WPEQ umbrella on wiki. I can live with either. In the print world, I'm mostly a Chicago Manual of Style person, though Harv stuff here is doable. Thoughts?  Montanabw (talk) 18:35, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok, I thought breaking sources up by category was some kind of FA requirement based on what I saw at William S. Sadler. If not, yeah, I think the indirection makes sense largely where we need to specify either page numbers or timepoint (for the video). In those cases moving the source to the "sources" section helps avoid duplication in the "references" section. By and large, I am going to leave the structure alone; had come across some other things I will look at—the name, for example, was Upham in one and Uphem in another. Churn and change (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * No, not FA requirement, though some reviewers might suggest it, there is no mandated format, only that the format chosen be consistent. I think the video needs another look at how to handle it; I'm not sure we have the formatting properly done, as there is both script and producer to consider.  I'm good with avoiding redundancy and keeping the look clean and elegant.  Montanabw (talk) 19:32, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Oppose
Thank you for your look at this with an open mind and voicing oppose to the main stream! People like you make me stay, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC) <div style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; background-color: #ddd; border: 5px solid #ddd; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 0.5em;"><p style="text-align: center; margin-bottom: 0;">'tis the season
 * treats for you ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Possible stub consolidation project...
So, I was lurking around in Category:Horse stubs today, and realized there are quite a few stubs that deal with afflictions of the leg/hoof in horses. Things like shoe boil, quarter crack, stocking up, windpuffs, osselet, etc. I starting thinking about the possibility of creating an article where all of these little articles could be merged to, plus descriptions of other issues that already have larger articles (laminitis, etc). Add in a description of how strong but fragile the equine leg is, and I think there might be the possibility for at least a B-class article. Thoughts on this? My main issue was what to name it... Maybe a generic Leg of the horse or something, which would incorporate skeletal structure, strength/fragility, injuries/diseases, etc.? Equine forelimb anatomy might be a good starting place, maybe move it to Equine limbs or something? I think it would be a good way to clean up some stubs that have been hanging around for quite a while and possibly build a pretty decent article out of them. And, if someone ever decides that they have the sources to build a GA out of quarter crack, they can always be un-merged. Thoughts, comments, problems? Dana boomer (talk) 23:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Horse limb stubs


 * There is already an article: Lameness (equine).  You may be right there is a good argument to move stuff there until big enough for a spinoff. The forelimb anatomy article is sort of a content fork to nowhere, given no parallel article on the hind leg, but that's a different problem.  Montanabw (talk) 23:40, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Right, but stuff like shoe boils might not necessarily lead to lameness, plus, I don't think that's really the place for skeletal stuff... Dana boomer (talk) 23:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm open to ideas, basically, I'm good with consolidating stubs and the health care articles have needed work for a long time. My thinking is to first see how much we CAN merge into the lameness article and create redirects from all those stubs first, then see what's left (i.e. shoe boils).  I think that the line between lameness and leg "ailments" or blemishes can be a fine line, (splints being a classic example) so I'd be most inclined to eventually consolidate all limb "ailments" together and not venture too far into OR land to define what is "lameness" and what is not.  (As we go through sources, we may find a good term for a new article title)   There is also all the work Countercanter did; i.e. Muscular system of the horse, Skeletal system of the horse, etc.  Not sure what we can add into those, but there is some potential there as well.  I don't think we can really merge much into Equine anatomy, which is an overview article and as it sits is an OK summary though not perfect, and I've had a rewrite of equine conformation languishing in a sandbox for ages because that is such an ENORMOUS project.    Montanabw (talk) 16:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * After looking some more at Lameness (equine), I think that what we need is a completely new article (from a Google search, Equine limbs or Limbs of the horse, the latter matching the current setup for skeletal system, etc. Then, lameness, equine forelimb anatomy and all of the above stubs (plus probably a few more) can be merged there. Quarter crack might be better at Horse hoof, though. I'll probably start playing around with this over the weekend - I'll create a starter article and then start tossing up merge tags. One article covering anatomy of fore and hind limbs, a general overview of lameness, and a place to merge in all the ailment stubs would be much better than the scatter shot approach currently in effect. And, with all of the sources I saw in the quick Google search I did, it probably wouldn't be that hard to take to GA. Dana boomer (talk) 23:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, so what about Equestrian drill team, Pas de deux (dressage) and Quadrille (dressage)? Multiple stubs on multiple horse performances doesn't really seem, necessary... Dana boomer (talk) 00:33, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Multiple horse performances


 * I'd say leave them for now. The drill team article is worthy to be expanded by someone who wants to tackle it, nothing really out there it can be merged into. The dressage ones are trickier, but I also think are adequate to be expanded eventually; the dressage article now is long and a bit tedious, and these group performances are sort of a different gig than traditional competitive dressage.  Montanabw (talk) 16:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Augeron horse
May I ask, why did you add mergeto on to the Augeron horse article? Yes, the breeds are similar (as they are just the same colour and come from the same region of France), but I do not think that it should be merged to another article. Thanks. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 20:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, discuss it at the talk page. They appear to be identical in looks, color and origin, other than a breed registry that insists on a regional restriction.  My comparison is to Andalusian horse and the Carthusian horse substrain, where it's the same breed, same origins, same history, but politics intervened and a few people took all their marbles and went home.  There's a similar issue with "Egyptian Arabians" which are, in short, just Arabians with political backers for one set of bloodlines.  Montanabw (talk) 20:30, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Brown
Hi Montanabw, I started reading Brown and made some copyedits... you might want to double-check them. Apologies in advance if I went too far/messed things up. I've vacationed in the White Mountains enough times that I think I owe Brown for preserving Franconia Notch :) Mark Arsten (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Section for the peer review
Looks like we are in the Natural Sciences and Math part. I can't find any good section though, other than "General." Churn and change (talk) 20:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I picked that one because of the forestry and horse thing both being "agriculture" more or less. Open to changes,but I think we'll get a reviewer faster if we target it.  Montanabw (talk) 20:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Impulsion
It seems like you're being unnecessarily and unhelpfully obstructionist with me. It's been nearly a month since I first came to your talk page and a week since I posted in the article talk page (where you implied you would answer my questions). Now there's your strange behavior at impulsion (horse) where you're reverting me for shortening a quote. A third party may be in order here. — Æµ§œš¹ <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"> [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 14:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Nothing strange at all. Look in the mirror, please.  You have what I can only call an "obsession" with going through wikipedia and reverting every single instance of the phrase "term used to describe" that you find -- even when, as in this case -- it's a DIRECT QUOTE from the source itself, put inside quotation marks, with cite to the precise point, and so on.  It isn't so much that I object that you shortened a quote, it's that you have a real hang up here, and someone needs to stage an intervention to get you off of this addiction to removing a completely innocuous phrase just because it bothers you.  Where you've done so in some other articles recently, I've left it be because your rephrase did no harm and may even have been helpful.  But you've altered a direct quote this time, which seems to be a bit obsessive.  Montanabw (talk) 19:24, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * So there's nothing actually wrong with my edit. You just don't like my broader efforts at removing a particular phrase that exhibits bad writing.  I don't think I'm the one who needs an intervention here. — Æµ§œš¹ <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"> [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]  19:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, you are twisting my words again, I did not say there is nothing wrong with that particular edit, I implied that there may be times it's acceptable to shorten a quote, but in this case, your obsession is getting in the way of any rational discussion. I have invited a neutral user with an excellent grasp on wording and grammar issues to drop by here and comment if he feels like it. I see no reason to go racing off to the "dramahz" boards over this, I'm just very, very, very tired of dealing with you. Aren't there thousands of other articles on wiki where you can delete "term used to describe" to your heart's content and give the horse articles (and me) a break for awhile?  Montanabw (talk) 20:21, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you fail to see how your own behavior is contributing to your stress level. What I've asked of you is fairly simple, yet you've declined.  The process with dispute resolution need not be dramatic at all.  It will bring in multiple perspectives on the matter, which you and I both desire; I, because I feel like my edits are unproblematic and you because you feel like I have been twisting your words as a method of deflection.  — Æµ§œš¹ <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"> [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]  21:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You are now engaging in WP:BAIT behavior. And I have now reviewed your contribs for the last couple months; almost all you do, almost all day long, is remove "term used to describe" from wikipedia pages.  You have an obsession.  I have no interest in dealing with you, and it is clear from the last time you landed on my page that even other people weighing in has no impact on your view that you are right and everyone else is wrong.  Now please GET OFF MY TALK PAGE AND STAY OFF.  If you raise an issue on an article's talk page, I will choose whether I wish to engage with you there.   Montanabw (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Budweiser Clydesdales
Hey, I restructered that section and added a couple of citations p  b  p  05:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Great! Thanks! Montanabw (talk) 19:43, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

broken calendar?
The date of your barnstar is odd. NE Ent 01:11, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeguada Militar de Jerez de la Frontera
Okay. I have internet and I can start translating for you. Do you have any sources selected already? — <font color="#333333">ΛΧΣ <font color="#336699">21™ 16:44, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Hanc, I think step one is to pop over to the article, peek at the Spanish language sources used already (see footnotes) and see if what I put in does, in fact, correspond with that was in there. I used Google translate and made some educated guesses. I think we can move the conversation to the article talk page. Montanabw (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. Let's do that then :) — <font color="#333333">ΛΧΣ <font color="#336699">21™ 17:49, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I will start checking the sources today. I was doing some other critical stuff that I had awaiting for me. — <font color="#333333">ΛΧΣ <font color="#336699">21™ 00:06, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. I have checked some references and information seems to be pretty accurate, although there is info there that you haven't added :P I may translate some for you this week [I am a bit busy] and post them somewhere for you to add. — <font color="#333333">ΛΧΣ <font color="#336699">21™ 20:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Great, feel free to park it on the article talk page (noting source); I'd be delighted to see what you have. I'd be particularly glad to see things that clarify the geography, "on the road somewhere between two towns, by a municipality" is the best google translate would give me, and I wasn't happy with that...   Montanabw (talk) 20:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Correcting reference --Students--
Thanks, references have been corrected.Drsusan1968 (talk) 22:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for getting that, much appreciated! Montanabw (talk) 22:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Precious (in style)
<div style="margin: auto; max-width: 60em; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba( 192, 192, 192, 0.75 ); border-radius: 1em; border: 1px solid #a7d7f9; margin-bottom: 1em; padding: 0.5em 1em 1em; color: black;" class="ui-helper-clearfix"> <div style="float: right; margin-left: 1em; background-color: #ddd; border: 5px solid #ddd; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 0.5em;"> galloping support

Thank you for your tireless support and teamwork and for your wonderful sandbox rules for a better world!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

repeated in br'erly thanksgiving style, thank you that it still applies, awesome Wikipedian of 13 January 2010 and 18 February 2012, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:43, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Gerda (corrected the typo!) You are "the" greatest!   Montanabw (talk) 23:55, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Yeguada Militar de Jerez de la Frontera
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:02, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Organic food
It will probably cost me a block, but the truth must be said. I have now AfD'ed the article... <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 01:13, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

As expected, all your edits are reverted with a claim of WP:MEDRS. By now, they have fled into the safe harbour of the page protection. Maybe a good time to start an RfC about using WP:RS or WP:MEDRS? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 08:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll post at talk. I see it now has been locked down for 10 days and, as usual, the "wrong" version got protected.  ;)  I'll see if we can get a consensus at talk to unlock, but if that fails (I'd say give it 5 days) and you want to try another drahmaz board, I can help you find an appropriate one that just focuses on content and sources, but I think the issue needs to be narrowed to the MEDRS vs RS dispute.  Once that is settled, the rest is just a POV spat, which is easier to deal with.  That said, I don't have a lot of energy to devote to a drama board dispute, and I've tangled with one of the other users before; they just will not drop the stick. So I may be an uneven ally.   So if you want to push it, maybe see if you can find others who work on articles in this area who can also offer advice and support.  (Being careful, of course, not to run afoul of WP:CANVASS and WP:MEATPUPPET.)  Montanabw (talk) 18:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

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Johnny Grant
FYI- are you familar with this source, I just ordered a copy:

Very Close to Trouble: The Johnny Grant Memoir, 9780874221398, Meikle, Lyndel and Grant, Johnny --Mike Cline (talk) 15:39, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I have met the author, though I haven't read more than excerpts on that particular book, though. But Lyndel is a well-known and well-respected local historian of agriculture, a researcher and writer. She's literally a park ranger, has been stationed at and worked at the Grant-Kohrs Ranch for decades. I think her official job is something like "interpretive historian." No one will be more knowledgeable on the topic of Johnny Grant or the Grant-Kohrs ranch. She also has an absolutely wicked sense of humor: She's also a co-author on this and she writes a newspaper humor column. Also can sometimes be found at the Avon Cafe sipping coffee with the locals on her way over to Helena to do research at the museum. No wait, she IS one of the locals...makes absolutely horrible puns... Montanabw (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I weep with joy
Check this out: Finnhorseblog.com. It's not just any old blog, it published previously Finnish-only texts in (amateur, but legible) English translations, including some current refs for Finnhorse! --Pitke (talk) 01:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Hooray! That is delightful. Now, when are you going to help me dive in and do the expansion of the English from your well-done rollkur article from Finnish wiki? Montanabw (talk) 17:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

"as a rule, he only insults those who actually deserve it."
LOL @ that - if only it was a rule. The only rule we have about insulting people, sadly says the exact opposite, so I'd expect some flak for that if I were you. PS, I can't see a single Randy type or even content issue in that incident, whcih rather undermines your point too, for me at least. Mobeus Robotica (talk) 21:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I'm thinking of several situations that are coming together at once here. Basically, I see a pattern where the double standard is going into high gear:  the trolls seem to be winning by claiming that they are victims, and the decent folks who sometimes blow their corks after being baited beyond endurance get unjustly punished.  Also, the people who put themselves on the line by creating content can be hammered by the Randy from Boise sorts, who just take a WP:CHEESE set of arguments.  (not the same as other people called Randy, or people from Boise in general, most of whom are really excellent human beings)  Sigh...  Montanabw (talk) 21:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd actually say he insults people who have earned it through their own conduct, but that's just me. Intothatdarkness 21:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Like Into said...  Montanabw (talk) 21:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps "insults" isn't the word I personally would have chosen - but there certainly are enough people on wiki making foolish, childish, and idiotic edits; and they very well should be called out on them. — Ched : ?  21:40, 19 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Quite, Ched. And what frustrates me (and actually limits my willingness to contribute more here) is the inability (or unwillingness) of the 'system' to take a good look at the root causes (baiting, supposedly civil POV pushing, and so on) of some users speaking out. Instead they focus on the speaker and not the causes. Intothatdarkness 21:44, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's like a middle school playground. Or, if I may, the island in Lord of the Flies. (Jack, we miss ya!)   Montanabw (talk) 21:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And, sadly, I'm not sure there's the stomach for change here. It's far too easy to focus on the individual and the last response as opposed to actually looking at the whole picture. It's not just about civility anymore (if in fact it ever really was about civility). Intothatdarkness 22:10, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I just keep saying Illegitimi non carborundum over and over and over. I'm NOT going to let the assoles drive me away!   Montanabw (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The balancing act there, of course, is not to be seen as the asshole. And that's where it becomes...complicated. Especially when the culture is set up to encourage those who wish to rise within it to parrot the manners of those who ignore/tolerate/don't understand or comprehend the passive aggressive and bullying side of the culture. Intothatdarkness 23:19, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I must say that the Lord of the Flies analogy is often apt; the middle-schoolers are in charge here - regardless of actual choronological age; it's an interesting study in true anarchy; WP:NOTDEMOCRACY is not a pretty thing to see; the place has to develop and learn a rule of law and become some sort of functioning democracy. The other two options are to restore a crown to Jimbo or devolve into something with the reliability level of facebook.   Montanabw (talk) 22:14, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know that I'd consider it true anarchy. I think a better parallel might be the period in Russian between the two revolutions. A minority has managed to designate itself as a majority and is actively (if an in uncoordinated manner) trying to drive the actual majority into silence. I think the clash actually comes between the factions (and I use that term very loosely, as I don't think there's any actual coordination aside from the sense of...and I love this old term..."fellow travelers") who expect some sort of law and order (hence the strong reaction to the position of Admin) and those who actually enjoy and thrive in the lawless space (some of the admins who provoke strong reactions and then hide behind "admin isn't a big deal" provide one example of this). And some would argue that Wikipedia already IS as reliable as Facebook (and given some of the history articles I've looked at that are as off base in many ways as Frontier Strip and Comanche War I'm not sure that they're wrong...). Intothatdarkness 15:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So who gets to be Trotsky or Snowball? All animals are equal, but some more equal than others?   Montanabw (talk) 19:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Trotsky was a firebrand speaker who believed in perpetual revolution, so I guess we can fill in the blanks... But it does make sense in that this place is in fact a dictatorship of the proletariat of sorts. And the true worry is not that a Lenin of sorts might appear, but that from the mass of apparatchiks a Stalin might pop up. As policy essays and thoughts shift more and more into doctrine and prescriptive formulas, the person who can wield those to advantage becomes more powerful in a subtle yet real sense. That was Stalin's strength, actually. Not that this amorphous mass could produce a single leader, of course...but a collective that functions in a Stalin-style role could be a danger. In that sense it's interesting to watch. Intothatdarkness 19:44, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So long as we survive the Queen of Hearts and live to edit another day. Truly good quality content of an encyclopedia IS a battle worth fighting, at least up to a point.   Montanabw (talk) 19:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ya know...this - the gender generic piece could be bronzed as a textbook example of civil incivility. Just happened to stumble across it, yet the civil POV type would be the last one admonished/blocked if anything came of it. I know you have a great deal of experience when it comes to dealing with that particular wiki-species, though. Intothatdarkness 21:41, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Gypsy Vanner horse
"Basically, someone in the USA discovered that these horses sell for big bucks", in Britain the people paying the largest money for such animals are often French butches a fact that always gets British people upset when it is mentioned in the press (Horse meat makes comeback as healthy and trendy dish in France, 2007). maybe it should be "Horse eating...." not "Cheese eating..." :-O

While looking for an example I came across this site which has a designation of coloured and here is an example (with a price which I wouldn't pay)! It has a link to another page that may be of interest to you Cob -- PBS (talk) 23:07, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I see the bug has bit on your side of the pond too, now! Krazy Ko(u)lord Kobs! (smiles)   Montanabw (talk) 23:19, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Some reliable sources about Gypsy Vanner, it's cool (fr page is now near GA candidate : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_Vanner). But please don't imagine we all eat your horses (especially english horses, most of them com from Canada and Mexico... and it's heartbreaking. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 23:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the ones from the USA are loaded with all sorts of drugs not suitable for human consumption, too, just FYI.  Montanabw (talk) 23:28, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I know and I'm fighting for changing the law, here an extract from the article with google translate : Under the title "I eat horse," a journalist of Le monde 2 has claimed that this dietary practice of hippophagy "is the culture of our country." Does he forgot that : during most of our history, France banned horse meat because of this strong Christian taboo ? By the nineteenth century hippophagy is promoted, but now times are changing! The horse became a companion of sports and leisure over the last fifty years, precisely since hippophagy began to decline.: 60% hippophages less between 1980 and 2001 (when mad cow disease). Since the fall continues, slowly ... but surely. According to Interbev Equins, horse meat will be soon a part of passing inglorious history. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 23:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am sure you also know that the horsemeat consumption thing is sort of the fastest cheap shot others take at the French, so there's another good reason, I suppose. I have such mixed feelings on the horsemeat issue because I do care about horses so much and think that the last couple of weeks prior to an animal being actually slaughtered are some of the most brutal conditions horses are subjected to, and as such, it is a betrayal of a companion animal.  Yet, I've had interesting talks with User:Pitke about how Finland has a different view; that Finnish horse lovers at one time actually banded together to PROMOTE horsemeat as a way to keep unwanted horses from being left to just starve to death or be worked to death even if sick or lame.  And here in the USA, the unwanted horse issue is hotly debated with and without the horsemeat issue being tangled up with it.  I don't know; what DOES one do with a 1000 lb animal that lives 30 years?   I've owned and loved a number of geriatric horses, and those last few years can be pretty high-maintenance, yet, I felt I owed it to them. But if others don't have the resources to devote to such case, I don't know if I can really judge them.  Truly a conundrum.  Montanabw (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Greetings from Berlin, N.H.
Thank you very much for your work on the article about W.R. Brown! It means a lot to see such a large article about a man who lived in my town, and a family who helped the City of Berlin so much....THANK YOU SO MUCH! --Russianamerican1 (talk) 20:29, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It was fun, and I hope to take the article to WP:FA in a few weeks when some of the other drama around wikipedia calms down. Eventually, we'd like to take some of the additional material I've dug up while researching this and expand the Brown Paper Company article too, would you like to help?   Montanabw (talk) 20:32, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Sure I'd love to help on that! I did some of the stuff thats on that, but its still not the greatest. Its better then when I first came across it but it could be so much bigger. I know that the Brown Co. owned land in La Tuque, Quebec and Brown Co. also started a village called Shawano in Florida, which is now a ghost town. Yeah so when ever you want help just ask. --Russianamerican1 (talk) 20:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The big thing is to get, find, and use (with proper formatting) good sources. I guess the first thing I was going to do was to take some of the relevant stuff from WR Brown and add it to the Brown paper article too; would be just a copy/paste with minor rewriting, but source material already there.  Feel free to do that.  There's a template I'll need to add to the talk page of Brown paper if we take material, but will wait to add it until it happens. Also see the talk page for a mention of some other sources that are more about Brown paper co than WR Brown; most of the sources we used in the WR Brown article are available on the web, some are really good for the Company as well.   Montanabw (talk) 20:59, 30 December 2012 (UTC)