User talk:Paine Ellsworth/Archive 13

Move template?
Hello Paine. I see you have proposed moving Template:R from title without diacritics to Template:R to diacritics. While this may sound like a good idea on paper, have you considered that {R from title without diacritics} has 388,839 transclusions? Moving the template could have dire consequences on the server load. I have removed your move request from the template for the time being while this aspect is considered. Or has discussion already taken place somewhere? -- Diannaa (talk) 20:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, Diannaa – I don't know how much of an effect such a move would have, but I would imagine that, since no change is actually being made to the template, there will be no pages where this template is transcluded that will need to be changed. In this respect, though, at first I was concerned about the deletion of R to diacritics to make way for the move, but that page is only transcluded 442 times.  Even so, it might be better if the main template were seamlessly moved without deleting R to diacritics – that's of course something only an administrator can do. – Paine  21:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I strongly suggest you post at WP:VPT so that the effect of the move on the servers can be discussed. You could take down the site with this kind of thing. -- Diannaa (talk) 21:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, here is the link to my post: WP:VPT.  And thank you, Diannaa, for helping me be careful. – Paine  22:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for helping protect the server kittens! I just noticed there's a notice on the template documentation, "If you plan to make breaking changes to this template, move it, or nominate it for deletion, please notify Twinkle's users/maintainers at Wikipedia talk:Twinkle as a courtesy, as this template is used in the standard installation of Twinkle. Thank you!" -- Diannaa (talk) 05:08, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Diannaa! I have a kitten (or does she have me?) who looks very much like the one in the photo above.  Twinkle notification has been completed. – Paine  08:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You can see my cat here. Her name is Ninja. She is very lively and restless -- Diannaa (talk) 13:38, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Diannaa – Ninja looks very similar to my Butter, especially the eye color. Butter has a pillar of white on half her face.  I think many people don't realize how distinctive cats are, both in appearance and in their individual behavior.  Did you see TheDJ's response at the VP? – Paine  15:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes I did! his userpage shows he is in the know, so the move can be completed once you hear back from the Twinkle crew. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:58, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Great! and I've learned in the past that the Twinkle people are mostly interested in being notified so they can adjust Twinkle if needed. They seldom respond to notifications, although I do continue to watch for their responses.  Hugs and kittens! and Best of Everything to You and Yours! – Paine  00:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Template rename server effect
In order to make a template name more concise and consistent with its sister template, R from diacritics, I have proposed that template R from title without diacritics be renamed to R to diacritics. An administrator, Diannaa, has raised the issue that template R from title without diacritics has more than 388,000 transclusions and that such a page move might have an adverse effect on our server load. Diannaa suggested that I raise this issue here to discuss this and find out more about the effects on the servers. So the question would be, will it be okay to move template R from title without diacritics to (presently one of its aliases) template R to diacritics? – Paine 22:15, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 11:25, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That's good, and thank you, Th e DJ! The main page to be moved was last edited on 19 June, and the redirect, which has been transcluded only about 440 times, was last edited about 18.5 hours ago.  Should we wait a bit longer?  Please forgive my ignorance of the timing range within which it is best to wait.  Is there a guide on MW somewhere?  Seems something this important should have a policy, don't you think? – Paine  15:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * , —Th e DJ (talk • contribs)
 * Yes, thank you – I could find no policy nor guideline on MW except that they have two places in the Terms that allude to not being disruptive toward the servers, but no details. Quite possibly they would rather not put bad ideas in people's minds, for while the vast majority wouldn't dream of being disruptive, MW does seem to have its fair share of disgruntled ex-editors from the past who would just love to be able to edit a high-risk template or two.  Anyway, thanks again and Best of Everything to You and Yours! – Paine  15:49, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


 * — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you again for this, TheDJ – I hope you don't mind I've brought this discussion here for future reference. Joys! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 16:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Just another question
Hope you're in good spirits! There has been something that has bothered me about our recent VPT discussion about making edits to high-risk templates. Say an editor (could be me or anyone) makes an edit to a template that's transcluded to 2 or 3 million pages. Now, say that even after sandboxing and testing, the edit turns out to need reversion. This is not just a minor edit (I've made some of those, and I just wait a day or two and then revert it), let's say this is an edit that really needs to be reverted quickly. I have seen other editors revert in such cases, but I've still wondered about the effect on the server load. So the question is: does the second edit (the revert) cause the server to drop it altogether and move on to the next job? or does that second edit jam the server just as any other second edit within a few minutes of the first edit would do? – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 20:42, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The job queue has some simple optimizations, one of which are a few 'deduplication' techniques. So both jobs would keep running, but a page will only be refreshed once, if that is enough. The '1st' job would update the page after the '2nd' change, and the '2nd' job would see that the page in question was already updated after the '2nd change' had been made that triggered job 2 and drop it, effectively treating it as '1 change to 3 million pages + the pages processed between change 1 and change 2'. Since the pages before and after are equal, you wouldn't notice a difference. But they do extend the queue, so it might be visible due to the pace with which OTHER changes on the queue are processed.
 * However, this is again exactly the point of the queue, to 'pace' the server so that you don't have to concern yourself with fearing to harm the server. Never avoid making 'proper' changes for the sole purpose of performance. But do realize that large cascading changes do have an effect in 'freshness' of page information and that at the scale of English Wikipedia this can cause huge 'long tails' in processing changes, that might become noticeable to readers and editors alike. Thinking before acting can be advantageous. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 21:14, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, there's a nice sigh of relief! I think I'll continue to wait a day or two to revert the minor bloopers, and I won't feel as if I might shut down the project for reverting a major error if absolutely necessary.  Thank you ever again (more than you know!)  Joys! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  21:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Paine!
I noticed that you are using AWB. I have made a preparsed list of about 20.000 articles that contain (possible) typos that can be fixed with AWB. Would you like to help fix some of them? If so, please remove the ones you want to do from the list, so that other people don't have to look at them again. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 05:57, 17 July 2015 (UTC) p.s. Jeri Ellsworth is awesome!


 * Hi, The Quixotic Potato – Thank you for asking! I do use AWB in a very limited fashion, because I just started using it and I'm still getting familiar with it.  Right now I'm finishing up a project, so when that's completed, then we'll see.  That's a very good idea to make a list like that!  Have you joined the Guild yet?  Again, thank you very much, and Joys! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  06:05, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Paine! AWB is pretty awesome, isn't it? If your project is finished, please remember me :-) I am not really a copyeditor, I just fix typos. Most potatoes are quite bad at editing copy to be honest, but we are good at hunting typos. This probably has something to do with the history of the potato, but I don't know much about that. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 06:19, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * So far, I would say that AWB can be very useful for some tasks, but it does have its drawbacks, and there are many cases where I'd rather edit manually. I began editing Wikipedia as an IP and did so for several years before I registered.  Back then all I did was fix typos and remove vandal edits.  As you know it's a neverending job, and I still do it when I'm actually reading an interesting article.  Thanks again and Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  06:44, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Everything has its drawbacks, except cats. You can use AWB to edit manually too; if you don't like the edit that AWB proposes then you can simply change it. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 19:18, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Astrophysics
Your recent discussion at Talk:Astrophysics motivated me to wrap up some unfinished projects in the History section. Obviously there's more to be done after Payne-Gaposchkin, but I'm done with major additions for now. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 00:47, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That's happened to me a few times here at the enwp, too. I'll be talking with someone and then become inspired to go back to something or start something new.  It's a good feeling and I'm glad to be a part of it!  So thank you for letting me know, and I wish only the best for you and yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  02:02, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused.
I'm Soapm162. I got your message and then I read a page that seemed to say I am blocked for six months because of multiple unconstructive edits. Perhaps the items on that list are examples of things that could happen if I don't comply with rules, or perhaps they DO apply to me and I'm essentially banned from editing anything. I'm not sure what that means, or why my very minor grammar, punctuation, and essentially benign changes are inappropriate. I have either misunderstood the rules or the process, or both. Can you explain? Soapm162 (talk) 04:21, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, Soapm162! No, not really, because I have no idea what your past edit history is.  I was just responding to your edit at Shirley Temple, an article on my watchlist, where you inserted the article "a" to make the sentence more sensible.  While that's not something to get you blocked, of course, any edits you made in the past might have something to do with it.  I hope you're able to work it out, and Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  09:14, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Interview for The Signpost
This is being sent to you as a member of WikiProject Templates

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Templates for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Thanks,  Rcsprinter123    (chinwag)  @ 09:39, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much,  Rcsprinter123  ! and Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  10:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Responses

 * WP:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-08-05/WikiProject report – Published, 5 August 2015

'''What motivated you to join the project? Do you have a particular interest or proficiency in maintaining templates?'''
 * Back when I joined, I was fascinated by the fact that even a small edit to a template has the power to affect every page to which it's transcluded, and I wanted to help manage the template namespace. I guess I've gained a little proficiency over the years, mostly just learning from other template editors. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>

Can you explain precisely what this project does and its scope?
 * The project takes on the responsibility of managing the template namespace. That is both what it does and it's scope. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>

Does WikiProject Templates collaborate with any other projects?
 * There is a list of collaborations on the project page in the section "Related WikiProjects", and there are probably several more that are "unofficial" or "informal", such as WikiProject Redirects and WikiProject Disambiguation. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>

How would you rate this project's success and participation?
 * Since templates are by their nature a delicate issue due to their potential to harm the overall Wikipedia project if misused, in my opinion my fellow project members, past and present, have done an admirable job of managing template namespace. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>

'''What are WikiProject Templates's most pressing needs? How can a new contributor help today?'''
 * There is a list of open tasks on the project page, and I would encourage new editors to read the project page, its talk page and other template-related project and help pages to learn as much as possible about template management. And then dig right in! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>

Anything else you'd like to add?
 * Just that working with other template editors on the project has been more than a rewarding experience, and I wish them and all the workers at The Signpost only the very best! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 10:19, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

New Rcat template and category created - feel free to check it out
Paine,

Just wanted to give you a heads-up, given that I know of your specialties with categorizing redirects. I just created Template:R from E number and Category:Redirects from E numbers. Feel free to check them out or tweak them. Steel1943 (talk) 00:37, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Piece o' cake. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>
 * Also, on a completely unrelated note, I believe that I've given up on my pipe dream of retiring from Wikipedia. So, I decided to just label myself "semi-retired" and leave it at that.  Steel1943  (talk)
 * That one reminds me of Mr. Miyagi in The Karate Kid who quipped, "Daniel san, grape on this side of road is okay; grape on that side of road is okay; grape in middle of road get squished. You karate 'yes', or you karate 'no'; you karate 'guess so', and you get squished just like grape."  Good to see you "back in the battle". – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  02:19, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

БетӀераб гьумер listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect БетӀераб гьумер. Since you had some involvement with the БетӀераб гьумер redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- Tavix ( talk ) 15:41, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you Tavix, for all these notifications!  Joys! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  17:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Коьртан АгӀо listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Коьртан АгӀо. Since you had some involvement with the Коьртан АгӀо redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- Tavix ( talk ) 15:41, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Сӕйраг фарс listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Сӕйраг фарс. Since you had some involvement with the Сӕйраг фарс redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- Tavix ( talk ) 15:42, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Тӗп страница listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Тӗп страница. Since you had some involvement with the Тӗп страница redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- Tavix ( talk ) 15:42, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

ဗဟိုစာမျက်နှာ listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect ဗဟိုစာမျက်နှာ. Since you had some involvement with the ဗဟိုစာမျက်နှာ redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- Tavix ( talk ) 15:43, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Paine, random question about cats and good ol' Wikidata...
I just thought about this ... have you ever given any consideration about being more active on Wikidata? I'm thinking about it myself, given that I'm starting to realize that Rcats and "properties" on Wikidata are essentially one in the same. Steel1943 (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you mean, since that page on properties doesn't seem to exist. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 21:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that Paine: I typed the link incorrectly, given that the page was in the equivalent of Wikipedia's "Wikipedia:" namespace. I corrected the link above. Here's the link here as well: Wikidata:Wikidata:Properties. Steel1943  (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Steel – it looks very interesting. I've had limited experience with Wikidata, which seems a very busy place.  I'll look into it.  Joys! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  01:40, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Democratic Party (United States)/meta/color#Template-protected edit request on 11 August 2015
You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Democratic Party (United States)/meta/color. Thanks. —GoldRingChip 01:18, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you intend to start an RfC? – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 01:44, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, this discussion apparently started without me, I didn't begin it and I'm staying out of it due to personal time constraints.—GoldRingChip 01:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No problemo, point is moot. Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 01:39, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Request for comment
An editor has asked for a discussion on the deprecation of Template:English variant notice. Since you've had some involvement with the English variant notice template, you might want to participate in the discussion if you have not already done so. — Godsy (TALK<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;"> CONT ) 07:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Godsy , for this notification, and Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  11:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Incoming links to Peace pipe
Since you have made Peace pipe a redirect to a disambiguation page, you are responsible for cleaning up the incoming links to that page, which now show up as errors in our system. Please fix all incoming links to Peace pipe before you do anything else in Wikipedia. bd2412 T 16:31, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, bd2412  – since my move request at Talk:Peace pipe (disambiguation) is not going well, I have retargeted the redirect to Calumet (pipe). – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  16:40, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That works just as well. I suspect that the three uses of "Peace Pipe" are all references to the Native American tradition anyway. bd2412  T 16:44, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Past-tensing Native Americans
This is a serious question. Why do you keep inserting text, or reverting to text, that places Native Americans and Native American cultures only in the past? I am concerned that you do not know enough about contemporary Native communities to be making some of the edits and assertions you are making. I sincerely hope that this is just an issue of you being unfamiliar with the issues and how this kind of writing affects the communities in question. - Co<font color= "#003878">rb<font color= "#145073">ie V  ☊☼ 16:48, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * My best answer is to recognize that you only have Wikipedia's best interests at heart when you edit. You need to realize that few people have an encyclopedic knowledge of Native Americans, and even fewer of those are Wikipedia editors.  So I don't expect to be seen as an expert on every article subject I edit, but I do know quite a bit about general editing of this reference work.  Your choice of titles, for example, just begs for a near-future page move to something else, because "Native American" is not really needed just to disambiguate "Ceremonial pipe".  And why that basic title?  Why not just Smoking pipe (ceremonial)? (since there is already an article on smoking pipes).  I do realize that two people even with the best of intentions will sometimes lock horns, and with harmonious actions, even they can come to a meeting of the minds.  Thank you for an essentially civil confrontation, except perhaps for the page move battle (I could have gone the rest of my life without that).  Joys! and Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  17:10, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You raise a good point about there being Smoking pipe so why not Smoking pipe (ceremonial). The only question is what will happen if other cultures consider their pipes ceremonial and want to add them, which will then necessitate rewrites and overhauls. But that discussion is best-suited for the article talk page. I am glad you acknowledge how few Wikipedians know anything about Native cultures. It is a frustrating situation; in an environment where majority generally rules, it often results with misinformation about Natives and Native cultures in articles. One of the reasons I went with the consensus among only four people on the article talk page is that random WP editors will almost certainly not have the background to make an informed call on this. Peace, - Co<font color= "#003878">rb<font color= "#145073">ie V  ☊☼ 19:02, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure it would be such a bad thing if there were some African ceremonial smoking pipes, and Asian, Indian, ancient European, and so on. Such a generally titled article can only be globally improved and made more informative.  The point is that judging by the present articles on Wikipedia about ceremonial pipe smoking, there aren't any that would require the article in question to have such a parenthetical qualifier, nor are there any potential articles of which you or I am aware.  If it turns out that such potential articles do exist, then they would probably receive their own article pages and use this pipe article in their See also sections, or something like that.  In any case I believe that, though I might not live to see it, systemic bias will eventually dwindle as more and more people reach a meeting of the minds.  Idealistic to the very end – that would be me.  – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  19:39, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Racist comments about Native Americans
Several editors have tried talking to you about this, and we've tried to be polite. But comparing your losing content dispute to being subjected to genocide is an appalling reversal, when you have been actively trying to disappear contemporary Native peoples and cultures from an article about Native sacred objects. Now you are calling Natives, "red men." If you don't know why that's offensive, again, you don't know enough to be mucking about in anything having to do with Natives. I have to back up the other editors here who have said you need to stop trying to edit articles on Native subjects. At first I thought it was just ignorance. Now I think it's much worse. - Co<font color= "#003878">rb<font color= "#145073">ie V  ☊☼ 16:18, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * And you are letting your keyboard get in the way of your mind's eye, my friend. It is you who have escalated this out of all proportion.  I just go along for the ride.  You will get what you want, no doubt, but at what price?  You will actually see this encyclopedia lose an important part of N. American heritage, and all because you just will not stop fighting a war that is long over. Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  16:23, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * And besides, it's very difficult for me to be "racist" when NA blood flows through my veins, dear one. You should read some of the few good quotes by Native Americans. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  16:31, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * And I am sure it was your great-great-grandmother who was a Cherokee Princess. For what it's worth, I'm not a drop Native, but I can still spot systemic bias when I see it.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:15, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I was once married to a one-quarter Cherokee, who has gone on to be a high-ranking officer in the United States Army – no small accomplishment for any person. Since bad blood often goes deeper than the surface non-indigenous vs. indigenous battles, I've always preferred to not divulge my ancestry.  One never knows who one deals with on the Internet.  And yes, Montanabw, you have spotted systemic bias, but I who have been with that project for years can tell you honestly that you've got it backward – turned around – and while you have been a constant voice of reason in the discussion, if you cannot see what I mean just by reading how the other participants want to turn this into something it's not, then there is no convincing you.  Joys! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  00:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)


 * My concerns are that you fail to understand that there is a problem with the concept of using a Norman French word that was primarily directed at people in the Great Lakes region to describe all ceremonial pipes across the entire continent of North America. I can accept that you choose not to disclose your own ancestry, and that is your right, which I respect, and to the extent I overdid the sarcasm, I will apologize, but in turn, your own disrespect in an edit summary like this is a concern as well.  As for what other participants' motives are, that is not my concern; I am concerned that you are not understanding the legitimacy of their views on the matter, a comment such as "a war that is long over" indicates that you are not understanding of the battles that tribal members and other people of Native identification face on a daily basis in many parts of the country.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:02, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the only thing I really fail to understand is all of the above. I fail to understand why you think that by keeping this title that helps readers as I was helped so many years ago by Britannica constitutes such a wide application of the term.  The limited application is made abundantly clear already in the article.  Your sarcasm was no problem – how could you know?  GregJackP had the audacity to try to issue a formal warning on my talk page that was already issued by CorbieV.  It was overkill and unwarranted, so that editor deserved a "pffft".  And the wars are long over, which is a statement of fact.  The young today think they have it so bad.  The vast majority of Native Americans are like CorbieV and myself, only part Native American.  If those young people could walk a mile in a long-dead, full-blooded NA's shoes, maybe they would see how much better it is today – maybe they would see that to make it even better, they should realize that they are Americans first and Natives second.  I know too many men and women of NA descent who have risen above the old ways and made a good life for themselves in this country.  It is hard for me to abide the disrespect shown for the old ways and the old words on that talk page.  The people at one time respected their elders, but now they don't know who to respect so they respect no one.  That is the sad part.  Sorry, sometimes I ramble and talk too much. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  09:36, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Here, this article expanded beyond the upper midwest and the limited scope of the word. Lots of things written 50 or more years ago use language that is unacceptable today. We know better.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
 * but Holy ___ (smoke). Did you just say "Americans first and Natives second"?  OK, if you don't view that as an extremely racist comment, then there really is no convincing you to tone down your rhetoric! First off, Native American status is a political designation in American law, not a racial one- each tribe sets its own standards for who they enroll and thus, who can legally claim to be "Indian" as a matter or law.  Second, Native people happened to be here long before Europeans "discovered" the continent, long before there was an "America" and the law of the United States has long enshrined the unique political status of Native people in its statutes and case law. Comments like " have risen above the old ways" just embed your complete ignorance even deeper.  You don't know squat about the real struggles of people today - one of which is that other people think their cultures have nothing to offer and as a people they don't even exist!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * But while armed conflict may have wound down since, well the Wounded Knee incident in 1973, for you to say things like "long-dead, full-blooded" is really an insult to the STILL LIVING, full-blooded people - and, more to the point, the people that Indian tribes enroll as members - which is the legal definition of "Indian" in the United States (noting "Indian" is a term of art in the law, notwithstanding the use of "Native American" in academe). I think you need to just step back from this topic altogether before you dig yourself in any deeper. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
 * , drop it. At best he's a wannabe, at worst, an apple. He doesn't understand, nor can he, how insulting the Americans first, Natives second statement really is. How Indians weren't even U.S. citizens until 1924 and can have their citizenship taken away any time that Congress decides to do so, or how Indians couldn't vote until after World War II, some not being allowed to vote until the 1960s and 70s. How Indian children are still being stolen from tribes, in much the same way my grandfather was taken from the rez and sent to Haskell, to make him more "white." Let him believe his racist BS, he just exposes himself for what he truly is every time he posts. Just ignore him. GregJackP   Boomer!   22:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Paine, I second all that Montanabw [and GregJackP] have said here. You keep digging yourself in deeper. Whether it's ignorance or trolling, I don't care; the effect is the same at this point. And leave me out of your racist attempts at forced-teaming. - Co<font color= "#003878">rb<font color= "#145073">ie V  ☊☼ 22:29, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

So what you're all saying basically is that you ignore my request for your forgiveness that I made on the talk page of the historically titled article. If you cannot find it in your hearts, then you cannot. I cannot put it there. They are your hearts – hearts that won't forgive, hearts that find only bad things where good things are meant, hearts that are young and hard, which fail to see all the good in the "bad" things you describe – they are your hearts, and you will have to deal with that. This was a simple discussion about a contentious title change that you wouldn't even see as contentious at first. I could have taken it to ANI but I refused, because I knew you would eventually at least see that I was right about the contentiousness, and you did and so began a request to move the page. Since then, you have managed to take this simple, contentious page title issue and turn it into something it is not. You warp my meanings and you see only bad in my words where only good was meant. They are your hard, unforgiving hearts – you will have to deal with that someday. I wish you many joys in your lives! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 03:14, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Thank You IP
Template:Thank You IP has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. <b style= "color:red">T</b><b style= "color:#FF4200">L</b><b style= "color:#FF7400">2</b><b style= "color:#FFA700">2</b> (<i style= "color:green">talk</i>) 16:16, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much, <b style= "color:red">T</b><b style= "color:#FF4200">L</b><b style= "color:#FF7400">2</b><b style= "color:#FFA700">2</b>, for this notification! Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 16:56, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

In regard to Calumet (pipe)
I have archived the previous discussion that contained dishonorable and unfounded accusations in regard to this page title and a requested-move discussion. If anyone cares to read my final response to that previous discussion, they will find it here in my talk-page archive. You came to my user talk page to accuse me of so much that had nothing to do with my thoughts, feelings or intentions. And you did it just so you could win a page-move dispute. I forgive you, but you must remember always that forgiveness and forgetting are two different things. As difficult as it was to forgive you, it will be impossible for me to forget anything about this horrible situation. Please do not continue these actions, these unfounded, false accusations, on my talk page where all my friends can see them. Any future problems you feel you have with me you can take to the proper and correct venue. Best of Everything to You and Yours! – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 03:40, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I may have damaged a template you added to Wikiversity
Hi - I was trying to merge histories on Wikiversity and the complexity overwhelmed me. In the chaos I tried to import a template from Wikipedia into Wikiversity. The template is at v:Template:R from merge. I think I restored it, but I have very little experience with importing and until now, and zero experience trying to revert an import from Wikipedia to Wikiversity. Sorry --Guy vandegrift (talk) 03:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC) (or go to my user page at v:user:Guy vandegrift


 * Hi, Guy vandegrift – I, too, am at a loss, because I do not remember adding the R from merge template or anything else other than my user and talk pages to Wikiversity. I'll see if I can help figure it out. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  04:54, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't work too hard on sorting this out. After contacting you, I learned that Wikiversity already has an acceptable way of merging that does not require your template. Wikipedia and Wikiversity have different needs in this regard.  Cheers!--Guy vandegrift (talk) 05:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh good, that's a relief! The first idea that came to me was that there are meta templates used within meta templates used within templates and all those would also have to be imported/constructed on WV to make the R from merge template work correctly.  Glad to see you're working it out. – <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  05:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * BTW, I noticed your interest in Astronomy was posted on your user page. The internet already posts enough information on that and other subjects to give the equivalent of a college degree.  What's missing is a means by which autodydacts can certify that knowledge.  I am attempting to solve that problem with an open source bank of multiple choice exam questions.  See Quizbank.  My motive is to reduce the cost of college education by automating the fact-oriented aspect of college education that tends to dominate the introductory courses.  Professors expend a great deal of time writing and choosing exam questions, and textbook sellers use the free testbank that accompanies textbooks to induce instructors to use textbooks that cost over $100 each.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 05:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello
Hello, thanks for your message. I am new to wikipedia and am still learning my way around. I was trying to redirect an incorrect link. The French language page for George Ortiz leads to Jaime Ortiz-Patino when English is selected (bottom left column). The link should lead to the English language page on George Ortiz. Could you correct? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zitrog (talk • contribs) 14:06, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, now I understand what you were trying to do. That English link on the French George Ortiz page must be changed at Wikidata, not here on the English Wikipedia.  I'll see if I can get it changed for you. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  14:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I see that you have already made the changes at Wikidata. I suggest that you give it some time, because it may take awhile before Wikidata actually engages the link changes.  If you see that it hasn't changed by the 6th of September, then you can go to WD:IC and report the conflict. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  15:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Then: User talk:Zitrog, then:


 * Great, thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zitrog (talk • contribs) 05:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Pleasure! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>

Spacetime
Paine Ellsworth, I don't think my removal of Spacetime from Category:Concepts in physics needs to wait for the outcome of the CfD. It's simply an application of WP:DEFINING, and is worth doing just to see what articles, if any, belong in the category. But I don't mind waiting. RockMagnetist(talk) 22:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, it's hard to argue with someone that "spacetime" is a physics concept when that person supports the deletion of the category itself. There are some keep !votes there, you know.  If "spacetime" isn't properly a physics concept, then what sort of concept is it? <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>


 * O.k., I'll wait. RockMagnetist(talk) 23:00, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>

YW
Hi! Nice of you to "Thank" me. You're welcome! Mungo (talk) 06:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Howdy!
Howdy Paine! Long time no holler! I was intriqued by your brief dialog with RockMagnetist concerning whether 'Spacetime' is a proper physics concept or not, and doubly intrigued as to the back story on that. Maybe you could give a quick shout back at oldcoot88@sonic.net

Bill(oc) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gondoofus (talk • contribs) 00:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Howdy, Bill!


 * It has been a long time, eh? In this day and age it's not easy to pin down which branch of physics to which spacetime belongs.  Astrophysics studies the interstellar medium, but that's just the matter that exists in spacetime and not spacetime itself.  Cosmology, especially physical cosmology, is probably as specific as it gets for spacetime.  One thing is sure, that while scientists today have not yet cracked the spacetime code, it is the physicist and astronomer who must get together to do just that.  So even though spacetime is not strictly an astrophysics concept, it is still most definitely a "physics concept" as well as an "astronomy concept".  I have no idea why some editors feel that readers don't need useful tools like the .  Probably has something to do with the archaic attitude that spacetime is "nothing". <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  05:12, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah, When the rigid-lattice 'ether' of Lorentz was kicked out (and rightly so), a surrogate was needed. Enter "spacetime", a pure abstraction, tailored to suit the newborn concept of space as an isotropic 'Nothingness', a universe-filling Pure Void. Brand new and hatched out of whole cloth, the space-as-void idea, garbed in the tuxedo of "spacetime", became the reigning paradigm for the next whole century. "Spacetime" endows the 'Nothingness' with a mathematical 'somethingness' while yet remaining Pure Void.
 * - "Spacetime" clearly has magical properties too. Flying photons, while zipping through the Void, somehow magically "know" to fly at exactly 'c' at all times, everywhere in the universe, even when out of lightspeed communication with their brethren on the opposite side of the universe. "Spacetime" also has the ability to "curve", thus causing gravity. This "Curvature of Nothingness" is magically able to crush a massive star down to a black hole, often popping off a supernova or hypernova in so doing. Moreover, the magical Curvature quite handily powers far more energetic and *sustained* processes of quasars. These are quite remarkable accomplishments of the 'Nothingness that is yet Something' called "spacetime".


 * Bill(oc) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gondoofus (talk • contribs) 01:55, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Uh oh. Looks like yer supposed to use four of these little squigglies when signing off. See is this works..


 * Gondoofus (talk) 02:23, 19 September 2015 (UTC)Bill(oc)


 * Yeah, you're getting the hang of it, Bill. Type 4 tildes (the little squiglies) to leave your user name plus the time and date – if you leave just 3 tildes, then you'll leave just your user name (no time or date) – and if you type 5 tildes, then you'll leave just the time and date (no user name).  I guess one CAN teach an ol' coot new tricks, heh?  Also, did you note how I used colons at the beginnings to indent responses to make them appear like the "threads of yore"?  The more colons, the more indented the response.  Customary here on Wikipedia talk pages.  As for spacetime, you know it was just another neat ruse perpertrated by that jolly ol' elfstein.  He was one sneaky dude, he was. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  09:48, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

On the subject of elfin dear old Uncle Albert, sometimes it's worthwhile to take a larger, more wholistic view of what actually lay behind his near-deific historical image. - - And yet I believe that all the while, he operated from a wisdom higher than anyone can know. Seeing the immaturity of man, he kept the true nature of space a secret, like a killdeer feigning a broken wing to protect its young. The ruse has kept hoomanity locked securely in the "space-time" playpen indefinitely, oblivious to the true nature of space. - And I b'lieve you probably concur, based on our long jawboning sessions on the subject back in the days of yore.

18:01, 20 September 2015 (UTC)Bill(oc) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.254.114.197 (talk)

Forgot to ask-- what was that thingy about using colons to indent stuff? 18:06, 20 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.254.114.197 (talk)


 * When you look at the edit screen to respond to me, you'll see a colon at the very beginning of the first line of my response to you. That indents my entire post a few pixels from the far left margin.  When you post a response to me, place two colons side by side, like this:
 * :: (your response)
 * Remember that the indents do not show up in the code itself as you are editing, they show up when you preview or save the page. Then when I post another response to you, I'll use three colons side be side ::: at the start of the first line of my response.  So that post will be indented even farther from the left margin under your response.  Those indents give the conversation a thread-like appearance.
 * Also, you can use those tildes in the same way to leave a sig whether or not you're logged in. If you're logged in, then your user name appears – if you're not logged in, then your IP number appears.  Anytime you don't use the tildes, a bot usually comes along within a few seconds or minutes and adds the small-text "preceding unsigned..." message. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  19:21, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Hayley Mills revert
What are you talking about? This is always the way we edit infoboxes for bios per Template:Infobox person: "include only if independently notable or particularly relevant", for relatives; "Only if independently notable themselves or particularly relevant", for children. Also, WP:REVEXP says: "Provide a valid and informative explanation including, if possible, a link to the Wikipedia principle you believe justifies the reversion." --Musdan77 (talk) 05:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Calm down, please, it was mybad, and I have self reverted. Joys! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  05:20, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I didn't think I was not sounding calm, but if so, you could look at my talk page to get an idea of what I was dealing with last night (US time). --Musdan77 (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

RfA
— Berean Hunter   (talk)  14:27, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow...how's that for coincidence, . I have open tabs on Mr. Ellsworth and been evaluating him for precisely that. That must mean something good for this possible candidate. Fwiw, I stole his giraffe a while back and turned them into fencers on my talk page...I'm going to try to solve a problem there concerning them later per comments left by other users. Maybe Paine knows the solution? :)

— Berean Hunter   (talk)  18:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You can still co-nom, or if you'd like, you can write up the primary nom and I can co-nom? -- &oelig; &trade; 14:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You might try playing with the "bottom:" figures to bring the fencers up some, and you can change "bottom:" to "top:" with respective figures something like "top:155px – top:155px – top:135px". I've been previewing these top figures, and that's what I'd do if it were me.  You might like the tops with a bit higher pixel figures to bring them down a bit more.  Thank you very much, Berean Hunter, for your supportive words in the nom, and I heartily and humbly thank both of you for nominating me to be an admin! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</b> (talk-contribs)  18:11, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked it as you have suggested (I think) and it looks good. I believe it addresses the obscured text issue. If you see that tweaking it a bit more would be an improvement, feel free to edit as such.
 * That looks very good! I'd expect only compliments, no complaints, about the way you've made it now.  Btw, I wish I could say that I dreamed it up, but I, too, shamelessly stole the code for that and the giraffe from a template, Recycle User, and ultimately from Alainr345. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</b> (talk-contribs)  20:22, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

— Berean Hunter   (talk)  15:26, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added my co-nomination. Thank you, OE for letting me have the opportunity.

Request for guidance
To &oelig;, Berean Hunter :  Before I transclude, when you get a moment would you mind critiquing my RfA page to let me know where I might improve it? <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</b> (talk-contribs) 02:31, 3 October 2015 (UTC) — Berean Hunter   (talk)  02:38, 3 October 2015 (UTC) — Berean Hunter   (talk)  11:47, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm about to turn in for the evening so I will look in the morning after I've had a bit of coffee. Have a good evening,
 * Thank you – no rush. Enjoy your evening! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</b> (talk-contribs)  02:57, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks okay to me! I'm confident you'll succeed. -- &oelig; &trade; 17:15, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Your confidence certainly helps to settle my innards! I just read the article in The Signpost about the need for more admins.  As interesting as it is, the comments are even moreso.  I do feel ready for this "trial by fire", so when Berean Hunter chimes in, and if there is no further improvement suggested, I'll hit the GO button. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine Ellsworth</b> (talk-contribs)  02:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry for not letting you know earlier, I sent email to you and yesterday morning (my time, east coast US). I've sent a couple of links for you to read amongst other things. :)
 * I'm looking over your email now and nibbling away at it. I must say, that is a thorough analysis for which I am grateful beyond words.  I'll give it some thought and implement what is needed.  I don't feel rushed because I still have a lot to read and digest.  Joys! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  (talk–contribs)  13:55, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've also read the email and concur with Berean Hunter's analysis. -- &oelig; &trade; 14:27, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, both, again. I still have more learning to do, so I'll let you both know when I transclude. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  (talk–contribs)  19:34, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Again, thank you two beyond words!
To &oelig;, Berean Hunter :  My RfA page has been transcluded. I've still a lot to learn; however, I also know that will be true for some time to come. You have been most helpful and supportive. Fingers crossed. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> (talk–contribs)  20:12, 6 October 2015 (UTC) — Berean Hunter   (talk)  21:47, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Good luck Paine.
 * Paine, you do not have to challenge every oppose, in fact, it's best not to at all, unless someone has a question for you. Believe me, I know, it can be painful when editors oppose you vociferously. But RfAs are a process where community members can have their say and a candidate has to let them voice your opinion. It's a long seven days, so get comfy. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 21:54, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that, Liz !  Believe it or not, I was prepared for the "conflict" opposition by both OlEnglish and Berean Hunter, both of whom saw it coming.  My responses so far are just to try to keep a "snow oppose" from happening.  I will, however, take your good advice and be more careful. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  (talk–contribs)  22:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's only been open a couple of hours! Think about the questions about your editing history and come back in the mornng tomorrow morning and respond to them. My two cents. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 22:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I concur with Liz. I find a dose of humility to be helpful at RfA's. And only challenge opposes that are egregiously wrong, backed up by evidence. -- &oelig; &trade; 14:52, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Tired of the racism effects
To &oelig;, Berean Hunter :  I see now that it was a huge mistake to apply for adminship in the wake of a discussion that included racism accusations. While the charges were unfounded, the damage has been done and good people are getting at each other's throats. That I can't have, won't have. In an important way, I feel that I've let you both down, and I'm genuinely sorry for that. I just cannot sit by and watch good people sling mud at each other. I suppose it would be all right if racism weren't involved, but I am so tired of people slapping that racist label on me. And in their eyes, if I'm a racist then that puts my friends in question as well. I think I'll take some time off, not feeling very well today. You are two of my favorite people, and I could never thank you enough. Joys! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 01:17, 8 October 2015 (UTC) — Berean Hunter   (talk)  12:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You haven't let me down. I'm sorry that things went this way for you and I don't see that any of those claims are borne out in your editing history at all. As you move forward in your editing, I suggest doing some new page patrol and as you interact with other editors, you will be establishing the edit history that you should be judged by in the future. If there is no pattern to what people claim then it isn't so, right? :) People are known by their actions and words.

RFA (II)
I'm sorry you decided to withdraw because of a certain group of opposes. Anyway, please know that these opposes and objections don't define your editing career. Next time you decide to re-run for adminship, I'll definitely support you, unless you manage to really break Wikipedia or something. Epic Genius (talk) 01:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That's very nice of you to say, Epic Genius! It wasn't so much the opposes, because the support percentage was steadily rising.  There was still plenty of time for my RfA to be successful, and I feel deep down that it would have been, or at least very close.  What got me were the beginning interactions on the talk page.  One editor, who was one of the first supporters who was able to pull in some sense to the matter, was staunchly putting holes in the racist argument.  But that same editor was also at odds with an old friend or two.  I've seen what damage can be done by racism, and I did not want to be at the center and heart of that kind of damage.  I'll let the situation cool off, get some more appropriate edits under my belt, answer the existing questions at my leisure, and maybe "Rfa 2" in a few months.  Thank you again for your kind words and gracious offer of support.  I'll try very hard not to break my favorite encyclopedia – and if I truly love E. Americana and E. Britannica, just imagine how I feel about Wikipedia!  Joys! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  02:03, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Although I'm sorry I couldn't support this time, I was impressed by your dignity and class and hope to support your next RfA. It's a very rough ride, even under the best of circumstances. See you around and all the best,  Mini  apolis  01:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking the time to tell me,  Mini apolis !  No need to be sorry – you voted as you saw best, and who knows, I might have agreed with you if it had been someone else's RfA.  Joys! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  02:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Paine, I'm sorry to see how your RFA turned out. I was super excited to see someone who wanted to help close discussions at WP:RFD because it's consistently backlogged (!) and I'd love to see a couple more admins active there. That being said, I was a little hesitant about it though, because I don't remember you ever making nac closes or anything along those lines. If you still are serious about that, I'd like to formally invite you to "hang out" more at RFD and make a few NAC closes over there so you can get some experience making closes. That way, when you run again you can give examples of a "need for the tools" and I can be confident in supporting you. Best of luck in the future, -- Tavix ( talk ) 16:11, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:DRN
It's good to bend over backwards, I suppose, but you do realize that the more you comment at WP:DRN the longer it will drag out. Also, engagement gives a false air of authority to the proceeding. Feeding disputes like this (where one drive-by contributor takes on half a dozen good editors) is not effective. All that is required is to respond to new points raised on the article talk page, or to revert any edits for which there is no consensus at talk. Johnuniq (talk) 08:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Johnuniq, for your concerns. Hopefully this will end soon with lessons learned by all of us. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  17:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Talk page rcats
Hi Paine. I appreciate your work tagging redirects, I think in general it's a useful thing to do. I just wonder about the benefits of tagging talk pages that previously only had one revision. Because the move interface is a bit crap, it doesn't give admins a tickbox to delete a talk page target when making a move, though it does give you the option for the article space target (see phab:T12814 and a few others). So when talk page redirects have more than one revision, it can often lead to talk pages being left behind in moves. Hope that makes sense, it's an odd thing to explain. Jenks24 (talk) 06:33, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Jenks24. Thank you very much! I suppose the benefits of sorting talk pages to appropriate maintenance cats are pretty much the same as any page in any other namespace.  I have read the phab ticket and associated tickets plus your VPT discussion, and I do see your dilemma since you move more pages than most editors or admins.  Talkspace is very different from other namespaces, which might at least partly explain what makes the bug so complex.  I come across unsynched talk pages occasionally, and I just sync them to their subject pages' targets and move on.  Perhaps there is a way to use magic words and a parser function at MediaWiki:Move-redirect-text, which adds the  template to all moved pages?  Let me ping  Red rose64, whom I usually ask this type of question. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  16:33, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Just off the top of my head (which means it might be flawed) something like:


 * A maintenance cat can then be monitored to capture and fix all the unsynched pages. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 16:53, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Naw, that won't work cuz both TALKPAGENAME and SUBJECTPAGENAME include namespaces, so they'll ne'er be "equal". <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 20:06, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I think I just found a way to use R from move itself to help you out. It might provide a resolution for the bugs. I'll put together an edit request at Template talk:R from move when tests are passed and completed. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 14:38, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the detailed response. I think above when I said "benefit" I should have said "net benefit" – I agree the benefit for talk pages is the same, it's just they have drawbacks that adding them to most other namespaces don't. If it were possible to search my move logs I think you'd find I've made at least a hundred moves with "sync" in the move summary. While most of them were caused by various other edits to a talk page redirect, not adding an rcat, there have been a couple like that and anything that can be done to lessen that will be a good thing. Often the talk pages are left unsynched for months or years, which can cause all sorts of problems once they're finally caught.
 * That was probably all stuff you already knew, but I thought it worth noting down anyway. I appreciate you taking the time to come up with a solution. Let me know if you need me for anything to do with the testing, but I'll leave actually performing the edit requests to someone more tech-savvy than myself. By the way, neither of your pings to me here worked for whatever reason. Jenks24 (talk) 15:23, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The notification system still has a few bugs off and on. How about now? <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  15:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, still no ping. Jenks24 (talk) 15:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Does this still work? <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 15:34, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Still no Jenks24 (talk) 15:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That tells me that To is probably okay, and that the notification system is probably down, at least partly ... I have been pinged by all your posts to this page. (???) <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 15:43, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, I just realised I didn't need to search the logs, I can just use the edit summary search. Anyway, these are the two links . There's a fair few other moves picked up, but still you can see it's a not insignificant occurrence. Maybe one day the devs will get around to fixing the interface... Jenks24 (talk) 15:30, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow! That's a lot! If I'm correct, my addition to R from move will capture and categorize all unsynched redirects that are tagged with that template, old and new.  There will still be those redirects from before autotagging that are not synched and are not tagged with R from move, but at least all the new ones and some old ones will be caught. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  15:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I've placed an inquiry at Template talk:R from move to enlist the help of another editor who is much better than I am at this. I pinged you there, but I thought it best to make a note here as well, in case you're still watching. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 18:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Just to let you know, Jenks24, the code to capture unsynched talk pages has been added to the move rcat. At last check, there are already over 400 entries in the category, so this is going to be fun! Pleasant pathways, <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b> 23:24, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:Tracy Hepburn films
Re: Templates for discussion/Log/2015 October 19

Since you participated in the previous discussion regarding the above topic, its revival may be of interest. &mdash;Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 01:49, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Roman Spinner, for the heads up. I left a "keep". <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  04:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Poe bio
Hi Paine,

You might have noticed that the Poe discussion is closed now that we have an agreement on using David Levy's lede. I have edited the Poe bio to include that lede. Please take a look when you get a chance. JoePeschel (talk) 18:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

our discussion
Hi,

Thanks for your helpfull reply at talk:ceremonial pipe, you deserve a barnstar for deligance in communicating.

Have you heard about recent yazidi persecutions ? When I wrote elsewhere outside wikipedia I carried simillar feeling like yours; may be if exploreres would not have explored and reported their cultural differance and different conscience, may be they would have had better chance of safty from rest of the world not knowing them altogether. It is on the same principle we defend privacy for wikipedians. And I do totally support sentiments expressed by your goodselves. And if any indigenous community does not want share there information for the sake of security or safeguarding them from cultural compromise; I have no intrest in pushing them for the same.

The only thing is if for any such reason if some one wants to hold on or delete any information there needs to be base level transparancy to declare/inform that, "for such and such article/section we are holding on some information for legitimate reasons" and some one else designated for the purpose should validate the claim (the way we do for private edit filters on wikipedia).

When I am writing on article Ceremonial pole I am quite aware that quite a good number of communities have suffered Cultural suppression for their conscience over the centuries, some have been successfull in retaining or reviving there cultures.

I come from India where cultural plurality is rule than exception so indigenous communities in India have lesser worries while they share their information, rather it is opposite case that they want to stand with pride whatever their beliefs are and share them openly. The way I do understand some other communities do not want share info there are communities from south asia and east asia if they are not allowd to share their information they may feel this is a case of Cultural suppression.

It is not the communities it is the cultural suppressors who need to feel ashamed, It is not communities but the cultural suppressors who need to feel afraid. Here I would like to remember a poem by nobel lauriet Rabindranath Tagore, I quote "Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high; Where knowledge is free; ....Into that heaven of freedom, My Father, let my country awake."

If you are not tired with my lenthy response then I would like to bring to your attention one morre side that if suppose an indigenous person of some unknown community suddenly turns up before you, and you need to make a decesion whether his request is legitimate where do you turn to find the information as of today you turn to wikipedia or not; For example an indigenous community person is working in your office you are boss and he is asking for one day leave for a cultural celebration; as a boss where you will search for information first to decide if his request is legitimate or not, is it not that if due deligence is applied if they themselves are involved in deciding what information to share and which information should not be shared would it not be a better policy and then in that case is it not the case for better reach out and participation of the indigenous communities in wiki affairs.

Thanks and warm regards

Mahitgar (talk) 07:09, 25 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello again, Mahitgar – there have been suppressed cultures ever since the beginning when human numbers began to grow and territories became big enough to bring human groups closer together. Had our ancestors been a less aggressive people, then peace would have ruled.  But the more powerful groups took the less powerful ones, persecuted them, made them slaves, and so on.  It is nothing new, and it has never been an acceptable situation to many people.
 * A peek at history can give us hope, though. I see in my mind a hundred years from now a better world, wherein fewer peoples are suppressed and life is better for people than it is today.  Why?  Because I'm an amateur historian who has compared hundred-year periods in the past, and what I've found is that, generally speaking and for the most part, each century-long period has been better for people than the previous century.  One man whom I esteem highly once told me that good people should not try to fight evil directly.  They stand just as much chance of losing as they do of winning.  He said it is always best to fight evil indirectly by the active spread of the good.  The more that good spreads in the world, the less room there is for evil.  The trick seems to be to convince the vast numbers of complacent good people to do things that spread the good.
 * I hope I'm not rambling, my friend. I am getting old, and the ongoing "fight" to spread the good has taken its toll.  I still think that things like hatred and atrocities toward other living things are and have always been relatively small in the world.  And while the work to spread good is and should be constant and steadfast, it will eventually corral the evil much like smallpox, once a worldwide scourge, was finally contained to one country, Ethiopia, and then eradicated.  Thank you for an enlightening conversation, and I sincerely hope that things get better for the yazidi and other oppressed peoples, and for you and yours as well! Pleasant pathways, <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  20:49, 25 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, Mahitgar! Pleasant pathways, <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b> 20:51, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Sort redirect template to top of redirects category
Paine, Evidently I have forgotten how to do this. P64


 * Hi, P64 – Thank you for catching this, as it looks like I screwed that one up from the start . A look at  shows that you did it correctly – you fixed my mistake!  There is usually no space between the end of the cat name and the pipe, as in, but putting a space after "animals" doesn't seem to matter.  Good job, P64! Pleasant pathways, <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  20:42, 26 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. What I had forgotten again, evidently, was to refresh the category page, which I had visited minutes earlier. The prefix to my edit summary, "(try to)", means that I anticipated my work would not work, as I found that it did not when I checked. Sigh. --P64 (talk) 20:50, 26 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, thank you, P64, I don't know what I was thinking back on 20 April when I created the /doc page. As for not purging your cache, I do that a lot, too, so that's no big deal – it's still a good catch on your part! Pleasant pathways, <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Painius</b>  20:55, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Reply notice
See reply IE8 on my talk page. Airliner (Talk) 00:27, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Responded on Airliner's talk page – opened a ticket at Village pump. <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  05:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Cris-to-fo-ro or Cri-sto-fo-ro, linguistic discussion (help needed)
Original header: "I can't believe I'm really starting a discussion about such a simple a matter just because a user who starts from others being wrong and knowing less than him ignores how things are..."



Speedy deletion nomination of E-Infrastructure Reflection Group
Ref: Draft:E-Infrastructure Reflection Group



A tag has been placed on E-Infrastructure Reflection Group requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section R2 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect from the article namespace to a different namespace except the Category, Template, Wikipedia, Help, or Portal namespaces.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Stefan2 (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Acceptable (disambiguation) listed at Redirects for discussion

 * Ref.&#58;
 * WP:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 November 14 – procedural close ( (non-admin closure) )
 * Talk:Disambiguation (ToaR template) – restored – 19:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Acceptable (disambiguation). Since you had some involvement with the Acceptable (disambiguation) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Si Trew (talk) 03:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Orthodoxy disambiguation
Regarding your recent edits to disambiguate "Orthodox" to Orthodoxy, this is incorrect. The article at "Orthodoxy" has been reworked and no longer refers to Eastern Orthodoxy. The demographics articles sometimes need clarification. Are they covering Eastern Orthodox only? Do they include Oriental Orthodox numbers? It is not necessarily clear. If you can be sure, then link to Eastern Orthodox Church or Oriental Orthodox Church. There is no article now treating both at once. Elizium23 (talk) 23:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your input! I just did the best I could with two or three mainspace pages that still needed disambiguation of links following this discussion. Be prosperous! <b style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</b>  02:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Acceptable (disambiguation)


A tag has been placed on Acceptable (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G6 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an orphaned disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates two or fewer extant Wikipedia pages and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic); or
 * disambiguates no (zero) extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Legacypac (talk) 10:16, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Acceptable (disambiguation) listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Acceptable (disambiguation). Since you had some involvement with the Acceptable (disambiguation) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Legacypac (talk) 07:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)