Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 136

"Later this year"
This phrase should be added to the "never use" category. I'm running into it more and more, added by people who clearly don't realize why it shouldn't be used. I've been able to fix a few based upon context, but there's been a few articles where this isn't possible. 68.146.72.113 (talk) 17:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

DRN thread on UK unit use
There's a thread at the dispute resolution noticeboard at the moment about which units to use in an article on a tunnel in the UK. If the editors here could take some time to share their insights I would be very grateful. The discussion is here: Dispute resolution noticeboard. —  Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 23:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * If I may offer a different interpretation of the nature of the "dispute". I believe that the dispute is not about "which units" to use - the article uses the dual-unit format "imperial (metric)", it is actually about whether sufficient reason was given to to justify swapping the order of presentaion of some of the two-unit-pairs from "imperial (metric)" to "metric (imperial)". -- de Facto (talk). 07:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Mixing "main" units
A point of contention in the Hindhead Tunnel dispute is the following bullet point from this guideline:


 * Avoid mixing systems of measurement used for primary measures. Write They could see the peak of a 600metre (2,000 ft) hill from a nearby 650metre (2,100 ft) hill, not …a 2,000foot (610 m) hill from a nearby 650metre (2,100 ft) hill.

Mixsynth tried to edit the point on 2 January, but in my view, Mixsynth's version had other problems so I reverted. I suggest restating the point as follows, so that the scope of the advice is confined to what is illustrated by the example:


 * Avoid using the same unit as a main unit at one point in the text and secondary unit in another point in the text. Write They could see the peak of a 600metre (2,000 ft) hill from a nearby 650metre (2,100 ft) hill, not …a 2,000foot (610 m) hill from a nearby 650metre (2,100 ft). hill. An exception would be where, in the field of the article, a particular unit is generally used for a specific unit type of measurement. For example, in an aviation article that lists distances in metres as the main unit, feet might be used as the main unit for altitude.

Jc3s5h (talk) 15:07, 12 January 2012 (UTC) modified 13:49 13 January 2012 (UT)


 * Yes, this is what I was trying to clarify too. My own effort was as a direct result of issues raised in the Hindhead discussion, where this particular guideline had been interpreted to mean that articles should use either "all-metric" or "all-imperial" main units throughout, despite the contrary guideline under "which units to use" for UK-related articles advising a specific metric/imperial mix. Jc3s5h's version above appears to correct both the US-specific issues he raises and the UK-specific issues I was concerned with.


 * However, I might go further and suggest that the point might safely be removed altogether since it seems that, if the guidelines relating to "which units to use" are followed, there shouldn't be a situation where the same unit is used as a main unit at one point in the text and as a secondary unit in another point in the text except for nominal measurements and UK-specific exceptions. I could be missing something, though. Mixsynth (talk) 16:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Is it worth exploring the argument that the units used in the primary source should influence the decision. As an aside, the Hindhead Tunnel article has another interesting question - the tunnel was designed for traffic travelling at 120 km/h (as opposed to 100, 80, 70 or 60 km/h - Britians other standard speeds for road design).  However the national speed limit is 70 mph.  How should this be  be represented? Martinvl (talk) 16:56, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The style in an article should be consistent. I don't know what Martinvl means by a "primary source", but normally various points in articles are supported by different sources. I don't support changing the style to match whichever source supports a given passage. Also, people are always finding sources that are better, more up-to-date, or more freely accessible, so following the style in the source makes the style of the article unstable. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed - I note that there has also been a problem with editors choosing sources not for their appropriateness but for what units they use. It often isn't difficult to find sources that use units contrary to local usage (for example, a discussion of an Australian topic in an article written for a US publication is likely to use US customary units, even though Australia is fully metric) - we ought to aim for consistency and local usage, which a blanket use-the-sources rule fails to provide. Pfainuk talk 18:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't necessarily agree that the sources referenced by an article should have any bearing on the units used in that article, either. More important should be consistent usage of units across articles aimed at similar kinds of audiences by way of a single, coherent style guide. Mixsynth (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Design values and legal limits, like other nominal values, should be treated as quasi-quotations and shown with the original unit first no matter what, IMO. ― A. di M.​  17:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree - we should be driving cars at 70 mph through a tunnel with a design speed of 120 km/h, because both are defined units - even though that might appear inconsistent. I think MOSNUM already advises this, mind. Pfainuk talk 18:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * We aren't intending to recommend a specific set of units for UK related articles, but rather attempting to guide editors as to how units might legitimately vary in UK-related articles. In particular, there are other contexts where imperial units may be appropriate both in UK contexts and generally.  We don't currently make explicit provision for the foot for aircraft altitude, for example.  Nor (though it's not a specifically imperial unit) do we mention the year: such a strict interpretation of WP:UNITS would seem not to allow any unit of time longer than a day.


 * In a UK context, I note that that particular point has a footnote advising that there are strong views on this subject and that in the absence of consensus, historically stable units should remain.


 * On the original point, may I suggest that this only really makes a difference if the two units are used in the same context? After all, it's not intended to strait-jacket articles into one system or the other. Pfainuk talk 18:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * While it's true that these guidelines are neither exhaustive nor binding, I would argue that they must be regarded as a set of standards to follow or they would have little practical purpose in helping ensure a consistent house style, that being the purpose of MOS. The foot for aircraft altitude is not on the list at the moment, but I see no reason why it shouldn't be added as metres are almost never used in that context in the UK.


 * I think the note about historically stable units relates only to situations where no overall consensus exists one way or the other. The unit use guidelines should still be the basis of consensus-seeking discussion into to whether or not any unit order change should stand, though.


 * Regarding the original subject, if removal of the "avoid mixing" point would be a step too far at this stage, let's implement Jc3s5h's amendment. Mixsynth (talk) 09:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I think my proposal is longer than I would like, and it is really covered well enough by the requirement in the MOS that consistent style be used. So I favor dropping the bullet point altogether. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I can go for that. Pfainuk talk 21:01, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Clearly, wide consensus expressed through guidelines overrides arguments based on the history of the article - and is more likely to sway outside editors.


 * The general rule is that editors should follow common British usage on UK-related articles. All else is guidance as to how to meet that rule.  Now, the particular instances listed are instances of imperial units that are near-universal in the UK - you can't reasonably claim to be following common British usage if you're measuring distance in kilometres, for example - so in that respect, those bullet points are an inherent part of the standard that we expect people to follow.  But in many other circumstances, usage is highly context-dependent and such a blanket rule probably isn't appropriate.


 * On the foot for aircraft altitude, the advice used to be to use the units most commonly in use internationally (as opposed to SI), except where there are strong national ties or other good reasons. This avoided the whole bit about units that are near-universal in certain contexts but aren't technically endorsed by SI, including the foot for aircraft altitude and the year for time. Pfainuk talk 21:01, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed and clarified in the article text. -- de Facto (talk). 10:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Reverted as this does not clarify anything. It introduces the vague phrase "common British usage", which is not defined and so is impossible for editors from other parts of the world to follow. The point of the guideline is to define what "common British usage" is as far as the Wikipedia house style is concerned. Any improvement should seek to further clarify the unmentioned contexts (if indeed there are any) where imperial should be used. Mixsynth (talk) 11:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The phrase "Common British usage" will lead different editors to read into it their often conflicting notions of what common British usage is. It's a recipe for even more disputation. Michael Glass (talk) 13:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Of course there are additional contexts in which it would be a good idea to use imperial units. This is why the text puts the point in general terms, giving only a few common examples of imperial units that are near-universally used in modern Britain (so, that we should be using in our articles).  We've already agreed on an example not listed - feet for aircraft altitude.


 * The fact is that we're never going to have a precise and definitive list of contexts in which imperial units are appropriate, which is what you seem to be looking for. Often this will depend very strongly on context and closely-related contexts may use different units: for example, fuel is sold by the litre but fuel consumption is measured in miles(/yards/feet/inches) per imperial gallon.  In some cases there simply is no consensus in usage and trying to enforce one system or another is not realistic.  The best advice we can give is that if, after reading WP:UNITS and any additional relevant WikiProject guidelines, you are still in doubt as to what common usage means, apply WP:RETAIN. Pfainuk talk 14:18, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * We agree that feet are always used for aircraft altitude in the UK, and indeed this appears to be the only specific exception made by the Times Style Guide (used as a reference document here for a very long time) that isn't also listed as an exception here. I do believe it should be added to the list as it's surely as universal an exception as miles and mph.


 * It appears that WP:RETAIN pertains specifically to varieties in the English language and not to measurement units. It also wouldn't seem appropriate for WP:UNITS to be interpreted only to specify certain contexts where measurements must be given as imperial first (e.g. miles but never kilometres) but offer no firm guidance either way on any others, as that would not seem to be balanced advice, permitting all-imperial use but (in many cases) preventing all-metric use. For example, editors who describe a vehicle's fuel consumption using litres per 100 km as main units may be upset at their figures being switched with miles per imperial gallon, but the guidelines are clear which are preferred; it follows that they should also be just as clear in the opposite direction.


 * If there are further contexts where all agree it is more appropriate to use imperial over metric as main units, and these contexts can be easily summarised, it would not be too difficult to include them in the guidance; however, no further such contexts have yet been agreed on. For example, DeFacto has suggested that road-related articles are a further case where entirely imperial units should be used; do we accept this? Is it "common British usage" to use Fahrenheit, cubic yards, imperial gallons, etc. as main units in any UK article, or would metric be preferable? Do we prefer to measure buildings, tunnels and hills in feet first or metres?


 * "The main unit is generally a metric unit" with specified exceptions would appear fairly clear as a guiding rule to determine what "common British usage" means for the purposes of Wikipedia. This is not to assert that metric is always a superior choice in every other situation than those specified, but it is at least as clear as should be expected of guidance, particularly when the guidance being sought is "which units to use". Mixsynth (talk) 18:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Other contexts in which imperial units are appropriate would include screen size in inches, and many historical contexts. And I'm sure there are others.  We don't want to be in a position where we have to list every single conceivable context because it would take up most of MOSNUM.


 * The point of the advice is not to be precisely balanced between metric and imperial, but to match (as closely as we can) British usage. As there isn't precise balance in British usage, there shouldn't be precise balance in our advice either.  It so happens that there are several contexts in which imperial units are near-universal, but few metric usages that are similarly universal.


 * If you want the local equivalent to WP:RETAIN, read the top of the guideline. It's exactly the same rule: we don't change styles without good reason. Pfainuk talk 23:45, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Screen sizes in inches is an obvious one, and one I'm sure we can all agree on, so let's add it to the exceptions list along with feet for aircraft altitude. I'm not sure what you mean by "historical contexts", but I can't imagine that they would be any different from historical contexts for any other country.


 * Styles should indeed not be changed without good-reason, but only where the original style is guideline-defined. Styles can of course be changed if they are not consistent with the guidelines.


 * My description of "balanced advice" doesn't refer to advising use of both systems in equal proportions but to giving equal strength of advice as to use of units of either system, i.e. "use imperial for these contexts and metric for the rest" rather than "use imperial for these and whatever you choose for the rest"; it's a moot point though, as the advice as it stands does appear to advise the former.


 * There are plenty of metric usages that are near-universal. Weights of objects other than people, volumes other than draught beer or cider, temperatures, construction projects, architecture, and so on. For example, it's clearly not consistent with "British usage" to weigh a car in pounds or long tons, or to measure a jar or bottle in imperial fluid ounces. So, the advice has to be interpreted just as strongly to use metric in these contexts as it is interpreted to use imperial for the specified exceptions.


 * It's true that we don't change styles without good reason, but a good reason has to be cases when the style currently used isn't consistent with the guideline and a change would make it so. Mixsynth (talk) 11:49, 20 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Mixsynth, "use imperial for these contexts and metric for the rest" isn't balanced, especially in the UK context. If it were balanced it would say: "use imperial for these contexts, use metric for these contexts and prevailing common usage for the rest" - or similar. However, with the UK context as it is, I believe that this would be more appropriate: "use metric for these contexts and imperial for the rest".
 * Your list of "plenty of metric usages that are near-universal" seems to be based on the erroneous assumption that units that are legally required in trading situations, or units which are used in metricated industries, have somehow been embraced and are now in universal common use. Nothing could be further from reality. Imperial units for volume, distance and weight are in common and everyday use. Heavy object weights are talked about in terms of "tons" and light objects in terms of "ounces". Jam is bought in jars by the pound. Pre-packed sausages are bought by the pound. Apples and potatoes are bought by the pound. Milk is bought in 1, 2, 4 and 6-pint plastic bottles. Distances are talked about in terms of yards or miles. Building sizes are talked about in terms of feet for height and yards for length. For UK articles imperial should prevail, other than for listed universal metric exceptions. -- de Facto (talk). 13:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Once again DeFacto takes it upon himself to speak on behalf of the entire British public without giving any evidence for the claims he makes. The implication that metric units are actively rejected by most of the population does not tally with the country I know.--Charles (talk) 00:08, 21 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you have evidence that metric units are prefered by most of the population to support using them by default in Wikipedia articles, rather than the traditional imperial units? I would suggest that it is that implied assertion that the majority of the British population now prefer metric units, despite their history since the metrication process sarted of empatically rejecting them, that requires robust, credible and reliably sourced evidence. -- de Facto (talk). 10:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Units of measure in common British usage
There seems to be a concerted effort in progress to force the use of metric units into non-science UK-related articles for contexts where some may assert that the "official" unit is a metric one. We need to review this unsatisfactory situation.

The UK has traditionally used the system of imperial units of measurements. However, although many industries (including engineering industries such as the automotive and aerospace industries) have long since chosen to use metric units and the government has introduced legislation attempting to force the use of metric units into certain trading situations and into public administration activities, imperial units are still in common usage in the UK in many, if not most everyday situations.

It is my belief therefore, that these guidelines should explicitly state that imperial units should be used for the main units in all UK-related non-science articles (unless context dictates metric - but a strong reasoning must be provided to justify this exception) and that metric (or imperial where the exception applies) conversions should always be provided where appropriate. This would mirror common British usage as mirrored in the style used by the UK's largest and most respected provider of factual information online - the BBC.

At the moment, the guidelines are being interpreted as only allowing the use of imperial as the main unit for applications where an imperial unit is the only legally allowed unit for that application and not where it is the commonly used unit. Wiki should reflect the real world - not attempt to force change onto the real world. -- de Facto (talk). 14:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * DeFacto claims "imperial units are still in common usage in the UK in many, if not most everyday situations". However, in the discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard one UK newspaper style guide, the Guardian's style guide has been found that mostly advocates metric units and the Telegraph's, that mostly advocates "common British weights and measures". As far as I can see it's a tie, so Wikipedia could favor either approach, or could leave it to the first substantial contributor for each article. I favor the metric-first approach because this leads to the greatest ease of comparing quantities from different nations and different fields of study, even if these comparisons are being carried out by the reader, rather than being contained within the article. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * While I strongly agree with de Facto's point that we should reflect the real world, rather than forcing change on the real world, I don't think that's the effect of his proposal.


 * There are certain imperial units that are near-universal in British usage and recommended by both those style guides. Using kilograms to measure a person's weight in a UK context, for example, would completely fail in the aim of reflecting the real world: very few British people will have any idea of their weight in kilograms or their height in metres.  The specific imperial examples that we list currently are those that are most commonly cited as imperial in British usage - though there are others (like feet for aircraft heights or inches for screen widths).  We cannot claim to be reflecting the real world if we are not prepared to accept imperial usage in cases where it is overwhelmingly more common in the real world.


 * But at the same time, we do need to recognise that metric units have become common in many spheres of modern British life. Go to the supermarket and most of what you see will be in metric units (even if they're often 454 grams or 568 millilitres or similar).  If you use measurements for your job, chances are they'll use metric units.  Reflecting the real world doesn't just mean accepting imperial units when they're used.  It also means using metric units where they are used in the real world.


 * Yes, it gets complicated sometimes, and there will be circumstances where the best advice we can give is WP:RETAIN. But that's what's necessary to reflect the real world. Pfainuk talk 17:06, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Pfainuk, I agree with most of what you write. Your supermarket examples are interesting. 454 grams equals one pound and 568 millilitres equals one pint. That's not really an example of using metric though is it, it's an example of continuing to use imperial, despite the law dictating that metric must be used. Customers won't be looking for a 454 gram jar of jam, they'll be looking for a one pound jar - and still finding it. It's the same in hardware shops. Wood and board is now compulsorarily labelled in metric (where it was once feet and inches). You now buy wood and board in dimensions which are multiples of 305 mm which happen to be almost identical to the former 12-inch multiples. So shoppers can still ask for, and get, for example: 4ft x 8ft sheets of hardboard (it will be labelled as 1220 mm x 2440 mm though). So that's still imperial too. -- de Facto (talk). 17:34, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Jc3s5h, if dual units are used, the ease of comparison remains the same whichever system comes first. The fact that we have one style guide for metric and one for imperial does not imply "a tie", it merely reflects the Guardian's position on metrication. We should reflect (and not try to undermine) the nation's character, customs, traditions, vernacular and preferences by using imperial as the primary system for UK-related articles. After all, even the EU has now formally abandoned its attempts to expunge imperial units from the nation's psyche. -- de Facto (talk). 17:09, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * DeFacto claims "We should reflect (and not try to undermine) the nation's character, customs, traditions, vernacular and preferences by using imperial as the primary system for UK-related articles." I do not believe DeFacto. I do not believe that imperial units are in fact the vernacular in the UK, with some specific exceptions such as road mileage and speed. Nor I believe the contrary; since I do not live in the UK, I can only go by reliable sources that are competent to describe what the vernacular is. The preceding statement demonstrates that DeFacto is a political advocate of imperial and his statements about what is or is not the vernacular should carry no weight. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Jc3s5h, I resent and refute your assertion that I'm "a political advocate of imperial", I would just like to see the true case represented in Wikipedia - that means using imperial for the main units in UK-related articles and always with metric conversions for the sake of those unfamiliar with imperial. I have also spent a lot of time adding metric conversions to U.S. customery only units in articles for the same reason. I agree that my personal POV should not carry any more weight than anyone else's. That's why I'm happy to support it with reliably sourced information with the hope that I might convince some of the doubters here to agree with me. My statements and my POV are based on my experiences in the UK. Compare what I wrote with this very recent article from the eminently reliable source, the BBC, or this recent finding by the UK's 2nd largest supermaket chain (reported by the country's primary independent consumer campaigning organisation). -- de Facto (talk). 17:55, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I too live in the UK, and my own observations are different from yours. In my experience, metric is used almost universally for everything (except in the handful of well-known excepted contexts), particularly in retail, education, science, business, healthcare, governmental and state affairs, all sport except horse racing and football (soccer) and in almost every field of professional employment. Generally speaking, the only time I see or hear imperial measurements (other than the few main exceptions) is in discussion with those who went to school before the mid-1970s, by reading older literature from before the same period and by reading certain publications of the British press. Mixsynth (talk) 20:49, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Mixsynth, in that case, what do you make of the analysis in the BBC article (cited above too) or the results of the survey here (cited above too)? I wonder what proportion of the population went to school before 1975 too (all those born before 1970 - or now over the age of about 41). -- de Facto (talk). 21:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Last time I told an Englishman how many kilos I weighed, he replied “That means nothing to me.” And he was a 20-year-old college student; I suppose older or less educated people would be even less familiar with the SI. (Of course, one data point of anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything, but...) ― A. di M.​  17:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I can confirm that we are in a very mixed-up state in the UK. Food etc packaging gives metric, although still sometimes using imperial sizes (454 grams). On the weather I think metric is winning the battle & tv forecasts don't usually give fahrenheit at all. But (human) weight is still mostly stones, & approximate distances tend to be yards & feet, though building is all metric. Johnbod (talk) 18:13, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Johnbod, which one of the following would you say most characterises the measurement system(s) most commonly used in the UK?
 * a) Metric only
 * b) Imperial only
 * c) Metric and imperial equally
 * d) Generally metric with a few exceptions using imperial
 * e) Generally imperial with a few exceptions using metric
 * f) Something else (please state what)
 * -- de Facto (talk). 18:25, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * c to d I think Johnbod (talk) 18:36, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

The probable reason that young Englishman did not know his weight in kilos is that Stones, Pounds and Ounces are used for personal weighing using bathroom scales and nothing else, so he could not convert it because he is used to working in metric units otherwise. If we were to go down the route suggested by DeFacto how would we determine what is the "vernacular" usage? It would be no good relying on anecdote, cherry-picked newspaper articles, or just who shouts the loudest. Extensive carefully designed and neutrally conducted surveys would be needed to determine this for each type of unit. It is unlikely anyone will spend that sort of money unless they have a POV to push. There is likely to be a generational difference as older people tend to think imperial while the younger are educated in metric units. I doubt if many people under fifty would see any need to translate the size of their heating oil tank from litres into gallons, even if they knew the ratio to use.--Charles (talk) 18:33, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * This is the sort of point that resulted in the status quo: we note that usage is mixed, recommend (but do not insist upon) metric units in most situations, but note certain exceptions where imperial units are more appropriate (because those usages are near-universal in the UK). This is based on the style guides of British publications. Pfainuk talk 23:16, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

As an alternative to the press, why not look at British school text books? All subjects, apart from maths, are entirely metric and maths pays lip service to conversiopns between metric and imperial, but does not teach children how to manipulate numbers using imperial units. The situation is summarised in the article "Metication in teh United Kingdom" as follows: ''Many aspects of life have been metricated either totally or partially; including industry, building, education and some sports such as rugby union. Many remain without visible evidence of metrication where Imperial units are used or even mandated[citation needed], including road signs, estate agents' advertisements and the non-specialist media.[citation needed] Trade is substantially metric.'' The citations would have been there if DeFacto had not removed them. On a point of correction - the DIY stores sell timber in multiples of 300 mm, not 305 mm as stated by DeFacto. One of my observations regarding persoanl weights is that journalists seem to alway use stones and pounds, even though people who use the gym tend to use metric units, the medical profession uses metric units as does the armed forces - particularky when assessing a soldiers backpack as a percentage of his weight. SO what we are really seeing is the influence of a few newspaper editors, not the country at large. Finally, Wikipedia is an encyclopeadia, not a newsheet, so should err on using the langauge of academia, rather than the language of the press. Martinvl (talk) 20:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Martinvl,
 * 1) Do the school textbooks reflect current common usage or the political desire to metricate the UK? I suspect the latter - so how could they be a NPOV alterbative?
 * 2) Were the citations you say that I removed WP:RS compliant?
 * 3) Check the sizes of the hardboard sheets sold in Wickes, B&Q and Jewsons (3 of the UK's largest DIY suppliers) - none of those are 300 mm multiples.
 * -- de Facto (talk). 20:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The idea that the British all use metric units really to measure their weights is simply inaccurate. The reason why the media always give people's weights in stones is because the public always describe their weights in stones.  Where kilograms are used, it's in the context of, well you weigh 14 stone, we'll multiply that by 6.3 and that's the number we'll put into the computer.  If that's what goes into the computer then that's what goes into the computer - but it almost certainly doesn't mean anything to you without doing the conversion (which you probably don't know).


 * Using school textbooks is deliberately choosing one of the metric contexts and saying, oh, that's clearly representative. No, school textbooks do not reflect normal usage in the UK.  In fact, a good way of defining the split between metric and imperial units for younger people is that you use metric units for things you learn at school and imperial units for things you learn outside school. Pfainuk talk 22:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree. The later novels of of Kingsley Amis used metric units as in things like "two hundred metres down the road" & it read really oddly. All rulers, tape measures & (contrary to what was said above) weighing machines have both scales. The US also uses metric in science & most industry, but still firmly uses imperial in everyday contexts, & the UK is similar. Johnbod (talk) 23:13, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Because British usage of units is inconsistent, contested between the pro and anti-metrics and slowly changing towards an increasing use of metric measures in some instances but not in others, it is impossible to draw up a set of guidelines that will satisfy all editors. Here are the possibilities: I believe that the best policy is generally to follow local, authoritative sources. If the sources use Imperial measures, put them first; if they use metric measures, put them first. This seems to be the policy followed by the BBC, which apparently puts metric measures first when the sources are metric, e.g., here and imperial first when the source is imperial e.g., here. Michael Glass (talk) 23:28, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Metric as a general rule. Will be fought tooth and nail by many editors and will be inconsistent with some good sources of information.
 * Imperial as a general rule. Will be fought tooth and nail by many editors and will be inconsistent with an increasing number of good sources of information.
 * Follow the style guides. Problem: the style guides themselves are inconsistent on many points and may be inconsistent with sources of information.
 * Follow the best sources. Problems: even good sources can be inconsistent, and there will still be conflict over which sources are best or whether sources are in accord with real British usage.
 * Follow "British usage". Problem: it's an invitation to disputation, as can be seen from above.
 * Follow the usage set in the article. Problem: articles can't be updated when more information becomes available.


 * Your claim of a BBC policy must be ignored because it lacks any credible basis. It is purely speculation, a claim of a policy based on individual instances of usage.  As to your proposal, to make articles horrendously inconsistent in this way would seem to be a very bad idea.  We must also remember that sources frequently do not match local usage because they are not written with a local audience in mind.  There is no good reason why UK-related articles should not be allowed to use British usage when every other country in the world gets to use its local units.  And it is of course worth pointing out your habit of going through articles with sources that you've decided are "the best" because of the units they use. Pfainuk talk 23:56, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Your claim that following the units used in the sources would cause horrendous inconsistencies must be ignored because it lacks any evidence whatsoever. It is pure speculation, and must be rejected out of hand. Ignoring the units used by the sources is a very bad idea. We must remember that the best sources will use the best and most widely understood units of measure for the subject at hand. To turn our backs on educated usage is not best practice. And it is of course worth pointing out the habit of a few editors who flip the display of units to their favourite units rather than following the sources.


 * This is not to defend or justify using poor sources. If a source of information is not the best, it will soon be challenged and either removed or replaced with a better one. That is not at issue. No matter what rule editors follow, there will be inconsistencies.
 * If the rule is metric first or Imperial first, there will be inconsistencies.
 * If the rule is to follow the style guides, there will be inconsistencies, because the style guides are internally inconsistent and inconsistent with each other.
 * If the rule is to follow "British usage" there will be horrendous inconsistencies, because every man and his dog has different ideas about what is British usage. See above!
 * As there is a rule to provide both metric and Imperial equivalents, no-one will be badly disadvantaged if their favourite units of measure don't always come first.


 * Therefore, when deciding which units to put first, the units actually used by the sources of information must carry some weight.
 * Michael Glass (talk) 06:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm with Michael here. I have little tolerance for the campaign among a few older WPs from the UK to enforce their personal preferences for imperial; they'd reintroduce pounds, shillings, and pence if you let them. The fact that old-style will still be in parentheses shows up the political nature of that push.  Tony   (talk)  08:47, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I am old enough to have humped around Hundredweight sacks of cement before the slightly lighter 50 Kilo ones came in. Nobody would be allowed to carry anything that heavy now of course. I am also old enough to have done arithmetic using Pounds, Shillings and Pence. What a good thing those went. As it would be impossible to reliably establish what the relative levels usage among the general population actually are, and sources are all over the place, I think it is better to follow the law of the land in using metric units first except for those exceptions specified by UK law. I suspect there will be a fairly quick change to mostly metric usage as the older generation of newspaper/tv editors retire over the next decade.--Charles (talk) 09:42, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Part of the trouble with that is that people may well be inclined to interpret it narrowly. For example, when measuring distance, I have seen it argued (for months on end) that because the law only mentions distance along roads, and not distances measured as the crow flies, we should draw a distinction as well.  As a result, it was, argued, we should be saying (for example) that the road was 40 mi long, even though the towns were only 45 km apart.  There's no real-world basis for such a distinction, and drawing it is distinctly unhelpful, but we were told that that was what following the law meant.  There are circumstances that the law doesn't mention because there's no reason for it to - these are more frequently imperial because they tend to be on the taught-outside-school end of the spectrum.


 * For my part, I see no compelling reason in this discussion for any significant change of the current advice, which is based on the style guide of the United Kingdom's newspaper of record, in either direction. If Michael and Tony believe that anyone who thinks we should reflect real-world usage, rather than trying to force change on the real world, is a political campaigner - then that's their problem.  I would be more inclined to see it the other way around. Pfainuk talk 10:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Tony, 1) What campaign? 2) How do you know how old those you perceive to be the campaigners are? Isn't it more a case that you are not comfortable with the argument that Wiki should reflect reality and not attempt to suggest that metric units are in common use in the UK when they aren't? -- de Facto (talk). 10:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Michael, you characterise the contest as being "between the pro and anti-metrics", I perceive it as more between anti-imperial and pro-freedom-of-choice groups. I've seen calls to abolish imperial, but I've never seen calls to abolish metric - just calls to restore the freedom to use either metric or imperial at will. If we are to dictate anything it should only be:
 * Use the metric unit as the main unit if UK common usage is near-universally metric.
 * -- de Facto (talk). 10:24, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I concur with Pfainuk: what the hell is wrong with the current guidance? (I'd broaden the thing about science to other specialist topics, but the part about “non-science UK-related articles” looks fine to me.) ― A. di M.​  11:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that Wikipedia should reflect reality, and an excellent way for it to do this would be to note what the reliable sources are saying. Take the conflict about the Hindhead Tunnel. As can be seen from this edit, the dispute was about whether the article should put cubic metres or cubic yards first and ditto with gallons and litres. There is not a mile in sight! This dispute seems to be a textbook example of the importance of giving first place to the units given in the sources. For example, the reader should know whether the tunnel was drilled at the rate of a metre a day or a yard a day. Over 1830 metres, the difference in time between the two rates would be 171 days! Taking note of the sources of information is not so much a matter of rewriting the style guide as using common sense and respecting the sources of information. Michael Glass (talk) 12:45, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Slavishly doing whatever the sources do is actually a very bad approximation to real-life usage, not least because sources have different audiences. You're going to be putting hill elevations in metres in one sentence and feet in the next, because one source happened to prefer metres and the other happened to prefer feet.  You're going to be dealing in miles and kilometres in the same sentence because you're mixing an Australian source with an American source.  It's a recipe for enormous inconsistency.


 * It would also create a rule-gamers' charter, as we have seen with your habit of basing the definition of the "best source" on the units used by the sources.


 * In terms of that article, chances are the tunnel was not dug at exactly a metre a day or exactly a yard a day. Chances are that it varied - some days it went further than that, other days it went nowhere at all.  The article notes that it was dug from both ends and implies that it was finished in less than fifteen months - far less than 1830 days.  Your claim of 171 days' difference between the two rates is patent nonsense.  If we need to know the precise amount of time taken, then doubtless we can provide it.  And when it comes down to it, the precise use of units has to come down to the local editors sorting out their differences. Pfainuk talk 13:35, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I would not put too much emphasis on the BBC. Under UK law is is an offence to stage a political demonstration within one kilometre of Parliament. This has been reported by the BBC on at least two occasions - in both cases they converted "one kilometre" to "half a mile". In both instances I contacted them telling them that they would look very silly if somebody was arrested for protesting 900 metres from Parliament and in hteir defence, they produced the BBC report.´ In both instances I contacted the BBC and they amended their reports within the hour.
 * In response to DeFacto's comment "Do the school textbooks reflect current common usage or the political desire to metricate the UK? I suspect the latter - so how could they be a NPOV alternative?" - the schools teach what is to be used in business, in engineering and in commerce. For the record, the UK's metrication program was initiated in the UK in 1965 by the CBI for business reasons - Parliament was half-hearted whith the result that we now have a half-baked system. The political element came about when the UK joined the EEC as it then was and as the UK's metrication program was the same as the program persued by the original six (introduction of SI in place of the CGS system, or in Britian's case), the imperial system, there was no problem. In short, DeFacto has got the wrong end of the stick. Martinvl (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Martinvl, it isn't clear what your point is. Are you suggesting that because the CBI was involved, that there is no political desire to metricate the UK or that because the CBI was involved Wikipedia articles should be based on school textbooks regardless of the fact that they don't reflect common usage? And another question: what has EEC/EU involvement got to do with how we represent UK units in Wikipedia?


 * The newspaper report that the tunnel was dug at teh rate of one yard (or one metre) per day is a load of rubbish - do the maths´- the excavated part of the tunnel is 1770 metres long and it took just over a year to dig. at one metre a day, starting from both ends, about 1000 metres is unaccounted for. There diusmiss that newspapaer report as being totally unreliable. Yet another instance of the unreliablility of the press. Martinvl (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Martinvl, what newspaper report? As far as I can tell, that unsupported assertion was added in this edit by User:Charlesdrakew. Charles, who has contributed to this discussion may be able to enlighten us on the source of it. -- de Facto (talk). 22:04, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * On checking the source, this BBC South video, which should have replaced or suplemented the existing BBC reference the reporter says "one metre at a time" not one metre per day as I had interpreted it. My bad. The BBC did use metre and not yard though.--Charles (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I feel I must reply to Pfainuk's comments above. Slavishly following any rule will lead to anomalies. However, the idea that following the sources will lead to anomalies in every sentence is a fantasy. Pfainuk has come up with this canard repeatedly and I have challenged him to produce an example of confused usage caused by following the sources again and again. If following the sources is a recipe for enormous inconsistency, a real-life example should be easy to find. The fact that Pfainuk does not or will not provide us with one example of this enormous inconsistency means that his assertion is valueless and should be ignored. Michael Glass (talk) 03:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I also note that Pfainuk made a personal attack. Just because he disagrees with me is no reason for his assumption of bad faith. Referring to the best sources of information is good practice, even though people's selection of sources will be influenced by their assumptions and opinions. Michael Glass (talk) 13:27, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Unclear on fl
This page says fl shouldn't be used on disambiguation pages. Does this mean we should use "fl." without a link or that we should avoid it altogether? Thanks. – hysteria18 (talk) 00:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The latter doesn't make much sense. (Also, you could use fl. → fl. so you get a tooltip text even without a blue link, but then again, someone who doesn't know what fl. means likely doesn't know what floruit means either. ― A. di M.​  10:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a lovely solution. Perhaps that problem could be solved by saying "flourished" rather than "floruit'? (As a sort of temporary measure, I went for including the person's period in their description, like: William Farrington, 15th century English soldier and diplomat. Is that sort of thing acceptable?) – hysteria18 (talk) 12:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Currency confusion
WP:£ says "For obsolete currencies, provide if possible an equivalent, formatted as a conversion, in the modern replacement currency (e.g., decimal pounds for historical pre-decimal pounds-and-shillings figures), or at least a US-dollar equivalent as a default in cases where there is no modern equivalent." I can see here that there was some discussion that touched on this sentence but I remain confused by "formatted as a conversion".

Conversion to what? Does this mean, for example, that 19 UK shillings (old currency) should be represented as 95 pence (present, decimal currency)? Or does it mean that we should find some decent location that attempts an inflation-adjusted conversion? Furthermore, does it mean that we should show old and new, and if so then is there something similar to Template:Convert that might do this job? Right now, this issue affects me at John Horsefield but it crops up quite frequently with articles that I create. - Sitush (talk) 14:48, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that this is confusing - if I were to write that in 1826 in the Cape Colony, the rixdaller was redeemed for "1/6", do I convert it to US dollars using the 1826 conversion rate, do I convert GBP 0.075 to US dollars at teh current conversion rate or do I convert ZAR 0.15 to US dollars at the current conversion rate? The historic context is that the South African currency was pegged to the British currency until the late 1960's - however South Africa decionalised her currency in 1961 at the rate of 1/- = 10c.  In 1971 the UK decimalised at the rate of 1/- = 5p.
 * In my view, conversions of currencies that are more than same 50 years old are meaningless.
 * As an aside, how would one convert Zimbabwean dollars? I have seen a billion [Zimbabwean] dollar which is literally not worth the paper it is printed on - I checked its value again the cost of computer printer paper. Martinvl (talk) 15:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Era convention
Could someone point me to the discussion that supported the change in wording to WP:ERA? I believe it used to say something along the lines of keeping the article's original era convention unless there was "substantial" reason for the change. Now it says: ''Do not arbitrarily change from one style to the other on any given article. Instead, attempt to establish a consensus for change at the talk page.'' This seems to me likely to encourage endless unproductive discussion over a relatively minor point of style; previously, editors who actively watched an article could just say "hey, it's always been this way and there's no substantial reason particular to this article to change it." Less time wasted. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't find actual discussion of that edit. I did find: Editor's question. Edit. Much longer related discussion. Art LaPella (talk) 22:19, 12 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, especially for digging up that long discussion. I think I see what the goal was, so perhaps I'll ask the editor to comment here. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:43, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hm. That editor seems to be blocked for socking. I think I'd rather have the wording go something like Do not change the era style of an article without first seeking consensus on the talk page. Reasons for the proposed change should be specific to the content of the article; a general preference for one style over another is not a reason. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Surely for the sake of impartiality BCE should be used? Should not a carte blanche be granted allowing articles to be updated to BCE - assuming the article is fully and correctly updated. Thecoshman (talk) 11:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, BCE seems like a more contemporary standard, and as mentioned above, a more impartial one with regards to religion. (Though I'm not sure how much that matters given the date system in question is based off the theoretical year of the death of jeebus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EznorbYar (talk • contribs) 11:13, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe instead of suddenly replacing BC with BCE in every article, we should begin using BCE in new articles, while slowly phasing BC out. Aromir19 (talk) 14:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree with this sentiment, it makes sense that as a standard practice articles should be written with the sue of BCE opposed to BC. I personally find it strange that the only reason to keep BC is for the most part that people don't want to change the use of BC as it is what the article has always used. With the sentiment we would never move on; what if we think up a better of referring to reference material, surely we would aim to update all the articles to use the new improved system Thecoshman (talk) 15:26, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In previous discussions of this perennial issue in the archives, I believe the main argument for BC isn't that it exists in a given article. It's that it is more prevalent in writing outside Wikipedia. "1000 BC" gets almost 4 times as many Google hits as "1000 BCE". BC is based on a religion, but so are days of the week ("Thursday" = "Thor's day", etc.) and months, and so is the starting point for BCE. Art LaPella (talk) 15:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * As for “more contemporary”, note that even in books from the late 2000s BC is nearly 4 times as common as BCE. Maybe in 20 years BCE will be more common than BC, but it's not there yet. ― A. di M.​  20:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * A di M, we might want to look at AD and CE in ngrams also, yes? And it might be best to select whole centuries, and early ones for which the distinction is more likely to be made. This ngram evidence is especially interesting. I add the word "by" (feasible when we get larger samples by the means I just mentioned) to narrow the hits to dates rather than contaminants in which the abbreviations mean something different. Such ngrams are a challenge to analyse. They sample diverse literatures. N oetica Tea? 21:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * AD is more often written before the year number, so it's under-represented in the above. See this. (BTW, I should made clear that my position is for allowing both systems, in case it seemed I was in favour of BC/AD only.) ― A. di M.​  22:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

As a possible solution to this problem, is there any way the wiki engine can be set up so that people can choose between years being shown in BC/AD or showing as BCE/CE? If this would be possible, it would be a fine solution as people can simply choose what data format yo use. Though of course, the question must be asked what should the default data format be? Thecoshman (talk) 15:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think it works like that. Aromir19 (talk) 16:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if changing the wiki engine were possible, how would readers make the choice? Do you mean like the date format preference (click "My preferences" above, then click "Date and time")? That choice is more useful rhetorically than practically. If you're only a reader, you have no reason to register, so you can't set a preference. If you're also an editor, you should see dates, and BC/BCE, the same way unregistered readers see them, because you're writing for readers not authors; therefore you shouldn't set a preference even though you can. Art LaPella (talk) 16:16, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a strong reason to propose a change from BC to BCE on Wikipedia because there is no historical record of Christ. You may discuss Josephus use of the word Chrestus in relation to James at your will, but Wikipedia should not be governed or linked to religion and hence BCE should be adopted as standard for WP:ERA. Would it not be really great to form a battalion of editors, timecops. jedi and assistants here, clever enough to fight the time war and agree that using terminology that refers to a fictional person in Wikipedia articles is irrational? A Timelord (talk) 19:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How is BCE less based on Jesus Christ? Christians already read it as "Before/Christian Era" anyways. St John Chrysostom view / my bias 13:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It will allow the 4.5 billion people (66.7%) of the planet that do not believe in Christ to use the alternative terminology of "Common". 2.28.141.25 (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe there are 4.5 billion people who don't believe in God and/or don't believe Jesus was his only son, but I doubt there are that many people who believe Jesus didn't exist. (As for calling him Christ ‘anointed one’, there are plenty of non-Buddhist people who call Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha ‘enlightened one’, not to mention Mahatma (‘great soul’) Gandhi...) ― A. di M.​  19:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * For crying out loud, why isn't this listed under WP:PEREN already? There's even less evidence for the existence of Thor, but we still say Thursday, don't we? :-) ― A. di M.​  20:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * This has been argued ad infinitum for the entirety of Wikipedia's history, and the only consensus that has been reached is to use both era notations. As for Wikipedia not being "governed by or linked to religion", does that mean you think we should replace all references to Thursday (named for pagan god Thor) with Common Fourth Day, or January (named for pagan god Janus) with Common First Month? The point being, just because a secular euphemism exists it doesn't mean Wikipedia automatically must use it. Wikipedia uses what is notable, and while BCE/CE are increasing in notability, BC/AD are still by far the most notable and widespread notations. If we don't use the Quakers' euphemisms for the pagan weekdays, we don't need to use the Jews' euphemism for the notable Christian era notations. Whether "Christ" exists or not is entirely irrelevant, because BCE/CE does nothing to change the fact that the era is based around an estimation of his birth, it only excises explicit reference to that. — FoxCE (talk | contribs) 21:13, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Well done A. di M. and FoxCE, you appear to have spotted the Daleks. These things are consumed by irrational hate. It seems to be some form of mutant created by the Pope. The name Thor seems to be noted in Laurence Waddell's British Edda, and Janus is well referenced in the Roman records, but they do not seem to be figures of worship in any currently practiced religion. This Christ terminology seems to refer to a current, practiced religion called Christianity and hence gives bias to an irrational concept that is not notable in the historical record, in breach of WP:NPOV over other currently practiced religions and should therefore be exterminated in order to save humanity. The time war is on! You can join me and live in peace or continue on your present course co-operating with this irrational enemy and face annihilation. A Timelord (talk) 22:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Disclaimer: I believe that Jesus actually existed. (But this is not the reason why I'm OK with BC/AD; in fact, I believe that Jesus was born several years before AD 1. As for currently practised religions... BTW, the reason why I used the particular phrase for crying out loud, rather than any of its numerous synonyms which had sprung to my mind, is that it was the only one which included no mention of any religious figure or any supernatural being or place or state of existence or spiritual practice. In fact, the first one I thought of was for f–––'s sake, but that references a particular aspect of a particular set of religious beliefs too. ) ― A. di M.​  22:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC) and (after two edit conflicts) 22:53, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The Essenes had a Teacher of Righteousness that you can read all about in the work of John M. Allegro and is clearly notable in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Indeed, the last of these figures seems to have been born several years before 1 CE. So in some respects, we are not in total disagreement. Jesus, however, is a Dalek and should be exterminated. A Timelord (talk) 22:49, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree the original text should be restored. I'd be prepared to have an addition suggesting a slight preference for BCE etc in articles on Asia and Oceania, but for example the British Museum still uses BC, at least for Europe & the Near East. The discussion dug out above seems pretty fimsy to me, & insufficient to overturn a long-established wording. Johnbod (talk) 23:37, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The British Museum must be infested with Daleks, thanks for the information Johnbod, I had no idea that it was linked so closely to the Wikipedia project. I should go and investigate. A Timelord (talk) 00:38, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You do realize that all references to era notations in the Doctor Who universe use BC/AD, not BCE/CE? Including the first episode, which is alternatively called "100,000 BC"? — FoxCE (talk | contribs) 01:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That episode was written in 1963 when Christianity and irrationality dominated well over one third of the world (and the Pope still considered the Sun revolved around the Earth). 2.28.141.25 (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * He seems to be on a campaign to use ASPRO chronology on all relevant pages, without starting any discussions at the relevant Wikiprojects or article talk pages. He refers to it as a 'time war' which he is "waging" or "fighting". Dougweller (talk) 09:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I am interested to know how you have determined the fact I am a male Dougweller? Are you gay? ;-) A Timelord (talk) 16:00, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Because you call yourself “A Timelord” and not “A Timelady”? ― A. di M.​  16:16, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you may have spotted another invading alien here A. di M. although I can find no mention of the Timelady terminology in the records. The terminology to describe a female who lords over time would appear to be the same as that for a male. A Timelord (talk) 23:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Note that this editor has tried to delete any mention of 'Time Lady', including deleting the reference from an article. That lists two incarnations of Romana, "Romana I (Mary Tamm) First incarnation of Time Lady traveller with the Fourth Doctor" and "Romana II (Lalla Ward) Second incarnation of Time Lady traveller with the Fourth Doctor - mark two." I'm beginning to think this editor is not exactly constructive. Dougweller (talk) 14:49, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The full link for your source text refers to Romana as a Time Lord giving equal balance to the argument and hence I AM not being disruptive. A Timelady (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I second the proposal raised by A Timelord. Paul Bedson  ❉ talk ❉ 14:01, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Third. Ban him (and, he changed his name, so WP:SOCKPUPPET). You couldn't tell he was a troll with his very first post about the Christ-myth hypothesis in this thread? St John Chrysostom view / my bias 13:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Fourth. Crucify them! Crucify them! Exterminate the Timelords! Then bow and worship your new masters. Love, The Daleks. 2.28.141.25 (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. I hereby declare this the most awesome Wikipedia discussion thread ever. (But I still support allowing both BC/AD and BCE/CE.) ― A. di M.​  19:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Days of the week
I can't seem to find anything in WP:DATE relating to days of the week. For example, when is it appropriate (if ever) to include the day of the week before the date (e.g. Tuesday 7 February 2012) and when might it be acceptable to abbreviate the day (e.g. Tue). --Jameboy (talk) 23:57, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) When it's relevant (i.e. seldom, but not never), and 2) when space is scarce (e.g. in tables). ― A. di M.​  10:13, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree. Yeah, I struggle to think of a context in which it is relevant, apart from the articles on the days of the week and closely related articles. Tony   (talk)  12:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Black Monday (1987) Art LaPella (talk) 23:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There'll probably be a fair few articles about historical events that will only really make sense if you bear the day of the week in mind. During the banking crisis, much use was made of the weekends as breathing room to hammer out rescue deals.  Many of the events of the Arab Spring become clearer when you realise the significance of Friday.  That sort of thing. Pfainuk talk 18:55, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Pfainuk on that one. Martinvl (talk) 07:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In articles about elections (usually Tuesday in the U.S. and Thursday in Britain; often Saturday or Sunday in other countries), it's often helpful to readers to anchor the chronology of preceding and succeeding events, and sometimes the dates of press reports, by referring to the day as well as the date. For example a Tuesday election might be affected by something happening late on Friday, over the weekend, or on the day before (Monday). Tuesday election returns reported on a Wednesday might be less complete than those on Thursday or Friday. Saturday and Sunday editions of newspapers often differ from the weekday ones; sometimes smaller and less-read, sometimes much bigger and more widely-read. ¶ I'd think that abbreviating the day would be appropriate (though certainly not compulsory) in about the same circumstances as abbreviating months, when needed to compress table columns or give them a uniform width, and sometimes in footnotes, but very, very rarely in the body prose of an article (unless as part of a direct quotation).—— Shakescene (talk) 09:05, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * All good sensible advice, thankyou. Do you think WP:DATE should be updated with some of this info? --Jameboy (talk) 22:28, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Units in specialist topics
In the present version of the guideline, science is singled out as the only context where a particular set of units is recommended, but I think it should apply to other topics as well. Hence, I suggest the following changes:

Was the change to the main unit advice for non-science UK articles ever discussed?
I've searched, but failed to find it - so I wondered if anyone still reading here can remember whether a discussion took place to decide on the advice change from this (circa March 2009): To this (circa September 2009): To this, the current advice: -- de Facto (talk). 13:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In general, the primary units are SI (37 kilometres (23 mi)); however, US customary units are the primary units in US-related topics, and it is permissible to have imperial units as primary units in UK-related topics.
 * With topics strongly associated with places, times or people, put the units most appropriate to them first. In US articles, this will usually be United States customary units; for the UK Imperial units for some topics and metric units for others, and a mixture of units for others (see, for example, the Times Online style guide under "Metric").
 * In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (44 kilogram (97 lb)), but imperial units are still used as the main units in some contexts, including:
 * miles for geographical distances, miles per hour for speeds, and miles per imperial gallon for fuel consumption;
 * feet/inches and stones/pounds for personal height and weight measurements;
 * imperial pints for draught beer/cider and bottled milk.


 * There was a lot of discussion during this period, though I haven't looked for them. The original advice (stable for years) was that all units in a UK-related article should be from the same system and that we didn't care whether that system was metric or imperial.  This was silly, because it meant that we couldn't actually use units that people use: we couldn't put temperature in Celsius unless we put distance in kilometres.  If we put distance in miles, temperature had to be measured in Fahrenheit.  Never mind that the two have completely different usages and there's no inherent reason why they can be connected.


 * If you do find those discussions, you will note that most of the users discussing it were the same as in the recent discussion. Pfainuk talk 18:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah. I'd be particularly interested to find the reasoning for the change from the second example above (either system as primary or mixed) to the current position. -- de Facto (talk). 18:33, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Findings (hence action)
After spending a great deal of time researching the changes I discovered the following:-

Up until this edit (when the UK specific advice was removed altogether) of 2009-08-17T17:14:44 by "A. di M." the advice was:
 * UK-related topics may have either SI or imperial units as the primary units.

Imperial as an option was restored in this edit of 2009-08-21T11:30:57 by "A. di M." when the advice became: ... and for the UK Imperial units for some topics and metric units for others (see, for example, the Times Online style guide under "Metric").

Then this of 2009-09-08T17:49:39 by "A. di M." edit happened, and it became: ... and for the UK, they usually are metric units for most measurements, but imperial units for some measurements such as road distances and draught beer (see, for example, Metrication in the United Kingdom and the the Times Online style guide under "Metric").

That last change to being usually metric has persisted, despite no apparent reasoning for it. The accompanying edit summary was a brusque: "clarify", and looking through the discussion page from that era there is nothing I can see on this change, or agreeing to it. For that reason I have restored the content in the current version to reflect, as close as possible without undoing other changes, the state prior to this edit. Such a change certainly needs discussion before being proceeded with. -- de Facto (talk). 20:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry. That change was accepted in 2009, and has stood since then. You can't just revert it now without consensus, and you have seen from the many discussions that you have had that there is no consensus for changing it back now. - David Biddulph (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you show where and when it was accepted - I couldn't find it? I think it slipped in under the radar. Without a demonstrated consensus it can't stand. Do you disagree? -- de Facto (talk). 21:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The amount of edit activity on this passage proves editors were paying attention to it, as does the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 123 (which was in April and May of 2009, and seems to have been inconclusive). The fact that the passage was being paid attention to, plus the fact that it has survived more than 2 years, demonstrates consensus even if consensus can't be found in the talk page. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * That it has escaped attention does not imply that the change has achieved consensus, or is therefore justified - it just means that it has escaped attention, and should be dealt with urgently. Without evidence of any consensus the change should be reverted. Discussion about re-appling the change can then commence.


 * I was amazed to see that clause in the the guidelines, knowing that the UK traditionally uses imperial units, and that there is still strong resistance there to the use of metric units. And now it appears that the change was spirited through, without evidence that imperial had been superseded by metric in common use in the UK. Without that evidence, the guidelines must be changed back to reflect the last known position there. -- de Facto (talk). 22:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Discussion on this point that overlaps the time period of the last edit found by DeFacto may be found at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 125. Due to the length of the discussion, I have not found passages within the discussion that directly explain why the current wording was adopted, but clearly the discussion and the change were contemporaneous. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's the discussion that I read. It tends to support "may have either SI or imperial units as the primary units" (but with no evidence) but certainly doesn't support the change that gave "... and for the UK, they usually are metric units for most measurements...". And that change, as it represents an assertion of fact and not just a balance of opinion, would require hard reliable evidence to support it too and not merely the opinion (OR) of a few Wikipedia editors. The best we can really say, with the lack of contraditory evidence at the moment, is "UK-related topics should have imperial units as the primary units." -- de Facto (talk). 22:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I interpret "for the UK, they usually are metric units for most measurements" means that well-written articles that conform to this guideline will usually have metric units as the primary unit, not that most usage of English in the UK will use metric units. The situations are not comparable for many reasons, including that conversions are provided in Wikipedia but not in much other usage, Wikipedia is not a tabloid, Wikipedia is not casual spoken conversation, and Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. UK usage could vary widely depending on the type of usage that is examined, and much usage, such as casual conversation, is not accessible to language scholars. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a different discussion though. Currently we don't have any evidence that the last change had any backing, let alone evidence to support it. Have you found any yet? -- de Facto (talk). 23:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The fact that the passage was discussed and the current version has been around for over 2 years is sufficient evidence of backing. Every publication is entitled to make its own style rules, including Wikipedia. We usually use metric units followed by an SI conversion in non-scientific UK-related articles because we said so. No evidence is required, just backing, because it is a matter for our collective discretion. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The decision to change the advice from allowing either system equally in UK articles to insisting on usually using metric units was not discussed, as far I we know - or have you found that discussion now? -- de Facto (talk). 23:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Would DeFacto please check the link that he gave for the Times on-line style guide. The link that he gave appears to be incorrect. Martinvl (talk) 06:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, the links I gave are perfectly correct - exactly as per the Wiki diffs that I quoted. Here are the same quotes unrendered:
 * 2009-08-21T11:30:57: "

... and for the UK Imperial units for some topics and metric units for others (see, for example, the Times Online style guide under "Metric")."
 * 2009-09-08T17:49:39: "... and for the UK, they usually are metric units for most measurements, but imperial units for some measurements such as road distances and draught beer (see, for example, Metrication in the United Kingdom and the the Times Online style guide under "Metric")."
 * -- de Facto (talk). 16:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Looks like the reference has gone behind the paywall then, which is annoying. The guide is available through the wayback machine here. Pfainuk talk 16:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Would it be kosher wrt copyright law to link to the Wayback Machine copy on WP:MOSNUM? I'd be tempted to say that if they didn't want people from the future to read that page they should have used robots.txt, but IANAL, and I fear that that would be like if I accidentally left my car open with the keys inside, somebody stole it, and the police told me that if I didn't want that to happen I should have taken the keys out and locked the doors. ― A. di M.​  22:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Better not. The Times / News International own the copyright on it and almost certainly haven't given the Wayback Machine the right to reproduce it. Wikipedia does seek to respect copyright holders' rights, as for example in eliminating links to the lyrics of Beatles songs. NebY (talk) 22:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to undo an apparently un-discussed and un-agreed change to the guidelines regarding non-scientific UK articles
In the absence then of any rational defence of the current wording, we need to agree what to replace it with. I propose this as being as close as possible to the form of wording most recently agreed upon: It also reflects the reality and character of the situation in the UK. -- de Facto (talk). 07:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit will be Imperial units for some topics and metric units for others, and a mixture of units for others.


 * Is your proposal intended to replace this:
 * In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit is generally a metric unit (44 kilogram (97 lb)), but imperial units are still used as the main units in some contexts, including:
 * miles for geographical distances, miles per hour for speeds, and miles per imperial gallon for fuel consumption;
 * feet/inches and stones/pounds for personal height and weight measurements;
 * imperial pints for draught beer/cider and bottled milk.
 * with this?


 * In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit will be Imperial units for some topics and metric units for others, and a mixture of units for others.
 * Michael Glass (talk) 09:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Michael, effectively, yes - as there was no apparent discussion, or consensus reached, before that complete re-write of the clause was performed, and saved under the misleading edit summary of "clarify". Read my comments above, and follow the diffs to see what I mean. My proposal is, as far as I can tell, and given that the Times style guide is now inaccessible, as close as now possible the last fully agreed version of that clause. -- de Facto (talk). 09:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * DeFacto, first of all I would like to thank you for clarifying the scope of your intended wording. Do you think that it could be more concisely expressed like this?
 * In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit may be Imperial units, metric units or a mixture of units.
 * Michael Glass (talk) 11:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I was using, as close as possible, the last agreed wording. The wording prior to the, apparently un-discussed and un-agreed (no-one has as yet been able to show where it was discussed or agreed), change made in this edit of 2009-09-08T17:49:39, as discussed above. But as your wordng effectively says the same thing, and more concisely, I'd be happy with that. -- de Facto (talk). 11:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. Repeated discussions here and elsewhere have shown clear consensus for keeping the existing wording. As Jc3s5h has pointed out it is entirely up to Wikipedia what style we choose to use for units in British related articles regardless of unsourced speculation as to what current usage may or may not be.--Charles (talk) 09:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Charles, can you direct us to some of that "discussion", particulary that where the change was agreed. I've been searching for it, and have been unable to find it. Presumably it included evidence that imperial use has been superseded by metric use in the UK on the scale required to justify the drastic change in emphasis, from imperial use to metric use, given to the advice by the change. Without evidence of that discussion, we cannot, of course, assume anything other than the change was not discussed or agreed? -- de Facto (talk). 10:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oppose: DeFacto's proposal is made on a false premise that Imperial units "reflect the reality and character of the situation in the UK". If this is DeFacto's own experience, he has obviously: He is also blind to the numerous errors that occur in newspapers due to journalists incorrectly converting units for the "benefit" of their readers. Martinvl (talk) 13:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Never seen building plans (as opposed to estate agent's plans) (100% metric)
 * Never paid any attention when he has gone into a grocery shop (everything is in metric units although many have imeprial as supplementary units).
 * Never been into a haberdashery (cloth and cotton are sold by the metre and wool in 100 gram balls). *Never taken notice of motor car specifications (width, length, height, bolt thread sizes are metric, even though speedos are dual unit and tyre specifications are part-imperial).
 * Never looked at local authority planning documents.
 * Never looked at niche magazines on topics such as archeology, bird watching, numismatics and philately.
 * Never looked at his own medical notes.
 * Never done compound unit arithmetic at school (ie manipulaiton of lbs/oz, ft/in etc).
 * Never checked a water bill (water is sold by the cubic metre).
 * Never looked at an ordnance suvey maps (contours at 10 m intervals plus a metre-based grid system.
 * Never looked at farming magazines (metric apart from the occasional use of acres for farm avertisements).


 * Martinvl, thanks for your comments, but they have absolutely no relevance at all to this discussion. The proposal being discussed is one to simply reverse the changes made to the guidance in this edit; on the basis that they were apparently never discussed prior to the change, and that they were apparently never agreed either. If you can point us to the discussion over them please do. Otherwise will you please reconsider your verdict based, not on what you would like the guidance to ultimately say, but on whether the current proposal is a fair summary of the guidance before the apparently un-discussed and un-agreed changes took place. Once we have re-established the agreed and consensus-based starting point, we can then discuss any subsequent changes or alterations to that sound foundation. Presumably you do not want us to believe that you are happy for un-discussed changes to be sneaked in to the guidelines, and be allowed to remain there in perpetuity even if they are rumbled? -- de Facto (talk). 13:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oppose : DeFacto's description is not correctly representing the situation. It is obvious that many people interested in the subject (including some of the strong opponents of the 'primarily metric' view) were well aware of the wording of that section of the page. The discussion leading up to the change in September 2009 is archived here, and it is obvious that many eyes were on the subject at the time, and they were well able to object to the September wording if they had chosen to do so; to describe the change as "sneaked in" is not supportable. It was looked at again in November 2009 when there was further fine tuning to the wording, and in March 2010, so it is not reasonable to suggest that the change made in September 2009 was "sneaked in" and that nobody has noticed it subsequently until DeFacto came along now to point it out to us. There has never been unanimity in this discussion, and I doubt whether there ever will be, but that was the wording which best represented the consensus at the time, and that is why the wording has remained broadly unchanged for the past two and a half years. - David Biddulph (talk) 14:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * David, as far as we can see, the edit that I am proposing be undone (as far as is possible after such a delay) was not discussed in that September discussion (that's the discussion I checked through previously, and discus aove) or agreed upon prior to it being performed - so it got in under the radar. That some of its wording may have been discussed in the meantime - perhaps on the mistaken assumption that it was a bona fide and agreed addition - does no legitimise it. That it has survived for so long unchallenged does not mean that that edit must now be treated as if it were correctly accepted. Would you be similarly blasé about such an event if the result was guidance that did not meet with your approval? -- de Facto (talk). 17:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * My personal preferences don't come into it, but regardless of what my preferences might be in any hypothetical case I would regard something which has been in place (as this has) for two and a half years as the status quo. You keep saying that the September 2009 change was not discussed, but the editor concerned did suggest it in the talk page before introducing the change to the MoS, and I still fail to believe that all the editors who were watching this part of the MoS so closely might have blinked at the same time and allowed it to slip by "under the radar" as you put it.  We'll wait to see how much support there is for your RfC for a change now. - David Biddulph (talk) 19:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * David, it certainly isn't my RfC; it is entirely Jc3s5h's RfC, and based on a misrepresentation of my concerns and my proposal to rectify the situation. -- de Facto (talk). 19:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Considering the amount of discussion this went through in 2009, even though we can't find a specific endorsement of the current wording in the 2009 discussion, I believe this proposal should be in the form of a Request for Comment rather than just rehashing it among the group that has been discussing it recently to the point of driving others away from the discussion. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If, between us all, we can't find discussion over such a fundamental change, we can surely only assume that it wasn't discussed - especially given the accompanying curt edit summary. Do you think that it's too much to expect contributors here to therefore accept that the correct (and honourable) course of action is to undo that edit? If there is good evidence to support it as a valid change, then a quick "show of hands" would quickly have it reinstated anyway. -- de Facto (talk). 17:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose The current language, posted with the edit summary, "clarify", is a clarification of the previous text. I think we can assume it was not challenged because it was see as a valuable clarification of the intent of that guidance not a substantive change. To return to the ambiguous and practically useless previous version only makes sense if we can benefit from eliminating meaningful guidance for UK units. Joja  lozzo  19:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no way that edit could be described as a "clarification" - it was a complete change of emphasis and effective meaning from:
 * "...for the UK Imperial units for some topics and metric units for others, and a mixture of units for others..."
 * To:
 * "...and for the UK, they usually are metric units for most measurements, but imperial units for some measurements such as road distances and draught beer..."
 * Are you opposing my proposal that such a wide-ranging and controversial change should not be accepted without discussion or approval or are you opposing the guideline content that would necessarily result if this un-discussed and un-agreed change was allowed to stand? -- de Facto (talk). 20:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I can see how one might think the new language is a substantive change but by my reading it simply clarifies which topics use metric, imperial and mixed units rather than the ambiguous and useless some and other topics. I oppose this proposal because I find the claim that the current language was put there without consensus as extremely unlikely and because the proposed replacement is a meaningless guideline. The fact that there was no explicit discussion (I'll take the proposer's word for it) can be easily explained by viewing the change as a welcome clarification of the "guidance" that was in place at the time. Joja  lozzo  20:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that it seems unlikely that such a change could get through unchallenged, which is why I have gone to such lengths to find any discussion about it or consensus for it. But I found none and no-one here has yet been able to find any either. The result of the change is that the guideline now misrepresents UK reality and, because its wording invites misinterpretation, it disallows imperial main units for contexts where imperial main units should be used. We saw that in the case of the Hindhead Tunnel article. The result there was a change of the long standing use of imperial main units to metric main units; because the interpretation that was enforced in the discussion there was effectively that if the context of the article is not one of the specific examples given in the guideline of imperial usage, then metric units must be used as the main units in that article - regardless of what units would naturally be used in that context in the UK. -- de Facto (talk). 22:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Delightful as it is that an editor called DeFacto refuses to recognise a de facto regime, this proposal comes entirely too late to be couched as upholding due procedure. It is an attempt to make a significant change to the MoS as it stands and has stood for years, and it consists, quite explicitly, of a proposed new wording. De Facto argues above that the guideline "misrepresents UK reality", disregards "what units would naturally be used in the UK" and "disallows imperial main units for contexts where imperial main units should be used", but has not established that there is any single "UK reality", what it might be, that Wikipedia should follow it, what "natural usage" in the UK is, whether there is such a thing as natural usage, that Wikipedia should follow whatever it might be or even that imperial units should have been used in any articles where they were disallowed. NebY (talk) 21:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Just for information, the current rule is based on UK usage - as reflected by the style guide of the Times, which is Britain's newspaper of record.


 * In general we follow the rule that we should use the units in use locally, at least for articles with strong national ties to an English-speaking country: this is why US-related articles use US customary units. As a general rule this has various benefits, not least the principle of least astonishment.


 * In the UK, the units in common use can vary widely depending on person and context, so it's helpful to pin it down by basing our advice on an external standard - the Times in this case. As a widely respected newspaper, the Times is a logical choice, and notably it clarifies the situations in which imperial units really are nigh-on universal in modern British usage.  The MOS will be the poorer for our not being able to link to that style guide directly, though it seems to me that it may still be sensible to cite it without a link.


 * Clearly, this proposal removes this guidance and essentially authorises a free-for-all on any UK-related article. I agree with others that this is a bad idea.


 * It is mildly ironical that we have both de Facto and Michael arguing that the status quo wording failed Hindhead Tunnel (given their wildly divergent views on the subject). I actually think it succeeded in providing the basis for an appropriate mix of units for that article, accurately reflecting modern British usage. Pfainuk talk 22:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Me too (except that if a source doesn't even know how to multiply or divide by 1.609344 and round the result, then we should classify it as non-reliable and find another one, not reporting the same values in Wikipedia's voice (i.e. not as a direct or indirect quotation) and then adding a footnote saying they're wrong.) I'm not entirely convinced about miles for cables, but that's an indirect quotation (“A [...] leaflet [...] listed”) so it should be left alone anyway. ― A. di M.​   01:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The site in question is a British Government agency site and as such should be authoritative. Martinvl (talk) 11:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It should, but it isn't. I'm sorry but I trust my calculator more than the British Government when it comes to the fact that 1.83 divided by $4 1/2$ equals $10 7/8$... ≈ 1.1 not 1.2, and conversely 1.2 times $10 7/8$ equals $10 110/127$ not 1.83, especially when the 8 and the 9 are next each other on the keyboard. [On reading the rest of the sentence, it's more likely to have to do with the fact that the 1 and the 2 are next each other, though 1.2 for 1.1 is not as likely a typo. WTF?] <span style="background:#00ae00;white-space:nowrap;padding:3px;color:black;font:600 1em 'Gentium Book Basic', serif">― A. di M.​  17:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC) [and 17:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)]
 * In the Hindhead Tunnel dispute the matter would have been settled much more quickly if it had been decided by consensus. Instead, the dispute dragged on for months as people fought over the policy. A straightforward rule works well when things are straightforward, but when things are more complex, as with the usage of units in the UK, leaving the choice to the good sense of editors can work better than rules that cannot cope with every eventuality. While the consensus is in favour of the wording as it stands, this policy will not do anything to regularise the variety of usage that can be found in UK-based articles. Michael Glass (talk) 03:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to avoid any preference for metric vs. customary units in UK
Should the proposal by DeFacto below, to avoid expressing any preference for the system of units to list first in non-scientific UK-related articles, be adopted? The "Manual of Style/Dates and numbers" currently indicates metric units are generally the main unit (that is, listed first, followed by a conversion if appropriate). Jc3s5h (talk) 18:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment That is a misrepresentation of the proposal I am making, and why has it been inserted here, above my actual proposal? -- de Facto (talk). 19:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Note I've now moved it to after the original discussion content. -- de Facto (talk). 20:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

DeFacto's proposal, duplicated here due to DeFacto's heading rearrangement:
 * In the absence then of any rational defence of the current wording, we need to agree what to replace it with. I propose this as being as close as possible to the form of wording most recently agreed upon:


 * In non-science UK-related articles: the main unit will be Imperial units for some topics and metric units for others, and a mixture of units for others.


 * It also reflects the reality and character of the situation in the UK.
 * -- de Facto (talk). 07:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

End Defacto's proposal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jc3s5h  (talk • contribs)  20:31:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Jc3s5h, you now need to explain the summary you provided in your RfC summary. You characterised my proposal to undo an apparently un-discussed and un-approved change to the guidelines as a proposal: "to avoid expressing any preference for the system of units to list first in non-scientific UK-related articles" - which it clearly wasn't. There is a presumption that an RfC summary will be neutral - your summary clearly was not. -- de Facto (talk). 21:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Strictly speaking, the proposal is to avoid expressing a preference between imperial and metric systems of measurement. It seems to me like a minor point, since there are no other realistic candidates, but I would not object to describing as avoiding a preference of metric over imperial rather than avoiding any preference. On the other hand, if you insist on describing it as reverting a non-consensus change, there was consensus. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It was I who made the proposal, I know what the proposal was about. I spent hours trawling through the guideline's history and through its discussion, investigating whether there was a consensus, or even any discussion of the surprising change. I found neither. I asked for help to find any such content here - but no-one here has managed identify any such content. I then made the proposal after that investigation, and in the light of my findings. The proposal is to undo that change - because of the lack of apparent discussion or consensus - nothing more, nothing less. What the result would be if that change is undone is incidental, and irrelevant - to argue against the undo because you dislike what the resultant guideline would say is to betray the principle that significant changes require a consensus. At each step of the way I have been careful not to discount the possibilty of a justification being found, and have tried to choose my words carefully, because I still assume that a change of such significance must have been discussed and approved. Are you now claiming that you are aware of a consensus for the change? If so please point out its whereabouts to us, and perhaps it will enable us put this discussion to rest. -- de Facto (talk). 22:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * IMO, a neutral RfC would be something like "Please comment on a proposal to revert the current language on units of measure in non-science UK-related articles to the previous state on 2009-08-21 11:30:57." No need to include consensus, discussion issues or intent.  Joja  lozzo  22:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, and the problem now is that because the summary (and that is what appears in the listings elsewhere) was so biased and so misrepresentative of the spirit of my proposal, that we cannot now assume that those who have come here to comment, have come here with an open mind, free of prejudice and preconceptions of what the issue actually is. This in turn means that the result is, in effect, null and void. It also means that this topic is now blighted, and unlikely to get a neutral or dispassionate hearing in the near future. -- de Facto (talk). 07:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I came here to comment as a completely uninvolved editor and I am totally open-minded on the subject. Before the RfC, I had taken no part in this discussion, or any previous discussion related to the subject. I simply believe the current guideline wording is better than the wording that preceded it. Sorry &sup;&deg;<b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#8B0000">Hot</b><b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#006400">Crocodile</b><b style="color:black;font-family:Wingdings;">...... +</b> 10:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yet your comment that the "current guideline wording is better than the wording that preceded it" appears to be a response to the misrepresentative title applied to the RfC, rather than a response to the original proposal which was more about the process by which the original content was overridden. -- de Facto (talk). 12:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No, my comment is very specific because you, yourself, told me below that "the proposal isn't for new wording, it is to revert". &sup;&deg;<b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#8B0000">Hot</b><b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#006400">Crocodile</b><b style="color:black;font-family:Wingdings;">...... +</b> 14:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * To revert, yes, because the change (even if we prefer the new wording more than the old) was apparently not discussed and not agreed - the normal consensus process was evaded. Or are we only going to object to failure to follow an accepted and important process if the end result does not align with our own, personal, POV? To be clear: do you oppose the idea that the un-discussed and un-agreed change should not be allowed to stand per se, or do you oppose the proposal simply because you prefer the current wording, regardless of how it got there? -- de Facto (talk). 14:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose [repeat of what I posted above while headers were being shuffled] - The current language, posted with the edit summary, "clarify", is a clarification of the previous text. I think we can assume it was not challenged because it was see as a valuable clarification of the intent of that guidance not a substantive change. To return to the ambiguous and practically useless previous version only makes sense if we can benefit from eliminating meaningful guidance for UK units. Joja  lozzo  19:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose current guideline is clear and accurate, whereas the proposed wording is confusing, vague, and without any guidance for editors. I do not agree that the proposed wording "reflects the reality and character of the situation in the UK" except for market-stall fruit and veg sellers perhaps. &sup;&deg;<b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#8B0000">Hot</b><b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#006400">Crocodile</b><b style="color:black;font-family:Wingdings;">...... +</b> 22:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: the proposal isn't for new wording, it is to revert an apparently un-discussed and un-aggreed change of wording. -- de Facto (talk). 22:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: The fact that the extant wording has been there for years is proof of consensus. Your position that it "doesn't have consensus" because it wasn't discussed to your personal satisfaction is a crock. This tired argument is getting very, very worn out in MOS disputes. WP:MOS and, among its sub-pages, MOSNUM in particular, are closely watched by a very wide array of editors. MOS and MOSNUM are among the most closely inspected guidelines on the entire system (some of its sub-pages like MOS:CAPS aren't, but MOSNUM is crucial). This whole concept has been very well covered at WP:Silence and consensus. See also WP:CONSENSUS itself: "Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity." — SMcCandlish    Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 22:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose: That's not guidance at all, it's chaos. The purpose of WP:MOS and its sub-pages like this one is to set a standard, not describe vagaries of off-wiki practice. MOS is emphatically a prescriptive and sometimes proscriptive work. While what it prescribes is based on descriptivist observation of what reliable external sources say about grammar and style in general modern English usage, it is not itself a descriptive piece. The one and only purpose of MOS is to prescribe consistent style to ease reader confusion and editor frustration. MOS picks a standard, often arbitrarily, and sticking with it. This proposal is an explicit attempt to pick no standard at all, and let people do whatever the heck they feel like.  It's a gross misapplication of the principles behind WP:ENGVAR, which exists to ease cultural tension when it actually arises, not sow discord by enshrining regional dialectal peccadilloes with impunity. PS: We should be preferring metric generally, even in "US topics". Americans have been systematically taught metric units for 3 generations. — SMcCandlish    Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 22:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: you obviously misunderstand the proposal (possibly as a result of Jc3s5h's misrepresentation of it in the RfC summary). The proposal isn't for new wording, it is to revert an apparently un-discussed and un-agreed change of wording. The resultant text would be the latest demonstrably agreed wording for that clause. I see though that the current wording aligns with your admitted preference for metric; so unless you are a person of honour, you would see no benefit from agreeing to the principled reversion that I am proposing. -- de Facto (talk). 22:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: I personally think it's very clear, you propose dumping the current well-worded guideline and reverting to something that gives little to no guidance (in fact it will be worse than it used to be, as it can't have a link to The Times Online style guide, which presumably used to clarify things that the vague wording here couldn't). &sup;&deg;<b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#8B0000">Hot</b><b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#006400">Crocodile</b><b style="color:black;font-family:Wingdings;">...... +</b> 23:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: DeFacto's proposal is descriptive rather than prescriptive. At the moment, UK articles are a mixture: some are metric first, others are Imperial first and many are mixed. There is no prospect that this will change, if only because the sources of information on which the articles are based are themselves inconsistent in their use of units. The present wording might seem clear and well-worded, but it did not resolve the Hindhead Tunnel dispute. Nor has it changed the variety of usage in UK articles in the two years that it has stood. In the circumstances, a descriptive approach, with a nudge towards more consistency of usage might carry more weight than a prescriptive stance that is honoured more in the breach than in the observance. Michael Glass (talk) 00:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - This is a radical step that has not been clearly thought out. Students are big users of Wikipedia - in the UK their work is alomost entirely in metric units. I also know, thought I am not at liberty to give more details, that compilers of sensitive commercial, industrial and government reports use Wikipedia to get an initial overview of their subject. Their reprots will be in metric units. In short, by using imperial rather than metirc units, we will be debasing Wikipedia in the eyes of serious users. Furthermore, what does DeFacto means by "Imperial units"? Prior to metrication, road lengths were measured in miles and chains - many railway lines still are. Does he propose using miles and chains? If not, then serious thought would need to be given as to what is meant by "Imperial units". Does he propose using Fahrenheit instead of Celsius? Even the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail use Celsius in their weather reports! How does he propose describing electrical units - they are based on metric units, not imperial units?

In short, the effort to define what is means makes it a non-starter, not to mention "If it ain't broke, don't mend it". Martinvl (talk) 07:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. Another obvious misunderstanding of the proposal I made, possibly due to the misrepresentaion in the RfC title and summary. The question is whether we revert an apparently un-discussed and un-agreed change, not whether the previous version aligns with our personal and unrepresentative POV. -- de Facto (talk). 08:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment Would DeFacto please enlighten us as to why he discribes the changes as being "apparently un-discussed and un-agreed" when this page has 536 watchers? Martinvl (talk) 08:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Again? Have you read any of the proposal that you have "opposed", or the discussion on it, particularly my contributions? -- de Facto (talk). 09:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It can happen, since the page can get lots of edits in a short time and some can go unnoticed. But I don't believe it happened in this case, as evidenced by the sheer number of times the point has been discussed since.  A bit late to the party with this, but I oppose the proposed change because the current wording is clearer - particularly given that we'll need to remove the reference to the Times style guide (though obviously that doesn't mean we can't base our advice on it).  I think that there are changes that are worth making to this section, such as A. di M.'s proposal recently discussed.  But I don't see this proposal as an improvement. Pfainuk talk 18:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Oppose Responding to the RfC (which I assume has been recently posted, although the discussion here looks to be largely over). I can't see any good reason to revert to the previous wording, which is less clear than the newer phrasing. Whether or not that change was made against consensus seems to me to be a moot point, given that the change is, to my mind, a clear improvement, with far less ambiguity. Anaxial (talk) 22:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Move to Close - This appears to be a one-person campaign that has no hope of achieving supportive consensus. A related discussion in which lack of support for the proponent's interpretation of units guidance was rejected on technical grounds at Talk:Hindhead Tunnel, immediately preceding this discussion, suggests a pattern of "not hearing". It's clear to me that there would be very little support for this proposal whether the RfC were perfectly neutrally presented or not. The participants will not consider the proposed guideline language to be an improvement whether sufficient discussion occurred when the current language was put in place or not. I propose we close it now per WP:SNOWBALL. Joja lozzo  16:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Strongly agree. I believe that the biased way that Jc3s5h presented this RfC was a disgrace, and left no room for it to succeed - it was doomed to fail from the outset. Not only that, but the subject has been blighted because of that too. Perhaps that was the objective, I do not know. Either way, I don't see any point in continuing with it. -- de Facto (talk). 16:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree noting that it would be disgraceful to suggest that the many persons commenting and !voting have not properly considered the matter. I hope we can accept that although we have not reached unanimity, we have reached consensus and can move on without returning to the same arguments in a multiplicity of discussions of articles and policies. NebY (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree. Different wording of the RfC would not have given a different outcome. Can we get rid of the tag here now? &sup;&deg;<b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#8B0000">Hot</b><b style="font-family:Rockwell;color:#006400">Crocodile</b><b style="color:black;font-family:Wingdings;">...... +</b> 14:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose: unlike Wikipedia, the Imperial units are rarely used outside of UK. The use of Imperial units will violate the principle of least astonishment. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 20:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Question. Hi Czarkoff, do you think imperial units are much used inside the UK? -- de Facto (talk). 20:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * In everyday American life (the kind that most American readers of Wikipedia lead), U.S. Customary units (a very close relative to Imperial units) are still almost universal, with some tiny exceptions such as drug doses and (only because of legal regulations) some wine bottles and soda cans. The Coke bottle in front of me reads 16.9 FL OZ (1.06 PT) 500 ml. So it's obvious how Americans think. Now an article about Coke might well in this specific instance describe a half-liter (16.9 fl oz) bottle because that's more logical and less approximate, but to say Imperial units are rarely used outside the UK, or that American readers (who are probably the largest single group of English-language Wikipedia readers) would understand 500 mL better than a pint or 16.9 fluid ounces is just not true. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * As for “probably”, . (But the American pint is smaller than the imperial pint, and I suspect there are lots of Americans unaware of this.) <span style="background:#00ae00;white-space:nowrap;padding:3px;color:black;font:600 1em 'Gentium Book Basic', serif">― A. di M.  10:24, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Close I agree with the view of Hotcrocodile (23:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)). --Walter Siegmund (talk) 03:28, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per Candlish and Martin. If anything, preference to metric should be urged and phased in. St John Chrysostom ΔόξατωΘεώ 19:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Closure Request. User DeFacto has been blocked from editing for an indefinite period. I suggest therefore that this thread be closed and that the status quo regarding units of measure be observed.  New suggestions should be via a new thread. Martinvl (talk) 13:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The RFC expires tomorrow anyway (they last 30 days, right?). After the bot removes the RFC banner, let's just put archive top and archive bottom around this thread. <span style="background:#00ae00;white-space:nowrap;padding:3px;color:black;font:600 1em 'Gentium Book Basic', serif">― A. di M.  15:10, 17 March 2012 (UTC)