User talk:Dsp13/Archive 4

Genealogical query
See Talk:John Fogge and also Talk:William Stafford (conspirator); there is a question about Fogge's father and it gets into the Ahnentafel on the Stafford page, and on other pages too (because Catherine Parr was a descendant of Fogge). This is talking about gentry from the early 15th century in Kent, and what we should do when sources disagree. I'd be happiest with going along with the Rosemary Horrox view from her ODNB article on Fogge, which takes a view. If we have to do the NPOV thing and quote genealogists also, the Ahnentafel approach is not really that feasible (there are obvious mistakes there anyway). Absent heraldic visitations, it seems that there may not be adequate reliable sources for this kind of thing; and we want to avoid arguing over primary sources when a historian has done that for us. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree with your general instincts - though know less than nothing about C15th Kent.Dsp13 (talk) 21:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

19th C periodicals
Hello Dsp. I recently started work on a new article List of 19th century literary periodicals (still in progress). Then I came across the work you've done over the years at List of nineteenth-century British periodicals, impressive. Now I'm not sure how to proceed. My vision was a single article with England (and colonies), US, France and perhaps some other misc places, one table for each, focused on literary periodicals. Depending how many, perhaps limited to the popular or historically significant ones. I wanted to check if you had any thoughts or comments about it. Green Cardamom (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi there. I don't have any particular preferences. Your table format looks very nice. I put my list together less systematically, partly as preparation for a course I taught on periodicals in early 2008: the info I put in if I remembered / had it to hand was title, dates, founder, frequency, price and places where it or more about it could be found on the internet. No doubt the internet's changed since 2008 - and if I was doing it now I'd probably go to Laurel Brake & Marysa Demoor's Dictionary of C19th Journalism as a guide to what should go in. Some wiki-editors seem to be getting very strict about unreferenced redlinks in lists at the moment, but I like redlinks in lists like this, if only as pointers to the articles needed next. I don't know anything much about periodicals outside the UK, but agree with you it would be nice if wikipedia had more on them. Dsp13 (talk) 20:30, 27 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm new to 19th C periodicals. I have one source John Sutherland (author) The Longman Companion to Victorian Fiction, which I thought was mostly complete, but now I see it is very limited, there's a lot more. 50,000? 100,000? Still, I think an article of the most important would be useful. The problem then becomes how to define "important" in a way that works at Wikipedia, for example what was done at List of important operas. Sutherland's list is a start, but would need more expert lists to draw from, which may not exist. Or possibly based on metrics such as length of publication, notable contributors, notable founders, notable significance in some way; I could probably cobble something together that way, but not being an expert myself, I don't know how good it would be. Well, I'll keep thinking about how to approach it, if you have any ideas as well, thanks. Green Cardamom (talk) 17:34, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * thanks for reminding me of John Sutherland's companion - I see there was a 2nd ed. published in 2009! I've never had a copy, though my impression of the first ed. was that it was extremely good indeed. I'll try to get my hands on one. Your estimates of the total numbers are in the right ball-park: there's a very long tail of minor publications. I don't think an automated metric is particularly possible to gauge notability, but size of circulation would seem to be relevant. Secondary scholarship has gradually shifted attention from the high-status, expensive, relatively-small-circulation publications (e.g. the quarterlies) to cheaper, mass-circulation publications. Academia's also recently paid much more attention to women as journalists and readers, and to the printing technologies & literary conventions of images etc.Dsp13 (talk) 13:34, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for creating the stub
Thanks for creating Louise Clarke Pyrnelle. I've been trying to trace down the earilest orgin of the song Cotton-Eyed Joe. The best the "experts" could do was "Folklorist Dorothy Scarborough was one of the first to publish the traditional song in an academic work, noting that it predated the American Civil War. In her 1925 collection of African-American song." Louise Clarke Pyrnelle's book, Diddie, Dumps & Tot; or plantation child-life, published this song in 1882, and, importantly, noted she heard it as a child. Your stub provided me with Pyrnelle's 1850 birth, which, along with Pyrnelle's book, provided actual evidence that the song predated the 1861–1865 American Civil War. That now makes Wikipedia more authoritive than the prior experts on this point. Nice team work! -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This source says "we can trace it back to an unknown plantation before the Civil War." If you can and have the interest/time, would you mind developing Pyrnelle's childhood in the Louise Clarke Pyrnelle article. If we know which plantation Pyrnelle was on, Wikipedia can at least indicate a known plantation, again making it better than the experts. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:40, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I'm generally rather ignorant about Alabama - so you might be better at it than me! There's useful stuff in the link in the reference on her page, and the Encyclopedia of Alabama external link I just added to her page. Pleased the stub - which I only put up as she was a Project Gutenberg author - was useful to you though. Do get back if you have any queries.Dsp13 (talk) 13:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Women's History
WikiProject Women's History needs members' input on implementing auto-assessment. You'll find the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women's History. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 10:47, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

BLP, ethnicity, gender
Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

Wikilawyers have been trying to drive through a wording loophole in BLP, saying ethnicity and gender of EGRS doesn't apply to living persons, simply because the two words aren't in the policy. (Apparently, they think it should only apply to dead people.) I remember you as having been very involved in years past.

They also are trying to remove the notability and relevance criteria for EGRS, but that's another fight for another day, I'm simply too busy to watch two fronts at the same time. --William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thanks for your recent work on entries related to women's history. I'm glad you're participating in WikiProject Women's History. If you have any questions, concerns, or bright ideas about the project, please don't hesitate to contact me on my talk page. Since you've been active on Wikipedia for a long time, I'd be particularly interested in hearing your thoughts about how we might recruit more editors and get people excited about contributing.---Shane Landrum (cliotropic &#124; talk &#124; contribs) 00:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the copy edit
Thank you for copyediting Health in Ghana, I am currently working on it with one of the students in a Public Policy Intiative Course. I am going to nominate it for DYK, but would really appreciate some more input/clean up before it goes on the main page. I may do a little more research tomorrow and in order to get some more into the article, but additional input is always appreciated, Sadads (talk) 00:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Rich pickings
Thanks for picking up Venn refs for the Barts etc I haven't got back to yet. There is a bit of a puzzle with this guy Edwin Rich and I wonder if you can help. Regards Motmit (talk) 21:01, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't add anything there, I'm afraid.Dsp13 (talk) 09:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

William John Hardy
So far just a draft - you might be interested because he was the father of William Le Hardy. Three generations of archivists: Sir William Hardy isn't there yet, but gets a mention in Thomas Duffus Hardy (uncle of WJ). The DNB has Sir William and TD, articles written by WJ. William Henry Page was the brother-in-law and the Page of Messrs. Page and Hardy. The business they ran is explained here. Quite a bit more to fit together. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:24, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks - interesting! I have absolutely no recollection of my motivation for adding WLH, but it's nice seeing these things come together. Dsp13 (talk) 09:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Scrutiny for historian Gough article
Am I right in thinking you've found my new article draft on Canadian historian Barry M. Gough and are scrutinizing it? If so, comments and advice are most welcome. I won't just move it to article space without collaboration, though some seem to be doing that. Intriguing process, this kind of research and editing. JaneFaber (talk) 06:58, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you may have the wrong person - was it Tkotc you were after? Having said that, I'm happy to have a look at your BG draft - I'll look at it this evening and let you know anything which occurs! (yes, it is intruiging, isn't it!) Dsp13 (talk) 10:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Bated breath. I'll watch this page. JaneFaber (talk) 17:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've popped some suggestions for you at BG's talk page. Do ask there or here if they're not clear! Dsp13 (talk) 00:47, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Splendid, thank you. Sensible suggestions, clearly explained and much appreciated. I'll burrow into The Missing Manual on some technical bits to get them right. Probably best to continue with messages here on your talk page so you'll have one sequential record. I promise brevity. JaneFaber (talk) 04:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * a random tip: while it's considered good practice to sign talk page contributions (using the 4 tildes or whatever) as you do, you don't need to put any tildes in your edit summaries. I don't think they do anything there.Dsp13 (talk) 13:45, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Tilde etiquette in a new culture: good to know. The changes you suggested are done. I might have overdone the "online here" substitutions among the references, but it's better. I tuned up various small things (professional penchant) and think those piped links are great. What might still need doing? When convenient, could you look through? JaneFaber (talk) 08:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * A stray bracket near the start. I'd probably reorder the sections, to put affiliations before published works. There might be a bit of duplication between the teaching etc. and the affiliations stuff. But I think it's ready for you to release into the wild, really - and let it evolve there. Do you have the subject of your next wonderful page already in mind? ;) Dsp13 (talk) 17:16, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
 * On printouts, the teaching and affiliations information did seem to repeat, esp. "Canadian Studies" phrase. Separate organizations, though. I've rearranged sentences and sections. Fattened up one note, re North American Studies program. So - after an all clear, I'd move this to its new title (Barry M. Gough) and go do tidy-work on existing articles while researching a new treat. ;) Do you foresee any glitches with "redirects" and "double redirects"? JaneFaber (talk) 08:05, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Go for it! I don't forsee any glitches - after you've added the page, I'd also add Barry Gough and Barry Morton Gough as redirect pages to it, and you can make sure your page has links to it from other pages which mention BG. (But if you don't feel like bothering with that, then just leave it to others.) Dsp13 (talk) 21:32, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Done! Sort of. I overlooked the blue hypertext tint and thus missed my chance to add the two redirect pages you suggested. Will study style guide (TMM) before experimenting. Will also chase other pages mentioning BG to create links back to article. With the move to mainspace, I started fretting about the article's talk page being public, but what's there now does read as a good record of the Wiki process: the help asked for was fully provided. Thanks so much, Dsp13 and colleagues. JaneFaber (talk) 06:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the contribution. I have put in about 20 more links to the article: you can see them from "what links here" in the toolbox. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Henry Ashworth (nonconformist)
A case where the ODNB thinks the DNB was really quite misleading. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:57, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

William Weston
Hi, you have the following line on your user page: I found this when I was checking Special:WhatLinksHere/Hunt Edmunds. I suspect that there is no connection at all between your Jesuit and my brewery. I don't have a copy of ODNB, but my mother has, and she believes that Edmunds and Hunt were separate aliases, i.e. William Edmunds and William Hunt were both aliases used by William Weston. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * William Weston (Jesuit) / Hunt Edmunds Weston [ alias Edmunds, Hunt], William (1549/50-1615), Jesuit ODNB

Members' input needed at WikiProject Women's History
Hello. I'm writing to you as your name is listed on the members page for WikiProject Women's History. In recent discussions at the project, most notably here, several members have indicated that the scope of the project may need to be more clearly defined and communicated. I have set up a workshop page for this, but it obviously needs as wide a participation as possible to achieve genuine consensus and to allow the project to move forward. You'll find the workshop here.

If you no longer consider yourself an active member of the project, it would help if you could indicate this on the members' page. This will allow us to better gauge how much people-power we actually have. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Women's History Project – Final call for comments on the Scope draft
Our workshop on revising and clarifying the scope of our project has produced a draft outlining our project's scope and criteria for article inclusion. Please join us at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women's History/Scope workshop to discuss this document. There's a separate section beneath it for final comments, which will remain open through Tuesday, June 14th. As Cynwolfe says "with good participation, we should be able to revise our project page soon, clearing up the issues we've been dealing with and preparing us to go on to the fun stuff." Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 12:42, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

A live one
William Frend (social reformer), as far as DNB-generated upgrades go. The old text is Cambridge-centric, but the ODNB seems to have plenty to add. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of George and Helen Adie for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article George and Helen Adie is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/George and Helen Adie until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. TerriersFan (talk) 21:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Chinyere Nwakanma for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Chinyere Nwakanma is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Chinyere Nwakanma until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Amsaim (talk) 17:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Merge
Good call. Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Bishops of Bedford
Totally agree Bashereyre (talk) 18:27, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

John Weale
Fascinating Victoriana, particularly in his "Rudimentary Series". Must be a Ph.D. in there, working out his network of contacts. William Henry Leeds crops up again. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:03, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * indeed! I've occasionally been expanding bibliographic stuff for Cedar Paul, who - together with her husband, the son of Kegan Paul - translated a staggering volume of material into English. Dsp13 (talk) 09:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Next meetup 8 October
Page for the next Cambridge meetup at Meetup/Cambridge/12. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

GLAM/TNA
Thanks for spreading the word. I was fully intending to do it myself but I've got bogged down with wrangling templates on Commons and not very exciting licensing issues. I hope these will be out of the way soon so I can get back to the fun stuff. --Mr impossible (talk) 14:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Quaker monogenism
This is something that came up via a GLAM contact at the British Museum 10 days ago. I was told that Henry Christy was motivated to get into ethnology by his opposition to polygenism. All very plausible, but other Quakers are somewhat more obviously linked to that discussion: Edward Burnett Tylor who was a friend of Christy, James Cowles Prichard in particular, Thomas Hodgkin. If there is some literature you know about mid-Victorian Quaker thought deriving from abolitionism that brings in Christy himself, it would be pretty helpful. Of course this area is of interest in its own right, too. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We're doing building on my house, and my books are almost all in boxes at the moment. The usual historiography (Quaker-abolitionist monogenists in the Aborigines Protection Society and its more scientific offshoot the Ethnological Society of London versus the emergence of polygenists in the Anthropological Society of London) was set decades ago by George W. Stocking, Jr. I think his 1987 Victorian Anthropology is the relevant book, for which this 1971 paper, briefly mentioning Christy, is a forerunner. As far as I know the general picture here is still accepted. Race has been much discussed, of course, since then - but I don't know offhand of any specific stuff about Christy. Dsp13 (talk) 10:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a really good start. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:27, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Stella Browne
I had to leave you a personal note thanking you for starting this article. What an interesting figure! I spent a few minutes (before I got distracted by something else) looking for an image, and found for instance that she reviewed a book by Havelock Ellis. She has a wonderfully smart mouth. Since books of that period often have the author's portrait as a frontispiece, I wonder whether any of hers do: it would be out of copyright. I was surprised that Google Books lacked so much as a preview of any of them; they all showed up as "no preview". Haven't checked the Internet Archive yet, though. Again, thanks for all your work gathering these missing biographies. Cynwolfe (talk)
 * thanks ever so much for taking the trouble to leave such a lovely note! And thank you too for your fairly indefatigable women's history project work. I'm not much good at knowing where to look for pictures, I'm afraid - but good luck! I was led to Stella Browne from the remarkably active translator Cedar Paul. Thanks again, Dsp13 (talk) 00:19, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

William Rand (physician)
Hi, thanks for the link. I only happened on him because of the Peiresc biography (the usual long story); but he does seem interesting. A paper I can't access online calls him a "Radical Independent" which I quite believe. I'm bothered that I can't link him clearly to John Streater the printer; they had a lot in common, like republicanism, and Cromwell did lock up a printer called William Rand at the same time as Streater and numerous other annoyances. But I can't assume that's the same person. The connection via Nicholas Culpeper seems promising, but Benjamin Woolley, The Herbalist, a good book on Culpeper, doesn't have Rand in the index - quite frustrating. We must chat some time. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * don't know anything about your lot I'm afraid - I see Streater published Rand's translation of Gassendi's Life of Peiresc. I'm busy learning about the 1920s and 1930s at the moment - & after repeatedly seeing your To-day and To-morrow redlinks, I've decided it's time the series had its own page! A pity C. K. Ogden's biographer has apparently been distracted by Marshall McLuhan. Chat would be good - a Hills Road coffee sometime? Dsp13 (talk) 21:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Ogden is certainly interesting in the "between the world wars" way. He perhaps didn't know everybody; but he knew many people, and some of those would otherwise have slid off the map. The Today and Tomorrow crowd are very disparate, as I discovered when I tried researching them - thanks for putting something in mainspace about it. I've recently modified my so-called schedule, and am open to invitations mid-morning and in the afternoon. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

PS From a women's history point of view, Dorothy Buxton (redlink in the Ogden article) needs an article. Gilbert Murray is now somewhat unsung as a "between the wars" character, because of the League of Nations approach he favoured; but significant, and someone was complaining to me about the article recently. There was a recent OUP volume of essays on Murray, not ideal, but I could lend you that if the topic appeals. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:38, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

People without categorised birth years
Hi there - I ended up somehow on your page of people without categorised birth years User:Dsp13/Living people needing categorization by year of birth/1. I fixed up a couple of them - is there a remote chance you could verify that I did this right (mainly the edits to your page) and, if so, I'll do some more? :) Pugwash (talk) 04:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What you've done looks great - I generated those pages years ago, so they're rather out of date now - many people have had categories supplied already. So I'd wondered about deleting the pages, but if they're useful to you to point to stuff which needs doing, then go for it! Dsp13 (talk) 09:48, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Post-meetup
What I talked about with Magnus concerning the Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie has happened: Category:Missing encyclopedic articles (Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie) has the raw listings. I'll add some header template when I'm clearer about what to say. The clever bit is the bolded hints coming from following links round from German Wikisource to German Wikipedia and then interwiki to here. There's a thread at User talk:Delirium. Charles Matthews (talk) 22:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow! I've added a comment at the project/ADB talk page. Dsp13 (talk) 22:49, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Another thing (no shortage of projects, but still ...): we talked a bit about the "Republic of Letters". Pierre Bayle is not a great article. I started to work on Jean Leclerc (theologian) but it was one of the occasions when the subject started seeming too large and I didn't have the impact I wanted to. What I meant to say was this: Bayle's Dictionary seems, when I find it coming up online on Google Books in later editions, to be an extraordinary "database" with gossip in footnotes, probably unreliable BLP of the time in much of it. A veritable Wikipedia of its day. Really very hard to see what is going on there. Jonathan Israel has his take, no doubt, but it would be helpful to have more perspective on it. (For example, a list of articles ... do modern scholars come at things in this direction, so natural for us?) Charles Matthews (talk) 13:14, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Bayle's dictionary is wonderful. I skim-read the mid-C18th English translation once, looking for stories about philosophers kicking the bucket. His declared aim as I remember it was to produce a reference source composed entirely of correctives to mistakes which had appeared in print. Most of the really clever barbs were hidden away in footnotes (as Gibbon would do) or in anodyne-sounding articles, so a list of articles unfortunately gives little away & is no substitute for dipping in. (I think Voltaire's much less systematic Philosophical Dictionary must have built on Bayle's idea of turning a dictionary into a POV-pushing essayistic weapon.) It would be a nightmare to OCR and proof! I see the French version's been digitised at the ARTFL Project. No idea how Jonathan Israel links PB up to the Dutch Spinozists etc. but the rapidity with which it was translated into English shows there was appreciation in this country also from skeptical/deist sorts. Which is an inconclusive ramble, really. Dsp13 (talk) 13:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Notability of people included in the Biographical Dictionary of Women in Science?
You may be interested in this: --Mais oui! (talk) 12:37, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Talk:Royal_Society

William John Hardy
I mentioned this family back in the day (your archive #4 now), and got to writing up my draft today because William Hardy (archivist) came up in some GLAM work. For WJ, the Shepherd ref clarified for me the significance (i.e. reorganising local record offices as precondition for the Victoria County Histories). I started English county histories because needed and to hang material from the DNB somewhere sensible; but now I can see that the historiography can be carried into the post-DNB world. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:18, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

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Ethnological Society of London
I have started Category:Fellows of the Ethnological Society of London to try to get some traction on this BM GLAM business. The fellows are a miscellaneous bunch, with physicians and ministers, as I'm finding. We don't have an article on Richard King (traveller) who founded it, but he's DNB. Darwin was an honorary fellow in 1861. I imagine there's quite a lot to say, but finding the key people would be good. The Presidents are probably easy to find (John Crawfurd, John Lubbock, 1st Baron Avebury, James Cowles Prichard are some). Charles Matthews (talk) 15:49, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I see JSTOR provides their early Transactions for free, and in particular this list of fellows in Vol. 6 (1868) might help. The previous page, and the front matter of every volume of the Transactions, has the President, Council and suchlike dignitaries. Dsp13 (talk) 16:13, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

That's a great list: I've posted it at User:Charles Matthews/Ethnological Society. Feel free to dab and fix the links, and add comments. Generally, I'm starting to reconstruct the article on the Society on a factual basis. There is also a lot to do with polygenism all over the site, given the editing the topic has had in the past. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh dear, all going rampant now. One tack is to expand Thomas Hodgkin, who is on all the strands leading to the ES. That's OK, but the other part is phrenology. Category:Phrenologists just says "practitioners of phrenology" which is pretty much meaningless. There were writers on phrenology, phrenological educators (e.g. in Edinburgh), and the craniologists who matter to the ES. So how should that category be applied? E.g. Robert Dunn (surgeon), Joseph Barnard Davis, to name but two. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't know anything about Hodgkin. Re the phrenologists category, I'd feel inclined to generously whack them all in the general category first, and only worry about subcategorising once it's clear how many there are. Dsp13 (talk) 14:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I've just noticed the existence of David N. Livingstone, Adam's ancestors: race, religion, and the politics of human origins, 2008. Haven't read it, but he's a historian of geography who knows his onions. Dsp13 (talk) 20:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And Terry Jay Ellingson, The Myth of the Noble Savage looks as though it has a deal of blow-by-blow institutional detail about the Ethnological Society. Dsp13 (talk) 11:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, still wrestling with the Stocking book in fact, having renewed my UL card specially. Sidetracked right now by the Niger expedition of 1841, but that's interesting too, as well as explaining the "moment" of the ESL. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:53, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

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A New Year for the DNB, and launch of "volume of the month"
See WT:WP DNB for a collaboration that I'm in the course of setting up. Everyone who signed up to the WikiProject for the Dictionary of National Biography is being notified, while there is still time to alter the way of working if need be. PS if you have lists of ODNB keys, this would be a handy time to use them. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

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Radicals and Chartism
I'm getting on all right with Henry George Ward (cosying up to Harriet Grote—considering the extended family background—about whom we were chatting); and have just done William Dougal Christie who is a different kind of Radical (it seems). It gets puzzling; when I have added something about the Weekly Chronicle which was Ward's paper, perhaps it will be clearer. But the secret ballot: Christie is unwilling, it seems, to make the connection between the Chartist agitation and the fact that it was put off for another 30 years? Ward, for example, opposed the Ten Hours Bill, something not yet in the article. Is there some sort of crux here about the Radicals and the choice of ways to innovate? Anyway my grasp of the period is clearly a bit shaky. Charles Matthews (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of which, working on Surrey Institution had an unexpected Radical/Chartist connection, in the aftermath. James Elishama Smith turned up - one of your articles. In the DNB he's James Elimalet Smith, in fact. The ODNB has James Morrison (publisher) who was a trade unionist; and Elizabeth Sharples Carlile. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


 * thanks, Charles: the house is largely in pre-plastered chaos at the moment, but I'll take a look when that's over. Dsp13 (talk) 16:06, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Oops, that section is someone's Ph.D. There are two whole book chapters on the Rotunda 1830-2 ; and a cryptic picture on p. 217 there (the building is supposedly behind 3 Blackfriars Road, so is it through the gap on the right of the watercolour? Charles Matthews (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


 * ? Dsp13 (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

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Reginald Berkeley
See Reginald Berkeley (which you have contributed to) for my proposal to merge the two articles as I am certain that Reginald Berkeley (politician) and Reginald Berkeley (writer) are the same person, as confirmed by the obituary of Captain Reginald Berleley in The Times of 1 April 1935 page 9, which refers to his plays and also to his career as an MP (presumably not an April Fools Day hoax!). Could you reply on the article talk page please, as I have asked several people for comments. Hugo999 (talk) 12:32, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * thanks - good work! have replied. Dsp13 (talk) 14:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Cambridge meetup
The next is on 4 February: Meetup/Cambridge/14. I have naturally applied for a geonotice ... Charles Matthews (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Mirror of Literature
John Limbird is an old one of yours; I have just created Thomas Byerley (journalist), Byerley being namechecked in the title of the Book History article you cited there. Something doesn't quite join up: Byerley used the pseudonym Reuben Percy, the ODNB on Byerley doesn't mention Limbird, and at least by reference to Google Books, the "Reuben Percy" name continued after Byerley died in 1826. Not entirely surprising, but I thought perhaps the Topham paper might reveal more. BTW the Mirror of Literature is now referenced in dozens of places here. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * interesting. When off-wiki commitments calm down, I'll take a look! Dsp13 (talk) 14:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Adrian Desmond
Know much? He's your period, and I've just put in over 100 links to the page. But it still depends on publishers' blurb for interesting details, which isn't great. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:56, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know much, unfortunately - beyond being an admirer of his prose. Jim Moore lives locally - if I bump into him I'll ask if there's anywhere to look for details. Dsp13 (talk) 21:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

WP Women's History in the Signpost
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject Women's History for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 01:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Female architects
Hello Dsp13. Thanks for taking an interest in our work on female architects and for including Sophy Gray on the list. I see you have also added several other names with references. With the extensive experience you have in writing biographies, I'm sure you are in an excellent position to reduce the number of red links by contributing short biographies, even if they are just stubs. As you may know, we are trying to cover as many female architects as possible during Women's History Month but unfortunately all too few contributors have been involved. I must have contributed about 50 or so myself - so it would be great to get some support, especially from a female Wikipedian. Maybe you could even help out with some of the other red linked Americans on the list? - Ipigott (talk) 22:19, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the encouragement - & well done for all your excellent work - inspiring! I'll definitely try to have a go at a few of the redlinks on the page. (Incidentally, I'm not female!) best, Dsp13 (talk) 22:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Great news. I look forward to your contributions. Sorry about the mistaken gender. There unfortunately seem to be all too few women interested in contributing to the biographies on architecture. If you happen to be in touch with any, try to encourage them. - Ipigott (talk) 08:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've just seen all the other additions you have made to the list. Very useful indeed. - Ipigott (talk) 11:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Godechot
Sorry for the late reply, This is the link from Google Books: http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=B6gWTvfROngC&pg=PA265&dq=augusto+anfossi+godechot&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lhdkT-cgg5WzBvzt2bYF&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=anfossi&f=false  The title reads: Les révolutions de 1848 By Jacques Léon Godechot / first published 1887. But its a mistake, its a text from Charles Edmund Maurice / The revolutionary movement of 1848-9 in Italy, Austria-Hungary, and Germany ‎(1887) wrongly assigned to Godechot. I will correct it. Daufer (talk) 05:03, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

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Joseph Parkes
One of your early ones, and I've just bulked it up with DNB (I'll confess that I was interested in Josiah Parkes because I've stumbled across Telford Medal as a suitable case for treatment). Anyway, a few points. The BPU is a theme in the ODNB, and so more than probably worth an article. Do you know which Sir William Napier is meant? These radical biographies seem quite tricky to sort out (the ODNB has considerably more, but doesn't read easily, at least to me).

And a general one: I keep coming across the old grammar schools (two in the DNB on Parkes). It would be good to have lists of historic ones (I believe around 250 in say 1600, rising to twice that around 1800). Manageable at that scale. The existing lists here are oriented to the 20th century. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:47, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've dabbed the Napier: it's the historian of the Peninsular War, William Napier (historian). I agree re grammar schools: nice idea. Dsp13 (talk) 09:06, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of List of writers in Who's Who in Contemporary Women's Writing for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of writers in Who's Who in Contemporary Women's Writing is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/List of writers in Who's Who in Contemporary Women's Writing until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

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A well earned barnstar!

 * thanks very much! I believe that's the first time I've received one of these barnstar-things. Very gratifying to me, and kind of you to take the trouble :) Dsp13 (talk) 13:06, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Pierre Turquet
Nice work on the expansion of this article!  Lugnuts  (talk) 07:08, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ta - it amused me to find our fencer was the psychiatrist I'd initially encountered in Elisabeth Roudinesco's Jacques Lacan & Co. Dsp13 (talk) 08:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of François Pillon


The article François Pillon has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Biographical article without reliable sources. Fails WP:RS

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Inland mamba  (talk to me) 10:55, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It had a reliable source, which is now cited inline. Dsp13 (talk) 11:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Wanting your opinion on WorldCat integration
Hello, I'm the new Wikipedian in Residence for OCLC. I see that you've been a big supporter in the past. We are ready to take Wikipedia integration very seriously and start acting in an official capacity, build tools and dedicate resources. I wanted to get your opinion on what you think the best direction for the collaboration is. Perhaps we could keep a single thread going on User:Arch dude. Thanks for your input Maximiliankleinoclc (talk) 23:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you mean to start the thread on Arch dude's user page rather than his talk page? I've replied there anyway. Again, well done for getting the OCLC post - how long are you there for? Dsp13 (talk) 08:52, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * also, presumably there's a typo in your arch dude thread, which begins "integrating WorldCat into OCLC" ;) Dsp13 (talk) 20:25, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow, now my faith is even stronger
Thanks for your message, honestly didn`t think anyone would notice. Don`t care what anyone says, this project and this community are awesome. Thanks. Zidane tribal (talk) 21:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Authority Control Integration
Hi, I've been researching the intersection of Wikipedia and Authority Control, and have just recently made a Village Pump Proposal to create a bot to expand the usage of a template. I've identified you as someone in the sphere of interest to this project and would appreciate your input at the Village Pump. Thanks, Maximiliankleinoclc (talk) 18:34, 18 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for your comments on the proposal. We've refined it and worked out some more details after the discussion, and there is now a community Request for Comment to approve it being implemented. Any feedback gratefully received! Andrew Gray (talk) 09:45, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Grammar schools
I have half the sort of list I want, from vol. 1 of A Concise Description of the Endowed Grammar Schools in England by Nicholas Carlisle, which is on Google Books, and easy to find there. Vol. 2 is there also, but for opaque reasons seems harder to locate. User:Charles Matthews/Carlisle indicates the preliminary treatment I'm thinking of giving the list, when I've copied vol. 2 into it. The schools are obviously a mixed bunch, when you get into the details. The Carlisle book seems to be both important for subsequent legislation, and somewhat disreputable. Have you come across it? Charles Matthews (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about the Carlisle book. My general impression is that the criteria for being considered a grammar school were for a long time extremely elastic, so that it may be impossible to have an absolutely canonical list. Dsp13 (talk) 20:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh, quite, the criterion for inclusion in Carlisle might be property left under Elizabeth I which wasn't worth much then. Including everything in Carlisle meets WP:LSC though, and some are definitely not going to be notable. In fact he complains that some repeatedly ignored his questionnaire, so presumably the money had been diverted to other uses, or the rats had got at it, or both. But it's a large work with plenty of detail. (Disreputable because it makes too much of monastic antecedents, apparently).

We're thinking of having some Cambridge coffee mornings, as lightweight substitutes for meetups that are now hard to shoehorn into the calendar. I'll let you know. Also I'm doing a project for WMUK with online teaching modules. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * There will be a training-oriented gathering at CB2 this Saturday morning from 10 am to 1 pm at least. Plenty going on now. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:31, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * thanks for letting me know! Dsp13 (talk) 15:39, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

BTW Mac and Mc together is really just a DNB side-issue (see s:WS:WT DNB). But it is an amusingly arcane topic, with roots I think in the later Victorian attitude to   "system" (not to speak of Scots then running much of an empire on which the sun never sets). There is a featured article in there somewhere for someone willing to do a huge amount of research; there are library science/compsci topics lurking just beneath the surface; and a classic discussion on Talk:Mac and Mc together. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

David Macey
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Incorrect addition of Category:1833 births toa non biographical article
Hi, I just noticed an incorrect categorisation of the article by one of your tidy up edits back in May - see. the article is about one of George Sand's novels and the 1833 is the year of publication. reporting in case this error comes from one of your scripts. Regards --Quiet Editor (talk) 15:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * thanks! no, the stupidity wasn't scripted :) Dsp13 (talk) 15:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I know that feeling! I've added category Category:1833 novels which was, I assume, your intended category. All done, I think. --Quiet Editor (talk) 18:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Horace Dobell
AlfD1234 - a complete new boy.

I've written to you because you initiated a page on Horace Dobell (middle name Benge). In it you have trusted his obituary in the BMJ as accurate but it is not quite. I don't know enough yet to edit it. His dob is usually given as 1 Jan 1832. The only record I can find is of his baptism on that date (Source Citation: Place: Newgate St., London, Eng; Collection: Dr. William's Library; Nonconformist Registers; Date Range: 1815 - 1832; Film Number: 815924.) Chances are he was also born in Gloucestershire, not London. Can you advise me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlfD1234 (talk • contribs)


 * Thank you for getting in touch! What sources make you say his dob is 'usually' given as 1 Jan 1832? You may well be right - though I can't find anything on Google Books mentioning his dob as 1832 as opposed to 1828, and library cataloguessuggest his birth year was 1828. It seems possible that he was baptised at the age of four. Dsp13 (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Whoops! I'm usually more accurate than that. I typed 1832 when I should have typed 1828. Evidence: entry for his baptism gives 1 Jan 1832. This is from Place: Newgate St., London, Eng; Collection: Dr. William's Library; Nonconformist Registers; Date Range: 1815 - 1832; Film Number  815924. Unlikely (though not impossible) he was born the same day. The article shows him as born in London. His father (John Dobell) was born in Cranbrook in Kent and moved to Cheltenham where he lived all his life at least from 1841 onward (census and BMD evidence exists). His wine and spirit business was continuous there through his life. My comment about 1 Jan 1832 usually being given refers at least to the BMJ obituary and to Wikipedia. It also then stretches to many "genealogists" who have used these or used copies of them. The Dr William's Library clearly has an important place pre-1838 when the normal place of registration of vital data was the local (C of E) church and when non-conformists, having nothing to do with the C of E, sometimes made their own arrangements. Often the baptism would take place well after the birth e.g. batches from the same family "done" at the same time, sometimes involving substantial travel to London. So the baptism date can be misleading. (A propos nothing, my own would be in error by about 7 years!). My purpose was (a) to see if I am right about Horace Dobell; (b) to seek accuracy. I've no experience of the Wikipedia system and I thought it best to contact someone who knows the system and knows about Dobell. His is an interesting family including his author brother Sydney Dobell, an artist brother Clarence and a wife who published literally thousands of poems (including some quite good stuff, they say).

AlfD1234 (talk) 13:31, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * OK - though I'm still confused when time you type '1832' as to whether you really mean 1832 or 1828. I suggest you leave these comments on the Talk:Horace Dobell where they may find someone else who knows more than me. I didn't actually know anything about him myself, but was prompted to put up the page to help this effort to do with photographs at The National Archive. Do continue to ask if you need help with anything wiki-related, though. Best, Dsp13 (talk) 14:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * 1832 was never intended. 1828 was, though I do believe it's wrong!

However: thanks for your encouragement and time and advice. I'm now aiming to enter the mainstream rather than using you via what I guess was the backdoor. Thanks!AlfD1234 (talk) 21:40, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Hisham Ghassib


The article Hisham Ghassib has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, all newly created biographies of living persons must have at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the prod blp tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can when you are ready to add one. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 16:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * couple of refs added now. Dsp13 (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC)