User talk:Martinevans123/Archive 17

Happy Christmas and a Peaceful New Year to all
 Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda. Happy Christmas and Best wishes for a peaceful 2024. "Csordapásztorok" Ring-a-ling-a-ling-a-ding-dong-ding!


 * "In the Stillness" by Sally Beamish. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

2023 - missiles not fireworks
Kyiv hit by Russian missiles on New Year's Eve. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:10, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * 12 months on... "Russia targets Ukraine ‘military’ sites in retaliation for Belgorod attack": "...at least six missiles hit Kharkiv, Ukraine’s National Police said on Sunday, injuring at least 22 people and hitting 12 apartment buildings, 13 residential houses and a kindergarten. ... Earlier, Ukrainian officials said that among those injured in Kharkiv were two boys aged 14 and 16 and a security adviser for a team of German journalists." Martinevans123 (talk) 10:34, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Martinevans123!


Happy New Year! Martinevans123, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 00:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 00:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much, Moops. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)


 * ... and also from me --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:18, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * today, I point at two singers I whose performance I enjoyed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. You must be one of them pointy editors! RIP Anita. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC) (William "Smitty" Smith – organ)
 * ...and just for good measure Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 6 January 2023 (UTC) (Stephen Mitchell – synthesizers)
 * you understood, see? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw Domen Križaj, thanks. Gosh, DYK is such hard work. Here he is with The Trumpet Shall Sound from you know what. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2023 (UTC) (Jernej Gantar - trumpet)
 * today, less pointy: a composition from a remarkable 2022 concert, the sad record of four articles about people who recently died on the Main page at the same time, and singing for Epiphany - I'm taking a break from DYK, see my talk, - these are the last ones for a while, and then I'll write my unwritten stories - a good title for that wanted. Just look for the difference between suggestion and were the broad audience got us for Galina Pisarenko (see talk there), - with the interlude of rejecting her downright, - which was probably the last straw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:45, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Today's featured article is Osbert Parsley, not by me but Amitchell125 where, including the beginning of my songs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links, Gerda. No relation to this Parsley I'm guessing (voiced by Gordon Rollings, I think). Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * no ;) - I'm on vacation, - click on songs! I tell my own stories now, instead of relying on DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Today's topic Elisabeth Waterhouse. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:40, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Today's: Elena Manistina, or: why Tchaikovsky's The Enchantress isn't on the Main page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:34, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * one more day of pics but the last three will take more time - back home --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * 2 more done --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:52, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * and now the rest - Melitta Muszely died, RIP - the other story is 10 years old OTD ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:08, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Always precious
Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always, in your own sweet way. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ... great memories of the Jacques Loussier Trio and the Dave Brubeck Quartet in one hall ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's not forget Dave Greenfield (1949–2020)... Martinevans123 (talk) 18:35, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * And could I possibly prevail on you, yet again, to archive June: from "Question" to "June 2022"? Many thanks for your help. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
 * sure --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:06, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky Air Flight 251 (2021)
Hi Moneytrees Thank you for your edits at Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky Air Flight 251 (2021). I think these passages, now removed, might provide useful details about the crash:
 * "The air traffic controller told the crew they were on a bearing of 340 degrees (north-northwesterly rather than the west-northwest 289 bearing instructed by the NDB procedure)."

and
 * "The terrain at the point of impact is about 260 m high, on a coastal cliff topped with trees (tree height 10 m)."

I'm not yet sure how these details might be re-worded. But I wanted to check whether or not you think they should be re-added. Another question is whether |url-status=live Av Herald is the best source, or if we should just use official investigation reports, if available. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:10, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Not Moneytrees, obviously, but thought I'd stick my beak in, which I'm hoping is not too intrusive. I've little idea of aviation terminology so won't edit the article directly, but if I to incorporate the above text, I'd try something like the following:


 * So, not sure if changes keep the details technically correct, but I think it's sufficiently different from the sources to not be a close paraphrase. Only a suggestion, which someone who knows about such things may add if they wish. Hope it helps, anyway. AukusRuckus (talk) 10:28, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, AukusRuckus. That looks good to me. But then I'm probably not the best judge. Using "crew performed final approach manoeuvres (base and final turns)" in place of "crew performed the base and final turns" also seems ok. The question about that source remains; perhaps an editor such as Ahunt might like to comment. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:50, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping. From a terminology point of view "final approach manoeuvres" is odd and vague wording and likely the result of uneven or non-standard translation in the original report. I would suggest the crew flew the base and final turns. - Ahunt (talk) 12:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Ahunt, for the rapid response. Feel free to add back whatever seems useful there, as I am unable to. I am assuming you are happy to use Av Herald as the source. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ - Ahunt (talk) 13:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding the source. Are any of those other details needed? I had thought they were useful. Thank you. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:44, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that wording was useful, . - Ahunt (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * That's great, Ahunt. Many thanks for your help. And thank you again AukusRuckus. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:25, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Politicz
Hello Ovinus, I hope the New Year finds you well. I was wondering if anything could be salvaged at Politicz. I think I assumed, 8 years ago. that blockquotes were ok. But my edit summary did express some doubts. No-one else, in the intervening 7 years, seemed to have a problem with them. I guess the last bit could be rewritten e.g.:
 * Dean McFarlane at AllMusic, compares "the eccentric quality" of Coyne's recordings with those of Robert Wyatt and Van Morrison, and describes Politicz as "a post-punk album with a humorous political agenda."

But what of Coyne's own sleeve notes? I am now looking at WP:COPYPASTE, which says this:
 * "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Use of copyrighted text must be in compliance with Non-free content criteria policy. This means that the quotation must not be replaceable with free text (including one that the editor writes), must be minimal, must have contextual significance and must have previously been published."

and WP:NFCC, which says this:
 * "3. '''Minimal usage:
 * a. Minimal number of items. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information.
 * b. Minimal extent of use. An entire work is not used if a portion will suffice. Low-resolution, rather than high-resolution/fidelity/bit rate is used (especially where the original could be used for deliberate copyright infringement).
 * "8. Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."
 * "8. Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."

At the time I had thought of re-writing his notes, so that they were indeed replaceable with free text. But then I thought that any paraphrase or re-write would not be adequate. He is the actual artist, after all. So the original material might well significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. I had also thought of using just perhaps one or two examples; but then thought that my editorial decision, of which to use and which to exclude, would constitute WP:OR.

Are these the appropriate policies? Perhaps they get trumped by WP:UNDUE? I'd be very grateful if you could advise. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, our copyright policy trumps helpfulness to readers, and the length of the quotes in question is beyond what NFCC allows. Thankfully, helpfulness to readers and abiding by our copyright policy aren't incompatible. In this case, excerpting the most salient parts of the artist's words, interspersed with ellipses or transitional paraphrases, is probably the way to go. You're of course welcome to try that here. Regarding whether that is original research: If selecting what information to include and exclude from a passage were OR, most of Wikipedia would be in violation. I agree more caution is required with direct quotes, to avoid taking words out of context or -- in the case of controversial topics -- bowdlerizing them, but it's still usually possible to capture someone's voice in fewer words. Ovinus (talk) 19:28, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ovinus. I may try. When you say "the length of the quotes in question is beyond what NFCC allows", exactly what length is allowed? Is that always a finite length, or is it a proportion of the original? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:03, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Is that second part an acceptable summary of the AllMusic source? I now find that Buckley (2003) argues that the album "... indicated a loss of focus, partly induced by Coyne's alcoholism and his marriage break-up." So that might be usefully added. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hm, for now I would say take whichever is smaller of three sentences and 25% of the original text. But it's quite context dependent. There are cases where long quotes make sense and places where they don't. I would say quoting a reviewer's entire review is generally not encyclopedic, hence why I only chose a part of it. In any case, I would recommend you focus on paraphrasing and avoid quoting entirely until you feel confident paraphrasing. Ovinus (talk) 20:19, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Well I was trying above to paraphrase that McFarlane review, which is desperately short to begin with. Yes, I can accept that the length may be context dependent. I just want to be clear that "whichever is smaller of three sentences and 25% of the original text" is not policy, but your subjective opinion. And I'm not sure how one would accurately render Buckley's 14 words without a quote. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:28, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, I didn't see that you made a paraphrase up there. I think it's fine. And yes, that's my opinion, not policy. Ovinus (talk) 20:47, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Cool. Well if that's the yardstick you have used to add quotations, and you have not been challenged for copyvio by other editors, I'm very happy to follow suit. Just to be clear - are those above the most appropriate policies for this case, or should I also be following others? I fully realise that some editors might argue that the lack of secondary sources for this album suggests it is not notable. I'd obviously disagree! A secondary alternative (which I now remember I also considered at the time) was adding an image of the back cover of the album, with all the notes visible to be simply read. But that seemed less useful and also probably a copyvio, as only the front cover is usually permitted. Many thanks for your help. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * As Ovinus said, it's just his subjective yardstick and not written down in policy anywhere. I'm afraid you just won't find a yardstick that actually is written down in policy. There are essay discussions of the concept at WP:COPYQUOTE and WP:NPS, but nobody sets a number that divides OK from too-much. Even real-world legal concepts such as right to quote do not set explicit length criteria. (Insert joke about size doesn't matter, then insert joke about insert.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah yes. So do you agree with that subjective yardstick or not? If there's no clear policy, then a block for breaching coyvio, by an Administrator, in that case, would be a subjective judgement (just like so many other Admin actions)??
 * Copyright joke for all you Scientific Americans:
 * Argon walks into a bar.
 * The bartender looks up and says, "I'm sorry, we don't serve noble gases here."
 * Argon doesn't react, because reacting has been copyrighted by The Fine Bros since 2016.
 * "I thang u!" Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm personally ambivalent about that yardstick, which is another way of saying I don't know. But yeah, it's subjective. (Can one make a fart joke about noble gasses?) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It's considered frightfully rude to fart before Charles or Camilla. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's good to know. I promise to fart only after they do. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Pleased to hear you ain't one o' dem trumpy old Proud Boys.Martinevans123 (talk) 22:56, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Will try my best to steer away from Trypto's incendiary Republican toilet-humour and bring discussion back on track a little... Martinevans123 (talk) 11:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Ovinus, despite your recommendation for me to "avoid quoting entirely", I'm very reluctant to simply paraphrase all of Coyne's sleeve notes into prose, which I'm worried might look a little clumsy and dull. Perhaps a mixture might be possible, along these lines:
 * In the album's sleeve notes, Coyne himself gives a brief explanation of each of the songs. The first side has a song about the Pope and one about a rich misogynistic man who is intent on misleading his son. Coyne describes the song "Liberation" as "about male-chauvinism ... an observation of the way many women are still treated; with (I hope) an optimistic ending." Side two opens with a song about believing in heroes and is followed by one about the obsession with discipline and work in Japan. There are also songs that address the bitterness involved when a relationship breaks down and the brutality of "dance-halls, discos, gathering places." The album closes with "I've Got the Photographs", a song that "attempts to bring photographs to life when, after all, they're only bits of paper."

Is that to much direct quoting, or two much paraphrasing, or perhaps both? I think it complies with the "three sentences or 25%" dictum? Adding the sleeve notes and that Buckley source as refs would at least allow removal of the "single source" tag. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:57, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Any comments on that, Ovinus? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

St Peter and St Paul, Checkendon
Hello PMC. Hope you are well. I have been searching for that anonymous church booklet, but without success, I'm afraid. It's quite likely now gone to the local charity shop. I see that you also removed a short paragraph sourced to this site which, in the intervening 10 years, has now expired. The new site for the ministry team seems to be this one. I wonder if it might be worth adding that as an external link in the article? And/or possibly use it to restore some of the information that it provides. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Martin, sorry to hear that it's no longer available. Looks like the link to the ministry team is already in the external links section though, so if anyone wants to revamp the article on that basis, it is there. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 06:51, 11 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying. I must have missed that. Perhaps it should go in the infobox? If that first paragraph was indeed copyvio, might it be possible to suggest a version that was copyright compliant? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:44, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Welllllllll...I'm looking at both the current and the archived version of the old website (here) and it doesn't mention anything about the benefice or the archdeaconry/deanery of the church. It's possible that I'm missing it so if you see it on the site just point me to where. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that archive link, PMC, which I was unable to find. You're right, I can't find those terms either. So that must have been a mistake. All it has is Oxford Diocese. (But I see it also has a page on History, via Checkendon > Full history, which might be useful.) In England and Wales, "benefice" has come to be used interchangeably with "Ministry team" for a group of parishes. So perhaps that was all WP:OR. Do you maintain it was copyvio? I was just wondering how the information might be restored with other sources. This oneand this one might also help. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:56, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I never said that specific paragraph was confirmed copyvio. When I stubbed the article, I did it as a presumptive deletion of the entire article because the major source couldn't be located. I'm not in doubt of the related churches, but calling it a "benefice" without a source is OR in my opinion. I've added the related churches with a reference to the ministry's website. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 16:57, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, PMC. I think that's a real improvement. And many thanks for clarifying. So the problem is just that there's no source, not that it's presumed to be a copyvio? So, just in theory, would this list of bell inscriptions be considered copyvio:

Or what about this list of Rectors and Patrons:
 * 1. LESTER & PACK OF LONDON FECIT 1765.
 * 2. LESTER & PACK OF LONDON FECIT 1765.
 * 3. MUSIC’S MEDICINE TO THE MIND.
 * 4. OUR VOICES SHALL WITH JOYFUL SOUND MAKE HILLS 8: VALLEYS ECHO ROUND.
 * 5. IN WEDLOCK’S BANDS ALL YE THAT JOIN WITH HANDS YOUR HEARTS UNITE SO SHALL OUR TUNEFUL TONGUES COMBINE TO LAUD THE NUPTIAL RITE.
 * 6. MEARS & STAINBANKS 1879 FOUNDRY LONDON. G.T. ABBY, H. HOPE AND A. TOBBITT CHURCH- WARDENS. GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST.

I often see historical lists of clergy in churches, usually on a wooden board, often in the porchway. Are these also protected by copyright? Perhaps it depends on when they were produced? I assume that the inscriptions on gravestones are not copyright protected. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:33, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, in the instance of the Peter & Paul church, as I said - I stubbed the entire article presumptively. In other words, without making a determination that it actually was CV, but with the presumption that it was, based on the other confirmed CV issues with the other church articles sourced to church pamphlets. Since you pinged me looking to restore it, I checked and confirmed that it was not CV, but that it was not quite properly sourced..
 * A simple factual list of things generally cannot be copyrighted, assuming there is no subjectivity or creativity to the list. A list of people who held an office, along with their years of service, would generally fall under that, as it's an objective list that can't be written any other way. On the other hand, a subjective list that has some editorial input is subject to copyright. For example, the Rolling Stone 500 Greatest Albums List; even if it had no explanatory prose, there is creative input to the ordering of the list, so it would be copyrighted. The Copyright FAQ has a little more detail about your second question, if you ctrl+F the phrase "Facts cannot be copyrighted", it's that paragraph.
 * However, copyright aside, I'm not sure lists of non-notable pastors and bell inscriptions are encyclopedic information that we should include in articles. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 18:40, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the clarification, PMC. And thanks for the link to that paragraph. I also see that the next paragraph begins: "Data that is not subject to copyright may be, and indeed often should be, copied verbatim." I think I must have copied those lists from the pamphlet, assuming they were not protected by copyright. I cannot honestly remember how closely I copied the rest. But I may have made some shaky assumptions based on the fact the leaflet had no author, no publisher and no date. As I live nowhere near there, however, it's not really possible to check if the church still has copies. I suspect that the details of clergy and bell inscriptions were sourced by the church itself; the last date for the Rector being 1973 suggests the pamphlet hadn't been updated for some years. But the other historical/ architectural detail may have been sourced from elsewhere. I don't think any sources were quoted, or I might have sought them out. Perhaps there are snippets from those other sources that might be used to re-add some history/ architecture? e.g. this source gives the benefice, deanery and archdeaconry. Thanks for your help with this. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Right but... I didn't nuke the article because of those lists. I stubbed it presumptively because of the precedent set at Church of St Peter and St Mary, Stowmarket, where the entire article was primarily sourced to a church pamphlet and turned out to be entirely a light paraphrase of that pamphlet. Since the Peter & Paul church article was also primarily sourced to a church pamphlet, I made the call that the Peter & Paul article was likely to also be extensively paraphrased.
 * I added the deanery to the text and updated the infobox. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, ok. So it wasn't just because there was no longer any extant source. You presumed it was all coyvio on the basis of my other failings at Stowmarket. That's perfectly reasonable, of course. It might have looked a bit odd if you just left the lists of bells and Rectors. If I do manage to locate any good alternative source(s), I may have a go at suggesting some replacement text. Thanks for adding that and updating. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem. Separately, now that you've called the lists to my attention, I don't think they're particularly encyclopedic and believe they're better off left out. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 20:13, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think church historians and campanologists might disagree, but never mind. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC) p.s. it's the medieval chancel wall paintings, dating from 1330, that really deserve a mention. That's was what drew me to that church in the first place. Maybe there are some usable images somewhere.

Suggested addition
Could I perhaps suggest this to re-start a History section:


 * Christianity was first brought to South Oxfordshire by St Birinus, in the 7th century, who converted the local chieftain Caeca. It is suggested that the first place of worship may have been a small wattle and daub structure erected on the site of a local pagan shrine. The church dates from 1152 when, influenced by the monks of Bec, the present nave, chancel and semi-circular apse were built, with a wooden tower over the chancel.


 * In the 15th century windows, a font, tower and porch were all added. A restoration in the Victorian era removed the exterior rendering, raised the floor levels in the chancel and apse, and completely refurnished the interior with new pews, a pulpit and a pipe organ. Rare 14th-century apse wall paintings in the apse were uncovered and were heavily restored. The plaster from the chancel walls was largely removed.


 * In the 20th century, the apse wall paintings were restored to be closer to their original condition. A new altar and choir stalls, made of local wood, were installed. In the 1950s the roof of the nave was completely renewed; local people hand-carved bosses, under the supervision of war artist and sculptor Eric Kennington, who was a churchwarden. Three modern windows were installed, one an etched window by Lawrence Whistler.


 * Around 2000 the organ was removed, to repair the wooden floor damaged by wet rot, and traces of medieval paint were uncovered on the chancel wall. After careful conservation, remains of high quality paintings dating from 1330 were revealed. These had escaped the Reformation as they had been plastered over. Experts from the Courtauld Institute, described the paintings as "extremely rare and significant" and the "most important find of its type in 20 years".


 * In 2012 the church was completely re-roofed, at a cost of over £300,000.

Martinevans123 (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2023‎ Any comments on that, PMC? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Your version has the same problems that your proposed text for Karl Jenkins had when we talked about it before. The overall structure is the same, most sentences are just reworded a little, paragraphs have the same sentences in the same order. It's a light paraphrase but still recognizably derived from the source. I'm still not sure you see the fundamental issue with the close paraphrasing, and how to write without doing that. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 22:57, 19 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh, I see. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 22 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I... don't think you do. 46 people have explained to you how to rewrite information in your own words, yet here we are. Seasider53 (talk) 09:56, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * , violating WP:NPA, which is what you just did, is not effective as a way of helping an editor learn how to do things the right way. Maybe you see it as a way of virtue-signaling, but if you keep it up I will seek sanctions against you. Martin, please understand, however, that PMC has raised very important points, and you need to take that seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:11, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * , if I recall correctly your "explanation" to me was that everyone else learned what to do at school; followed by your exhortation that I was refusing to rewrite anything, in favour of simply asking other editors to re-write it for me. If you are keen to offer constructive criticism, by all means offer your appraisal of my suggested re-write for Politicz above, before we get feedback from Ovinus. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:28, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile here's a 13-word sentence from one of the sources:
 * "There was a complete re-roofing in 2012 at a cost of over £300,000."
 * I would be genuinely interested to see how you would rewrite it, to avoid copyright, and to ensure it's not "recognizably taken from the source", by using alternative words for starters... you know, things we learned at school." Thanks.
 * Although it would be a waste of time for the article, of course, if that fact was simply considered to be "unencyclopeadic." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:21, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * "The building's roof was replaced in 2012, at a cost estimated to have been around £300,000."? Seasider53 (talk) 21:43, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That looks fine to me. Thanks, Seasider53. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:12, 12 February 2023 (UTC)


 * PMC, thank you for your appraisal. Perhaps a more condensed version might be better? But I have also added two short sentences about the bells:
 * The church dates from 1152 when, influenced by the monks of Bec, the present nave, chancel and semi-circular apse were built. At this time the chancel had a wooden tower. In the 15th century windows, a font, tower and porch were all added. In the Victorian era, as part of a restoration, exterior rendering was removed; inside the church the chancel and apse floor levels were raised, and new pews, a pulpit and a pipe organ were fitted. Plaster from the chancel walls was largely removed and "fine and rare" 14th-century apse wall paintings were uncovered, but also heavily restored.


 * In the 20th century, the apse wall paintings were brought closer to their original condition and a new altar and choir stalls were installed. The nave roof was completely renewed in the 1950s when local people hand-carved bosses, under the supervision of war artist and sculptor Eric Kennington, who was a churchwarden. Three modern windows were also installed. The When organ was removed, to repair the wooden floor, traces of medieval paint were uncovered on the chancel wall. After careful conservation, remains of high quality paintings dating from 1330 were revealed, having escaped the Reformation by being plastered over. Experts from the Courtauld Institute, described the paintings as "extremely rare and significant" and the "most important find of its type in 20 years". In 2012 the church was completely re-roofed.


 * In 1765 six bells was installed and in 1879 these were re-hung in a metal frame with shell bearings. They were re-hung again in 1967, when two new bells were added and the bearings replaced with sealed lubricant units.


 * If you still find this version inadequate, I would very much appreciate your help in showing how it can be improved. I have assumed that it's better to keep the details, and thus the paragraphs, in chronological order, although the bells form their own topic. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Martin, I know you're making good faith efforts here, but again, what you've done with this version is to remove some detail and slightly reorder some sentences. It's still fundamentally the same text as the version I looked at a week ago, which means it is still recognizably taken from the source. On top of that, the two sentences you've added about the bells are also taken from the source with only light change, which to me suggests that you still don't understand the problem.
 * I'm truly sorry. Mentoring has never been my strong suit and I simply do not know how coach you how to approach writing any differently. I respect your efforts to improve but I just don't have the capacity to be involved any further. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 23:25, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm very sorry too. Yes, all of my efforts have been in 100% good faith. I had hoped you might have been able to give me small concrete examples on this one. Or is that "simply asking other editors to re-write it for me"? I suspect that the ability to identify the source may be a function of the number of sources, e.g. much easier when there is only one source. It looks like I will have to provide a third re-write and ask another editor to appraise it. I'll have to ask other editors to judge re-writes of other examples you have flagged up at the CCI. Thank you for all of your advice and patience.
 * Notwithstanding a copyright law suit from the Langtree Team Ministry, the original text for the bells is this:
 * The bell tower has a peal of eight bells. The original peal of 6 bells was installed in 1765, as indicated by the inscription on some of the heavy back six. These were re-hung in 1879 when the metal frame with shell bearings was installed. They were re-hung again in 1967 when the peal was augmented to 8 bells. At the same time the shell bearings were replaced with sealed lubricant bearings.
 * Perhaps a copyright compliant re-write might be: "The church has eight bells. Six of these were installed in 1765 and two more added in 1879"? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:57, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

So I guess I have to conclude from PMC's appraisal of the second attempt that nothing is worth saving, i.e. that none of that text is not a breach of copyright. If that's so, I'm some what surprised. But that's my problem, it seems. I've also had a look at the NHLE source (the text for which is actually taken from Sherwood and Pevsner (1974)), and which is currently used only for this:
 * "Its earliest parts are 12th-century and it is a Grade I listed building."

Perhaps these details could be added:
 * "The exterior is of coursed flint with stone dressing; the chancel and apse have a plain tile roof. The porch is situated to the left of the nave centre and has a two-centre archway and two-light windows on each side. The doorway to the nave is Romanesque with a round arch supported on columns with decorated capitals. The tympanum has been restored. Inside the church the north door of the nave is blocked and has a sculpture by Eric Kennington. The font is from the 16th century. The nave roof is 15th-century and has carved wooden bosses at the intersection of the vault ribs. There are 13th-century wall paintings in the apse, which show a procession of apostles. In the chancel floor there are 15th-century monumental brass. There is also a window by Laurence Whistler."

(It seems the Ministry Team source has an incorrect date for the font). Could someone possibly tell me if this is again a breach of copyright, because it's "too close a paraphrase", with only "slight rearrangement in the order of sentences." Sorry but I am simply unable to suggest any other words for all those linked, and for most of those not linked. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:42, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Evening Martin - Yes, as we’ve discussed before, it can be tricky to summarise/recast architectural descriptions, particularly when they include multiple technical terms. If it would help, I can take a look at this church (it’ll be the weekend, not tomorrow) and have a stab at a first draft, which we could then use as the basis of a discussion. It’s a pity you can’t use one of my sandboxes as I think your Talkpage has a little too much of the glare of publicity these days! How about I email you something, we talk about it offline, and then we can see if the result meets with approval. Let me know. KJP1 (talk) 19:02, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh yes please, KJP. Kindly email me a good version and I'll just post it here, pretending it's all my own work. Thank you so much for such a swift and polite offer of real help. But I'm sorry to say I am considering a far simpler and more permanent method of avoiding the "glare of publicity". It seems I have nothing more to offer the project, other than to waste the time of competent editors like your good self. If I can't be trusted to use my own sandbox, the notion of using someone else's seems quite a step. If I'm still here by Saturday, I'll be sure to let you know. Thanks again. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:15, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I know it's been tough. But you've a lot to contribute on here. And you would be as much missed as I think you would miss it. Nothing precipitate. KJP1 (talk) 22:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Alas, no. I'd be very happy to tidy references, find sources, correct spelling errors, improve punctuation, make corrections of grammatical errors, discuss article re-naming, improve article structure, search for new copyright compliant images, add links to copyright compliant audio or video tracks, revert obvious vandalism, warn and report vandals and trolls, and yes actually report cut-and-paste copyvio.... etc., etc. ...all those activities that took 90% of my time here before July last year. But the way Wikipedia sanctions are structured means that, because PMC has shown above, that I don't really understand copyright, none of these things are possible. The risk to the project is too great, it seems, that I might add more copyvio content. Being locked in the padded cell of one's own Talk page looses it's attraction after six months. Especially when, after four months, a passing Administrator decides to remove one's TPA, because one hasn't requested an unblock and has just "accumulated 150k of chit-chat". Overriding all of this, seems to be principle that both blocking and unblocking here are at Admin discretion. And we still have the CCI that remains half finished and with which I am unable to help. Not a great recipe for future success, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:57, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Martin, back in my own teaching days, there were times when I would reach the point of feeling like a particular student was becoming more work than I wanted to give to it – but that was my job, and I was being paid to do it. Like all of us here, PMC is a volunteer rather than a paid professional, and it's entirely appropriate and reasonable for her to decide, any time she wants to, to switch her time and effort to something else. And that's what she has determined in her comment above. She has no more ability to determine your capacity to contribute than I do. It's not a determination that you cannot contribute positively here, just a determination that she wants to do something else.
 * The decision to edit or not is entirely yours. And the fact that you have stuck with it, here in the narrow confines of your talk page, is truly impressive. I know it's unpleasant when people criticize you, and it's entirely up to you whether or not you want to put up with it. But please don't confuse that with the critics being right. "If I'm still here by Saturday" sounds like something I hope you don't mean: "here" should just mean WP. As KJP1 says, nothing precipitate.
 * If you feel like taking a break from editing now, by all means. Once again, entirely up to you. No need to push yourself to edit when your heart is not in it. But if you want to work some more on this, on your talk page, know that there are plenty of us here who will be happy to help. Not to write it for you, of course. KJP1 is way better at writing about UK buildings than I am, but if there is any part of this where I could help, please let me know. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Trypto, for your sensible words and encouragement. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I see that KJP1 has now very kindly added some additional sources to the Talk page. I was going to ask about that existing NHLE Listing text.... as I don't have a copy of Sherwood & Pevsner (1974). Is it copied from there? Does that mean it's a violation of copyright itself? Or how does NHLE get around that? Or is it paraphrased/ re-written by NHLE? Or is it all just facts, and "Facts cannot be copyrighted." Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Another how-to tip
I see that various editors have lent their ideas of how to write while avoiding copyvio issues, and a lot of good ideas have been given already. I wanted to add another (the more tools in the toolbox, the better, right?). You've already got your source at hand (otherwise you wouldn't be in this pickle), so start reading the relevant page containing the content you want to add. Depending on whether you have an excellent memory, pretty good, middling, or lousy memory (like I do) read several sentences or a paragraph (me) to several paragraphs, or half a page or even a page. Now, turn away and towards a blank file in your fave text editing program. Without looking at the source, summarize what you just read, typing it into your notes program. You'll forget stuff, that's fine; just write what you remember, as a summary, in your own words, as if you are explaining it to class of intelligent 16-year olds. You won't remember everything (that is the point!) and it's possible you'll forget something important, like a name, or place. Just type "John Bas-something from Leic-something was born in 1158/1518/ and became Chief High-some-title-or-other of Strange-nameia..." i.e., don't get stuck, just keep typing and barge ahead, and avoid the temptation to go to the source to "get it right". When you are *completely done* summarizing what you read, that's the point to go back and get the right spelling of the names, places, exact dates, and so on from the source, but only that.

The trick is in picking a section long enough that you won't remember it very well, but not so long that you'll forget crucial, important basics. Did you forget an entire war that put an end to the kingdom you're writing about? Oops; the section was too long; try shorter next time. Did you do a terrific job, quite accurate in fact, not missing any details, and even getting some of the minor players and places in there, and some of the original wording? Oops; the passage you read was too short; try doubling it next time. (You may have to tweak it longer or shorter for subjects you know something about, vs. ones that are unfamiliar to you.) You'll find the sweet spot with some practice, that is, how long a passage to read so that you are guaranteed not to remember the words anymore, but still pick up the gist of all the main ideas. This, in fact, is the definition of what we do here as Wikipedia editors: WP:NOR policy says you should "research the most reliable sources on the topic and summarize what they say in your own words." This is a method to facilitate doing exactly that.

After I do my reading, I like to close my eyes, and just think to myself, "Okay, what did he just say?" And I pause a few seconds, working out in my head what the main two or three ideas were, maybe coming up silently with some wording, and finally, I go to my note program and type it out. When you're done with that, add the citation (definitely copying from the title/copyright page for this), and copy it (your words + the citation) into the article. Voila, you're done. You may feel a little panicky trying this for the first time, like "I'll get it all wrong", and you'll be tempted to cheat and look at the source again. Resist. Just go through the exercise, and see how you do. Would love to hear back, if this works for you. Does for me. Mathglot (talk) 08:38, 8 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the top tip, Mathglot. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:14, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Geoffrey Arnold Beck (24 June 1944 – 10 January 2023)
RIP Jeff Beck.
 * "After experimenting with “stretching rubber bands over tobacco cans and making horrible noises”, he graduated to an old and battered acoustic guitar, and then built his own instrument using a cigar box and a picture frame."
 * - Adam Sweeting in The Guardian.. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:59, 17 January 2023 (UTC) "Blue Wind" from Wired (1976)

February songs
yesterday's cantata, 300 years later --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:20, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

today a book, Alte Liebe, for Valentine --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

... and today the regional festival - DYK of 13 years ago ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

My story on 24 February is about Artemy Vedel (TFA by Amitchell235), and I made a suggestion for more peace, - what do you think? - You can write it here. I probably told you that we sang Pärt's Da pacem Domine, but it fits here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Of the video's I like this best, not only because we work with the conductor ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:48, 24 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Thankyou so much, Gerda. Beautiful. Yes, eternal spherical sounds. So powerful. Just beautiful. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:04, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
 * today: two women whose birthday we celebrate today, 99 and 90! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Happy St David's Day!
 ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 19:03, 1 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Haha...! Thank you, Ian. "Dydd Gwyl Dewi Hapus" a chi hefyd! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

March stories
today: where I learned opera, + 3 women -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. An amazing looking building. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:05, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Hey Martin, since I heard that Roger Waters was going to re-record The Dark Side of the Moon, I thought I'd do likewise, but I can't send a 45-minute mp3 over email. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  14:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Mr Waters seems to have been on that lonely dark side for quite some time now? But maybe I'm just being unfair. Maybe just do one at a time! Martinevans123 (talk) 09:18, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

today a woman, a 2016 DYK remembered (our conductor was courageous and called her to step in for a concert on short notice, and she was interested! - only had no time that day in 2013. We got Gabriela Eibenová who was also great). Girls and women sang how Bach arranged Pergolesi's Stabat Mater to a new text paraphrasing Psalm 51, last Sunday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:23, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the links, Gerda. She is here in 2020 with Markéta Cukrová. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:27, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! more Pergolesi duet --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Latest singer I wrote about: Johanna Geisler, off the FAC of her famous husband. I envy you that could simply congratulate "his" author on the promotion. - Composer Marek Kopelent died, and it's Saint Patrick's Day --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:41, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you Gerda. The external link is to an amazing performance by VOCES8 at St Vedast Foster Lane. The piece commissioned for Louth Contemporary Music Society. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:23, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the version I admire most! - Today we remember the 150th birthday of Max Reger, who saw the horrors of a world war right when it began in 1914, while others were still in high patriotic moods --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * BWV 1 today, and new pics, more of them tomorrow --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:15, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link Gerda. Here's a 2014 rendition of the original hymn translated by William Mercer (b. 1811) by Choir of Keble College Oxford, and also one by the Lautten Compagney / Wolfgang Katschner: with Dorothee Mields. I hear today that Arvo Pärt has been jointly awarded Sweden's Polar Music Prize, with Chris Blackwell of Island Records and Angélique Kidjo.  . Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you - sharing impressions from vacation on Madeira 20-30 March, pics now at 24 Mar from the peaks --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:28, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I miss the tiny print, nobody can pull it off as well as you. Hopefully you will escape the talk page exile soon but, if not, at least you'll always have Paris. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:17, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I never knew the charm of spring? But still a modest fan, you know. I often skip the T&Cs, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:37, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Jeremy Corbyn, Tolpuddle 2016, 1 crop.jpg

"He stared at me and I felt a change!" ]] I wrote an article on That's 60s today - the first TV station I can remember that I can put on for hours without wanting to switch over. Even if it's some cheesy mid-1960s MOR stuff, you can always hope the next clip is Jimi Hendrix at the Royal Albert Hall. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  19:36, 28 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Very nice. Ah yes, "Diddy" David Hamilton and good ol' Whispering Bob. Let's hope so. ... Not 'arf, pop pickers!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)


 * "It's astounding, Time is fleeting", perhaps. ... oh and sorry again, Ritchie, for the 87,000 tonnes of controlled waste, etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:54, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

April songs
Congratulations!! - My story today is about the Alchymic Quartet, - I went away from DYK but it's the last one from last year. - The songs are about vacation, continued. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:53, 2 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you Gerda. Here's his Toccatina Precipitando. Timothy McGovern, bassoon; John Dee, oboe, it says (but not that one) ... Very jaunty. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! - While we sang Da pacem Domine again, more serene than the first time. Found this Cry in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds wonderful. And that is just beautiful. Ah, Michael D. Higgins, bless him. Chamber Choir Ireland looks interesting. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:36, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I made an exception from my DYK abstinence for Good Friday, - see my story today. Interesting to compare a hook 2023 style to one in 2012 (see my story today). - I sang, including chorales from Bach's greatest Passion. I recently listened to one by Homilius: a discovery! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:54, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. Isaac Watts (1707). Martinevans123 (talk) 19:18, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * how soft and strong! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:44, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Happy Easter, Gerda! Martinevans123 (talk) 09:22, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, also to you - in Germany, we still celebrate, see my story. - Happy it was. I loved to see Marian Anderson and her story of protest against discrimination by singing on Easter Sunday 9 April 1939 on the Main page yesterday. Impressions of Easter here and music here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:27, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My story today, Messiah (Handel), was my first dip into the FA ocean, thanks to great colleagues. - a few pics added, one day missing --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:16, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
 * A great article. Brian really put a lot of work into that. I guess it should be première, even though he was born in Brandenburg-Prussia. { Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! - : I added, finally ;) - today's stories are about Johanna Geisler and Huub Oosterhuis, a singer and a songwriter. More here if you have time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links. Last night BBC had the St John Passion from the 2008 Proms, with the Monteverdi Choir and the English Baroque Soloists, conducted by John Eliot Gardiner, with Mark Padmore and Peter Harvey. Wonderful. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Great! - Yesterday I listened to a young singer (in her prize winner's concert) whom I know since she was a baby on her mother's lap rehearsing the St Matthew Passion, conducted by her father. Some day she'll have an article, but not by me, - too close ;) - She'll be the only vocal soloist in both upcoming choral concerts, 6 May (Misatango) and 15 October (Duruflé Requiem). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Today is the 80th birthday of John Eliot Gardiner. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:20, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed. I had no idea he was an "Uphill Gardiner" (as a consequence of his unorthodox farming methods). Also... he favours Monteverdi over Bach. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:32, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * sure, or why would it be Monteverdi choir? - latest news ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:39, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I reckon he's good for any old baroque and roll.... . Martinevans123 (talk) 17:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * the things you find because you heard a countertenor in a Handel opera --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:22, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * How fascinating, Gerda. Thank you so much. Les Talens Lyriques are quite wonderful, I think. I see your improvements at Stabat Mater (Pergolesi). And at Christopher Lowrey, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC) p.s. I see that OutThere has it on CD and am very tempted to buy!

... more about the Gardiner news: part of the service in Welsh, and Bryn Terfel singing (whom I enjoyed as Verdi's Falstaff). - How do you like today's story? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Misatango coming up for me - 4 choirs and a great bandeonist, - will write her article tomorrow --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)


 * That looks very exciting, Gerda! I wonder could I possibly ask you to archive for me, from "Blocks all round" to "Whatfield"? Thank you so much. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:20, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * archiving almost done - the program will grace the Main page on coronation day if running as planned - imagine! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:12, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you again, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:13, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

David Allen Kirwan
Hi Gimly24. Yes, I did find it online back in 2021, didn't I. GoogleBooks now gives me six snippet-view results. Perhaps you can see more, or see which one of those six uses the word "unusual"? Maybe the report of the Board of Enquiry uses that word, or something similar. I doubt the word "unusual" is under copyright to Lee. H. Whittlesey, or even to Roberts Rinehart... even when surrounded by several other words (like Kirwan's name and the place?) Or even by a whole Yellowstone sentence. But I can well understand your caution. One wouldn't want to get into hot water. And we wouldn't want to be quoting directly from Z-Library, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:39, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Martinevans, I have the paper book and numerical book in my possession. I do not know if you intentionally made a very dark joke here with "But I can well understand your caution. One wouldn't want to get into hot water" (it's not funny) or you were talking about as a general of thumb. I could search the book easily. Let me check it. There are 3 pages concerning his death. The first sentence along with a few others describe, like you said, an extremely rare occurence of someone who intentionally dove in an hot spring (I don't know of any of other cases like that), in this case to save a dog. Like i previously said in the 2021 discussion, falling in and dying from falling in a hot springs is not unusual, with thermal injuries happening each year and deaths uncommonly. The only things that would potentially make it unusual is "intentionally" "dove head first" "in the 202˚F Celestine Pool" "to save a dog". Another thing odd is that people yelling him not to go and he answered that he wouldn't but then proceed to dove in to get that dog...
 * here :
 * "IT IS A MYSTERY WHY ANYONE would dive headfirst into a Yellowstone hot spring merely to save a dog, but that is precisely what happened on July 20, 1981" (It is as presented in the book, the 6 first words capitalized).
 * «Ratliff and another bystander both saw that Kirwan was preparing to go into the spring, and the bystander yelled, “Don’t go in there!” Kirwan yelled back, “Like hell I won’t!” Several more people yelled not to go in, but Kirwan took two steps into the pool then diving head-first into the boiling water. One witness described it as a flying, swimming-pool-type dive.»
 * the term 'Unusual' is not said by the author (that's a fact). Does it imply that it is (it's a matter of opinion). He do not use a synonym of the word either (well according to the google search "unusual synonym") :
 * From Oxford Languages, 'unusual' : "not habitually or commonly occurring or done." (well... the definition sums what the person did... all 3)
 * Words of similar meanings (from De Oxford Languages) :
 * "uncommon, abnormal, atypical, unexpected, surprising, unfamiliar, unwonted, different, strange, odd, curious, out of the ordinary, extraordinary, out of the way, unorthodox, uncustomary, unconventional, outlandish, offbeat, off-center, deviant, novel, singular, peculiar, queer, bizarre, freakish, quirky, alien, rare, scarce, few and far between, thin on the ground, exceptional, isolated, occasional, infrequent, irregular, sporadic, out of the common, weird, oddball, way out, freaky, something else, off the wall, backasswards, seldom"
 * I feel that it probably shouldn't be included because "unusual" is not said & "mystery" is not a synonym. If you agree with this, should i remove it from the holding list ? thanks much. Gimly24 (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * actually, this website has the full story too : . The owner of that site probably is doing something wrong. [well the text is a bit altered]
 * The footnotes do not talk about the death that much but more about the dog breed. Gimly24 (talk) 23:52, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your very fulsome reply, Gimly24. Yes dark, my apologies. Perhaps you were related? But both, in fact. I guess you could open a discussion thread on the Talk page to try and gain consequence on which words are acceptable synonyms. Wouldn't be backasswards here, I guess, as he dived in. I tend to agree with you that if something is a mystery, no-one knows if it's unusual or not. But that's just my opinion. And do you think David Mikkelson at Snopes is in breach of copyright? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:30, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Martinevans,
 * No i’m not related to this person.
 * And it is my mistake, i didn’t see the section sources of the link. I thought he didn’t source the text. He is not in breach of copyright.
 * what does backassward means anyways ? My birth tongue is french and some words were unknown to me (like i never heard or red them before) such as “unwonted” “backasswards” and “Queer”.
 * I’m quite busy right now and I will let you know when or if i post a new thread regarding this person death on the talk page of the wikipedia page.
 * Thank you for you reply and i hope you have a great day 😊. - Gimly24 Gimly24 (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Mail
KJP1 (talk) 10:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Many thanks, KJP. They look very useful. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:03, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Talk:John Major
Hi Tim O'Doherty. You say here, "The image has now been changed: would like to hear your thoughts on it." But it's the same picture as used since 2021? Neveselbert made a change here, on 12 April, with the edit summary "rv copyvio", although there was no image visible. Not sure what's going on there. I'm sorry I can't reply on that Talk page at the moment. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:59, 15 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah, those were the days.... John really had to look after his image. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:17, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

At least he didn't have to "fight to the death to save his political career" like some...(?)
 * Every mornin' at the mine you could see him arrive
 * He stood six-foot-six and weighed two-forty-five
 * Kinda broad at the shoulder and narrow at the hip
 * And everybody knew ya didn't give no lip to big Dom
 * (Big Dom, big Dom)
 * Big bad Dom (big Dom)..... Martinevans123 (talk) 17:01, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

History corner: them Royals what we 'ave loved... (gawd bless 'er, and all them wot sails in 'er)

 * Miranada Richradson - childish, spoiled and silly, possessing a fiery temper.
 * Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother - well-known horse racing fan and drinks sponsor.
 * Queen Elizabeth 2 - retired British ocean liner converted into a floating hotel.
 * Queenie Watts - star of TV series Stars and Garters and many British 1970s sex comedies.
 * Camilla, Queen Consort - something rather novel.

G'night possums
"Tell me the story of that frock Judy, it's obviously an old favorite; you were wise to remove the curtain rings." Dame Edna Everage (1934-2023) Martinevans123 (talk) 08:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)


 * In the stillness of a church Where candles glow,  In the softness of a fall  Of fresh white snow,  In the brightness of the stars  That shine this night,  In the calmness of a pool  Of healing light,  In the clearness of a choir  That softly sings,  In the oneness of a hush  Of angels’ wings,  In the mildness of a night  By stable bare,  In the quietness of a lull  Near cradle fair,  There’s a patience as we wait  For a new morn,  And the presence of a child  Soon to be born.

Too close for comfort?
Unhinged former Putin advisor Sergei Markov threatens nuclear war against the UK in the first 30 seconds of his Radio 4 interview.

And besides, Volodymyr Zelenskyy was just hiding in Finland.... so that proves everything!

An "act of terrorism" apparently. Meanwhile.... 9,000–16,502 Ukrainian civilians killed? Just bad luck, it seems. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:54, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

RIP Linda Lewis
Farewell Linda Ann Fredericks (27 September 1950 – 3 May 2023). This track was possibly even better than the original, from Woman Overboard (1977): just so beautiful. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:14, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Slide guitar – Snowy White
 * Acoustic guitars – Jim Cregan, Alun Davies
 * Keyboards – Max Middleton
 * Harmonica – Peter Hope Evans
 * Background vocals – Anna Peacock, Linda Lewis
 * Producer – Jim Cregan


 * Thank you. And Gordon Lightfoot. - The Main page remembers Amoz Oz. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. If you could read my mind, Gerda, What a tale my thoughts could tell. Just like an old time movie, 'Bout a ghost from a wishing well. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Fellas, it's too rough to feed ya. - Not enough references for the Main page, and I have no time - pleasant reason: tango. On the pic the conductor of Te Deum (music open at that page), with the conductor of the mass playing piano, the soprano, and the vacuum-cleaner. The choir from Belgium to come tomorrow - and my guests. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like it will be amazing! And now I know where Zwijndrecht is. 😊 Martinevans123 (talk) 19:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It was, and I had a good story on coronation day: the Te Deum we sang that day. And the following day we sang it for the composer ;) - And today we remember a composer who created music especially for us! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Could you find refs for Grace Bumbry? - they are marked as missing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems you have beaten me to it (very unsurprisingly)... An opera great and a pioneer of course. Surprised she is not on Main page already, as she was American, etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:46, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * They are rather impartial. It needs refs and nothing but refs. I have Menahem Pressler there - met in the interview event mentioned which was a blessing - and one per day is enough ;) - Gordon Lightfoot didn't make it, and that's not because he's Canadian but because I was away ;) - Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps look for Leontyne Price already, because it's missing more refs than can be collected in a day or two. Refs while still alive - that would be something new. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Found one more, in German but see lead pic! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * For Price (not that one), it seems what Bing actually said in 1950 was, "I shall be happy to engage Negro singers, if I can find the right voice for the right part." Martinevans123 (talk) 18:08, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, and has Bumbry also. Also found the review of our concert, pictured. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:58, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Marvellous.
 * Re "The production played in Pittsburgh, Chicago and Washington, D.C., and then toured Vienna, Berlin, London, and Paris, under the auspices of the U.S. State Department", I see there is this source for the London premier, on 9 October 1952, at Porgy and Bess: But this source says: "It was during the memorable revival of Porgy and Bess that began in 1952 that critics and the public hailed the discovery of the finest of all its leading singers, Leontyne Price and William Warfield. Their consummate artistry and unerring musicality, which was capable of the entire range of operatic literature, endowed George Gershwin’s work with a new depth and beauty. It was as if Porgy and Bess were newly discovered. In the almost two years Miss Price remained with the company, she sang Bess in London, Paris, Berlin and Vienna as well as in New York. Mr. Warfield sang Porgy for seven months during that historic tour and returned to the role in the 1961 revival." Might be useful if it is considered strong enough? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Re marriage to William Warfield: "He sang opposite the soprano Leontyne Price, whom he married at the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem, New York, with the whole cast of Porgy in attendance on the day before it set off for Europe." and " On August 30, 1952, exactly one day before the entire cast of Porgy and Bess left for a European tour, the couple married and held their wedding ceremony at the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem, New York. The entire cast attended the ceremony.". So it was in fact the entire cast, not "many of the cast". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, - sadly still busy with people who died. May she live much longer! - more pleasant music (heard today!) if you click on songs - did you know a string quartet with two cellos (and no article yet in English? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I do now, thanks. Although I knew absolutely nothing about Anton Arensky before. So many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ... and now May scenery pictured when you click on songs, - and great music staged that Handel didn't conceive as an opera, with the outstanding Paula! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:38, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. Opera with English words! yay!! Such a dramatic work. Here's the wonderful Joyce Di Donato with Les Arts Florissants (William Christie, 2014, Aix-en-Provence). Handy French subtitles! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:51, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you! - more pics, also new memory and music, and ten years ago I had a DYK for my most serious article --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link, Gerda. I'll try and find some more sources for Leontyne. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, - just two more died who come first. - Pentecost was full of music, and my story today is that 300 years ago today, Bach became Thomaskantor, with BWV 75, writing music history. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:14, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I did one of those two, always hoping I'll get to using your sources! - Good news, and a first ever for us: our yt is out! - I mean 2 days ago, but I only put it on my talk, not going around advertising - 806 views when I looked last - will advertise tomorrow with the piece on the Main page again, choir pictured ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Now 807, lol. Looks amazing. But I need to dedicate the full 1:07. Are you easy to spot? Do you get a close up?! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:47, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 816. I am often just above the conductor, because I'm on the right side, last row, not far from the lamp which shines on a woman next to my friend Maria (conductor's wife, soloist's mother, to the right the way you look), who's next to me (one more right). I haven't seen it all (but listened, yes), but doubt that the altos got any close-ups, saw only soprano and tenor. The sopranos watch the conductor better ;) - I tried to count altos from the right, but the camera rarely gets them all, and they are "packed". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:09, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, gotcha! (I think). An amazing piece of music. I'm sure the video will get many more views. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:35, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

More Leontyne Price

 * Re: "Although many black newspapers criticized the export of Porgy and Bess as presenting a false and demeaning picture of black life..." there's a whole paper by a David Monod in Journal of American Studies here, but it looks like my JSTOR access has now expired.
 * Re: "In November 1954, Price made her formal recital debut at New York's Town Hall." There's an NYT source here.
 * Re: "".. later NBC Opera broadcasts were boycotted by several NBC affiliates, most of them in the South, because of her race." There's a partial source here. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:55, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Re: "In Vienna, she made her first full opera recording for RCA, singing Donna Elvira in Mozart's Don Giovanni, conductd by Erich Leinsdorf." Partial source here.
 * Re: "The next fall, she appeared as Leonora in Verdi's Il Trovatore in San Francisco, with the Swedish tenor Jussi Björling." Partial source here

Advice
If you are ever unblocked, it would be best for you to use my style of writing articles for yourself. Rule #1 of what I never do is use a single source as a template for writing articles. I always use two or more. When you do this, you can get information not explicitly stated in either article as long as you don't violate WP:SYNTHESIS or WP:OR. Rule #2 of what I never do is allow Earwig to mark anything down as a potential copyvio at all.

See what I did at Thanksgiving Day Disaster to see what I mean. I combined two sources to tell a story in my own words. Scorpions13256 (talk) 22:47, 15 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that very useful advice, Scorpions13256. I've tried to find some sources for Gerda for existing material in the Leontyne Price article. But I have not suggested any textual changes or additions, because that's not one of the articles that's been reviewed in my CCI. Sometimes it's possible to find only a single source for a claim. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:37, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Grade II listed building in Gwynedd
Do you have any interest in helping to fill out Draft:Plas Dinas? (An IP on the talkpage of the Lord Snowdon article had me start it.) Also, are you any good at making infoboxes for listed buildings? Softlavender (talk) 07:10, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I forgot you were still blocked. What a sad state of affairs and waste of a good wiki editor. Softlavender (talk) 07:18, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Softlavender. Thanks for your message! Hope you are well. Yes, I think I would normally be able to add an infobox, just about. Someone else who might be able to help is KJP1, who is always excellent with that type of small property. I'm not sure any more that there are "good" editors or "bad" ones.... just blocked editors and unblocked ones. Alas I cannot be trusted to add an infobox to anything, in case I sneakily add some copyvio text.... It's all or nothing with the blocking policy, isn't it. Just to let you know... of the 1056 edits checked so far at the CCI, 289 have been claimed (or assumed) to be copyvios, which is 27%. But out of my edit total of 206,383 those 289 are just 0.14%. Not that anyone actually cares, of course. It seems that the checking of my edits at the CCI has now fallen to a rate of one a month. So at this rate the backlog will be cleared in the year 2311. Yay. . Martinevans123 (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to let you know that I'm still watching here. Those percentages are, in my opinion, thought provoking. Of course, we are all confident that you will still be young, spry, and handsome in 2311, but still. Maybe we who are watching here should begin, slowly and thoughtfully, to think about crafting an appeal. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * We all know how hopeless total edit count is. But CCI hits are equally blunt. Whether it's an entire article or just one sentence, it's still a copyvio, it's still a black mark. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:47, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I've taken some time to think this over, and I came up with a suggestion. I'm starting from the basic fact that it is unrealistic for the community to expect you to wait until the CCI backlog is cleared, when the backlog is moving so slowly. What you could consider doing – only if you feel like it, and only with no requirement of you doing it any faster than you choose – is to use your talk page to start going through the CCI entries that have not yet been reviewed.
 * What I'm thinking of is this. Look at the entries that nobody has gotten to yet. When you find ones where it's not clear to you what the problem is, just skip over those. But when you find one where you can actually see now what a good correction would be, write a version of that correction here on your talk page, and ping whatever editor worked on the CCI most closely to that, asking them to evaluate your suggestion. This could be a good way of racking up evidence of your good faith and of your improved understanding of the problem, while not being held hostage to the slowness of the backlog. Might be worth a try. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea. Meanwhile, your opinion on St Mary the Virgin, Hanbury above, would be much appreciated. Oh, and ... thanks for stoppin' by! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 25 May 2023 (UTC) "Just what is true, what else can you do. Just follow the rules, Keep your eyes on the road that's ahead of you... "
 * p.s. "... ping whatever editor worked on the CCI most closely to that"... alas, until an editor actually checks the addition, there isn't one. That's why I've been looking at edits that have already been checked. But thanks anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:04, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, what with WP:IAR, you don't have to hew too closely to "most closely". It could be someone who checked something about a related topic, or someone who recently responded to another ping from you. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I had thought it might be useful to employ the approach of "The source said this... My original edit said this.... My new suggested edit says this..." But I see that Copying text from other sources says this:
 * Can I copy text into a user page or talk page in order to work on it?
 * No. While your user page and talk page may include brief quotations from copyrighted text, Wikipedia cannot host extensive copying of non-compatible copyrighted material anywhere, not even in talk or user pages, not even temporarily.
 * So I guess I have to remove it all? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * So I guess I have to remove it all? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Farewell, Queen of Rock 'n' Roll
So long, Anna Mae... 'Cause I got my good side on (1972). Martinevans123 (talk) 21:40, 24 May 2023 (UTC) p.s. If You Can Hully Gully (I Can Hully Gully Too).... didn't know Tina could speak Greek, did you...
 * Dancin' was somethin' I never ever thought I could do,
 * But with the Hully Gully, I got the message right on cue;
 * I could shake my shoulders like a Honolulu woman do,
 * But when they changed the dances, I could never quite follow through...
 * (very tasty guitar solo, too...)

Blocked wow
Amaze to see you're playing the "blocked, not blocked" card. This place does need people like you, and possibly people like me, to make it work. I spent months while blocked telling this place how shit the quality control was. Nothing has changed, much, but sometimes someone says "it'd be good if had some oversight" or whatever. Anyhow. More power to you continuing while blocked. I did it for a bit, I'm not blocked but sick to the "eye teeth" of the yanks and one or two in particular who seem to want to run the place. They drove me away. Keep on keeping on. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:23, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, sometimes I feel sick as a dog. And yes, there are lots of folks who seem to want to run the place. Some disciplinary actions seem to be overly zealous and punitive. Many people seem to value "protection of the project" over the education of editors. But I'm hardly one to complain, am I. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:39, 27 May 2023 (UTC) p.s. some of my best friends are from the colonies, bless them. p.p.s. but don't forget....
 * Some of your best friends are yanks, but you wouldn't want your daughter to marry one. By the way, I'm half American and half human. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:44, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "My dear, I don't care what she does, so long as she doesn't do it in the street and frighten the horses" Martinevans123 (talk) 08:34, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * And now you're "On Vacation", Rambler?? You seem to be missing all the fun! Sing-along now, y'all! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Dolce Vita (expended).ogg
Thanks for uploading File:Dolce Vita (expended).ogg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 02:57, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello, B-bot. How lovely of you to drop by! Nice to see one of my Wiki bezzies again. Blimey, that took a while.... since September 2021? A great Euro-pop song, but I think we can all agree a pretty dire video. But I'm sorry I removed that sample, as the extended disco mix version is really quite good. "Nobody else than you.... Minimoog, OB-8, ARP Odyssey and Oberheim DMX!!" Martinevans123 (talk) 09:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

June songs
I like today's Main page, and here's why ;) -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:07, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. Could I possibly ask you to archive from "Whatfield" to "Douglas Gretzler" inclusive? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:38, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Last weekend was nice, class reunion a funny number of years after completing school, and the lovely park where I spent many Sundays as a child. Today's story is quite dramatic, there's a yt trailer to the hook. - Will archive after this round. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:06, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I archived wrongly, but will fix later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:33, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Gerda. No worries, it's fine as it is. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your patience ;) - 11 June or: Music not only by Bach --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:20, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links, Gerda. Wow, the oldest playable organ in Germany? How amazing. A wonderful (and huge) series by Pachelbel. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Got hold of a tenor sax about 18 months ago and I can play it well enough now to play along to some of Van Der Graaf Generator's back catalogue, though playing it and the alto sax simultaneously isn't quite in my arsenal just yet. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Jörg Widmann is 50, and I began Stockholm pics. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:25, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Many happy returns, Jörg!! What a very singular treat. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:31, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Today's story is about a singer whom I saw twice, not Wagner and Strauss, but Bach and Weill, and guess what, obits show her in the premiere of Widmann's opera! - more vacation pics! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:15, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Today, the story is ten years old, the Main page had three great people who recently died, and I invite you to look at two videos around concerts I heard, in the short one actually seen in the background. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:40, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Today: a woman caught by the iron curtain (improved with SusunW and GRuban), yesterday: the Mass in B minor, heard in concert then, three musical videos are out, and vacation pics. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:05, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thank for the links, Gerda. Great videos. Could I possibly ask you to archive for me, from September music to Not on main page? Thankyou so much. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:06, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
 * done - fine short video at the bottom of the enchanting Diana Tishchenko (+ a pic I took) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

RIP BoJo's political career?
Poor BoJo: boo-hoo. Still, at least we'll get those "40 new hospitals" with all the Brexit savings...(?) "Boris Johnson’s resignation statement – what he really meant"  Martinevans123 (talk) 11:59, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yay, at last!... a real peerage!!. Dame Ugli Patel (talk) 11:59, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Emma Vernon and war grave
Hello again Ovinus. I do hope you are well. You may remember that you removed this, on 19 September 2022, with the edit summary "rm presumptive copyvio see Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations/20220720". The paragraph on Emma Vernon and the war grave was this:
 * "In the churchyard, at the edge of the woodland to the north, is the grave of Emma Vernon (1754–1818), who inherited the Hanbury Estate. The churchyard also contains a war grave of a Royal Corps of Signals soldier of World War II. "

The original text in the church leaflet is this:
 * "Heiress Emma Vernon was a colourful character who died in 1818 and shares a memorial with her parents. She is laid to rest in the churchyard on the edge of woodland to the North, a location which held a special place in her heart."

The original text from the CWGC website is this:
 * SIGNALMAN HUBERT LEONARD PETFORD
 * Service Number: 14397788
 * Regiment & Unit/Ship: Royal Corps of Signals
 * Date of Death: Died 01 January 1945
 * Age 23 years old
 * Buried or commemorated at: HANBURY (ST. MARY) CHURCHYARD
 * S.W. part of churchyard.
 * United Kingdom

I wonder do you have any further comment on this? On second thoughts, I guess I could have omitted the words "at the edge of the woodland to the north" as unnecessary detail and because Wikipedia is not meant to be a tour guide. I suppose that if any visitor to the church really wanted to locate the grave of Emma Vernon they might be able to invest, as I did, the 50p in purchase of the four-page leaflet and thus contribute to that particular church revenue stream. Unsurprisingly the leaflet does not bear any author's name, nor any copyright marking, but is dated April 2011 and gives the address of the church website: www.hanbury church.webs.com. The current website does not seem to have any details on architecture or history. Of course, since the leaflet was published, the woodland to the north of the church may have been removed. I'm afraid I don't get down to Hanbury very often any more. Many thanks for your help anyway.

Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I've restored it; thank you. I think what you wrote is okay. If you get the leaflet you can email me and I'll go through it. Ovinus (talk) 23:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Ovinus. That's very good of you. I've had the leaflet all along. I will be pleased to email you a copy. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * p.s. I am intrigued by the image added here by DeFacto. I wonder if he has any explanatory information about it that could be added to the text. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:12, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Martin, sorry, I don't know any more about the toposcope. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:17, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah well, never mind. It's not mentioned in my leaflet. Perhaps someone else can find something. There is a tiny bit here. Thanks for your reply anyway, DeFacto. Hope you are well. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ovinus I emailed you images of the leaflet on 3 May. Thanks so much. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Wall panelling
I had added this:
 * "Some of the wall panelling in the north aisle, and the boxing in the ringing chamber probably re-used woodwork from the 17th century pews."

The original leaflet text is this:
 * "Part of the wall panelling of the north aisle and the boxing in the ringing chamber seems to have been done with older woodwork, probably retrieved from the seventeenth century pews."

I can offer this re-write:
 * "The boxing in the ringing chamber and some of the north aisle panelling probably re-used woodwork from the 17th-century pews."

Do you think that is an acceptable improvement? Or how else do you think might it be rendered? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, that works as a clean paraphrase. what do you think? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Other fittings
I had added this:
 * "Other fittings include a Last Supper reredos in alabaster, and cast iron altar rails and parcloses. The Vernon Chapel has a 17th-century oak altar table from St Helen's, Worcester. In the north transept is an elaborately painted organ case housing a Nicholson two-manual instrument, built in about 1860, with a broader specification than is common for nearby Nicholson parish church instruments of similar age. The nave has a 19th-century font, an elegant late 18th-century west gallery and some 17th-century panelling. The box pews, which were installed in 1872, are mostly now reduced in height – only those of the Bearcroft family in the north aisle and the Vernon family servants in the south aisle, retain their original height.

The original leaflet text has this:
 * "Many beautiful memorial tablets commemorate the Bearcrofts, another important family, who inhabited the enormous timber framed mansion known as Mere Hall. The original position of their family pew is defined by the new floor tiles to the south of the chancel step, and precious guilt edged, leather bound prayer books were stored within the pew are a fond reminder of centuries of worship. ... The nineteenths century reredos of the Last Supper is alabaster. ... The North aisle contains the original artist's models for the great reredos of Liverpool Cathedral made by Walter Gilbert, and Louis Weingartner one of his craftsmen."

But the listing text here (which I was advised was not under copyright), is this:
 * "Other fittings include a Last Supper reredos and cast-iron altar rails and parcloses. The Vernon Chapel has a C17 oak altar table from St Helen's, Worcester, and in the north transept is an elaborately painted organ case. The nave has a C19 font, late C18 box pews now reduced in height, an elegant late C18 west gallery and some C17 panelling. In the north aisle are the original artist's models of the Nativity and Resurrection panels for the reredos of Liverpool Cathedral and in the south aisle is an early C16 relief and, the parish chest. In the tower is a late C18 bread dole cupboard and more C17 panelling.

I can offer this re-write:
 * "In the Vernon Chapel there is an oak altar table, dating from the 17th-century, from St Helen's church in Worcester. In the north transept is an organ case which is painted elaborately. In the nave is some 17th-century panelling, as well as a late 18th-century west gallery and box pews, and a 19th-century font. Other fittings include a Last Supper reredos in alabaster, and cast iron altar rails and parcloses.

Do you think that is an acceptable improvement? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:03, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Martin - I think this is a very helpful example of just how challenging it can be to write about architecture, particularly when technical terminology is used, and how easy it is to slip into close paraphrasing. Here, you have altar table/reredos/transept/organ case/box pews/Last Supper/font/altar rails/parcloses. I've emboldened those sections where I think we might be sailing a little close to the wind, and then made a suggestion for an alternative, using your rewording wherever I can. I've dropped "parclose", but left the link, as I think it's just too obscure for the general reader.


 * "In the Vernon Chapel the altar table, made of oak and dating from the 1600s, is an import from the Church of St Helen at Worcester. In the north transept, the organ case is ornately decorated and the reredos, carved in alabaster, depicts the Last Supper. In the nave is some 17th-century panelling, as well as a late 18th-century west gallery and box pews, and a 19th-century font. There are also altar rails fashioned from cast iron and a chancel screen."


 * My reading is that you need to try to liberate yourself from the constraints of the sources a bit, and make a conscious effort to alter what can be altered. So, you can't change reredos, or organ, coz that is what they are, but you can change "painted elaborately". I've used "ornately decorated". And you can just drop elements of opinion, for example the "elegant" west gallery. What I try, if I've got say three sources, guidebook/Pevsner/Historic England listing, is to read them all 2/3 times, jotting down the key points, but not the actual words used, and overlaps. Then, put all the sources aside and use your notes to do a write-up in your own words. Then check it back against the originals to see that all key points are covered, but that there is not too close paraphrasing with the original sources. I hope this is helpful. KJP1 (talk) 10:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, KJP1, for taking the time to do that. I'm pretty sure that version could never be described as even remotely infringing copyright (regardless of its score on some of the tools like Earwig). I was wondering if you had a rationale for not linking certain of the words that I originally had. For example the word reredos (which, as you say, we are "stuck with") might be the sort of word that some readers might be unfamiliar with? I'm also surprised that you dropped the word parcloses, which might offer an easy education for some non-specialist readers. But many thanks again. I will try and adopt your approach on another example. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, you're quite right about the links. They should be there, I just didn't bother to put them all in. Parclose is interesting. Personally, I think screen with a link is most helpful, as readers will likely understand "screen", which it is, but probably won't get "parclose". But I'm fine either way. KJP1 (talk) 08:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Other fittings (2)
I had added this:
 * "In the north aisle are the original artist's models of the Nativity and Resurrection panels for the reredos of Liverpool Cathedral, by Walter Gilbert, founder of the Bromsgrove Guild, and Louis Weingartner one of his craftsmen. In the south aisle is an early 16th-century relief and the parish chest. In the tower is a late 18th-century bread dole cupboard and more 17th-century panelling. The musicians' gallery at the west end bears the Royal Coat of Arms of Elizabeth II, carved in 1953 by Celestino Pancheri of the Bromsgrove Guild. The elegant baroque chandelier was gifted by Thomas Parkes in 1795. "

I can offer this re-write:
 * "The church has a baroque chandelier, presented by Thomas Parkes in 1795. In the north aisle are models by Walter Gilbert, founder of the Bromsgrove Guild, and one of his craftsmen Louis Weingartner; the models are of the Nativity and Resurrection panels for the reredos of Liverpool Cathedral. In the south aisle is an early 16th-century relief and also the parish chest. In the tower there is a late 18th-century bread dole cupboard and more 17th-century panelling. At the west end of the church is a musicians' gallery bearing the Royal Coat of Arms of Elizabeth II, carved in 1953 by Celestino Pancheri, who was also of the Bromsgrove Guild. "
 * I had considered linking parish chest to Vestry, as that's the current redirect, or possibly to Vestry. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:32, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

July music
My story today pictures a friend whose birthday is today ;) - we listened to music she helped publishing - at a fancy place (which looked different when Bach played there). -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:01, 6 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah thank you, Gerda. Here's some Carl Friedrich Abel from Czech viola da gamba virtuoso Petr Wagner, from 2008, who sadly died in 2019: Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
 * In 2016 he recorded The Drexel Manuscript for Naxos: . Martinevans123 (talk) 20:38, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! - Finally: June pictures updated, with three great RMF concerts! - She played for us at her party (Saturday), on four instruments including baryton, with family members (granddaughters!) and colleagues, from Renaissance to Haydn. - My story today is very personal: the DYK appeared on Wikipedia's 15th birthday, and describes a concert I sang. I was requested to translate the bio into German for a memorial concert ... - see background, and we talked about life and death. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:46, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's very nice, Gerda. "I can see by what you carry that you come from Baryton"?  Martinevans123 (talk) 16:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC) p.s. my Wikipedia editing career

Talking of sweet music, just how long is this endless ban supposed to last? Let's drag Martin back on board and get him back to work swabbing the deck or something (if he can cook Indian food, then Wikipedia's cook would be open). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:49, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. After that who cares? He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!" ― Billy Connolly. But thank you, Randy. It'll be exactly one year next Tuesday.... Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've probably met people who've walked a mile in someone's shoes (or rather chased a mile by barefoot husbands). Okay, I for one (or two) would ask administrators to lift the ban on Martinevans123 - but not until Tuesday when the year is up just to round out a good story to tell his pursuers. Will follow up then, but will celebrate the "Year without a Martin" with a cake and shoes. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:34, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I asked before ... - I think it would be best if you, Martin, write something about now understanding copyright better, and - under the observation by friends and enemies - would no longer pose a danger to the integrity of Wikipedia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "A wise man told his followers, "There are two things in life that matter above all else: integrity, if you've made a promise, you carry it out, even if it bankrupts you, cripples you, or kills you. The other thing is common sense, like not making that promise in the first place."" Martinevans123 (talk) 08:49, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say Martin doesn't pose a danger to the integrity of Wikipedia, as one can only hope that his puns are ignored. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:59, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "I sleep rough under London Bridge and in my encounters with it, it has never lied and has always kept its word... Now that's what I call structural integrity." Martinevans123 (talk) 08:53, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I asked Diannaa. - Fireworks on the Rhine pictured on 1 July, but the real stars were sun and moon. I love today's story. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:16, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Good idea . Martin, please write an essay in 700 words or less (or more) about how copyright applies to Wikipedia editing. Grading will be on the curve. Any cheating will be non-seriously monitored by those who-shall-not-be-named. Pencil, pen, or stick in sand are fine. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * What? No Welsh slate? But thanks for the advice. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:55, 16 July 2023 (UTC) I'll just send round one of those scraper bot things...
 * On today's Main page, you can find a cantata that Bach first performed 300 years ago, and an iconic saxophonist from East Germany. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "Mmmmmmm.... nice!" Here's Petrowsky and pals from the 2006 film The Lives of Others (German: "Das Leben der Anderen"). Very conventional for him... sounds a bit like those guys! But really swings. This longer performance is also wonderful and reminds me a lot of Keith Tippett's Centipede. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:47, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for the links, Gerda. And well done for all your work improving his article. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:49, 19 July 2023 (UTC) no en:wiki article yet, I see, for de:Dieter Glawischni...
 * Okay, Welsh slate if you prefer, but after a year in exile, happily eating swamp bugs, dumpster cucumbers, and salads made from morning dew and fungus, let's get you back into the swing of things. A good write up of your understanding of copyright and Wikipedia sounds like a good next step per 's link above. Please lock yourself into a soundproof room, put on that rare repeating tape of a thousand fingernails scratching 999 blackboards (two had to share), and give the kids in the bleachers what they want (you back roaming the hallowed or hollowed halls and grounds of Wikipedia again). Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:31, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "eating swamp bugs, dumpster cucumbers, and salads made from morning dew and fungus" Sounds like something the bears enjoy up here. We do collect the morning dew in rain catchers and even utilize lichen as a food source. I look forward to hopefully seeing Martin on the project again, puns and all. -- A Rose Wolf  16:05, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, up here in the Welsh backwoods cabin, it's not all fine cuisine, you know. But thank you Randy and ARoseWolf, it's nice to know that at least two other editors want me back. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:35, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You can count me as number three on that list. By the way, I didn't know until now that one could put a British Rail between two pieces of bread to make a sandwich. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Aye, aye Cap'n Tryp. And now for a little song entitled: "He looked so good in his fishnets, he could always make a sandwich tern." Martinevans123 (talk) 22:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

While today's DYK highlights Santiago on his day, I did my modest share with my story today, describing what I just experienced, pictured. I began the article of the woman in green. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Today Jahrhundertring written in defiance 10 years ago, and I'm listening to Götterdämmerung from the Bayreuth Festival (pictured), - the image (of a woman who can't believe what she has to see) features also on the article talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

August music
Today's music is played by my brother's orchestra, conducted by two very young men on their way up, - the picture was taken shortly after the invasion of Ukraine began, - more detail on my talk. Images reached the day of the Tenebrae concert mentioned in July. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:38, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Today, it's time to write a bit about Welsh popular culture - Template:Did you know nominations/Pont Abraham Services. Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that! - My story today - a first - isn't about an article by me, but one I reviewed for DYK, see here. I like all: topic, "hook", connected article (a GA on its way towards FA), image and the music "in the background". I just returned from a weekend of weddings, so also like the spirit ;) - Pics to come, I promise one cake, the other was too large! Good music, and better even in the concert ending the second day, - Goldberg Variations theme for an encore, after Dohnányi Serenade. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Hope you enjoyed! I find Dohnányi so very complicated. But ah, yes. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Again not by me: today's story - with the triumph of music over military - is uplifting! - No cake yet, but a butterfly and open-air opera. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Now: picture of heart-shaped cake(s) uploaded! - Today's story is about a tenor, - why his roles are not linked on the Main page remains a mystery to me. Today is also the birthday of the Bayreuth Festival. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * One more day uploaded, with another wedding cake - I couldn't resist. Today's story is about the Inkpot Madonna who returned to "her place" 9 years ago, and also has aspects of early learning, remember? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Today is the anniversary of the premiere of Götterdämmerung. Berit Lindholm sang its final scene in concert at the Royal Festival Hall in London, only four years after her stage debut in a Mozart opera in Stockholm. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:29, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for the links, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * keep reading, the soprano's article grew overnight - now GA ;) - Today is Gwendolyn Killebrew's birthday, - pictured: a spider and sweet food --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This too shall pass. - Ten years ago on 28 August, I heard a symphony, with a heavy heart because of the pending decision in WP:ARBINFOBOX, and not worried about my future here but Andy's. - It passed, and I could write the DYK about calling to dance, not battle, and Andy could write the DYK mentioning about peace and reconciliation, - look. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:26, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. It's not always nice to be crammed into a box. But yes, that's true. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:21, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear Gerda, I wonder could I possibly ask you to archive for me, from "October music" to "Death of Harry Dunn"? Thank you ever so much for all your continued and unfailing help. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Tom Jones has died
Yes indeed, prompting a "hold the front page" rush at Tom Jones (singer). It's not unusual for people to get things wrong if they haven't read the sourcing properly. It was this Tom Jones.  ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 07:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot, Ian, for making at least one of Martin's talk page watchers think for a moment that Tom Jones had died. I was just mentally preparing myself for the battle at ITN over whether he should get a blurb. Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:39, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Reinstatement statement
I've read all this talk page and understood some of it. Where's the page where I !vote Support unblocking Martinevans123, then? Just asking.  Tony Holkham   (Talk)  22:24, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * My view is we need to finish off Martin's Contributor copyright investigation here, then make a decision. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  20:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I do understand the scale of the problem,, but I instinctively feel that Martin would be able to make a significant contribution to clearing it up, if he agreed and if he was given the opportunity. Being "imprisoned" in one's talk page does not seem to me to be very helpful, for him, or for WP, maybe for years? In the meantime, I will see what I can do to help when I have understood the instructions.  Tony Holkham   (Talk)  21:35, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that if we wait for the CCI process to be completed, we will all be very, very old, long before that happens. I'm highly sympathetic to the argument that an unblocked Martin would actually help move the process along. But we have to deal with reality, in terms of how the community would react to an appeal. For now, the best thing to do is to build momentum for an eventual successful appeal. That doesn't mean a page where people !vote support, but expressions of support are certainly welcome, in my opinion. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:48, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * . In my opinion Martin could substantially improve his chances of being unblocked by working on his CCI, and doesn't need to be unblocked to do so. All he needs to do is go through the articles one by one, listing for each – here on this page – any content that he copied, and where from (and if he's not sure, saying so). This would make it much easier for others to work through the many remaining pages of the CCI. What say you, Martin? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * He's been doing just that, repeatedly. Which is something we don't often see from banned users. But, yes, the more he would do it, the better, in terms of the success of an eventual appeal. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:00, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Happy to give that a try if it would help. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:11, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes. However, this page would quickly become unmanageable. Is it practical to have a separate page set up for the purpose?  Tony Holkham   (Talk)  22:01, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Martin wouldn't be able to edit it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Not directly, no. But it would leave this page free for chat, and the dedicated page for the specific stuff.  Tony Holkham   (Talk)  22:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I certainly could be wrong, but I have the sneaking suspicion that as long as Martin can edit User_talk:Martinevans123, he can also edit User_talk:Martinevans123/CCI1 etc. Hey, try clicking that link and see whether you can create the page. <b style="color:red;">E</b><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b> 06:35, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's an idea. I probably could create that. Only 3,418 pages left to check now. But if any editor checks a CCI item and finds it's a copyright violation, I think it may their responsibility to fix it immediately – and not ask an indef blocked editor, who has yet to demonstrate their competence, to do it? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly certain that blocked users cannot create any subpages. That's why they have to get other people to archive their talk page for them. Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for saying that, because that's what I thought, too. But EEng is never wrong – just ask him! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps EEng could create it for me? And then he could critique all my proposed re-writes of the pages where copy-vio has been determined and removed, and judge my competence accordingly. The current hit rate is about 16.05%. So of the remaining 3,418 pages about 549 are likely to be deemed to have contained copy-vio. Although in some cases, the offending material might have already been removed or re-written in the intervening years... Yes, I know EEng is never wrong. Which would be a great help in this case. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The current hit rate is about 16.12%. So of the remaining 3,405 pages about 549 are likely to be deemed to have contained copy-vio. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think consideration of an unblock ought to be linked to completion of the CCI. More importantly, I don't think User: Diannaa holds that view either, but they'll correct me if I've misunderstood them. I would say the key points for consideration are: Martin demonstrating his understanding of why copyright is critical; his understanding how his prior editing infringed our CV policies; and his showing the necessary competence and commitment to ensure that such infringements don't recur. KJP1 (talk) 06:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks KJP1. Copyright is critical. As it says on this page: "According to World Intellectual Property Organisation, copyright protects two types of rights. Economic rights allow right owners to derive financial reward from the use of their work. Moral rights allow authors and creators to take certain actions to preserve and protect their link with their work. " (World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO), 20 April 2019). I might consider an appeal. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:58, 26 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "My My, Hey Hey". Thank you so much, Diannaa. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:38, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Resumption presumption
I'm so pleased. I know there's a mountain of work to do, but so glad you are able to take part. Best, Tony.  Tony Holkham   (Talk)  15:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Tony. I'd settle for a few molehills. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * 🥳 Welcome back, and let's be careful out there.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 16:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ian. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:43, 2 September 2023 (UTC) (... theme features Larry Carlton on guitar)


 * Martin, I am very, very happy to see this, and all the more because you made a successful appeal on your own. KJP1 and I have had some discussions about how we might help you, and I'll admit that I haven't done as much as I would have liked to have done (long story for why, no need to go into it here), but I'm all the more glad that you took the initiative without me needing to do more. Good job, and welcome back! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you Trypto, for all your kind support and good humour. I do hope you are well. I know KJP1 has been very busy in "IRL". (not that one) Martinevans123 (talk) 21:38, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Glad to see you unblocked, Martin. Bishonen &#124; tålk 22:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC).
 * Thanks so much, Bish. 😊 Martinevans123 (talk) 08:48, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I will move to block you in hopes of reversing this aberration whenever I hear of you using humor to communicate with your fellow Wikipedians, to whom humor is the devil's plaything. With God as my witless this shall not stand. Randy Kryn (talk) 09:22, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you Randy, for those kind words of reassurance. Great to see you're still down with the kids. Marty"Coolio"Evans123 (talk) 11:28, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Very pleased to see this - welcome back! Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:42, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Pawnking. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:55, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You've been missed outside your room. It's a happy September! ---Sluzzelin talk  23:46, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much, Sluzzelin. 😄 It's even longer since July. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC) (: Ute Lemper with Jürgen Knieper)
 * You're right. I can't even read block logs, plus it did seem longer. But then July would not have rhymed with September or December ... I hadn't been familiar with the Ute Lemper version, and enjoyed it, thanks! Yet my personal favorite remains track 8 on Sarah Vaughan (1955), not least because of Clifford Brown's solo (YouTube's semi-translucent grey retention graph seems to agree – this is the most revisited part of the song). Peace, and apologies for making your sabbatical sound shorter than it was! ---Sluzzelin  talk  22:21, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I was grateful for the rest. Wow, absolutely stunning; Paul Quinichette's tenor and Herbie Mann' flute also wonderful on that one. Ella's version, from Ella Fitzgerald Sings Songs from the Soundtrack of "Let No Man Write My Epitaph", also great. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:49, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That was a very sincere and persuasive unblock request. Welcome back, Martin. Cullen328 (talk) 20:14, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you Cullen328. Your message means a lot. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Don't know why missed this earlier. I certainly missed you. <b style="color:red;">E</b><b style="color:blue;">Eng</b> 09:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Awwwww. You know what they say, "absinthe makes the heart go blonder" and all that. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oh excellent! Lovely to have you back. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much, Yngvadottir. That's very nice of you. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

September music
Our festival's last concert was most moving and inspiring, and there are seconds of it - plus glimpses of an interview with the conductor, age 96 - in this tv summary. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra with Bruckner's 7th must have been wonderful. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * They played the premiere so must know it best ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Haha. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Tonight it's Mozart's Requiem in D minor (interspersed with many other Mozart masterpieces) with Sandrine Piau, Beth Taylor, Laurence Kilsby and Alex Rosen, cond. Raphaël Pichon. Wonderful. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:26, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * And tonight (on television) his Great Mass in C minor, with the Dunedin Consort, led by John Butt, featuring Nardus Williams, Lucy Crowe, Jess Dandy, Benjamin Hulett and Robert Davies. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:10, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds great! - Now pics around that memorable concert mentioned first, and the story of Walter Arlen, - proud that I survived the decision in WP:ARBINFOBOX for 10 years, standing and singing --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Was wonderful and also a highlights programme last night on the box, ending with an extract of Finlandia from the first night. Haha, thanks for the trip down infobox memory lane. Hillbilly's links (almost as inane as my own) brought it all back. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Today's story is about a great pianist with an unusual career, taking off when he was 50. It's the wedding anniversary of Clara and Robert Schumann, but I was too late with our gift. Just for fun: when do you think did Mrs. and Mr. Schumann get their infoboxes, and by whom? (The answer can be found here, but please think first.) - Talk:Jean Sibelius (still right on top!) was particularly acid, but that too passed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:04, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * and then a soprano who sang an opera as her first that I heard as my first --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. Yes, they had to wait a fair while, didn't they, and not for a box! She does look great now, though, with or without all those brine shrimp. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * They could have avoided a legal battle had they waited one day longer ;) - For infoboxes, our articles didn't have to wait, and no argument, - if only it was always like they show is possible ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * She was undoubtedly a genius. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Today I remember Raymond Arritt, who still helps me, five years after he died, per what he said in my darkest time on Wikipedia (placed in my edit-notice as a reminder), and by teh rulez. - Latest pics from a weekend in Berlin (one more day to come, with the soprano from Russia singing in the house under the Ukrainian flag). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * By all accounts a very decent guy. And very good rules. Sounds interesting! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Choose your battles ;) - More detail about the opera on my talk, even yt (from 2018 when she performed in the premiere of Harry Kupfer's version alongside Plácido Domingo). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * What a very powerful production that 2018 looks! Quite amazing. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes! My story today is The Company of Heaven ("company" with a double meaning, but angelic company in the end). - It's a week with concert or opera every night! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. That one sounds very shouty. Your week sounds busy! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2023 (UTC) "in violent times, you shouldn't have to sell your soul..."
 * No. 9 - a cappella, difficult - is quite soothing. We sang it (all) in 2001. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:23, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. Edward Higginbottom (2013) on Novum: . Martinevans123 (talk) 17:47, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

The Welcome Back Barnster

 * Cheers and that, "Swanny"... safe bro: Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

The morning just keeps getting better
Glad to see you are back to editing. You've been missed. Breathe the free air again, my friend. Now get to work! LOL BTW, don't let your new found celebrity status go to your head, Tryp may get jealous. I'm going to do my best impersonation of a flying fish and glide away. Enjoy!!! -- A Rose Wolf  14:37, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, A Rose  Wolf  for all your help and support. I'll be gliding off to the dark side of the CCI? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:20, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You just had to mention one of my favorite bands of all-time. I was born in the wrong era. I'm definitely an Aquarian hippie with a Rock-n-Roll Soul. I put butterfly wings on my cat, dyed a portion of my hair purple and used glitter makeup for that extra sparkle. -- A Rose Wolf  14:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * If it's one of your favourite bands of all time, you could maybe have a look at getting Pink Floyd discography to good topic status - most of the album articles are already at GA or above, and a few key songs like Echoes are at GA too. Also see this. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  08:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I might have to ask for Martin to be blocked for getting involved in porn. (joke) --Tryptofish (talk) 17:40, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * We'll have none of your scholarly porn jokes here, thank you very much, Mr so-called-Porkfish. Just ask Porn King III. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You do know, don't you, that the porkfish is also a sweetlips? (What the bleep is a "paragrate grunt"?) But yes, I once tried to be in porn, but I was only able to be a character actor. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I always try and wear a hoodie. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 6 September 2023 (UTC) (Sounds like a move in WWE? A bit like a burger, but with more grated parrot) ... oooh, you big sweetie!
 * Yes, a hoodie is always a good idea; one doesn't want to get a virus online, after all. Might be a move at the WMF, now that I think of it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "Lol". Sadly the British museum closed in 2005. And not the German tableware manufacturer, I'm guessing. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:03, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Talk about perfect timing. Mr.PorkFish, today's DYK on the main page features the Phallichthys and an interesting fact. Sounds like it would definitely require a bigger hoodie. -- A Rose  Wolf  15:33, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ha! As soon as I read the DYK, I knew it had to be one of those poeciliids, what with their gonopodia! I see from the DYK discussion that the photo is of a "male merry widow", which makes it even wilder. No wonder they are also called livebearers. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ahoy, me merry widow hearties!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It's on the main page today, with a hook saying that Merry Widows like soft bottoms. Someone sure knows how to make mud sound sexy. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Had a nice surprise this morning logging in, seeing Martin had thanked me for a few edits on his CCI. I thought, "hmm, blocked editors can't do that, he must be unblocked". And lo and behold, he has been! Excellent stuff. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  08:12, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks Threesie, for the full frontals and the sexy side-on group shot.
 * Q: What does a German Hammond organist do in his life's most tender moments?
 * A: He puts his Leslie on "slow".
 * Rickard "Groove" Homes 123 Klaus Wunder Licks 123 (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2023 (UTC) (both hands, mind you...)
 * Cheeky!! Full frontals reminds me of the time I went to bathe in the creek and the huskies decided my clothes made a great rope for tug of war. Needless to say there I am running down the trail and across the field back to the house, pausing by each building on the homestead long enough to make sure no two-legged or four-legged creatures were around. I made it all the way to house undetected, somewhat remarkably considering the trail of some odd 15 huskies following me, when Jack, family friend, our dog trainer and a former wilderness guide up here came out of the smoke house with with a rack of fish so I bound around the corner to avoid being seen and ran straight into our bush pilot, he goes by Francisco, who was having a conversation with my daughter's father, who was up on the porch with my daughter. For his part he had just finished delivering some parts we were waiting on and had turned to walk away when the collision happened, full frontal. I was going just about as fast as I could to avoid Jack, which was hard enough with the canine marching band announcing my presence. Poor Francisco was so embarrassed. I take extra clothes with me now and put them where the huskies cant get them. -- A Rose  Wolf  18:36, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Haha. Dear Rose Wolf, your life sounds remarkably fun! 😄 Martinevans123 (talk) 21:57, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Now I want to move to Alaska. This doesn't come close, but a friend of mine attended a big event honoring good students. He was wearing formal wear, with a top hat and suspenders, and was in a conspicuous position on stage. There was a moment when everyone stood up and applauded the students. When he stood, his suspenders broke, and his pants fell down. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ha. Ah yes, you mean braces. As you must know, in the UK suspenders mean something else Martinevans123 (talk) 08:47, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , when are you moving? lol I'll give you a the gran tour. -- A Rose Wolf  12:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Now that I've read what you said about things being primitive, um, um... --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I did say that some things are primitive. I think you would still enjoy it.-- A Rose Wolf  20:19, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Well the only comparable story I have is when I was a youngster, I lived in a house with two friends, which had a bathroom retrofitted to the back. We also put locks on the doors after a burglary in the hope it helped. Anyway, I was going into work late and came out of the bathroom to find my housemate had helpfully locked the door to my room on the assumption I’d gone to work, leaving the keys in there, and then went to work himself. So I managed to open the bathroom window, crawl through it and sat in the garden wearing a towel for a few hours. I believe the exact phrase I used when he got back was “you’re a wally!” <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:34, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , parts of it are rather primitive. Technology has slowly creeped in. When I lived in Haines I had most of the modern amenities. Haines is about like the typical frontier or small town. I didn't need a phone so I never had one. When we moved up here everything is done by satellite. We do have a radio tower to communicate with the NPS. More to monitor for wildfires and there is a Ranger Station in Bettles. There is an outpost just inside the Preserve with a trail the runs along the border with our land. It connects with a series of trails that lead to our airstrip and the one in Wiseman. Ours is rarely used. The preferred mode of flight in and out is float plane but we do have a bush plane. I could tell some stories. -- A Rose Wolf  16:02, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I bet you could! How amazing, A Rose  Wolf . Am guessing that's the National Park Service. Wildfires have been so widespread across the globe this year (although we probably don't get to hear about the biggest ones in Russia and China?) You must have seen many changes. Greta's been right all along. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:24, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, the thought of Baked Alaska becoming literally true really brings me up short. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:28, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah well, you know, "Nobody explained to Greta that the modern world is ocomplicated." The people of Africa deserve a few happy hours, just like us wealthy folks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:21, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * A real meeting of minds, if ever. Well I just love the rhythm of the clickety-clack. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Wish I could say it's truly an Alaskan dessert but it isn't. I'm sure there are some places that serve it as a novelty here. I hear it came from New Orleans. Been there for a few weeks once. That's for a story another time. lol I don't think there's enough books that could contain my stories. -- A Rose Wolf  20:05, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds much better than an Alaskan desert. I'd certainly buy a copy! 😄 Martinevans123 (talk) 20:16, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * We have those. I have pictures of me walking on the sand dunes in Kobuk Valley National Park barefoot. Alaska has every environment you could think of. -- A Rose  Wolf  20:37, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Cool. Was a No 2 in Canada! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Carew Castle
Thank you for your attention at Carew Castle, The4lines. I have re-added some text, together with a missing source. Could I possibly ask you to adjust this if you have any copyright violation concerns? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:07, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

A unique position
Nice to see you are back! You are now in a unique position to be able to share with and perhaps influence other editors who are at risk of a WP:COPYRIGHT-related sanction, probably even more so than warning verbiage from some admin, templated or not. This is a volunteer project, so you certainly don't have to, but it would be a great way of turning a past negative into a future positive, so I hope you'll consider it. In any event, I heartily welcome you back! Happy editing, Mathglot (talk) 08:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Many thanks so much, Mathglot. Your welcome back is much appreciated. Yes, of course. But I am now in the unique position of having a list of 3,402 articles where I may have been responsible for violations of copyright. So until these are all resolved in some way, I'm not sure I'm in a position to volunteer any sharing and influence to any other editors on that particular subject. Especially those who have never been indefinitely blocked. Who knows, some of those articles might even be on your watchlist... Nice idea though. 😊 "Bah, humbug, etc. etc." Martinevans123 (talk) 17:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, this an unexpectedly bright spot in my day! Welcome back: I'm so very glad to see you here, in full action. I see you have so much support already, but please do ask me if you'd ever like a second opinion or another pair of eyes run over anything, or ... or anything! I only wish I had something witty to link to, to mark the occasion. AukusRuckus (talk) 14:46, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi there Auckus!! Thanks so much. But no, only half throttle, I assure you. "sweeping the streets I used to own", etc. etc. I see, with a mixture is sadness and admiration, your continued battles with obvious socks in the Middle East. You must have a great deal more patience (and fortitude) than do I. Why not come and take a relaxing break, and hone your copyright compliance skills, at my little autumnal CCI? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:47, 14 September 2023 (UTC) "pillars of salt, pillars of sand", etc.
 * I see you already have. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "The reviewers describe the final chapter of the book as "unexpectedly beautiful" but note that it is full of lines taken from the works of writers Raymond Carver and James Joyce". Yikes. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, thought I'd celebrate by dipping my toes in the water and make a small contribution. It's easier than I thought. Being in the other hemisphere, however, I prefer to think of it as a warm-weather getaway; the beach shack, or bach, just needs a little spring clean, which I find quite relaxing, as it happens. AukusRuckus (talk) 01:17, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Very glad to see you relaxing. Thanks, a lot, Aukus. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:01, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Does Bach, Lot have a back lot? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Now, now. No need to look back. The future is bright, the future is rosy. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, It's a very balmy -1°C here. Definitely Summer beach weather. You should most certainly think of escaping on a tundra getaway.-- A Rose Wolf  12:00, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Goodness me. That is bracing. I'll probably just stick with Scunthorpe, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:21, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

okaerinasai!
お帰りなさい！Welcome back to your Wikipedia home Martin. I hope I am using this right. I probably am not. The copywrong block was made right. And when I say "right" I mean entirely removed. Where did it go? Maybe to the land of copyright. I am worse with these puns than you are. Anyway happy reading! Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 01:45, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! so much, Aasim, (or ありがとう! as Google translate reminds me...) You know what they say in Smith County, Kansas... ""Home, home on the rangeblock". I am very surprised that anyone might want to claim they were worse than me at these PUNishments. But thanks again. Owd Manji Ribber 123 (talk) 20:14, 29 September 2023 (UTC) oh, how we almost laughed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinevans123 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait... copy right, paste wrong.
 * That means I can control-C as much as possible, as long as I don't control-V. Control-V is playing with Jerry. But control-C is a right. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 01:22, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * And I should also say... go nihon go! Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 01:23, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, too much Control-V can be a real killer round here. (I'd say the original logo was more stylish. But yeah, why not!). Martinevans123 (talk) 19:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Did Leonardo's aerial screw qualify him for the Mile high club? (Sorry!) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Nah I think it probably qualifies him for a United Mileage Plus Explorer Card. He probably should explore his finances and maybe consider requesting a bailout from the government. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 19:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Deary me, Trypto, trust you to lower the tone. Want sex in the sky, do ya? sorry you can't. You're just the pits. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:19, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Martin, sorry about the tone. I didn't mean to be such a spitfire. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:12, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Since we're talking aviation, where would the mosquito be without da Vinci's screw? I've often wanted to test building an aircraft myself, even if only an ultralight. Something about soaring with eagles is always fascinating. Less so the Mile high club. Probably wouldn't work well in a one seater. If only it added to my miles. -- A Rose Wolf  13:06, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * What certainly will add to my miles is a cross country trip. But I also think that those miles are best spent on the ground. And we can get those miles fast. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 14:12, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * If you are ever up in Alaska, try coming in Summer. You can get more miles during the day. Of course, if, as Martin so eloquently put it, your goal is a different mile then winter may be best. Nothing like the ambiance of getting snowed in during those long nights with a fire roaring in the fireplace and piping hot bowl of on the wood stove to get those romantic feelings boiling over. -- A Rose  Wolf  16:05, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, Caribou. Some great tracks for the midnight sun. How 'bout some of Joni's lentil soup ... for the nights when the Northern lights perform... Martinevans123 (talk) 19:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I definitely would want to see some Northern Lights. But as we also know, we live, we love, we lie. The perfect song for a trip over the North Pole. Just don't fade away. And this is a spot-on streaming platform. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 14:02, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

In today's news
At least 51 people, including a six-year-old boy, attending a funeral wake, killed in a missile attack...
 * Oleh Synyehubov, Governor of Kharkiv Oblast: "It was the bloodiest crime committed by the Russians in the Kharkiv region since the start of the full-scale invasion. Three days, from October 6 to 8, will be declared days of mourning in the Kharkiv region."
 * Mr Putin: "No-one in the world in their right mind would use nuclear weapons against Russia". Martinevans123 (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

October music
My story today is sad but great. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:43, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Ah yes, Filharmonie Brno, I see. Looks a wonderful occasion. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:59, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It was in 2002, though, with a magnificent chorus from Biscay, but I missed both. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:06, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, 2002. Thanks, Gerda! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC) Orfeón Donostiarra looks very interesting. novel staging!
 * Oh yes! - A few more pics, and see my talk for what we sang today (I'm the woman in red), and what Tabea Zimmermann played (today's story on her birthday): I heard it, and it's on YouTube. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Suscepit Israel --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:10, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Bogna Bartosz (2010), Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra & Choir with Ton Koopman. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:10, 15 October 2023 (UTC)  p.s. their "Et misericordia" is also wonderful
 * ] but we did it with the women's voices of the choir --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:17, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks; I see that one has Julia Doyle and Hana Blažíková (sopranos) and Maarten Engeltjes (alto). I can imagine your version was wonderful. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:40, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you, and yes it was. - What a composition: that Protestant composer quoting the Gregorian chant in the oboe! - Did I tell you (probably yes) that out Idstein conductor once asked Blažíková to step in for the Mass in B minor, and she didn't say no? But her calendar said no, and we had Gabriela Eibenová fly in, as her DYK reports. And the Magnificat conductor (who flew in from the US, and her husband even sang in the choir) talked to her after the performance! Small world. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * more pics, and today's story is on a birthday, and the real DYK was already on that birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gerda. "Back in 2001, researchers from the University of Leicester published their ‘Moosic Study’, which found that dairy cows produce more milk when listening to relaxing classical tunes." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * User talk:Gerda Arendt keeps track of "my" moosic and memories, and just today I have a juxtaposition of music performed by the two church choirs in town, one I sang in and one where I listened, to music about love, evening and night. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * A lovely record there. Sorry to hear of the passing of Carla Bley. But life... goes on: Here with the wonderful Andy Sheppard and Steve Swallow. A real slow groove. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you, really goes on! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * it's only 6 minutes! 😂 Martinevans123 (talk) 07:10, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * heavenly 6 minutes - today, it's a place that inspired me, musings if you have time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * A Rose Wolf  so eloquent. Wholly agree! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Love it! Could you write that on my talk, please? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:59, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! A Romanian woman composer is today's topic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * And today it's about a couple - found the cute image only yesterday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:21, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * A French woman today with a small body and a great voice whose portrayal of a role with different aspects I enjoyed! And another interesting composer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, like another little songbird. Many thanks for the links, Gerda! Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought of Brian Bouldton today, and his ways to compromise. - I'm on vacation again, more pics to come, but too tired after church (pictured on my talk), hiking and paella. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, a very helpful person, greatly missed. Here's Percy Grainger playing his "Molly on the Shore" in 1937. A birthday gift for his mother. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC) ... and here's one in a sandwich by Green Fields of America.

Who knew?
that Tessie O'Shea was born on Plantagenet Street, Riverside, Cardiff, a rather dodgy boulevard on which I myself once lived. The things one learns on here. KJP1 (talk) 10:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
 * No 61, apparently. Perhaps even more dodgy in 1913? I guess she'd be two metric tonnes these days. I'll have you know that I once met Wyn Calvin and got his autograph! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC) How are you with banjolele these days?
 * p.s. feel free to have a rest while I try and catch up with your last 49 edits at the CCI! phew! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The Reckoning
Hi Martin, any thoughts on Talk:Jimmy_Savile being broadcast on the moment? I'm not even going to start listing the minor inaccuracies because it is a TV drama, but the two mentioned here need to be addressed somewhere.  ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 15:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Minor inaccuracies!? How very-luxury-tower-block-penthouse-dare you. Luckily I've not seen Episode 2 yet. Still shuddering from Episode 1. I'll have you know that this is wholesome family entertainment, carefully crafted by ITV so as not to overly self-embarrass the BBC. I don't recall that particular episode of Songs of Praise, but the Daily Express tells us that it was at Calder High School, for Christmas 1969, (and that he gave his £50 fee straight to cheridee)? I think Coogan has done an incredible job, with both voice and looks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Although The Reckoning is not as long as Barbenheimer, I can now boast that I have watched all four episodes on iPlayer. Steve Coogan's vocal impression of Savile is quite uncanny, close your eyes and you could be listening to the real thing. I do think, however, that The Reckoning lays it on with a trowel and contains a lot of historical hindsight designed to make Savile look as bad as possible. We can't write history backwards, which is pretty much what The Reckoning tries to do at all times.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 20:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)


 * "A week is a long time in Top of the Pops", as our Harold never said. And the rest is history written backwards. Yes, the voice is disturbingly accurate. Strong supporting cast, I thought, especially Gemma Jones as Agnes and Mark Lewis Jones as Hulligan. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

National Trust pilot 2
Hello! Thanks for your with the National Trust 2022 pilot. Based on that work, the National Trust is supporting a second pilot, and some information is here WP:GLAM/National Trust. All the best Lajmmoore (talk) 11:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the news, Lajmmoore. I'm big fan of the National Trust guidebooks. Too big a fan, some might say. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:28, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello
Hello old thing! How are you doing? I'm a bit Largely-Absent&trade; at the moment but was well chuffed, comme on dit, to see that you are back. Cheers, DBaK (talk) 13:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Ey Up Me Duck. Oui, naturellement, mon brave! ... back to wiki reality? Just for the glam, like. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC) p.s. I'm probably just fine, thanks.


 * I'm very glad (and relieved) to see you back. Happy day. Anna (talk) 21:08, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Dear Anna. Thank you so much. You are always so positive and polite. ... any excuse!! 😊 Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

November music
Hevenu shalom aleichem is my story today. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Possibly missed by some today, for his most significant achievement. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:11, 3 November 2023 (UTC) 'Cause out on the edge of darkness
 * I am quite proud that the hook - not by me, but 4meter4 who wrote the serious part of the article - mentioned that achievement. I had reason to look at our conversations about The Rite of Spring today, - interesting ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * A nice hook; he deserves to be remembered. We haven't seen User:Ruhrfisch around for a while. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

I added some images from Aachen, taken 21 Oct. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Gerda. Some beautiful images! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:12, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, more to come, but article writing and reviewing first, and hopefully resisting the temptation to argue on a noticeboard ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:34, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Now a few more from the trip. - My story today is about my song of defiance, - it was a great pleasure to hear it performed today! The line "Ich steh hier und singe" (I stand here and sing) is in the movement with the music pictured, which begins with "Trotz -- Trotz -- Trotz", sounding much tougher than "defiance" ;) - in this YouTube it's at 4:55. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:11, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Gerda. A great rendition. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree! - Want to help (refs, detail) with (Welsh) Ryland Davies? Same recording as my recent Isabelle Sals, you can plunder there ;) - I'll look at him tomorrow, just nominated today's. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:48, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What should I think of this? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks convincing. They certainly ought to know about him being "Professor of the “Alfredo Kraus” Fundación Ramón Areces Voice Chair at the Reina Sofía School of Music, where he had previously offered masterclasses." There's also this obituary which I have added as a source. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC) p.s. Blaenau Gwent was created only in 1974. In 1943 Cwm was still in Monmouthshire.
 * Can you perhaps add from it? And perhaps solve the riddle how he made his debut in Glyndebourne as Almaviva, when there's nothing of that in the Glyndebourne archives (that I just added), which see him in the chorus that year, and Rossini's work not once in his impressive singing there from 1965 to 2001? He needs more lead. I trust that we'll make him fit for the Main page, where I have Lea Ackermann right now, and a DYK and an OTD entry ;) - I couldn't avoid that notice board, first couldn't take misrepresentations any longer, secondly pinged. Such a waste of time. Whoever still "fight" infobox wars, missed some history. Bach and the Schumanns (on the Main page) all have an infobox, Clara even from 2012, - they really came to be the normal accepted thing to have. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a slight riddle. Perhaps we should add only material supported by more than one source? A image of Davies might be preferable to an infobox for such a short article, although we are unlikely to find one, I suspect. What is "the normal accepted thing to have" on Wikipedia is still a bit of a riddle for me, alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * We have several sources for that Almaviva because they copy from each other (and from Wikipedia), but I'm tempted to drop it as not in sync with the rest of the bio, - unless that was something like a student performance, outside the festival. He'll have an infobox, really no problem for opera singers (did you know that the recommendation "better without" was officially removed from the guidelines in 2019?), and I bet Storye book will find at least a fair-use pic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree it could be dropped. And I did not know that! ... so box away, I guess. I do hope Storye book can find one. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I will. - I looked again, and thanks for the parents, but the source given supports only his marriage. For ITN, everything must be sourced. I can't read the Times obit, - can you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, I see that was a simple explanation, the writer of his obit was the same person (last year) as now his. Happy to have found his! So nice stories, such as the cognac for Caballé, - I hope readers will get to it. Do you think the Times obit (that I can't see) is the same as in The Guardian? Anyway, only recordings missing, then I'll nominate. I'm always reluctant when I have someone "on" who will be pushed out by the next. We have a few days left, 12 Nov would be last day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Glad you found it! No, I can no longer read The Times. User:AirshipJungleman29 tells me there is a clever trick one can do with archive versions, but I'm not sure how that's done... It seems both Barry Millington in The Grauniad and whoever it is in The Times have used the same 2003 photo of Davies as Monostatos as their lead image. I think the lower b/w image of Davies during a rehearsal at Leeds Town Hall in the 1970s, by Jeremy Fletcher/Redferns, is particularly good. Yes, it's somehat difficult to ever know how an RD entry will last at ITN! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The Guardian is fine, no need for anything else, - I just wondered. "somehat" is a lovely word! The shortest RD was 5 hours (not mine or I'd have protested), the longest I remember the recent Zdeněk Mácal, a full week. Lea Ackermann has two days now, and I wish her more ;) - She has attracted 10k+ readers yesterday! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I invented that one specially for the occasion. I'm so glad, Gerda, that someone round here knows the Queen's English. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:44, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm so glad someone knows the language to expand the sad cy stub ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks to Deb, it's a start. My Welsh is much worse than my English. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:10, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I admit I have to use the translation function to help me along. But I'm better than I used to be. Frankly, I couldn't converse in Welsh with any fluency if it hadn't been for cy helping me along. Why don't we see you there, Martin? Deb (talk) 08:50, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Too busy checking hundreds of English edits for possible copyright violation, for my sins. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not work, it's just practice (makes perfect). -- A Rose Wolf  12:02, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Your Day! A day to remember the victims of wars, and for me St. Martin's day, matched as short as I could in a 2010 DYK remembered, - so basically about sharing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:08, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

I began another day of vacation pics, with the deepest blue of the sea ;) - we celebrate the birthday of a friend who wrote quite a book about the compositions of a man who will turn 300 soon. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I knew very little about Carl Friedrich Abel. Thanks for the link. Here's Petr Wagner with an arpeggio for solo viola da gamba in 2008. Quite breathtaking playing. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC) wonderful sound recording
 * Thank you! - Next day begun --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:56, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
 * ... and completed - today my topic is a soprano, with yt. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:44, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Congratulations (belatedly) Gerda, for Rachel Yakar, a great-looking article. Nice clip too, thankyou! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:11, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! If you like to watch, there are several more on yt from that film. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My story today, Canticle I: My beloved is mine and I am his, - the composer, born OTD 110 years ago, didn't want it shorter (but the publisher), more here. I'm back to a good tradition: a Britten composition on his birthday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Gerda. It was Blue for Benjamin day today! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My system sees a security problem with the link, sorry. - 10 years ago, I made Benjamin Britten for his centenary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * How very odd. It is https. Congrats for 10 years ago! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:22, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Which of the 3 yt for Canticle I speaks to you most? - What a story! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * User Talk:Gerda Arendt --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:57, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links, Gerda! Martinevans123 (talk) 09:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Today: in memoriam Jerome Kohl who said (In Freundschaft): "and I hope that they have met again in the beyond and are making joyous music together" --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gerda. Yes, a great band! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for November 8
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Portskewett, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Hardwick.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much, DPL, for your latest gos. But that's the only page that seems useful there. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

extremely banned
It's a good job we can trust these Admin types. That's the last time I ever make a pilgrimage to take the grotto cure. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Well it's not like our admin's are from the gods or anything. Wait you take pilgrimages? Is that like an annual salmon run? Those can be fun, for the bears, like tourist season for the local shop's where I used to live. For the local non-shop owners, however, it can be quite unbearable. -- A Rose Wolf  12:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * LOL. "As flies to wanton boys are we to th' gods: They indef us for their sport." -- Johnny Bunions 123 (talk) 12:50, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Not in the mood. I liked what I saw of Wifione. I liked what I saw of Lourdes. I saw too little obviously. Music to be had at Rossini's talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, actually, Lourdes seemed really helpful. Am thinking of turning this Talk page into a help-centre for disgraced Admins. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:05, 9 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Can I sign up for that even though I'm not an admin? I am perceived to be the blacksheep of the family. -- A Rose Wolf  14:21, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll drink to that! But obvs, the choice is yours... Martinevans123 (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Ryland Davies

 * Thank you, Monarch  OfTerror  . --Martinevans123 (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem. Great work updating the article! Scientia potentia est, Monarch  OfTerror  20:59, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed, boyo. According to James, Sean and Nicky, libraries gave us power.... . Martinevans123 (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I expanded the Glyndebourne section by many famous colleagues, directors and conductors. On a train ride yesterday, I had time to read the Duffie interview completely: enjoyable! Could you add more from that to the article? Especially those things taken from it to the Millington obit? I also had the chance - different IP - to see a bit more of The Times: it's different but nothing special. I'll turn to recordings. 9,4k+ views yesterday: let's entertain them. He will be good for GA. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Will try and have a look. Yes, it's a good interview. Thanks for clarifying about The Times. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Four recordings, need food before the next ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:04, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I added Le Duc in Massenet's Chérubin, with the quote, also at Covent Garden in 1994, and Podestà in La finta giardiniera. Montserrat Caballé and the cognac is a great story. As is the 1983 opening night of Otello in San Francisco with Margaret Price, Silvano Carolli, and Marek Janowski in the Bruce Duffie 1998 Chicago radio interview. Here he is in Donizetti's Lucia di Lammermoor at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden with Richard Bonynge in 1972. Truly wonderful stuff! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:47, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! - The cognac story is already in Caballé's article but for him, after DYK please or they will want nothing than that ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That would certainly be a strong contender! Probably a slam dunk... Millington mentions his "vocal breakdown that occurred in the early 1980s". I'm not sure if that should be included, or where, or how. He describes it himself in the Duffie interview: "... having had such a big bite of those lovely roles I did for twenty-six years, ... It's that sort of business." Martinevans123 (talk) 21:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we don't need to be more explicit than we already are, - with years without performances and several "later he returned". - I found a nice obit by Cooper, added, which would be good for more recordings. Too tired now, perhaps tomorrow, when I also plan to get the references away from the text and nominate for GA. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, looks useful. Mentions also ".. the Shepherd in Tristan und Isolde", although not sure when that was. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * ... the smallest of the small roles ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:47, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, just 20 lines in two scenes, it seems. Perhaps too small to be worth any mention. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:06, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

New cabinet announced...
Constructed very quickly, by a Mr R Sunak of Westminster, this charming period piece wins this week's glittering Restoration Award on The Slightly Repaired Shop. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Google Glass
Hi there Martin! Not sure if you have watch-listed Google Glass, so I thought I would send you this example of how I would re-work this content to make it more copyright compliant. — Diannaa (talk) 18:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello Diannaa. Thanks very much, that's a great improvement and a very good example. I was slightly unsure if it was a smartphone or just a "smartphone-based messaging interface". I'd have to check beyond the abstract on the details. Maybe you've already been able to do that. Either way I guess, a smartphone was used. That article was not on my watchlist, but I came across it because of KJP1's continued efforts at the CCI. It seems to be largely a one-person task for him at the moment. Thank you again for the very useful re-write. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a nice summary of the journal article at https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0018720814555723 which is what I used to do my re-write. Based on the info in that summary, my feeling was that "smartphone-based messaging interface" was just a pretentious way of saying "sent a text message using a smartphone". — Diannaa (talk) 19:06, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Similarly, I understood "passive cost" to mean that the simple fact that the device is in place on one's face causes a certain amount of distraction. — Diannaa (talk) 19:12, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the Abstract that's available to any reader via the reference. Scientific abstracts are generally freely available to anyone at no cost and without any institutional affiliation. I'd agree about the meaning of "passive cost". But I'm not sure that Ben Sawyer, Associate Professor at the University of Central Florida, or his associates at Wright Patterson are necessarily being "pretentious" lol. If it was simply a smartphone, it would have been a hand-held device and that may have imposed a further cognitive cost on the driving task. I also wasn't sure of the message modality - was it text, or voice, or a combination of both? I guess such details might not matter for the purposes of the Google Glass article? I can get access to Human Factors, but I don't have it on a continuous basis. Thanks again for the edit and for your friendly and encouraging message here. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

England Expects ...
It's time for another entrant in our current round of unelected PMs, and as we've mentioned before, your CV fits the bill. You have exactly the right amount of hands-on governmental experience and glib self-assurance. We're slotting you in in mid-December, when everyone is distracted by the holidays, for a run of, well, maybe a year or so if past trends hold. England Expects That Every Man Will Do His Duty. Signed, Charles Rex

[ Softlavender (talk) 08:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)  ]


 * Cheers Chazza, me ol' china. Yes, it's nearly the most wonderful time of the Parliamentary Year, again. And it's beginning to look a lot like recess! Soon time to break out those go to Seasonal treats..... over-cooked Brussels Sprouts, the kangaroo anus and, of course, pigs in blankets. Yum!! Martinevans123 (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Alas, here in the colonies, all we get are two servings of old and spoiled leftovers. But anyway Martin, you have my vote! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "PM still confused on different types of test. He holds it in his head for a session and then it goes." (- private diaries of Sir Patrick Vallance, Chief Scientific Adviser)
 * ... and yet, over here, we were comparatively lucky:
 * "And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?" (- Donald Trump, White House coronavirus task force briefing, live on national television, 23 April 2020)
 * And some of you guys actually want him back?? Sheesh. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't make sense of it, either. In Argentina, at least they can blame it on 140% inflation. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't you worry.... as soon as we've removed all the ACM cladding, and replaced all the RAAC in our schools, hospitals, court-rooms and theatres, and got HS2 back on track and under budget, and sent all the boat people to Africa... we'll have a good three weeks left to grow the economy, reduce debt and cut NHS waiting lists. If not, we'll all get nice cushy jobs as presenters on GB News!! -- The Good Old Days 123 (talk) 21:50, 20 November 2023
 * Yeah, but can you make Mexico pay for it? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * hmmm, good point. I think we'll just settle for making Australia pay for it! --Matty and Nigel's Excellent Adventure 123 (talk) 22:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Breaking news
Did you know ...
 * ... that a 2018 study by researchers from the Magna Græcia University suggested that Italian scuola metafisica artist Giorgio de Chirico suffered from Alice in Wonderland syndrome?

Disambiguation link notification for November 21
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Giorgio de Chirico, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Paramnesia.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:09, 21 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "Hey bot"... I can't help feeling I've seen your notifications before. And I've got this sneaky feeling you've posted this exact same thing somewhere else!! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:13, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

3 down and less than 3 to go!
So, Sections 4/5/6 down. I’ll take a look back at 1 next, where lots of work’s already been done. Then, 2, where less has moved, and finally the rather daunting 3, where b@gger all’s happened. There’ll be a slight hiatus coz I’m away again next week, and then we’ve the big move in early December. But by Christmas 2024 we’ll be clear! KJP1 (talk) 12:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Cool. I'm sure hundreds of other editors, inspired by your efforts, will soon rush over to help out. Alternatively, the imminent creation of copy-vio-bot will soon decimate the CCI listings. But seriously, your efforts are very much appreciated (by me at least). Martinevans123 (talk) 12:18, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Are my edit summaries of any help at all? Would anything else be more useful for you? Ironically, as an unblocked editor, I am now freely able to wander over to any other CCI and decide if it's content needs any deletion or re-wording. Obviously I am disinclined to do that, or indeed to make any decisions on my own edits. As far as I can see, no advice is given on this aspect in the CCI guidlelines. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * To be honest - and to save you time - not really! You still have to review the diff, then review the page as it now is, then review the source, then make a judgement call, and then either close it as or make any necessary tweaks. The summary is really just another thing you have to read/be cognisant of. What is really needed is the Frankenstein monster AI Bot that can tell if it’s a false positive or not. I’ve been looking over the Project pages and there have been prior discussions on this, and some WMF funding for tools that improve the workflow. But I’m sure that some of our tech-savvy colleagues (and I don’t include either you or I in that!) could develop something that would really help. I’ve flagged the issue so we can see what transpires. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I won't bother. Obviously you can ask me to rewrite, but it's generally going to be about 10 times quicker if you simply just do a tweak (or a presumptive tweak) as you go along, just as you have been doing. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Medlar-with-Wesham
Martin, Where I could use some help is with Medlar-with-Wesham. It's largely yours. Aside from reading like a Yellow Pages entry, and with a wealth of unsourced local colour; the "war memorial enjoys attractive floral displays throughout the year"!?WTF!?; it has two big bits on buildings, the Mowbreck Hall bit, and the whole section devoted to the workhouse. Neither is sourced, but both have the "ring" of having come from somewhere. "a fine edifice of red brick" / "faced with Accrington red-pressed bricks, and stone dressings". Any ideas as to where? What it really needs is a through copy edit/trim. KJP1 (talk) 09:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'll have a look. But feel free to remove anything that looks suspect. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Does the workhouse (later Wesham Park Hospital) even exist any more? The 2020 newspaper article says it was scheduled for demolition. KJP1 (talk) 09:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The site is now mostly a housing development. The last little bit of the former hospital, which was being used by the NHS, was indeed demolished in 2020 and half of the site is now taken up by a purpose-built residential care home for the elderly. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added a book source from 1912 (Brownbill and Farrer (eds): The Victoria History of the County of Lancaster Volume 7). Is that still covered by copyright? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

A la Ronde
Another one is A la Ronde. I think you said you still had the guidebook. Swathes of it are uncited, and much of it reads like a "lift". Other stuff we think comes from the Searle blog - or did he copy from us? What it needs is a thorough trim, and a check against the guidebook to ensure that any close paraphrasing is eliminated. KJP1 (talk) 10:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. Since my contributions, User:Murgatroyd49, User:Rupples and User:Jack1956 have all made useful substantive edits. I wonder if any of them also have a copy of the guidebook. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have a copy of the guidebook (published 1991) Murgatroyd49 (talk) 10:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've got an edition revised in 2008. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Quick check, mine is revised 2018, thought it wasn't that old. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 10:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Cool. Doubt that our editions differ that much (mine has 32 pages). KJP says of the article: Swathes of it are uncited, and much of it reads like a "lift". So looks like we all ought to have a go at improvements, if we can? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What I haven't got is the Rough Guide where some of it may have come from, looking at the current refs. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Nor me. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the first thing to do is go through and identify all the material covered in the guide book and properly reference it with page numbers. I'll make a start on that later on. (Have shopping to do first!) Murgatroyd49 (talk) 12:05, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Terrific - many thanks, both. What I'd also like to see is what Pevsner says. But that can wait, and will have to until my books are finally out of the bloody boxes. Unless, of course, either of you or a TPS has the updated Devon. KJP1 (talk) 12:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If it's of any use, I can dig out my old Devon Pevsner. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:29, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it would be very useful if you could add that as a source for anything that's currently unsourced, although there's not a lot of architectural detail? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:05, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * - as Martin always says, any Pevsner is better than none! KJP1 (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * errrrm, what I actually said was "any Prosecco is better than none." But never mind. Your can't beat some good Pevs. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've now added a few words from Pevsner (technically, Cherry and Pevsner). Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Guy. I do hope you won't he accused of Cherry picking. "fnaar, fnaar!" Martinevans123 (talk) 13:24, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

A thought occurs, while I wait to go to the library to check the ODNB entry for Jane Parminter; there is a separate article about the cousins at Jane and Mary Parminter which more or less duplicates the history section. Would it be worthwhile merging the two articles while we are in the process of a relatively major edit? Murgatroyd49 (talk) 13:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Murgatroyd. That might be a good idea. Another strategy might be to move all the biographical material from A la Ronde to Jane and Mary? Let's see what KJP1 thinks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC) p.s. I can access the ODNB, using by library card number, from home.
 * It's just that there is a large overlap, most of the J&M article is about A la Ronde anyway. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 14:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. The two articles should certainly be rationalised in some way. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Have commented at the Proposal. I understand the rationale, but have a concern re. removing an article about 18/19th century women. KJP1 (talk) 17:28, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Lionel Blair
Hi there. Just to let you know that the fountain is still there, or was the last time I looked. It's tucked away in the small open triangle - Seven Dials Close, behind Sainsbury's where Las Iguanas is situated. It was largely the opposite side of Saw Place that was redeveloped. Mighty Antar (talk) 14:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah thanks for telling me, Mighty Antar. I was actually looking for a source that gave the location. The caption "Blair's handprints in Bath, UK" looked a bit vague and puzzling to me, especially as the image isn't explained anywhere in the text. In fact, that's the only mention of Bath - I wonder did Blair have some connection with the city? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:15, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Notice
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Pegasussy (talk) 22:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems that that discussion has now "run its course". It's not always a good idea to go running off to AN/I after less than a minute. I'd like to apologise to any of my fellow editors who may have felt obliged to defend what may have been seen as "ill advised" comments. But I'm not prepared to compromise on my personal view of Mr Yaxley-Lennon. The suggestion that he has written "... best selling books, which have sold millions" is a complete joke. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it is most unfair that WP:BOOMERANG-generating ANI threads happens when I'm off-wiki. What am I supposed to do with all this popcorn? On-topic for the discussion though; there used to be a bit of graffiti on the western exit to Ashford International railway station that proudly said "Free Tommy" which has since been defected to be illegible, and erased by the council. Of course, this could be simply a campaign to re-instate Mr Boyd on children's television again and I've completely misunderstood. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I bet you feel a right lemon. "Rock on, Tommy!!". Martinevans123 (talk) 12:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * RIP Jean Knight (1943–2023): seems somehow appropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Stephen Yaxley-Lennon
I missed the fun at ANI, I see! But I actually came here to ask you to mind your tone on that ... gentlemen's talk page. I share your utter contempt but Wikipedia is not the place for our opinions and talk pages are for discussing articles, not subjects, and even people we don't like enjoy the protection of our BLP policy. Thanks, <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 18:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I hope you saw my apology to fellow editors above? I'm sure I would not have shared by views so quickly if I had not been provoked by some pretty ridiculous claims. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I saw. And I'm late to the party. I just wanted to remind you of the purpose of talk pages and the importance of BLP so we don't have any more issues in the future. :) <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 18:46, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I can assure you it was no party, or even any fun, for me. I think Threesie might have some left-over popcorn to share if you're peckish. But thanks for the reminder. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If Martin, Harry, or Ritchie want to take a walk on the colony-side, do come and see Jacob Chansley. (The hatnote at the top of that page is worth the price of admission.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:35, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Sheesh. I'm sure Jacob and "our Tommy" would get along like a house on fire. But remind me not to do too much walking over there! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:41, 27 November 2023 (UTC) A hustle here and a hustle there??
 * Careful with that walking thing. Crossing the road is illegal over there! ;) That's possibly the second-funniest hatnote I've ever seen. This one has to be my favourite though. <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 19:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's definitely the winner! I laughed out loud. But for the distant second, I think the wolves should sue, but not the Rose one. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Careful with that walking thing. Crossing the road is illegal over there! Funny story, my first time encountering a crosswalk. We don't have many roads to worry about. -- A Rose Wolf  21:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Walking?? Isn't that something you Yankees do when you're finally too old to drive? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Nope. We just sit on the couch and shout at the TV. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, not so different then, after all. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:33, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I only just went to get my drivers license a few years ago. I have only driven an automobile a few times since then. Yankee?? I am not from New York but I did have an encounter with a lamp pole in Times-Square when I visited. Probably best to leave that experience in the locked box, Asareel. -- A Rose Wolf  21:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If you don't like the way I drive, stay off of the sidewalk. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * "And if you don't like the way I insult people, stay off of the Talk page!" Martinevans123 (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC) .... don't be a dummy, just take your meds

ArbCom 2023 Elections voter message
<div class="ivmbox " style="margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #AAA; background-color: ivory; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center; "> Hello! Voting in the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2023 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * User:Lourdes not running this year? Well maybe, I guess. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually no woman, and Opabina regalis dropped out. And none of the candidates even understood my question, but what's new? - Ten years ago, an arb voted to ban an editor citing a diff in which he had uncollapsed an infobox and brought it back from the bottom to the normal position. None of the colleagues called him out on it. None of them had understood the diff which superficially looked as if he had added the box. I don't think they ever realised their mistake. My friend was not banned only because one of the arbs generously changed his vote (days later, heavy days for me), arguing that he didn't want to be the one voice needed to ban a prolific content editor. The whole thing made me mistrust arbitration. The best reply this year was "better make music than edit when angry" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Not sure I'm quite ready yet to be ticking any of their boxes. I'm making a list and checking it twice.... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Simplified guide to arbitration I continue to live by: Don't. -- A Rose Wolf  12:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, if you say so. But it's always great to have a committee, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I know one committee that is very useful and fun (opinion), apparently until three users leave the same message on a user talk page. -- A Rose Wolf  15:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * One can't have too many birthdays, can one? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The "Don't." is from Hammersoft, and best advice. I am tempted not to vote. 8 of 10. None of them will brake the Wiki, but none of them looked at detail, and none at the broader context. May they be praised for volunteering to do a dirty job.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm starting from a default "Oppose" for all ArbCom candidates. I'll review them, but it'll be difficult for any of them to move the needle off of oppose for me. ArbCom needs to go. It is a toxic boil on the heart of Wikipedia and a distinctly negative presence on the project. If it were an editor rather than a committee, it would have been banned from the project a long time ago. Failing candidates advocating significant reform, I see no reason to support them. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure we can't we tempt you off the fence on this one, Hammersoft? I'm willing to start from a default "Oppose" for all candidates, but then swiftly move to something more negative. "I didn't get where I am today by having toxic boils in my heart, Reggie!" Martinevans123 (talk) 18:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ha! :) I love it! --Hammersoft (talk) 18:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I voted oppose on all candidates and will change it if something a candidate says or has said alters my position as I go through their answers and even look at past discussions they have had. It is nothing personal to any candidate, several of which I have admired for their work here, only that is always my default setting for all arbitration. -- A Rose Wolf  18:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Could we not have four columns: Oppose, Neutral, Support and Dismiss? Might speed things up. At least HJ Mitchell took the trouble to come to my Talk page to scold me personally. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Three columns suffice - neutral is good for nothing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Although I'd be prepared to change "Dismiss" to just "Gunge". Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah! Harry is a good one. He is principled even if we don't agree on everything. Most of us wouldn't agree on everything, like our favorite football squad (Juve), but most of the people I gravitate to in life, there must be something my Gift finds appealing about their principled nature, my Song finds resonates with their Song on some level, and my Life is irrevocably altered by the force of their impact upon me and my trajectory on my journey. -- A Rose Wolf  19:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Harry won my heart when, after this desolation, he returned among the first, but to be arb it takes more than winning my heart. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I had some great conversations with Dreadstar in private. He was a nice guy. Bit of a hothead (even by my standards when I was a decade younger) but he cared about what he was doing and wanted to make Wikipedia a better place. Not sure how he would have felt about Molly delivering the news of the desysop&mdash;he once told me he had a soft spot for her! That we (Wikipedians) are still arguing arguing about infoboxes a decade after the original arbitration case tells me that (some) people just like arguing. That's as true on Wikipedia as it is in life.And for what it's worth, count me as a member of the "wish there was no ArbCom" party. The two or three cases a year that don't involve admin status could be handled by another body (perhaps a group of trusted editors appointed ad hoc to deal with a single case); I'd love to see an admin review board with powers to desysop for cause if warranted and issue findings on admin actions ranging from fully endorsed to outright admin abuse via "that was silly" and "good faith but could have been handled better". That still leaves some privacy and ban appeal functions but they don't have a lot do with "arbitration" (cf. second bullet here). <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 20:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * And this just makes me appreciate you more, Harry. I don't ever want a candidate to think my oppose vote is because I don't appreciate them as an editor/admin or as a person. I inherently don't trust bodies of arbitration whose inner workings are not expressly open to public scrutiny. This latest issue has only confirmed my concern.
 * We, as editors, devote a large portion of our time to the encyclopedia and community. It is an investment. I have tried to follow the conversation and discussion and decipher where I may stand on the issue. Private warnings, private disclosure and keeping evidence private against other fellow editors, outside that which may out someone's personal identity, with no avenue for the community to have access or judge conduct for themselves only invites distrust.
 * It leads me back to the same conclusion and the philosophy which Hammersoft, through Gerda, helped me form early, whether that was their intended purpose or not, that the best guide to arbitration is Don't. I know admins do not really have that luxury, per se, because of agreements they made to be an admin. We editors (only) don't have that same responsibility. And I will not leave the potential future of my editing on Wikipedia to a body I frankly don't trust whose process of evidence gathering to arrive at their decisions is not always in the open nor is the execution of their decision always known. How can I trust that they would be fair with the potential evidence gathered against or for me in those instances unless it was provided in the open, again keeping private only that which could out a persons identity? If it came to that I would be the one to decide my fate even if forced into it by the situation. -- A Rose Wolf  13:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I can understand the mistrust of a body that is not transparent about their decision-making. But it seems to me that the solution is not "Don't", because that does nothing to solve the problem. I get it, that trying to get involved and fix what one can does not amount to fixing the things one cannot control. But fixing some things is better than fixing nothing at all. From my own experience, I've seen first hand where I've tried to help someone and was unsuccessful, so I can understand the skepticism there. But I've also been able to help someone, and been successful, multiple times. If I had decided instead to "Don't", I would not have helped those people. That's not nothing. It seems to me that "Don't" is ultimately the lazy way out. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You are entitled to your belief, Tryp. I never would try to change your opinion on the matter. I am truly happy you were able to do good and help someone. I honestly believe there is no greater thing a person can do in life than help their fellow man in whatever capacity. -- A Rose Wolf  21:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, then, I guess we can leave it at that. Good to share views, and I don't want to hijack Martin's talk any further. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Quite funky, actually! Get down! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah! Like Boney M. with a splash of Downy! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Downy?! lol. In the UK it's branded as Lenore.... quite rocky haha. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah! The lost Lenore! Quoth the Raven, one more time! (No wisecracks about the bust of Paris, now.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * errrrm, was a track on the 1976 album Tales of Mystery and Imagination by The Alan Parsons Project, if I remember correctly! ... a bit spooky Martinevans123 (talk) 23:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Please could you hang around in paddock a while, HJ, while I install my own private set of Arbcom voting buttons. I'm hoping to really cash in this year. Thanks. --Honest John 123 (talk) 21:01, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Harry, did you know that the original case was (or rather: should have been) about infobox opera, because that was new and not wanted by some? It's in more than 1.000 operas now. - If it was only arguing, those who enjoy that could keep doing it without causing harm. But Dreadstar was desysopped for having protected an article because of an edit war over the wording of the hidden message, - Wikipedia lost a good content editor. Another good editor left because she didn't want an infobox for a book. It still has no infobox. I worked on Kafka which really helps ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Gerda, what are we going to do with you?! I suggest we just get you in the ring with WP:WikiProject Composers and let you go the distance... Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I went into the ring, in 2016. It still hurts. (My father died, Nikolaus Harnoncourt, Pierre Boulez and Dreadstar. And then that. It still hurts.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My mistake. I'm sure you wouldn't want to do that again. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hammersoft has many principles which I have coalesced with principles which I have held since before coming to Wikipedia to form my own Wiki-philosophy. Chief among those being that the system that is Wikipedia sustains itself on vaguely worded policies, inconsistent decisions and a complete lack of general direction. It's why it will never die or go away but will be relegated to leisurely spiral in the realm of relevant irrelevance. I apologize, Rod. -- A Rose Wolf  18:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Ooooh... I can already hear the music! kinda spooky!! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I knew Rod through one handshake :) Not old enough to say I actually met him though. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm going to push back against some of the discussion in this thread. Pretending that every candidate this year is indistinguishable from the rest, or that opposing everyone will make the community abolish ArbCom, or that taking the position that one will never participate in a case means that one will never find oneself drawn into a case against one's wishes, is childish. The grown-up approach is to recognize that ArbCom is, like every page in Wikipedia mainspace, a work in progress, and that taking the time to improve what's there is generally more helpful than blanking the page. A valid analogy is when people don't bother to pay attention to elections in the real world, and wind up with Donald Trump in the White House. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Or even a Yellowstone Wolf on Arbcom?? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Little do you know! He's already on it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Phew!! What a relief. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * . --Tryptofizz (talk) 21:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, thank you. A very timely word there from our Arbcom sponsors. -- Vincent vance Gopher 123 (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * , Awwww, does this mean I need to put away my TNT? -- A Rose Wolf  21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, if you could get by with Alka-Seltzer... --Tryptofish (talk) 21:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I use good old-fashioned pseudoscience for headaches and, in times past, perhaps a case vodka. Just incase any arbitrator is looking to bribe me. ;) -- A Rose Wolf  21:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Currently trailing at 50/1. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:35, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I prefer whisky. ;) <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 21:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I always had you down as a bit of a Talisker man, HJ. Except when you're a bit grumpy, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, when you get to be my age, you start drinking the old person's cocktail: rum and prune juice. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Talisker's nice. Jura is a good one, Laphroaig is a favourite. Grouse is tolerable; it has Highland Park in it which is nice and smooth. I can't say I drink it very often. In a pub, I usually follow ' advice and pick the ale with the silliest name! <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 22:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The good thing about Laphroaig is, it's so peaty, if you get cold, you can cut off a slice and put it on the fire! I promise not to blackbush you. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I love the imagery of cutting off a slice of Laphroaig! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * And in the, um, spirit of the aforementioned Mr. Chansley, lovers of the maraschino cherry (or those who consider it a vegetable) will enjoy a Crossfire Hurricane. Those with good taste, however, should know that it's every bit as disgusting as it sounds. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Did someone say maraschino? "Ah! I'd love a Babyshambles!" (please note YT poster, lol) --Libertine 123 (talk) 22:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that YT poster is in for a very rocky maraschino. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * And now even a campaign song. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * * please see below! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Let's hope none of the candidates appear as brazen as BBC presenter Maryam Moshiri. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Too late…. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 20:42, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. See "extremely banned" above ..... That's the last time I ever make a pilgrimage to take the grotto cure, haha. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for November 28
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited She Blinded Me with Science, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Radio Silence.

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 * "Good heavens, Miss Sakamoto". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:39, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Rufus Harley
One of his best, I think: "Scotch and Soul" (2006 Remaster), originally the title track for Scotch & Soul (1966): Rufus Harley – bagpipes, Oliver Collins – piano, James Glenn – bass, Billy Abner – drums, Robert Gosset – congas. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Sun
Now preparing for a major re-work of the Sun article, thanks to this recently discovered source. Thank you, Gary Larson! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Whole Lotta Love
Sadly insufficient secondary sources for an entry at List of cover versions of Led Zeppelin songs: alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Now booking: Winter Cruises
All aboard for new exciting Winter Earlyish Summer possibly Cruises!! Good Cap'n Jolly Jenrick Mikey welcomes you aboard. Calling at: RAF Scampton, MDP Wethersfield, South Georgia, Ascension Island, Albania, Saint Helena and Kigali. Cost: £240 million. A room of your own or your money back! (well some of it, anyway). Martinevans123 (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2023 (UTC) (Note: sorry, "drop off" at Stockton no longer available)
 * With these luxurious accommodations this appears to be a steal. -- A Rose Wolf  19:40, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * H.M.Government advice: please keep your passport handy and try not to wear a pink shirt. --World leadin' partnership 123 (talk) 19:58, 8 December 2023 (UTC)