User talk:PamD/Archive 5

Re:Tarzanesque
Tarzanesque is the male version of jungle girl, Tarzanide (created by Francis Lacassin) or Tarzanidi is the term used in French and Italian publications.Hyju (talk) 15:10, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 06 February 2012

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WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - February 2012
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thepeerage.com
Thanks for your note. The thread has been archived. See Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 114. Let me know if you have any questions.  Will Beback   talk    08:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The RSN search function works well too. The button marked "Search Reliable sources noticeboard archives".   Will Beback    talk    08:42, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's odd. It must be broken. There may be a table somewhere which needs updating. It'll probably be working again tomorrow.   Will Beback    talk    08:51, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Removal of hatnote from Decompression (physics)
Hi PamD, You removed the hatnote from Decompression (physics) as unneccessary. It looks like you do a lot of this kind of editing, so are more likely to be familiar with the policies. Could you explain to me why it was unneccessary, as it looked useful and compliant with MoS to me when I put it there. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:35, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The logic is that no-one would arrive accidentally at a disambiguated article (ie one with a title with an add-on in brackets like this one). No-one is going to link to it from another article unintentionally, no-one would find it by typing "Decompression". So we don't need the hatnote. It's explained at WP:NAMB. Hope that helps.  Pam  D  08:12, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, Thanks, Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

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Korean stubs
Alright. It's sad when history become stubs and left unfinished. Jae ₩on ( Deposit ) 15:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

A kitten for you!
Thanks for helping with Kids Off The Block!

Victor Grigas (talk) 17:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC) 

Disruptive editing
Please explain how this is disruptive editing. To me you've just made a serious enemy. I might even take this further with an admin. 7  7  7  — June 29, 2024 17:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a bit better. 7   7  7  — June 29, 2024 18:01, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, call it "mildly disruptive" editing. I could see no good reason for adding the stub tag to that article, so assumed that you had some bad reason for wasting other editors' time by doing so. Pam  D  18:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Further, having reread WP:DISRUPT, let's just call that edit "Unhelpful". Disruptive implies a pattern, and I haven't seen one here. Pam  D  19:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I still don't understand this. I'm getting rid of the discussion. 7   7  7  — 19:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, so I'll never know why a moderately experienced editor thought it made sense to add a stub tag to such a very non-stub article. Strange. But that's WikiPedia life. Pam  D  22:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

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License tagging for File:Moby-Duck UK cover.jpg
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Position of stub tags
Thanks for the well-intentioned reminder but considering I just placed the tag there and was still working on the page in question, your note seems slightly premature. Like the line from Postcards From the Edge, instant gratification doesn't seem fast enough. :-) Jonyungk (talk) 16:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Once you place the tag, the article gets listed in Category:Stubs. Once it's in that category, someone will come along and stub-sort it, even if you're still working on it. It takes no more time to type it in the right place than the wrong place. Why not just get it right first time? Pam  D  17:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

German School Moscow
Hi! You said here only the English EL is needed for this school.

Keep in mind EL says "It may be appropriate to have a link to a non-English-language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English; or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language;" and Manual_of_Style_(links) says "when the webpage contains information found on no English-language site of comparable quality, and is used as a citation (or when translations on English-language sites are not authoritative)." - Since it is a German instructional school in Russia, both the Russian and German links are necessary and likely have information that may not be in the English version
 * Looking through the website, there's a lot of material that's only in German. I have not yet found any "Russian-only" pages with no English equivalent

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, though of course the English page provides access to the German and Russian pages anyway so nothing is lost if they are not linked directly as ELs. Pam  D  22:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

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St Gregory's Minster
Hi PamD, I noticed you removed the sundial section on St Gregory's Minster page. I thought it not unreasonable to have at least a brief description of the sundial on the page about the church, but you evidently do not agreee. Is there a prohibition in Wikipedia rules on repetition of this kind, even if it is something that is relevant to the subject? Thanks in advance - Asteuartw (talk) 23:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * One problem here is that you apparently copied and pasted the content from the sundial article, which is not allowed in any case - it loses the history of attribution which shows who created it, when you dump it into the Minster article with summary "more on sundial". You are falseley claiming the words you add as your own words.  See Copying within Wikipedia
 * But as I understand it it is also WP policy that content should not be repeated like this. If someone comes up with more information on the sundial, would they then update the one copy or the other. I've tweaked the article further to make it even clearer that there is another more detailed article.
 * If you think the Sundial information ought to be in the Minster article, you could propose a merge of the two articles, using the standard procedure for proposing a merge - see WP:MERGE. If that is done, it is done in a way which carefully preserves the edit history so that the content is attributable. Pam  D  09:15, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Rude butting in by a talk page stalker. A merger proposal was made and rejected at Talk:Kirkdale sundial.--Harkey (talk) 09:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Harkey - always nice to hear from my stalkers! I suppose as that discussion was 4 years ago there'd be no problem in an editor starting a new merge proposal if they wanted to, but it's helpful to see that the ground has been gone over already! Pam  D  10:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi PamD, Thanks for enlightening me regarding Copying within Wikipedia, which is something of which I was not previously aware. It does seem a little odd though to forbid any detailed reference to the sundial, especially the text of the inscription itself - though I can see the general principle of trying to avoid large scale duplication of content. - Asteuartw (talk) 10:59, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I've now added the image (an improved/cropped version of the one in the sundial article), which highlights the sundial. And Harkey has kindly fixed my layout problem, too. Hope you agree it's an improvement. Pam  D  18:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Much better! - many thanks - Asteuartw (talk) 12:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

CAMRA
Slow down and watch your edit summaries, perhaps? eg this one! And of course CAMRA is CAMRA (beer) - it's not even obvious that the Canberra organisation is notable. Pam D  16:58, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have a reputation for being cool and neutral, but this incident has tested my patience to the limit, and I am aware that I am pushing at the boundaries of what is acceptable. Strangely, I don't know why this incident has pushed my button, but I am rather more emotional than I should be! What might be sensible is if I take that page off my watchlist and let others deal with it.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  17:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Let's go to WP:RfD and get it sorted out (I hope!). Pam  D  18:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for taking care of this, I had lost patience with that matter. I had taken it off my watchlist, but took a look just now and noted what you have been doing. Good work.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  17:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

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New Page Triage engagement strategy released
Hey guys!

I'm dropping you a note because you filled out the New Page Patrol survey, and indicated you'd be interested in being contacted about follow-up work. This is to notify you that we've finally released both the initial documentation about the project and also the engagement strategy, which sets out how we plan to work with the community on this. Please give both a read, and leave any comments or suggestions you have on the talkpage, on my talkpage, or in my inbox -.

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WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - March 2012
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The Signpost: 05 March 2012

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category placement
Point taken about placing categories before stubs. The trouble is they are placed by the HotCat tool and they go where it puts them. I am not sure what logic it uses. Malcolma (talk) 16:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Kellogg of Battle Creek
I cannot find a single result on Google for this exact phrase. It is an implausible redirect. Eagles  24/7  (C)  23:53, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * If the company is formally known as "Kellogg's of Battle Creek", then this is a plausible variation - and redirects are cheap. It might help someone find the article, it might prevent someone re-creating the article at a variant title. I've made another one too. Deleting that redirect looks a bit like WP:Harassment. Please concentrate on that editor's problematic edits, rather than deleting good faith and quite reasonable redirects. Pam  D  23:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Right, by deleting a redirect after another user tagged it for speedy deletion, I am harassing this user. Eagles  24/7  (C)  00:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well of course I can't see who tagged it for speedy deletion as it was deleted, but this edit gives the impression that it was you who tagged it for deletion. Pam  D  00:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what I believe: we've tried many avenues to get Androzaniamy to change her attitude and follow policy. Everything else has, by all appearances, failed. Worm That Turned, who has all the patience in the world for users like her, was told to take a hike. We've tried endlessly lecturing her with policy, which only got a "stop criticizing every edit of mine!" response. The only choice left is to pile on warnings when she's messed up and hope for change or a block. Eagles  24/7  (C)  00:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But in this instance I don't think she messed up. Pam  D  00:15, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I disagree, and I've told Androzaniamy before that she should only create redirects if she'd be searching for them herself (or a variation of that). Eagles  24/7  (C)  00:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Androzaniamy
Hi Pam. I've just started an Administrator's noticeboard thread requesting an interaction ban between Eagles247 and Androzaniamy. Could I ask that you also do your best to leave her alone for a while, as she has clearly stated that she feels pressured by both you and Eagles247. For the record, I don't believe your contributions are problematic, but I think that respecting her wishes in this matter would help the situation. <font color="#000">WormTT · &#32;(talk) 10:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * OK - though I hope she found my last night's interaction, replacing her deleted redirect and creating a sibling for it, to be positive. And I've just this moment added an archive link box as there wasn't one. She's an interesting case. Pam  D  10:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As I say, I've found no issues at all with your contributions, indeed I think they've been very helpful and you couldn't have done anything better. However, I also that if her attitude is that you are following her and criticising her unduely, then she won't see the benefits. I expect it's background noise and mislabelling your work, perhaps you could actually ask her her opinion on whether she'd like you around! <font color="#000">WormTT  &middot; &#32;(talk) 10:42, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll back off and see what happens at ANI. I do wonder whether there should be some sort of Admonishment for her ongoing rudeness, or a caution not to slap whales onto people's pages etc, ... but perhaps she is learning, step by slow step, how to behave in this community. Pam  D  10:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Just for the record, my first encounter with Androzaniamy was when I stub-sorted her early version of the (apparently re-created) article Coming Up (TV series). It had previously been PRODded as "Recreation of a previously deleted article about a supposed upcoming TV series. As before, no sources at all, so no evidence this is notable.", and had been de-prodded by Amy. The sole content was "Coming Up is a television show starring Karen Gillan who plays one of the characters called Anna." I took it to AfD as "No evidence of existence or notability of the series. Article has previously been deleted twice by PROD. This version was unPRODded by original editor, with talk page comment "Please stop deleting my article." but no attempt to provide notability or sources."  Amy then removed the AfD template several times despite being asked on her talk page not to do so. (See below. Pam  D  20:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC))  The article was hugely improved by various other editors putting in work on it, and I withdrew the AfD nomination. (The three words "Coming" "Up" and "television" are the only thing in common between this article today and Amy's version.)

So that was my first encounter (some time before Eagles appeared on her scene, initially to query her premature RfA) with an editor who obviously knows and cares a lot about Doctor Who and other UK children's television shows, and wants to contribute to Wikipedia but has a big problem in reading, or understanding, or believing that they apply to her, our quite simple instructions (in this case "this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed."). She also has various other problems interacting with other editors, including over-sensitivity to language she sees as "bad", inappropriate use of "Whale" templates etc, finding Wikipedia "too serious", childishly awarding herself umpteen barnstars, rejecting offers of help (including removing the Welcome template and labelling as "vandalism" its replacement) etc. I will watch the ANI with interest. Pam D  11:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * By the way, I only removed the AfD tag once and that was by accident. Remember this? Androzaniamy (talk) 20:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm: Looks like once, twice, three times .... ah, OK, rereading the talk page at your link, it wasn't you but it was someone else. So the competence problem at that stage was of leaving your machine logged on when other people were around who would do silly things for which you'd be blamed. Fair enough. I've struck through that statement above. And in response to your edit summary question "Do people always talk about me between each other? Scary!" the answer is "Sometimes", and some of them probably do so by email too which might be more scary than a thread on an open talk page! Try not to give them stuff to talk about. Remember the plan to be polite and competent. Good luck. Pam  D  21:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Flashspun fabric
--Inlandmamba (talk) 10:33, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Help with an userbox
Hi, I see you have User:Arjun G. Menon/Userboxes/My Time in your userpage. Could you please tell me how can I use it on my userpage, I'm from India. I have tried to add it, but it is showing wrong time. You have the following code:

"User:Arjun G. Menon/Userboxes/My Time|0|UK"

I changed UK from India, but it is showing wrong time. And what to type in the parameter where you put "0"? My UTC offset is UTC+05:30. So I added 05:30 in the said parameter, it is showing "Error: Invalid time." -- Supernova Explosion   Talk  01:11, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I can't help. I tried adding "5.5" but that didn't work. I've looked briefly at the code but I can't even work out how it adds the hours figure: and of course it will be far more complicated to handle an offset in minutes, as it will sometimes change the hour and sometimes not. I see that the userbox creator has already been asked this in 2009 so presumably is not interested in the challenge of updating the box to cope with part-hour offsets - though he is still an active editor, so you could try asking him again, perhaps on his main talk page.  Perhaps it would be best to look at userpages for other Indian editors to see if anyone else has a solution, or even ask at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_India whether anyone would like to have a go at creating a userbox which can cope with Indian time? Sorry not to be able to come up with a quick solution. Good luck.  Pam  D  08:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I indeed had in mind that the problem may associated with code. Thanks for the suggestion. -- Supernova Explosion   Talk  08:26, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

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other people
Oh. I didn't know about that policy. Is it new? Can you point me at it please? Changing subject: I see that you're continuing your good work. Well done, and thanks. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I knew I should have dug out chapter and verse: See Hatnote also known as WP:NAMB. I'm not sure I agree with it (someone could well find the wrong Bernard Evans by Googling), but that's what it says at present. And thanks for the kind words!  Pam  D  00:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. I agree. Thanks, Pdfpdf (talk) 01:24, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

U-8047 TRUST
Dear pamD, I have edited and republished the media infomation writen by you last week in a way that I agree with. I do hope this is OK with you. I am sorry if you was upset or ofended by what happened over the last few days, but I found the way you had writen the story was too derogatory to the trust, of which I just happened to be the Chairman at the time of my arest.

I was detained for 18 hours and questioned about a company that I worked for in Lancashire, between 2005 and 2007.

The story was published Exclusively by the Yorkshire Evening post on 27/01/2012 http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/customs-raid-on-leeds-u-boat-exclusive-1-4185634 All other storys origionated from this.

On 28/01/2012 The same newspaper printed a follow up story, confirming that the alegations dated back 7 years and had no connection with the trust, other than the fact that I was on board when arested. Unfortunatly this was only put in print and their is no on line copy to site.

I do hope this explains my actions and their are no hard feelings?

PS, I am having problems with the citation links, pehaphs you may be able to help tidy them up? Uboater (talk) 06:54, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you
Just to thank you for your contributions to Sue James and Bruce H. Mitchell. Ottawahitech (talk) 17:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

U-boat size
Although the journalist said that the boat was 1/5th size, it is not, nither is it 70 feet long as they also got wrong. Below is the answer to your question.

Hi pamD, U-1, U-2, U-3, U-4, U-5, and U-6 of type IIA, Length: 40,90m http://www.uboat.net/types/iia.htm Although this is infomation from the net, u-boat.net is the world renound infomation on u-boats with 30,000 pages of infomation.Uboater (talk) 21:56, 10 March 2012 (UTC)Uboater (talk) 12:47, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

just remembered
I remembered Worm That Turned telling me to tell you if you're allowed on my talk page. You are allowed, of course but take this in mind: I get intimidared quite easily when left heaps of warnings or negative messages on my talk page. Androzaniamy (talk) 19:05, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I nearly weighed in with a comment on your today's comment on AN, but I see two other editors have said it all already! (And remember it's a good idea to use the "Preview" button to avoid typos like "tsalkpage", when you want people to take you seriously and not react negatively.) I'll probably keep away, knowing that Worm is keeping an eye on you. As I've said before, your article space edits look fine (though there's still stuff to learn - did you notice my templatising of your hatnote at Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events the other day?), but interacting with other members of the community still seems a problem. The best way to avoid "heaps of warnings or negative messages" on your talk page is to avoid getting things wrong repeatedly or upsetting people. Remember the plan to be "polite and competent" and aim for it, with Worm's help. Good luck!  Pam  D  22:18, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 12 March 2012
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Adam Joinson Article
Hi PamD, thank you for your helpful comments and alterations to the Adam Joinson stub. I apologise that my attempts to improve the article, undid some of the work you had done. As my user page states, I am very new to wikipedia and therefore I am still unsure as to what needs to be done to create and improve an article. I'm sorry any offense I may have caused and thank you once again for your help. SarahAStewart (talk) 15:00, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Edward Littleton
Thanks for your quick attention to the references here. I need to learn to do that and I think the example you've given me might help. Sjwells53 (talk) 19:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Revised Joinson
Hi, once again thank you very much for all this help you are giving to us. It's okay, I'm sure it must be quite annoying to an experienced editor to have students make silly mistakes such as the stub tag. As a general query, do you know how much information is needed before the stub tag can be removed? Thank you for taking the time to view the revised version of the article and it does seem like there is a fair amount to learn still. I will change the information now in response to your helpful comments with regards to occupation and references. Thanks again for reviewing our work. SarahAStewart (talk) 17:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


 * What's a stub? Good question. There's an essay here: User:Grutness/Croughton-London rule of stubs, and a note here: WP:STUB,which says "A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text which — though providing some useful information — is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject, and which is capable of expansion. Sizable articles are usually not considered stubs, even if they lack wikification or copy editing.", but nothing very conclusive! I think AJ has moved beyond being a stub now, anyway, and have removed the tag. And added another category while I was there. Pam  D  10:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I wanna thank you...
...for lighting the way. Encouraged by the sources you offered at its AFD, I was able to take Triggermen from this stub and make THIS... something far more suitable for the project. As the new article first created on March 17 has now gone through a 15x expansion even before its ink was dry, perhaps you might suggest an interesting and suitable DYK for such a "bad" film?  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking up the torch! I was just surprised that a film with Pete Postlethwaite could possibly be non-notable, so dug around further for reviews than the original editor or nominator. I've nominated it for DYK, but I fear it may fail on the "review one yourself" requirement: I've nominated 6 DYKs over the years (see User:PamD) but haven't reviewed one, and haven't got the mental energy today to read through all the rules about reviewing and take that on.  Pam  D  09:53, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Once I began looking, the torch burned quite brightly. I modified the DYK sentence slightly, and as co-author/expander went ahead and did a review of another article for us. And as I have myself done 67 DYKs I can assure you that the reviewing process has become somewhat easier than before... and less confusing now that the snags have been ironed out of the system.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 18:03, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Mangled redirects
Thanks I'll go look at what links to Stub and that should alert me to all of these problems. Thanks for your vigilance. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

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River Elan?
I noticed your English language name variant to the Afon Elan article and was wondering about the rationale behind the addition. As an English person very long resident in Wales and one who has spent a long career in and on Rivers, I am very used to the bifid naming of rivers in Wales. The Elan however seems to be one that everybody calls the Afon Elan, even Ordnance Survey can't find it in its heart to give it an alternative English name. I was therefore intrigued whether a good ref existed for the English version ?. I am not going to get picky about it, just curious. Regards  Velella  Velella Talk 19:13, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it was the existing redlink in Elan Valley Reservoirs which made me add the English variant. I looked at the category Category:Rivers of Wales and saw that there were many at River, many at Afon. And I was intrigued when I spotted the far distant Elan River! But if you think it's inappropriate, feel free to remove the mention in the lead para. Not sure about the hatnote. And the redirect might as well stay - we have evidence that at least one WP editor thought it was the right terminology for that waterway. I have no particular expertise in either Wales or rivers: I just stub-sort and do whatever tweaking seems useful or interesting on the way. (And it sometimes leads me a long way... ) Pam  D  19:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually if you google the phrase (in quote marks) "River Elan", a lot turns up, such as local fishing club and http://www.elanvalley.org.uk/. Pam  D  19:44, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Reply
Sir, the whole article has been referred in its official website! And the buildings in India built by the Nawabs and the British when they ruled here are difficult to be referred. As only a few references of those building could hardly be found! You would find several other articles within the scope of Wikiproject:India which do not have reliable resources!! So it does not matter much! When replying I would be highly obliged if you leave me a Tb template, and where are you replying....Thanking you-- Jagad hatri (২০১২) 09:37, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Replied at Talk:Motijhil. Pam  D  10:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

no cite
Dear pamD, RE: Royal Armouries Museum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Armouries_Museum Sections 2 and 3 have no citations or reference and are not verified. Just because they are so big why are they treated difrently to us? I feel this is not fair. Uboater (talk) 12:36, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


 * By all means add appropriate tags to that article, or discuss it on the article's talk page (but not on my talk page), or contribute to the encyclopedia by carefully adding appropriate references to those sections. There's a general WP principle of WP:OTHERSTUFF used in deletion debates which adds up to what our mothers all used to say as "Two wrongs don't make a right": something wrong elsewhere in the encyclopedia is not a reason for getting things wrong again.  Pam  D  13:24, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I see now that you have added a note to Talk:Royal Armouries Museum, though it is addressed to an editor who does not appear ever to have edited it. (Myself, I have it on my watchlist, which is how I came to remove an unsourced and inappropriate addition to it last month which drew my attention to U-8047 Replica Submarine of which I was previously unaware). The note you have added is pretty obscure for any reader not involved in recent discussions of that article. Pam  D  13:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The armouries has now added citations, however they all lead to their website, which I think from whats been said before is not alowed. I have e-mail'd them and Twitterd them and still they have not corected anything. I feel strongly that an organisation traiding in the name of the Queen should have things correct.Uboater (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the fact that it is a solid, respected, national institution explains just why its website is a WP:Reliable Source for factual information about the museum. And of course the Wikipedia article is not the responsibility of the Armouries, but of Wikipedia editors who choose to edit it, so emailing and Twittering to the Armouries is irrelevant - though it might be that you would get a better response to your communications with them, and other people, if you took more care over spelling (or get someone else to proof-read for you if spelling is a problem). Just as you do not own the article on U-8047, the Armouries do not own the article about them. Pam  D  17:22, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunatly I have dislexia, pwhich is probebly also spelt wrong. Sadly we cannot all be retired Lybraians with such stuning english abilities. Now Down to the nity grity. The royal armouries website is not factual nor is its wiki page. I Live outside the place and their are many thinga said which are not correct. I run a small independant trust which has given FREE quality historical education to over 11,000 children in leeds over the last few months. To dare to tell me that our website is not correct solid and dose not contain factual infomation is not only an insult to my inteligence, what their is of it, but an insult to our young visitors. I firmly bieleve that you have a strong connection with the Armouries, and furthermoor that your views are slanted and biast. You should not be allowed to have so much editing controll over other people who are just trying to give their free time to help children learn the realities of war.Uboater (talk) 11:04, 31 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I have not said anything about your website. If there are statements in Royal Armouries Museum which you know are not true, and they are not supported by a reliable source, then amend the article, carefully and with a full and informative edit summary, and giving sources for any information you add (and perhaps get someone else to check your spelling because of your dyslexia). I have absolutely no connection with the Armouries beyond having been in the College of Music Choral Society when we sang at its opening, and having visited it once since then. I do not have any particular "editing control", only what any Wikipedia editor has within the rules of Wikipedia. Please do not make wild allegations.  Pam  D  11:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I sincerly apolojise if you have no direct connection to the Armouries, with you mentioning the twitter and facebook comments I thought that you did. Again sorry if it was not you that rejected quotes from our website, it must have been another editor. When we arived here mr Peter Armstrong one of the directors came and met us and we got on quite well. Unfortunatly our web editor made the mistake of putting U-8047 TRUST as being "at the Royal Armouties" insted of adjacent or near, or outside. This dasmaged our relationship and it caused tit for tat problems and complaints from them. This has come to a head last week with a manikin on the conning tower and the Muslim staff complaining to thr police that it looks like Sadam Husain and that we have put it their to offend them. The police came and laughed at it all, but the day after the Armouries removed our A board from it's location and it go's on and on. Not your fault I understand but all we are trying to do is give free education to children to show them the horros of war. Thing should improve soon as we have requested to move to a diferent part of the dock away from them. Anyway, sorry to witter on. Thanks for replying and answering in such a civil and profesional mannor. All the best Capt. R. Williams.Uboater (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I can see how you might have interpreted what I said about Twitter and Email as meaning that I had seen your communications, but I was just guessing that they might have suffered from the same spelling problems as your usual talkpage contributions. I apologise for that confusion. I'm sure you know, as a dyslexic, that other people are likely to interpret a message full of mistakes as coming from someone who just can't be bothered to type carefully or spell-check or proof-read what they've written, and thus shows no respect to the reader. The reader doesn't know that in your case it's dyslexia rather than disrespect. So you need to take particular care, and get someone to proofread for you, when sending messages to organisations and wanting to be taken seriously. I was speculating that perhaps you hadn't done so, and perhaps that was why you weren't getting replies.


 * As you obviously have a difficult relationship with the Armouries, you should take great care in editing their website Royal Armouries Museum. If you have comments or believe that information in the article is inaccurate, the article's talk page is the place to discuss it. I first encountered U-8047 when a chunk of inappropriate text was dumped into the Royal Armouries Museum article: if you do not have the interests of the encyclopedia at heart, it might be best to stop editing Wikipedia.  Pam  D  07:39, 1 April 2012 (UTC) (corrected  Pam  D  19:40, 1 April 2012 (UTC))

I think that would have been the toilet incedent? Unfortunatly that was done by my partner, who was very angry at the time. When we switch on the PC you can chose user accounts, she went on as me and wikipedia signed her in as me. I now have a pasword to prevent this, Sorry. On a lighter note, here is a little section from our web site about me:- "Born in Bolton in 1960, I was unable to play the violin by the age of Three. By Eleven, I could still not read & write, and still cannot spell. I wos however bestish in Inglwish in err class, coss A wurr goodererr thun awll ove thuvers"Uboater (talk) 09:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

:)
Thank you very much for all your kind contributions. I know these are not exactly the best excuses..., but I've been extremely busy lately and my computer has strange behaviours at times. That's why I have to write all the articles in a Word document first, and when I put them here, sometimes I can review them, sometimes I can't; sometimes this Wikipedia uses the same templates, sometimes it doesn't... And that's why I do appreciate when you guys review all the articles! :)Gaudio (talk) 07:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

BareMetal
I noticed you reviewing my (very) short article about BareMetal. Any tips you have for improvement? There is very little to document, but it is one of the only examples of OS'es that are not (partially) based on the work of Dennis Ritchie I could find. Sidearm (talk) 15:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The most important thing is to find independent reliable sources which talk about it WP:GNG - not just the website of the people who wrote it. Without that, it fails WP:NOTABILITY and could get deleted. Google for references, look on your bookshelves, go to your local library or whatever. I think this one probably counts as a "Reliable source", as it's by the staff of the website and not reader-contributed, but I'm not an expert on the definitions of RS .... yes, "OSNews is considered reliable.", quoting from Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_111.  Pam  D  15:28, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Re your note/reminder
Dear User:PamD, regarding your note/reminder and proposed deletion notice thanks! Shall do the needful soon--am sory but just started the article, and havent yet got around to expanding it. Rges Khani100 (talk) 03:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)Khani100

Deng Xiaoping and the Making of Modern China
Thanks for pointing it out on Talk:Deng Xiaoping and the Making of Modern China - I added the years and publishers of the U.S. and British first editions. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:55, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Maggie Anderson (disambiguation)
Hello, Pam. Just letting you know that I've removed the speedy on this as I found some more entries, and created a Margaret Anderson dab. Hope it looks OK to you now. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 09:26, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I wonder how far down the road we need to go in including every minor character in Brigadoon etc. There were no redirects created for these people when the Brigadoon article etc were written. I'm looking around to try to find a criterion specified for inclusion in dab pages (WP:DAB includes "what not to include" but not "what to include"!) and might raise it for wider discussion. I'm pretty inclusionist about redirects, hatnotes, dab pages, but I think these Maggies may be going too far. Though I can see it's atractive to create a dab page so as to be able to include a link to the Margaret dab page, and v.v. (neither of the Maggies is actually a Margaret). Pam  D  09:34, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disambiguation. Pam  D  09:45, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. The criterion I was thinking of was MOS:DABMENTION. Boleyn (talk) 11:44, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Azure
I don't see why you chose to "speedy close" this RM after only two editors, beyond the proposer, had contributed, and in view of the fact that as proposer of an earlier failed move request you were hardly an indpendent party. The discussion should have been allowed to run its course. Pam D  09:54, 8 April 2012 (UTC)  Copied here from User_talk:Jc37
 * If you will re-read, you may note that I didn't propose the previous RM. - jc37 21:35, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry - re-read and agreed! Pam  D  22:57, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Clara Bell
Hello, my apologies--I may have accidentally undone some of your edits on the Clara Bell page, though I tried to fix them the best I could. Can you tell I'm new at this? You may want to take another look at it and refix anything you did that I messed up.

Narziss39 (talk) 08:56, 12 April 2012 (UTC)Narziss39


 * Hi Narziss, Yes, You've undone most if not all of my changes -I think you were probably working on an earlier version (eg with your wrongly-linked dates). I'll sort it out. Pam  D  09:00, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - April 2012
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Thanks again
Dear User:PamD thanks again for your help in fixing the Irfan Ashraf stub and its name/title! If you dont mind, might I please ask your guidance/advice on another article that I have been working on, too? This is the article on Sikandar Hayat Khan (Punjabi politician) and it seems that someone keeps vandalising it, time and again. Some of the other editors working on the page first identified this and found out that this was almost all the work of some unientified user with the IP address User:76.17.7.56 which is supposed to be somewhere in the USA. Another editor left a warning and today, so did I, after another vandalism attempt. We've also left relevant messages/notices on the WP Pakistan and India notice boards, which are the relevant projects involved, as well as other places. I hope that this doesnt happen again but I was wondering, if we should request some sort of protection of this page/article? Would be grateful for your help and your response, either here or on my talk page, or the article talk page, as you prefer. Sorry for the trouble. Regs, Khani100 (talk) 12:39, 14 April 2012 (UTC)Khani100
 * It's tricky, because that IP you quote is only recorded as having made 2 edits (both to the S H K article). Be sure to warn them after every piece of vandalism and then, when they are still actively vandalising after recent warnings, report them to Administrator intervention against vandalism (AIV), following the procedure set out there. But if they keep using different IP addresses, you will have to repeat the procedure for each IP address.  Make sure that all the information in the article is carefully sourced to reliable references so that there is nothing they can reasonably challenge.  Pam  D  13:06, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear User:PamD, thank you very much indeed! Yes, I think to an extent a number of us working on this article shouldve reported more often and each vandalism instance, big or small. I believe that all the refs are reliably sourced, and that if someone doesnt agree with something/s they will challenge them in any case--in this instance, if Im not mistaken, it could even be a relative or descendent of the subject, writing in anger and with a lot of hatred for some other relatives, rather like an online family feud! But that is very wasteful of our time, and efforts, and ultimately there seems very little one can do about it, given the nature of Wikipedia itself. It's sad, because all of us working on this and some linked/associated articles, are very fond of these subjects and the history of that era of the Punjab and North-West Frontier. Im afraid that such talk will drive away a fair number of us, as a result of this constant effort just directed at checking and correcting vandalism. Very best regs, Khani100 (talk) 13:39, 14 April 2012 (UTC)Khani100

Kierra (given name)
PamD,

I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I had to explain the situation to RHawarth and couldn't think of the right word to to describe how Velhalla relates to you. Writing "friend" seemed the least bad way at the time. Also at the time I did not know who had deleted the article and did not wish to make any accusations without knowing the facts. I think that Velhalla's behaviour in this case is quite shocking and am wondering whether there is any one to complain to. Edit warring is one thing, but this is something else.

Regarding timing, I can see how you would be able to find a quote within a week, other people are not so fortunate. In the past I have remove blatant false content after waiting 3 months and still had a complaint. Also, there are weeks that go by without me logging in, not counting my fortnights holiday. All this with the best will in the world. Wikipedia is not most people's job.

RHaworth undeleted the article and I trust that it is now ok.

All in all, I trust that there are no hard feelings.

Op47 (talk) 14:00, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

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Tony Rowan-Wicks
"Tony Rowan-Wicks" Sorry, I didn't understand the beginning I should use "-" but I hope this reaches you:

Hi Pam, Thanks for your kind reply - I think my best solution is to give my children a document of my details - as headmasters are not celebrities and don't figure hugely in writers' interests. My children and others can ask me for a copy - to use later perhaps.

I will certainly continue as a reader of WP, using WP regularly as it is such a wonderful resource, but I'm not sure I have the sort of information which can be used in edits of other people's work - I note that contributions, when edited, often cause offence.

I can see the link of WP to the work of librarians. On that topic, I pray that libraries remain part of our culture and some remain - in north London too many are being closed. Maybe some day WP will be the only World Library so its important to add to WP if we have the skills. Tony Rowan-Wicks 09:30, 16 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robdn (talk • contribs)

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Leeds
Point taken Pam, though it was started at about quarter to 5 in the morning and I was without a second cup of tea! I would hate to do those articles from scratch so copy and pasting is the one and only way to do it. I am usually more careful anyway, so will try and be absolutely sure next time :)

doktorb wordsdeeds 07:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Good heavens!
I have to admit I'm truly impressed by your stamina]. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons
Feel free to duplicate this invite on the pages of others who have commented, for or against. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

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Mademoiselle d'Elbeuf
I have been deleting the pages recently created by two sockpuppets of user:LouisPhilippeCharles. Most of them had next to no other editor input.

user:Templatier a sockpuppet of user:LouisPhilippeCharles created a page called Mademoiselle d'Elbeuf. As you had edited it and its associated talk page several times, this is a courtesy message to explain why it has gone. -- PBS (talk) 15:27, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know. It was a rather odd dab page, and I'm not unhappy to see it disappear! Pam  D  20:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Northern Ireland (disambiguation)


The article Northern Ireland (disambiguation) has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Orphaned dab page with only two links.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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Speedy deletion of the article Samad Ali Changezi
The article Samad Ali Changezi was deleted, reason was (A7: Article about a real person, which does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject (CSDH)). The person is a national hero of Pakistan and his death was named as the Supreme Sacrifice [|Ref here]. He was one of the members of No. 9 Squadron (Pakistan Air Force), the fist fighter squadron of Pakistan Air Force. He was awarded Sitara-e-Jurat the third highest military of award of Pakistan[|Reference here]. Last but not the least, he belonged to the ethnic minority group known as Hazara people. His death made his ethnicity known in the country and he is among the heroes of Hazara people in Pakistan. Therefore, I believe the article should be restored. Hazara Birar (Talk) 07:38, 26 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I proposed the article for deletion because it did not say anything beyond the fact that he was a flight lieutenant in the Pakistan air force and was a Hazara, neither of which is grounds for notability. By all means re-create the article and include the above information, because it sounds as if he is WP:NOTABLE. I think I remember that thhe picture appeared to have been copied from another website in breach of copyright, so you must not include it again unless you can show it to be legal.  Pam  D  07:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I have asked for restoration of the article. Secondly, I didn't put any image to the article someone else might have done that. Thanks Hazara Birar  (Talk) 07:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Triggermen
Orlady (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

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re: Leeds Metropolitan Borough Council election, 2012
Hi Pam. Thanks for your helpful post. I was only going by the example doktorb posted on my talkpage in regards to Blaenau Gwent. I guess he made a mistake. Thanks again.  Lugnuts  (talk) 14:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Pam. Please assume good faith, which I applied when moving the pages. I believe them to be incorrect, as they have borough/county/city in the title of the council involved. Thanks.  Lugnuts  (talk) 14:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Why did you edit the redirects? This is not normal practice. Pam  D  14:17, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi again. Bots come around and tag redirects, but I do it anyway. Thanks.  Lugnuts  (talk) 16:49, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

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Thomas Dalyell (disambiguation)
Hello, Pam. You worked on this page a couple of weeks ago, and removed a prod from it. After two speedies and a prod were all removed, it's been speedy deleted, again without informing the creator (me). I've re-created it, but I think there was one more redlink, if you know what it was, please add it.

Forgive me if I've asked you this already, but any ideas who might be able to take over the list-creating for Suggestions for name disambiguation? Quadell used to do it, but says he/she doesn't have the key anymore. There's certainly a great need for further hatnotes and dab pages, but I don't know how else to effectively address it. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 09:44, 5 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I noticed the deletion of the dab page and thought it odd ... having had a day away yesterday I see you've already taken it up with the deleting admin and the repeated nominator.  No, I can't think what other entry it had.  And no, sorry, no ideas about a replacement for Quadell. (But I'd spend even more of my life on Wikipedia if that project was still available, so perhaps it's just as well to be dormant!)  Pam  D  07:37, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

U-8047 TRUST
FAO PamD Dear Pam, The trust has formally stoped useing the term Replica Submarine, because of complaints from scale modelers,etc. All of our marketing, litriture and web sites now refair to us as a Submarine museum. You will note thet last year we had two pages, one as a submarine museum and one as replica submarine and one of the editors merged them to one, unfortunatly they picked what has turnerd out to be the wrong one.

Unfortunatly because of my limited english and learning dificulties, I am unable to atempt to change it round without messing things up.

Please could you assist me and change it to Submarine Museum? The first line would need tyding up as well because I think it wouls repeat. Yours Capt. Richard Williams U-8047 TRUST Uboater (talk) 09:02, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, I've moved that page and done various tidyings-up of pages which link to the Museum. I removed the "New in 2012" section from Clarence Dock, because that sort of section is appropriate in a tourist website or leaflet but not in an encyclopedia. But there's now a link to the museum website as a reference on that page. I also thought the main article about the Museum would be improved with an image top right as most articles have, so broke up the gallery of 2 pics and moved them into the text - I think it looks better now. Pam  D  10:10, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank's for that PamD, it is fantastic and is starting to take shape, I just need to get cite's to add a bit more about it. It would be so much easier if we were allowed to site to our website. PS can you cite to a photograph, that show's what you are refairing to? Uboater (talk) 10:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added a mention of the old name, for historical completeness - have you got a reference to any actual announcement of the change of name which we could cite? But no, you can't use your own photos as a reliable source of information. If something is notable, then someone else should have noticed it and written about it.  Pam  D  10:28, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note for my talk page stalkers: this is U-8047 Submarine Museum we're talking about! (I sometimes find it frustrating when there's an interesting-looking conversation on someone's talk page but I can't find the page they're talking about!). Pam  D  10:31, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

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Talkback
I think I chose the right one this time...if not, my Twinkle isn't twinkling right :)  Sarah (talk) 22:23, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Pegi Young
I am not sure why you notified me of this. If you look at this edit history of this article, you will see that my only contribution was to create it as a redirect, which apparently you have restored. --rogerd (talk) 14:25, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that. Someone had made a stub article over your redirect. I first nominated it for speedy deletion as having no claim to notability, at which point Twinkle automatically informed you as the "creator" of it; I then changed my mind and decided a redirect was more appropriate... as you say, going back to your original creation. So we agree. Sorry for the confusion caused by my change of mind! Pam  D  15:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the way you handled this...Just let it get deleted and then re-created the redirect.  I was thinking about doing the same thing...--rogerd (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

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Stavely
"It's a village in District X, County Y, England. It has a church called Church of Z."

That's the content. It's not being restored, but feel free to start a better one from scratch. DS (talk) 12:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

"Living People"
Hi,

With articles like Roy Wright (journalist) - assuming you don't know they're alive (cause I don't) are they just being tagged that way because of a template, or are you explicitly tagging them that way - and in that case, is that just to make sure they're catagorised as BLP just-to-be-sure? Sorry if this seems a daft question, stub sorting's not something I've ever done! Egg  Centri  c  23:40, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Creative curriculum
OK, restored <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  09:07, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Runet (term)
Hallo PamD, I'm wondering why we're giving space to Runet (term) which seems more dictionary than encyclopedic - it even says it's a dictionary term, in fact. You've tagged it for linkrot; maybe we should take it to AfD? Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:05, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, to be honest I was puzzled by it all but wasn't in the mood to look into its history and find out whether there's a long saga about the term/article/dab page, so I stuck on an appropriate tag and moved on without stub-sorting it! ... pause to lift the stone and peer underneath ... Aaargh. Looking at the history of "Runet", I'm keeping out of this. Pam  D  09:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - May 2012
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Bloke
Hi PamD, thanks for your support and addition to the draft. I made a couple changes. My cursory edit comment had an unintended tone, it was made in the sens of "I'm making an attempt to integrate" .. :) Ok thanks hope you have more additions if you find anything more. Green Cardamom (talk) 20:59, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Ty
thanks a lot for fixing the I spy game. realized later that I could have done it myself if I'd done enough searches (if only I had more time)

and thanks for showing how creative even a talk page comment can be

--asdofindia (talk) 17:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Horsforth scout hut
You are probably right. Regards Chemical Engineer (talk) 15:17, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

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WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - June 2012
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Talkback
<font face="Bradley Hand ITC"> Gourami Watcher  (Gulp) 15:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

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Sharp (surname)
I think you might get angry with me, but I did added some constructive edits to this one. P.S. Sorry if I didn't put them at the same time as my others, I hope nothing bad will happen to me. You know, I just trying to help, but sometimes over or under do it. Please forgive me if you will see it that way. P.S. If you will be kind enough, can you please help me find arachnologist or enthomologist under Sharp surname?--Mishae (talk) 01:56, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right that I'm unhappy with your removal of the spaces after the bullet points. I cannot see this style documented in words, but the examples at WP:BULLETLIST show spaces being used. I think they make the list easier on the eye for editors. Please do not remove them from other similar lists, even if you are making other edits to the list at the same time - removal of these spaces is not neutral, it is a negative contribution to the encyclopedia. There's an entomologist called David - is he the one you want? But if you are trying to reference an article, you need to find evidence that you have the correct Sharp, not just a Sharp who happens to be writing in the right subject area at about the right period. Pam  D  07:28, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry for any problem I caused, I will not remove any white spaces from the lists. As far as WP:BULLETLIST shows spaces being used, well, its because:


 * 1) Its an old version and,
 * 2) Its a machine.--Mishae (talk) 15:14, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your points:
 * It's the current version, possibly long-established (old is not the same as bad)
 * What's a machine? We are all humans working with computers. Humans make the rules, and humans have chosen to have that space there. Pam  D  15:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * O.K, maybe I miss spoke again (how common it is with me?) What I ment by a machine was the computer. In other words I tought the server must have goofed up and thats why it gave you white spaces. Altough I am not a technician, I sure am an administrative assistant. O' and not in my dreams, on my real job! O.K. I promise not to bother you with my pointless edits, however, the reason why I gave Sharp thing to you is so that you could varify how useful (or not) that edit was. I sometimes edit without knowledge. P.S. I promise I will keep my pointless edits as low as possible. Hope that helps!--Mishae (talk) 00:54, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Is it O.K. if I remove it? I think the conversation here is over.--Mishae (talk) 08:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I do not remove conversations from my user talk page. I prefer to leave them here until they are automatically archived for me. Please do not remove material from this page again. Pam  D  09:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Wont they just take a huge amount of space on a server? O' and the reason why I dont use edit summaries is because I write huge, not enough space for me and I can't write in 5 words or less.--Mishae (talk) 12:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Compared to all the page revisions which are stored, my talk page archives are a drop in the ocean. And 5 words would be much more helpful than nothing (they can include "See talk page" if you need to say something much longer!). I'm fairly sure that I've set an option or gadget which allows edit summaries to be longer than standard, but I can't find it anywhere in "preferences"! Pam  D  13:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * See Help:Edit summary for more info: and the limit is 250 characters, which is plenty more than 5 words! You can also set a preference to remind you to use an edit summary: I find it helpful. Pam  D  13:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The problem is is that I don't see the point in edit summaries, even if that would have been a rule (I hope its not!) I wont use it, probably it will take another space, like 250 characters is 2 and 1/2 MB. As for talk pages being a drop in the ocean, to me its more like a thunderstorm on a Danube river (floods, etc). The thing, talk pages are great, yes, but if we will archive every message of every user we might end in with 1 GB a year, and thats for every user! Ending up with a whopping more than a half of TB, of just article chatter, warning and blocks. Now 1 TB is equals to at least 2 feature articles, not to mention a half dozen stubs that can be made and expanded upon. Preferences are good, but sometimes users need to comprimise not with a consensus but with another user. Sometimes a user might have an idea that the consensus doesn't know could solve some clutter. I do it at my job all the time, like deleting single digit numbers, etc.--Mishae (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The consensus view is that "It is considered good practice to provide a summary for every edit" (WP:EDSUM). By choosing not to use them you set yourself against what is considered "good practice", and you appear to show a selfish disregard for other editors. Similarly, removing spaces in situations where the consensus is that there should be a space (for example after the asterisk in a bulleted list, or between parameters of a template) is also inconsiderate to other editors. Fortunately not many editors share your views. Pam  D  22:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I just don't understand, Rich said its perfectly fine to remove spaces as long as you do other edits as well. I'm shocked that on Russian Wikipedia no one have this edit summary rule, and neither does any other Wikipedia language section! Why English one needs to torture their users into using it, I never used it, and never will. Will you guys block me for not using an edit summary? I don't think so. As long as I don't make the pointless edits, I suppose to be fine, and free from blocking threats! Isn't there rule that called "I don't give a fuckism", if so, that includes consensus. Yes! I came here to help a project by editing articles, and write some of my own. Problem is I am prevented from doing it by you guys and your stupid consensus practices, of which I don't even care about! I have too much of stuff to care about here. I need to be nice to people (and I try my best), I can write articles, but I can't edit them, and at the same time its called "free encyclopedia that everyone can edit"!!! Where is that freedom! Maybe I am not getting something here again? I'm sorry if that might hurt your feelings but all this "freedom" looks like fascism to me, I can't edit an article even the one that I wrote without a complaint from you. Can I at least write them here? O' and its unfortunate that a lot of editors don't share my views, makes me an outcast here. You know I am delighted to work in Wikipedia, I am proud that despite my disability I can donate my mind and share my views with other people. What I don't understand is when the editors start thretening me for pointless edits, and now for not using an edit summary. I'm sorry if I consider every warning as a threat but thats how I am. Maybe I just don't know how to help your project? But I do try my hardest, and instead of complaining and whine to consensus you should appreciate it. I wrote 620 articles, and I would love to write some more, if thats O.K. with your consensus. Like this?: Tansy beetle Now you are happy?!--Mishae (talk) 21:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You use the word "threatening" a lot: I've not threatened anything, just asked that you go along with established good practice and use edit summaries. And I'm delighted to see your edit summary in Tansy beetle: thanks, and I hope it isn't just a one-off. Pam  D  21:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No its not the only one, I did for 3 more. I wanted to do it for another one but forgot to do it (thats actualy another reason why I don't like them). Its just too much for me. See, I want to do my pointless edit, I also want to combine it with my good edit, and adding to "always" remembering summaries, its just too hard for me. Not to mention, it says in your WP:EDSUM that its not necessary to do it if the change is small, and my changes are small. Added some spelling fixes for that article as of now. Another thing that I don't get what if I stop doing edit summaries, will I get blocked? The rule doesn't say that. Or I didn't read the whole thing, if so, point me where it says that? Question: Whats wrong with this one?: Rhus choriophylla--Mishae (talk) 22:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Since you ask about [[Rhus choriophylla]]... I see that someone else corrected three typos in it, but I'd add that "distibution" is spelled wrong but far more importantly both the references are quite inadequate. The sources look as if they are good, but you haven't given enough information in the article. Because of "link rot", the reference should give enough detail to show where the information came from, even if the URL no longer works. And links to websites should also include an access date. You asked! Pam  D  22:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I've upgraded the two references, and also changed the category from "fauna" to "flora". Pam  D  23:08, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry for miss spelling, was on a rush for dinner. As far as edit summary goes, I think I will do it this way:

Another thing to mention, I don't think people are blind, and they can distinguish one edit from another simply by looking at the changes in the article (thats how I do it, either way). If for some reason they don't see the changes, an editor can also check the previous version simply by clicking "prev" in the "view history". By doing in my opinion "pointless edit summaries", I end up feeling like a dummy. I already am one, but I hate to show it. Plus, not every version of Wikipedia does it (and probably its because its pointless), so whats the point for this version to have it? One more thing, I am sorry if I don't add citations to websites (I wrote a lot of articles without them, and no one complained). I don't think is bad not to cite every site, (again, since most, if not all Wikis don't do it).--Mishae (talk) 23:32, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I will do it to articles that I haven't written myself.
 * 2) I will most likely mention Wikifications or texts, but not all combined.
 * 3) I will try to remember, but if I wont, (and that probably would be 90% of all times), please dont block me.

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DYK for Bloke (word)
Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:04, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Talkback
You might want to see this before doing anything about this. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:30, 13 June 2012 (UTC)   TransporterMan

BEWARE OF KAZZI03
Kazzi03 is a real problem. He constantly edits and deletes stuff that contributors post. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.94.232 (talk) 03:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Stub tags
Excuse me, I am more used to the editing of the French-speaking Wikipedia, where stubs tags are banners put at the top of the page. But I'll be aware of that fact next time! I wish you a pleasant day. Matou91 (talk) 10:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The emails were me
Sorry I'm under a bit of wikistress and was looking for an ear to vent to. Paul Austin (talk) 05:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

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Discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Hatnote#Finalizing_the_new_proposal
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RE:Copyedit
''Have copied both the messages below to User talk:KoshVorlon to keep the discussion in one place. Pam D  15:49, 20 June 2012 (UTC)''

Pam, Actually, Mogism removed several lines of text under the premise of "Copyedit". (I'm running Lupin's antivandal tool and any changes made are highlighted immediately (Yes, it still means I have to read them ). ) He broke at least one sentance by this removal. I didn't call his edits vandalism, I reverted as "copyedit". I left him two non-templated mesesages explaining that he was  removing text and that he needs to slow down. No big. (As a matter of fact, I happen to know he's running fast,  the two messages I left him were very close together, he responded  first to one, that about 5 mins later, he responded to the other. So, no, no applogy is needed, nor did I accuse him of vandalism, just moving too quickly with the AWB. <b style="color:#000">"....We are all Kosh...."<b style="color:#000">  <-Babylon-5-></b></b> 15:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Heads up, this is what I'm talking about. His "copyedits" are producing this kind of a result  (he's removed about three lines of text under the edit summary "typo fixing".   (I didn't communicate with him about this at all....I wanted you to see what I'm seeing, because I get  you see differently )

File:06122012_wiki.jpg


 * This is the edit you're linking to in your screen-capture above, and is the only edit I've ever made to Monarch Airlines. In its entirety, it:
 * Removed some trailing whitespace;
 * Corrected the (incorrect) "Kb/s" to the (correct) "kbit/s" (the typo fix referenced in the edit summary);
 * Fixed a broken URL;
 * Put the interwiki links in the correct order.
 * The error is with the tool you're using, if it's showing me as having deleted any text from the article. I would very strongly advise you actually to check what you're reverting, before you issue spurious warnings. Mogism (talk) 15:36, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Piltdown
Thanks for the picture. Are you based in East Sussex? There are quite a lot of places we need pictures for, but I don't drive...Zigzig20s (talk) 21:08, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not in Sussex (spent a couple of years there, but that was a long time ago). I found the picture at WikiMedia Commons and there are masses of UK topographic pictures there because they've uploaded most or all of Geograph. Worth having a look there for any places where you want a pic. Pam  D  22:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

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Disambiguation link notification for June 29
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Stub Tags & Brain Picking
Thanks for the stub tag info, I had a bit of a brain fart there. Also, I was wondering, if you don't mind me picking your brain, is there a handy reference where I can find all the usual stub, citation, etc tags listed, and formatting details? Every time I try to find the info, it always takes me forever to locate it. Thanks! Jedikaiti (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, after 6 years editing I haven't found the holy grail of an all-in-one-place list, and I sometimes struggle to find stuff. That link to WP:ORDER is good for the order of sections and end matter for an article; Template messages/Cleanup is a pretty good listing of a lot of cleanup templates; for citations I use the templates on the dropdown menu on the editing toolbar (click on "cite" and then you should see them - though I'm not 100% sure that there isn't some option or preference you need to select to get them visible!). That lot might help a bit. Good luck, and enjoy your editing - there's a lot to learn but it's an interesting journey. Pam  D  22:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Many thanks! Jedikaiti (talk) 23:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Dab pages
There's no way to separate dab pages from uncategorized articles in advance when working with AWB and the untagged uncategorized articles list. I do try as much as possible to skip the dab pages and then rerun a separate batch for them, but sometimes it will happen that one gets tagged as uncat anyway, because there's no way to separate them out in advance. Bearcat (talk) 21:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Couldn't you add a filter on your AWB to look out for "may refer to" or "can refer to"? That won't catch all malformed dab pages, but would have spotted CMHI. And of course you're humanly checking all your AWB edits before clicking "save", so should be able to spot anything which looks like a dab page before you mis-tag it. Pam  D  22:12, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sometimes one accidentally clicks "save" while trying to reach for "skip". And when there are over 1,000 articles on the untagged list (which is a fairly frequent occurence), sometimes one ends up just operating on automatic pilot and thereby not really noticing things one would ordinarily catch under other circumstances. Bearcat (talk) 22:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

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Message from IP
Hi Pam,

Thank you for all of your guidance! I read through your messages and some of the Wikipedia pages you suggested. I will make sure to be very mindful of how I proceed in the future.

I understand from your notifications and from what is currently on the Children's Institute Wikipedia Page, that the content I posted in early June has been taken down…Do you know whether the large box on the Children’s Institute Wikipedia with this info about a possible violation will stay up indefinitely or does that eventually come down?

Thank you for your help.

--66.167.28.162 (talk) 16:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, I presume that you used to edit as User:ChildrensInstituteInc and that the page we're looking at is Children's Institute Inc.. (Please always give a link when you're writing on a talk page about a particular page, as it saves your reader having to work out what page we're discussing!).


 * The copyright notice will stay there until someone from the copyright team gets round to it - they seem to have a backlog at the moment. You are free to add new, non-copyright, material to the article, but without modifying the chunk to which the copyright notice applies. If you are going to edit Wikipedia again you might find it useful to create a userid for yourself, rather than editing as an IP.  Pam  D  16:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Computational vision
Thanks for your feedback regarding my talk page and thanks for "fiddling around," which is much appreciated. Ben T/C 11:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Breast cancer survivors' dragon boating
See Template:Did you know nominations/Breast cancer survivors' dragon boating. With some tweaks, then this will be approved for DYK. Pumpkin Sky  talk  18:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Breast cancer survivors' dragon boating
Hello! Your submission of Breast cancer survivors' dragon boating at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Maile66 (talk) 18:34, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Am away from computer couple of days, can't check refs on phone but will do so whenI can. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PamD (talk • contribs) 7 July 2012
 * (On my phone I can't even find a ~ to sign with! Pam  D  08:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I have nominated this article to be a DYK article. Questions have arisen about some referencing. Could you please reply on the template.  Thanks. Maile66 (talk) 18:34, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Replied on template page. Pam  D  08:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Ganpi
It looks as if there may be a dozen or so species of Wikstroemia used in papermaking (not all in Japan). (Google for Wikstroemia paper.) I've added a note to Wikstroemia reflecting this.

Perhaps the best solution is to redirect ganpi/gampi to Wikstroemia and extend that note with documentation of the various species. (And remove the various names from Wikstroemia retusa). Getting a coherent view of the taxonomy/nomenclature is going to be non-trivial. Lavateraguy (talk) 10:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

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WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - July 2012
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Articles for deletion/Bloke (word)
I have nominated Bloke (word) for deletion at Articles for deletion/Bloke (word) per my close at Talk:Bloke, a discussion in which you participated. Cunard (talk) 19:43, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Breast cancer survivors' dragon boating
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:02, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm so happy this made it to the front page. I'm not sure how I ran across it, because I peruse a lot of pages looking for articles. Given the subject matter, It would have shown up in Women's history/New articles and  New pages, and most likely one of those two where I picked it up. Maile66 (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

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Royalist or royalist
I used to use royalist. But after a conversation here, I have changed to Royalist, but I am open to using either providing there is general agreement on which to use. -- PBS (talk) 23:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

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Requesting your insights and perspectives
Dear Pam, thank you for all your work on the Encyclopedia. I'd like to invite you to contribute to  the DRN concerning adding L. Susan Brown to the 'See also' section of The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM). Some of us believe the inclusion of Brown’s deep knowledge and perspective is helpful not just for her expertise, and for the sake of fairness, but, more importantly, because it provides a female perspective that would supply depth and context to the TZM article. Other editors oppose that view. Best regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:24, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 23 July 2012
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Staveley-in-Cartmel
Hi, I expanded this a bit. Thanks for starting it.♦ Dr. Blofeld  18:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Disambiguation
You do far more edits to dab pages than I, please could you have a look at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Disambiguation, I would value your opinion. -- PBS (talk) 14:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Abraham Logan
Oh yes. Thanks PamD for pointing that out. I meant editor and owner. :P — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonkers The Clown (talk • contribs) 09:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 July 2012
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Barnstar
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Philippe (WMF) (talk • contribs) 21 January 2012

I say you rock
thanks a lot for fixing the I spy game. realized later that I could have done it myself if I'd done enough searches (if only I had more time)

and thanks for showing how creative even a talk page comment can be

mil-unit-dis
I fixed it. Wikipedia_talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Bugs/Archive_20. Nice catch. It has a lot of transclusions. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:22, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Ash Green School
I am not used to this talk thing and I don't like the format. I am the current Vice-Principal of Ash Green School, so the numbers are 100% correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S1ty m (talk • contribs) 14:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I am struggling to keep up. Anyway, regardless of my liking or not, I think it is really tricky for a newcomer. I have trawled back through the AGS pages and there have been some awful things written by some people, some of which is almost actionable. No idea why, frankly.

All of the data I quote is verifiable, but I have not got the time to locate precise sources at the moment. Pity. Our website will have to do.

I am struggling to keep up. Anyway, regardless of my liking or not, I think it is really tricky for a newcomer. I have trawled back through the AGS pages and there have been some awful things written by some people, some of which is almost actionable. No idea why, frankly.

All of the data I quote is verifiable, but I have not got the time to locate precise sources at the moment. Pity. Our website will have to do.

User Havebased123
Hi, you will get no response from this user. If you warn this user on their talk page, they will just blank the page. When you have had enough static, I will support you on any reporting decisions you might wish to make.  O liver <font color="33CC99"> T wisted (Talk) (Stuff) 23:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

An award for you
Thanks, very kind of you! Yes, I did notice a certain ungraciousness (and laziness in the first place) re JSTOR! Some people expect others to provide them with all the answers ... I'm reminded of AA's early days. I'll continue to chip in when I feel inspired to do so. And Laura thanked me on her talk page. Pam D  10:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Articles for deletion
Please do not nominate articles for deletion because they "have been unsourced for over a year" and - even more so - for being "not useful". AfD is not for cleanup, and "usefulness", either pro or con, is an argument to avoid in deletion discussions. Thank you. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think I was using unsourcedness as a surrogate for WP:NOTABILITY and those two articles did not appear to me to be notable enough to merit Wikipedia articles. Should probably just have quietly redirected them. Pam  D  19:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * For talk page stalkers: we're talking about these versions of 2002 LT38 and 2002 OD20: I PRODded them, and the editor who removed the PROD advised AfD. Pam  D  19:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * No worries. And WP:BOLDly redirecting is always a good option to consider. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

No footnotes
Whoops! My mistake. Read through quickly and.. in turn.. misread! Regardless, I don't know if the article counts as notable but perhaps more progress will be made on it! Appellative (talk) 00:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Ron Rogers
Well if you wanna help I'd welcome it and it does contain refs towards notability he is the United States Pardon Attorney. maybe you didn't take a close enough look? it is also tagged as a stub for now.TucsonDavid U . S . A . 07:34, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not interested in writing about members of the American legal system, but you should read Manual of Style/Lead section. A lead section is not optional. I shouldn't have to read the whole article to find out why someone thinks he ought to be included in the encyclopedia.  Pam  D  07:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But in the interests of the usability of the encyclopedia I've added a redirect from the form by which he seems to be known, as you've used above, to the full article title! Pam  D  07:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Great thanks I don't know how to addd a info box can you?TucsonDavid U . S . A . 07:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Have a look at Help:Infobox. I guess that the "General office" flavour of Infobox officeholder is going to be the one to use. Pam  D  08:22, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Stub tag...
Hi! Thanks for the heads up- it's not a tag I've used much, so I've checked out what you meant, and red faced and slightly wiser, I'll make sure I get it right next time!  Benny Digital  Speak Your Brains 07:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Yorkshire Newsletter - August 2012
Delivered August 2012 by ENewsBot. If you do not wish to receive the newsletter, please add an N to the column against your username on the Project Mainpage. → Please direct all enquiries regarding this newsletter to the WikiProject talk page. → Newsletter delivered by ENewsBot (info) · 14:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The Mystery of Third Floor (Film)
Hi, I noticed you nominated that one for WP:PROD, but would it qualify for WP:SPEEDY (A7)? Unreferenced, non-notable, COI... seems to fit the profile, doesn't it? Or is that being too WP:BITE-y? Just wondered what you thought about that. Thanks. --Drm310 (talk) 15:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, A7 only applies to " (individuals, animals, organizations, web content)", so a film doesn't qualify. Yes, it feels like a speedy. I suppose the alternative would be to go sraight to AfD, where someone might close it as a "Snow delete"! Pam  D  15:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 19
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Lumi River
The reason that I placed the disambiguation page at Lumi River (disambiguation) is because (1) since River Lumi needs to be redirected to the disambiguation page, and the practice is to have that receiving page be expressly maked with "(disambiguation)" as well as having the redirect tagged with the R to disambiguation page template and (2) since the Rio Lumia is also known as the Lumi River, although it does not yet have an article. So, I was attempting to follow standard practice. Question, would it be proper to combine the disambiguation pages for Lumi River and Lumia River? One of the Lumias is aka Lumi but the other one is not, to the best of my knowledge. --Bejnar (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Standard practice is that if there is no "Primary usage" for the name (in this case "Lumi River"), then the disambiguation page goes at that name and there is no need to create a page with "(disambiguation)". There is no reason not to have a redirect from River Lumi to a disambiguation page at Lumi River, as long as the redirect is labelled "Redirect to disambiguation page", as it is. If one or more of the Lumia rivers is mentioned in an article, where it also states that it is known as the Lumi River, then it can be added to the dab page. If there are several  Lumia Rivers, then make a dab page for them - one article can be listed on two different dab pages if the subject is known by two different names. I hope that clarifies things for you a little.  Pam  D  16:55, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What about this usage note for the R to disambiguation page template: This is a redirect to a disambiguation page. This redirect is intended for use in links from other articles that need to refer to the disambiguation page, rather than be disambiguated. Therefore, this template generally should only appear on pages that have "(disambiguation)" in the title.? --Bejnar (talk) 17:12, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right, Template:R_to_disambiguation_page says the template should be used if and only if the redirect has "(disambiguation)" in its title - I've removed it. The template is needed so that anyone looking at "What links to" a disambiguation page can see that some links, via that redirect, are intentional (usually from hatnotes, dab page "see also" sections, etc). Simple redirects to a dab page are no problem, and plenty of dab pages have a lot of redirects pointing to them when there are possibly slight variations covered in the one dab page. I think it's all OK now.  Pam  D  18:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. Won't people and robots still see River Lumi pointing to a disambiguation page and not be able to tell that it has been properly vetted? I thought that the purpose of the tag and the form was so that a robot could easily distinguish intentional redirects to disambiguation pages from those that were not so intentional. --Bejnar (talk) 20:22, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no problem having the redirect River Lumi pointing to the dab page, as it will help people searching, but it should be an orphan! Any link on a page which uses that redirect is a cause for concern, as it is linking to a dab page. So if someone, or a bot, looks at "What links here" and finds a lot of redirects, that's fine; if they find links in pages which go via those redirects, then those are links to the dab page which need to be fixed, exactly like direct links to the dab page - so a link in a page to "River Lumi" or "Lumi River" is equivalent, and in each case needs to be disambiguated. Pam  D  22:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * So what is the purpose (proper function) of the Template:R_to_disambiguation_page? --Bejnar (talk)
 * I think that it identifies those redirects from "Foo (disambiguation)" to a dab page at "Foo" which have been created so that they can be linked to in hatnotes or dab page "See also" sections, so that when someone looks at "What links here" for that dab page it is clear that these links have been deliberately made, knowing that they point to the dab page, rather than being made by careless editors. If this still isn't clear, please ask at the template's talk page, as I don't think I can make it any clearer. Pam  D  22:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It also (or did) populate respective categories that are useful for research, especially when citing  precedent as in, for example,  the case of the accepted treatment for nn schools. See: . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:50, 21 August 2012 (UTC)