Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 6

Another city-specific, sport-specific set of categories
Just ran across Category:Basketball players from San Francisco, California, which treads the same ground as Portland and Chicago. I don't have the energy to run this down, but I may get around to AfDing it (and its companion categories) this weekend if someone else doesn't. Rikster2 (talk) 03:34, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have added the San Francisco categories to Categories for Discussion. Please see discussion here to weigh in. Rikster2 (talk) 01:55, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Columbus Crush
Is there any reason why the star-gazing article at Columbus Crush should not be deleted? Are there any independent sources? --Bejnar (talk) 06:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Be bold! Without looking into specifics of this case, I think that most current ABA teams would be a similar delete as in Articles for deletion/Atlanta Aliens. Likely the only coverage (at best) is scores and schedules in the local paper, a non-independent ABA website, press releases from the team itself, or coverage from non-reliable blogs.—Bagumba (talk) 07:23, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree, just PROD it. It's very possible no one will notice or care. Rikster2 (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Willie Simmons
Dear basketball enthusiasts: The above page was never submitted at Afc, and will soon be deleted as a stale draft. Is this a notable player? Should the draft be saved from deletion or let go? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 13:19, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * So long as the information checks out as valid, he would meet WP:NBASKETBALL as having played in Australia's National Basketball League. I will take a look, verify the information, and create the article if everything checks out.  Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 13:48, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Great! I have postponed deletion to give you time to work on it.  &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 15:40, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

San Diego sports curse
has been nominated for deletion. Come on over and participate in the discussion....William 15:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Basketball players that played for national teams
Do we have something like Category:Association football players by national team? If we don't have one, how should we call it? "England international footballers" doesn't translate that well in basketball... – H T  D  18:51, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no parent category, but I imagine that categories like Category:United States men's national basketball team members would be sub-categories and it seems like a fine idea. Maybe "Men's national basketball team members?"  I do think we should try to reach consensus on exactly who the national team categories are applied to, though.  The US cat specifically calls out the FIBA WC, Olympics and Pan Am games - which excludes things like junior tournaments, etc.  I am sure ice hockey has a potential category structure model as well. Rikster2 (talk) 19:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If anything, there'd be separate categories for senior and junior appearances: as for which tournaments get in, as long as the match was under the auspices of the basketball federation and part of a tournament, we can include those. Friendly and tune-ups are quite another thing altogether though.
 * Basically the question is the naming convention. I realize we already have Olympic basketball players for most countries that played in the Olympics, so we can base the names loosely on that. – H T  D  02:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Teams listed in biography infobox
From my experience, only teams that a player has played at least one game for are listed in the "Career history" section of Template:Infobox basketball biography. Is there any precedent to include other teams? Some have recently added teams to Andrew Bynum such as the Philadelphia 76ers, who he was employed for a year but never played a game. Others are adding Chicago Bulls, who traded for him but released him the same day. At Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography, there was consensus to not list a team that drafts a player and then trades before he plays for the drafting team. WP:IBX advises that the purpose of an infobox is "to summarize key facts in the article in which it appears. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." I believe for brevity, only teams that a player has played a game for should be in the infobox, while other teams he might have had a loose association with can be discussed in detail in prose.—Bagumba (talk) 22:55, 7 January 2014‎ (UTC)
 * thanks for posting this Bagumba, I was going to do the same with all the Bynum madness. I fully support previous consensus to only list clubs a player has played for. It is the same criteria we use for team category application, which brings consistency.  The Bynum case is a weird one.  Not only did he spend an entire, very public season with a team he never played for, he also only played in calendar year 2013 for the Cavs.  The other side of how we have displayed team tenures is year span going by game appearances.  So technically, Bynum's tenure with the Cavs should be 2013, not 2013-2014.  This comes into play often this time of year - Seth Curry signed with Memphis in late December but only played one game for them - in January, 2014.  Bynum's year in Philly is an extreme case because leaving it off the club history leaves an obvious hole that readers (naturally, I think) want to fill.  I was OK with the DNP note for this reason, but how is this different from Willie Reed, who was signed to a 10-day by Memphis late last year and never got into an NBA game?  Seems like having these extra clubs in the infobox invites adding categories incorrectly.  Regardless, no was in heck Chicago should show in Bynum's infobox.  That is silly and frankly misleading. Rikster2 (talk) 00:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * As an aside, it always amazes me how many first time editors come out of the woodwork during transactions and do this stuff. I guess they are coming to see if the transaction (rumored or actual) is reflected and if not they want to make sure they take care if it.  Loved all the Pau Gasol activity. Rikster2 (talk) 01:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Aside 2: I always wondered how much Wikipedia traffic numbers are attributed to editors looking to be the first to add news, as opposed to readers seeking information.—Bagumba (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The biggest ongoing concern when this happens is "drive by" IP editors, but this happens in BLP, in sports, and in anything in general really that is fast paced. I think really it'd be beneficial to block IPs altogether in these situations rather than having approved editing as in the case of Bynum. As far as adding information to info boxes, where do we really stop, do we consider draft and trades? Trade and waives? I was the first to say Bynum shouldn't have even been listed as a Bull in the first place as it wasn't known that he would actually play there. I think in the case of people like Bynum we really need to sit on it until there is some solid information, but... that's never been the way of wikipedia. I support the notion that clubs a player has not played for should not be listed in their info boxes, the information in the case of Bynum is sufficient under the heading of his Cavs career. For the record I've come out of the woodwork as a Bulls fan. --Orestes1984 (talk) 10:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think registration should be required. There are many IPs who make beneficial changes/corrections, but my guess is IPs account for an unequal share of vandalism too.  It is much more difficult to hold IP users accountable, and I think accountability is one thing that encourages different parties to work out differences vs. just fight over things.  I don't think that will ever happen though, given that the is a sizeable faction on WP who feel this would not be consistent with being the "encyclopedia anyone can edit."  What they don't realize is that some of the vandalism/BS IPs cause is a big reason why good editors walk away. Rikster2 (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * What about Greg Oden? He has 2007–2012, but did not play from december 2009 to end of 2011–12 season? Should he not then be changed as well? I think it should be a tenure, not just when they actually played (unless they didn't play at all during their tenure with a club ie Andrew Bynum – which i agree with). It doesn't look good having only "2014" for Seth Curry for example or Wayns. For example, if someone signs with a club in January 2009 and leaves the club in April 2011 but only played one game for the club (in lets say) February 2009, they appeared for the club, therefore should have –. It looks odd if (for this example), it only has . DaHuzyBru (talk) 12:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * To add, there are many infoxes that will need to be changed if this is the case. A lot of infoboxes just have the tenures, not necessarily when they actually played. I think as long as they play at least one second for the club, how ever long their tenure is should show in the infobox. ie Andrew Bynum should not have the Philadelphia 76ers in his infoxbox because, yes, he dint play/appear for them. But for Seth Curry for example, he mad his appearance so his tenure should stand in the infobox, not just the year he played in. It can get confusing and looks odd (to me anyway). DaHuzyBru (talk) 13:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I am ambivalent about what drives the date ranges that appear as long as it is consistent. I will say that a lot of historical players' club history's are based on game logs because that is what we have available.  In the NBA we can get reliable transaction info, but that isn't true of a lot of leagues around the world as well as the CBA, ABA and NBL.  I think it also looks weird not to list Bynum with the Sixers or Willie Reed with Memphis because it leaves a gap too, but I understand why we don't do it (and am not advocating changing that). Rikster2 (talk) 13:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I still think Seth Curry and Maalik Wayns examples need to have the full tenure, not just when they played. I first came about this thing with Magnum Rolle and his Atlanta Hawks stint. Due to not playing for the Hawks, it was removed. At first, I didn't not like this but I have come to terms with this idea that if they did not appear for them, then sure, it shouldn't be listed in the infobox. But when it comes to Curry and Wayns, I think because they played for them, the full tenure should stand. DaHuzyBru (talk) 13:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Go with what the NBA does? Full season tenure whether they played or not? I think we can list Bynum as being a 76ers player despite not playing there simply for the fact he spent so much time on contract there. However, in the case of Chicago which was simply a matter of trade and waive, or in cases such as draft and trades I don't think it should be listed other than as the team that drafted the player, in this case Phoenix which drafted Luol Deng. --Orestes1984 (talk) 14:14, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I would go with what has been done for a long time, that they only get listed if they played a game. You can't say they played for a team if they never got into a game. All that happened was that their rights were owned. Its the same way we treat categories, they are only added once a game has been playerd. -DJSasso (talk) 18:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * DJSasso, do you know of any hockey examples like Bynum who were with a team for a full season but never played? He's kind of the extreme case here and I'm just curious how you guys have handled it and if there have been a lot of cases of adding the "missing" team.  Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 20:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't think of any off hand that were with a team a whole year and never played a game with them at some point in their career. Personally I would equate it to a player who has had his rights owned by the team but was on a minor league team during that year. You wouldn't list them as being on the team either. But that is just my opinion. We also don't list the dates so it takes some of the complication out of it for us. We used to list a team twice if they had two separate stints but I don't believe we do that any longer but I am not sure. -DJSasso (talk) 20:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * If they are signed by a major team and did not play at all i.e. an NBA team such as the 76ers in this case, we should still have it listed but use a note  to explain that they did not actually play a game for that team. It includes all information rather than having a reader see it or not and be confused. --MrScorch6200 (t c) 20:31, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd be wary of players that sign a lot of 10-day NBA contracts that never play a game. I might be OK if Bynum was agreed to be a one-off exception.—Bagumba (talk) 21:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe a minimum amount of time spent on the team (in season) should be a requirement to have that team listed in the career section along with the note. Something like a month is what I think as a minimum. --MrScorch6200 (t c) 21:10, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It would also have to specify that it is a certain amount of time in season to work. What happens very frequently is an American player signs with a European team in July and is cut or takes a better offer in October before that team's season starts.  In my opinion, that team should absolutely not be in the infobox.  and, again, this happens frequently every season - more often than someone signing a 10-day in the NBA and not playing. Rikster2 (talk) 21:14, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree, in season would be better than just being on the team. I've changed my comment above. --MrScorch6200 (t c) 21:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think it should be a full missed season (like Bynum) if we are going to make this exception. A month is too short. Rikster2 (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Equate it to Derrick Rose, he's still listed as a Bull despite missing two seasons with a similar injury to Bynum... There's Rondo, Shumpert and Westbrook in that category to less extreme extents. I think the time Bynum was signed with the 76ers was notable enough that he should be listed. I don't think draft and trade or tade and waive situations are notable enough because otherwise you have the other side of this trade with Luol Deng where he'd be listed as a Phoenix Suns player despite never playing there. The situation with Bynum should be treated the same as a player that has had their draft rights acquired by another team. --Orestes1984 (talk) 04:06, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, basketball reference only lists the Lakers and the Cavs as Bynum's teams (jersey numbers), although the transactions and salaries section do list his stays at Philadelphia and Chicago. – H T  D  09:18, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Poll for team options
Based on the ideas from the discussion above, I think a WP:POLL might be helpful to gauge the options discussed. !Vote by adding your name to one option below. Feel free to add new options as needed. Also for simplicity, I intentionally left out which years to list for the tenure for a team, as that seems like a different discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 05:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Option 2: Only teams which a player has played a game

 * 1) This should remain the general rule.  I wouldn't have a problem with option 4 if there is consensus, as Wikipedia is WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY.—Bagumba (talk) 05:36, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Agreed. Full tenures should be shown if at least one game was played ie Greg Oden. DaHuzyBru (talk) 11:04, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Meaning, for example, Seth Curry should have 2013–2014, not just 2014 – he played a game for the Grizzlies therefore his full tenure should show, not just the year he played in (ie January 5, 2014). DaHuzyBru (talk) 11:10, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Agree - I think there are some benefits to having some extreme exceptions (like Bynum/76ers and like Greg Oden may end up with the Heat this year), but I like the consistency of policy with how we apply categories.  Incidentally, I am adamantly opposed to option 1 - that is a nightmare waiting to happen given that we have players who actually played for close to 30 teams.  If you start adding Summer League contracts and the like it gets incredibly hard to verify where someone actually played.  I am also perfectly fine with tenures being signing period so long as they have played a game - I was just working under what I thought the convention was. Rikster2 (talk) 13:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * One more note - I think we should continue with the policy of listing current team as team they have signed (draft picks, trades, signings) so long as there is a reasonable possibility they will play for that team. For example, I was fine with the Bynum article showing the Bulls for the 22 hours or whatever it was that he was their "property."  Same with someone like Nerlens Noel who is currently injured on the 76ers roster but will probably play for them. Rikster2 (talk) 13:04, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * "Comment' - I don't believe there were any notable grounds to assume Bynum would actually play for the Bulls, it was pretty cut and dry since the rumours started flying around. --Orestes1984 (talk) 05:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) I support this one, you can't really list a team in a list of teams played for if he never actually played. -DJSasso (talk) 13:20, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * 2) I see no reason to change from this longtime standard.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:41, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. It's not only been the long-time practice, but it's a very clear cutoff as to who qualifies for a "X players" category. Never appeared in at least 1 regular or postseason game for the team, even if for five seconds? Not an 'X player.' Jrcla2 (talk) 14:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * 4) Agree There may be situations where it makes sense to discuss the fact that a player was on a team's roster, as part of a discussion of a trade, but that belongs int he main text, not in the template.-- S Philbrick  (Talk)  15:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. I believe we should have clearer criteria without any exception. If there is a one-time exception for Bynum or any other players, I believe this will lead to similar and repeated discussion down the years. Sure, Bynum's tenure with the 76ers seems notable today but in 10 years, I doubt it. If we indeed keep this option, I suggest to add a footnote in the infobox (similar to the footnotes on Template:Infobox football biography) that explains that the career history sections only list the team which the player has played for, excluding any preseason/training camp teams and teams which he haven't played for. — MT (talk) 05:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Option 4: Only teams which a player has played a game, with one-time exceptions for Bynum and 76ers, and others when there is consensus

 * 1) Support. Full season tenure for players who play at least 1 game in a season, this has been the general ongoing practice, consensus is needed on rare exceptions such as Bynum before being listed as a player --Orestes1984 (talk) 05:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Ian Hummer
Any word on whether Ian Hummer is playing somewhere this year?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like he just signed in Germany with ratiopharm Ulm Rikster2 (talk) 18:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Height in m or cm
You are invited to join the discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography to reach a consensus on the displaying of player heights in m vs. cm.—Bagumba (talk) 16:53, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Larry Bird photo
Hello, I just wanted to let you guys know I just added a nice photo to Larry Bird's article. I know little about basketball, so you guys can probably improve upon my caption or find a better place for the photo. Thanks! Delaywaves &bull;&#32; talk  03:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Can somebody create "2014 in basketball?"
We are mostly through January and there needs to be a 2014 in basketball article created so that results (which will start rolling in April) can be recorded. I usually add deceased individuals, and who knows when they will start. Would someone step up and start the article? You can use previous ones as a shell. Thanks! Rikster2 (talk) 14:43, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Still no takers, eh? Rikster2 (talk) 03:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll do this later in the day... – H T  D  00:50, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Isaiah Thomas
Isaiah Thomas's article title should be something like Isaiah Thomas (Hall of Fame Basketball player) or something that will distinguish it from the other current basketball player with the same name.

Robert4565 (talk) 22:08, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The HOF player is Isiah Thomas.—Bagumba (talk) 23:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Kevin McHale
Should Kevin McHale's page have the Houston Rockets outline in the box? It wouldn't make sense because the other coaches don't have those.

Robert4565 (talk) 22:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, every active NBA coach (head and assistant) shows the team colors. Rikster2 (talk) 23:32, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Basketball at the 2013 Palarong Pambansa
Hello, basketball experts. This old abandoned Afc submission is about to be deleted as a stale draft. Is this a notable competition, and are there references to be found? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 02:07, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
 * (It's gone now...} &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 03:15, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Demetrius Phillips
Dear basketball experts: Should this old abandoned Afc submission be kept, or deleted as a stale draft? If kept it would need a good pruning, I think. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 03:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Indrek Kajupank
Hello again - one more old draft about to be deleted- is this a notable player? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 17:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Australia women's national wheelchair basketball team at the 2012 Summer Paralympics
I am trying to get some reviewers for Featured article candidates/Australia women's national wheelchair basketball team at the 2012 Summer Paralympics/archive2. It had an earlier nomination but failed for lack of reviewers. If you could take a few minutes to post even a short review, it would be much appreciated. Especially from someone who knows a bit about basketball. But don't let that stop you. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Colombian Basketball League
Hello?? Is this a notable basketball league? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 02:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Or how about this fellow: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Michael Wittman who has been inducted into various halls of fame? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 04:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I guess I'll stop posting here. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 18:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

NBA venue/arena categories rename at CfR
I highly encourage you all to visit Categories for discussion/Log/2014 February 21 to take part in a mass category renaming proposal I created. Thank you. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Category for players that played in the national basketball teams
What should be the names of the categories for players that played in national basketball teams? I realize "international" and even "caps" aren't widely used in basketball, so what should it be? For the USA's case, would it be: What else? I'm leaning towards the first one... – H T  D  01:29, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Category:United States national basketball team players
 * Category:United States national basketball team internationals
 * Category:United States national basketball team members
 * Category:Players of the United States national basketball team
 * No. 1 I assume men's and women's will be subcategories.—Bagumba (talk) 02:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Including the under-age categories. – H T  D  02:07, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

All-PLK Team
Is All-PLK Team notable and deserving of an article? if not, could somebody please PROD... Thanks, JMHamo (talk) 13:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really an answer, but there are similar articles (lists?) for other "top-flight" basketball leagues elsewhere... – H T  D  20:28, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Pacific-12 Conference color
Template:Pacific-12 Conference color has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 18:14, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Bill Russell
The Bill Russell article could use some improvements -In the infobox Bill Russell was a player and coach during some of the same years -List accomplishments as a coach and as a player

Robert4565 (talk) 18:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

NCAA colors in basketball bio infoboxes
Hello, I am not an expert in WikiText, so can anyone introduce the templates, Template:CollegePrimaryStyle and Template:CollegeSecondaryStyle, to the main template... Template:Infobox basketball biography/style ? Temple of the Mousy (talk) 11:33, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * done, but using a different approach for the moment. will merge everything if there are no issues. Frietjes (talk) 01:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to User Study
Would you be interested in participating in a user study? We are a team at University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within a Wikipedia community. We are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visualization tool. All you need to do is to prepare for your laptop/desktop, web camera, and speaker for video communication with Google Hangout. We will provide you with a Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Finding_a_Collaborator). If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 18:11, 15 March 2014 (UTC).

Eurocup match
Hi! I don't know if I could find many European basketball fans here, but I speak very rudimentary German, so I have no choice but to post this here. I've covered the match between Valencia Basket and Alba Berlin. Yes, the images are very poor, but We have no better alternatives to illustrate some articles like Justin Doellman's or Bojan Dubljević's. Of course, I can identify Valencia players, but with the German ones I'll need help (if any of the photos can be usefull, because the resolution is as good as a cell phone-camera can be). At least one photo of coach Saša Obradović should be profitable, but We have better alternatives in Commons.--Coentor (talk) 22:17, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi there, I'm not quite sure if there's a need for those picks either, but I can help you identify the players. Regards, --Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 14:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Module:Basketball biography
FYI, the Template:Infobox basketball biography/style template collapsed under the weight of the massive nested switch complexity. luckily, I was ready for the collapse, and merged all the various basketball color templates into Module:Basketball color. the actual data is in Module:Basketball color/data. we may want to add some protection to these modules if someone comes along and breaks them. but, until that happens, it might be good to simply watch them, and revert any edits that screw it up. the modules are self-testing, with the tables in the documentation generated automatically, so it should be easy to see if something has broken. hopefully, everything is documented well enough to understand how to manage the colors. I realize the actual module might need some additional documentation, but the data template should be readable. Frietjes (talk) 21:17, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks good! I went ahead and applied some protection to the main module, but left the data module semi-protected for now.  Let me know if you need to have the protection increased.  Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  04:31, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Craig Smith
There is now a Craig Smith who is now a college basketball coach at South Dakota, yet Craig Smith links to the player who currently plays in the D-League. Personally, I think he is no more notable than any of the other Craig Smiths with articles, so I have to come up with a new label for him, but I can't say Craig Smith (basketball) since we have that basketball coach. If you can come up with a better label, please do so. DandyDan2007 (talk) 20:36, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Craig Smith (basketball coach) that you added here looks fine I guess, unless he also played. The only other common technique, is to add "born XXXX" to the title, not that it helps the reader, but gives a consistent unique name e.g. Mike Brown (basketball, born 1970).—Bagumba (talk) 14:53, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * From Smith's Nebraska coaching bio it does not appear that he played - he certainly wasn't notable as a player, anyway. I think basketball player/basketball coach is probably the best move. Rikster2 (talk) 19:55, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Turkish basketball teams' article name
I came across several of Turkish basketball teams articles recently and I'm amazed that there are no consistent format for the article name of basketball teams that are part of a multi-sport club: I'm not an expert on Turkish sports but I have seen their famous football teams use the following naming convention: Fenerbahçe S.K. (football) and Galatasaray S.K. (football). I suggest that the basketball articles to follow the football articles and Galatasaray's articles naming convention. The page that should be moved are: Any comments? — MT (talk) 13:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Galatasaray S.K.: Galatasaray S.K. (men's basketball), Galatasaray S.K. (women's basketball), Galatasaray S.K. (wheelchair basketball)
 * Fenerbahçe S.K.: Fenerbahçe Men's Basketball,
 * Trabzonspor: Trabzonspor Basketball
 * Beşiktaş J.K.: Beşiktaş men's basketball team, Beşiktaş JK (women's basketball), Beşiktaş JK (wheelchair basketball)
 * Fenerbahçe Men's Basketball → Fenerbahçe S.K. (men's basketball)
 * Fenerbahçe Women's Basketball → Fenerbahçe S.K. (women's basketball)
 * Trabzonspor Basketball → Trabzonspor (men's basketball)
 * Beşiktaş men's basketball team → Beşiktaş J.K. (men's basketball)
 * Beşiktaş JK (women's basketball) → Beşiktaş J.K. (women's basketball)
 * Beşiktaş JK (wheelchair basketball) → Beşiktaş J.K. (wheelchair basketball)
 * How do English sources name these teams? – H T  D  05:06, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
 * They simply call them Fenerbahce, Trabzonspor, and Besiktas. — MT (talk) 15:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
 * In most sources, the "F.C." is dropped for football clubs. Is this the same case here? – H T  D  15:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I barely see the SK/JK after the team name. Sometimes the media also write the team name along with its sponsor names (such as: Galatasaray Liv Hospital, Fenerbahçe Ülker, Beşiktaş Integral Forex) because it is their official names in the Euroleague or Eurocup. — MT (talk) 15:54, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Can the men's basketball team make a case for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here? – H T  D  16:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I think the football teams are more popular and these clubs are originally formed as football club before they started to grow to a multi-sports club.— MT (talk) 16:52, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry; I was referring if the men's basketball team has first dibs on taking the "(basketball)" disambiguator. – H T  D  16:56, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

2014 McDonald's All-American Boys Game images
I could use some help refining my image choices at Talk:2014_McDonald's_All-American_Boys_Game.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * These are some regs, who I have not called already, , , , , , and .--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't know anything about basketball; I was just posting here for the information of those who do, but I haven't been getting much response. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 14:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I would appreciate a bit more feedback.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:30, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I haven't been around much lately. To be honest, I wouldn't even recognize most of these players, so I don't have any strong opinions. Zagal e jo^^^ 04:31, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Flag usage on sports articles
A discussion has begun to outline usage of flags on sports articles and to review their usage. Sports articles have long diverged from what is stated in the manual of style. Please comment on the proposals and add suggestions by contributing at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. Thanks. SFB 13:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

2008 United States men's Olympic basketball team
The roster wikitable's data are in the wrong places. I've tried fixing this, but I couldn't. Robert4565 (talk) 20:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC) I was actually able to fix it, but I couldn't label Kobe Bryant as the team captain Robert4565 (talk) 21:04, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * use note. Frietjes (talk) 14:45, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Small ball = small explanation
I came here for a simple answer about small ball. Because I don't know anything about basketball. What I got was a convoluted non-definition. Somebody please fix this. --- Jed Gould — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedgould (talk • contribs) 03:57, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I looked at Small ball (basketball). Several sentences were very long and disjointed, so I made a few tweaks for readability. I'm sure there's more room for improvement, though. If you don't know anything about basketball, then some of the terminology may still confuse you. To keep it short and sweet, a team that uses a small ball strategy is prioritizing smaller, quicker players over larger, slower players. Zagal e jo^^^ 05:01, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Basketball At Wikimania 2014
Are you looking to recruit more contributors to your project? We are offering to design and print physical paper leaflets to be distributed at Wikimania 2014 for all projects that apply. For more information, click the link below. Project leaflets Adikhajuria (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Living people on EN wiki who are dead on other wikis
The following individuals who are in the scope of this project are showing to be alive on the English wiki, but deceased on another language wiki:


 * Mikhail Semyonov: ru:Умершие в 2006 году

Please help to find reliable sources to confirm if these individuals are alive or dead, or correct any mis-categorization on the relevant foreign-language article(s). Please see WP:LIVINGDEAD for more info and raise any issues on the talkpage. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 17:59, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

2014 FIBA Americas Under-18 Championship tournament team
I could use some help finding a link with the Tournament team for the 2014 FIBA Americas Under-18 Championship.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:26, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Basketball At Wikimania 2014(updated version)
Please note: This is an updated version of previous post that I made. Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost The deadline for submissions is 1st July 2014 For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to: Project leaflets Adikhajuria (talk) 16:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Are these edits legit?
IP user 179.197.175.137 has been making a bunch of edits to the uniforms of various non-US basketball clubs. I don't know enough to be comfortable saying these edits are good or a subtle vandalism attack. But I find it curious that so many basketball clubs presumably had the wrong uniform colors on their article pages... Maybe someone can take a look. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't vouch for others, but on the two that I know:
 * Flamengo's colors are red and black. I dunno if they're wearing (or wore for the just concluded season) red and black vertical stripes.
 * France NT: I dunno if they're changing it for the World Cup, but that's certainly not the uniform they used for Eurobasket 2013.
 * – H T  D  22:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
 * In the absence of a citation for the changes, I think I would treat them as suspicious and revert them. But I am not a member of this project. I stumbled on one of the edits by accident and it looked fishy so I checked out the IP's edit history, which also looked fishy. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah for me it's inconclusive. He could know next season's uniforms, or is a very good vandal. I don't think there are references for the edits though... – H T  D  10:03, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I will leave that call to the members of this project. But I do think the edits are suspicious and they lack sources. Maybe someone could drop a line on the IPs talk page and ask for sources before hitting the revert button. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

links to basketpedya.com
Hi there, dead external links may not be a pressing issue, but because it's several years since basketpedya.com ceased to exist and a full text search still comes up with more than 400 pages containing its name, I'd suggest to have a bot remove those links. --Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 14:56, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Was basketpedya.com good enough to be listed as an external link? Do those 400 pages use it as a reference? – H T  D  19:11, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * As fas I remember it, it was a pretty inaccurate, fan-run database, yet as the most comprehensive database of its kind available for free, I understand why it was quite an attractive source of information. Actually, I had thought of deleting it just from "external links" sections. A lot of articles use it for inline citation as well, so these would need to be treated differently, but I'm sure in most (if not all) of these cases, better references (i.e., the leagues' official websites) are available. But as there's no need to hurry, that would probably be a long-term project. --Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 08:46, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Infobox for 2014 WNBA All-Star Game
The score is not displaying when it is added into the text of the infobox. Does anybody know what could cause this? Robert4565 (talk) 13:17, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * There has to be quarter scoring. – H T  D  13:34, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * My guess is that it is because the quarterly scoring is not filled in. I was going to do this but couldn't figure out how to show an overtime score. Maybe someone here can help. Rikster2 (talk) 13:35, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Use "qtr5". – H T  D  13:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to take part in discussion of use of "Nationality" field in a basketball infobox
There is a discussion taking place at Talk:Shoni Schimmel concerning the proper use of this field for a Native American sportsperson. Please join the discussion to help reach consensus. Rikster2 (talk) 00:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Cornerman
I can't find any reliable sourcing to justify WP:GNG for Cornerman (basketball), aside from articles that repeat a quote that says that Elgin Baylor was the best cornerman ever. Unless this article can be improve, it might be best to redirect to Glossary of basketball terms.—Bagumba (talk) 23:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * How about merging it to Basketball positions, plus summaries of all of the hybrid positions that can be articles? – H T  D  12:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not fond of merging material that is not reliably sourced. Can anyone at least vouch that its mostly factual? I've honestly never heard the term much.—Bagumba (talk) 18:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've been around basketball for 35+ years and never heard this term til Wikipedia. When I look at where I have seen the term used, it's mostly with players in the Philippines, so it had made me wonder if it is used there regionally.  This is in contrast to "stretch forward" (or, "stretch four" to designate a perimeter-oriented power forward), which has been used more in the US and Europe in recent years.  My two cents - this should just be deleted unless RS's are brought forward. Rikster2 (talk) 19:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The main reason I'd say to redirect is because it's defined @merriam-webster.com and used as a term in books. Nothing, though, that expands on it being anything more than another term for a forward.—Bagumba (talk) 23:14, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * AFAIK it's not used that much in the Philippines. If a player can play both forward positions, he's called as a "forward". – H T  D  12:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

High quality basketball images
I have been discussing image uploads with a Lithuanian photographer, Augustas Didzgalvis (User:A.BigHead), and he is interested in releasing some images of basketball games/people (e.g. File:Juan Carlos Navarro by Augustas Didzgalvis.jpg)

He is happy to release some images, but needs some assistance with categorisation of the images on Commons and placement of the images in relevant articles on Wikipedia. Essentially, he would like to make sure any images he donates will be well used (not an unreasonable desire!). Would anyone be able to devote some time assisting him with these images? If so, you may contact him via email (available on left menu link on his user page). SFB 15:48, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to help if a list of images is put on my talk page. Thanks, this is great! Rikster2 (talk) 18:54, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Good stuff. I have advised him to place new basketball images into the commons category Commons:Category:Images by Augustas Didzgalvis (basketball). You should be able to keep track of any new additions there. Any help with any of his other works would also be welcome! SFB 19:38, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I added the first set of photos in the file and will add more, tag and categorize this evening. Rikster2 (talk) 12:41, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Can we inquire about specific players. I would like pictures of Matt Howard, DeShawn Sims, and John Shurna among others.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

NBA court diagram
Hi! I'm from pl-wiki and I'm looking for an image of NBA court diagram. We have FIBA court diagram (File:Boisko koszykowki FIBA 2010.svg), but for NBA I've found only this ones: File:Basketball courts.svg, File:Basketball court.png). Does exist image which relates only to the NBA? Could somebody create this? Greetings,  Mariusz Swornóg   ( talk ) 08:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:RFD notice
Please see Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2014_August_16. The stars of the 2014 FIBA Under-17 World Championship (Newman and Diamond Stone) are up for discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

standard for listing of nationalities
On a club team's page, what is the standard for listing an individual player's nationality: is it place of birth, citizenship, or national team affiliation. Additionally, how are UK players typically handled, are the GBR or ENG/SCO/WAL. Question has come up on NBA pages and I wondered if it has been discussed here. Thank you.18abruce (talk) 18:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Education Program: Cornell University/Online Communities edit 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team
Course Page

As part of a class assignment Cjm274, ket47, gk252, and mjm627 will be making editing to the 1992 United States men's Olympic basketball team page. Our goal is to improve this article's rate to at least a B-Class.

I wanted to know if it would be possible to add per36 and per100 statistics to the page. I was advised by Bagumba to discuss the issue here. I was told there was no consensus on these stats, but I imagine if you could get a hold of the minutes played per game then at least per36 would be easily to calculate. There is also a concern about whether these stats are to much information for the casual reader. Does anyone know where we could get the game notes for these 8 games played in 1992 ?

Also please feel free to give us any suggestions about what to improve on the page or information about good sources. We have discussed some of the things we plan to edit and add on the talk page, but we are completely open to suggestions.

Thank You - Cjm274 (talk) 11:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The FIBA archive has minutes played stats at for the 1992 Olympic Games. See for example, . Also, there are only 10 minutes per quarter in FIBA play, so I dunno how the stats could add up... – H T  D  13:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, the FIBA archive should be sufficient. I am not sure whether the it would be per30 or per40 since it is 10 minute quarters, but I will see what is the common practice. Also we want to do a comparison section that compares the Dream Team's stats (average margin of victory, scoring, opponent scoring, medals, and opponents field goal percentage) with later teams like 1996,2000, etc. We can calculate all this information from the FIBA archive, but do you know of any pages that have this information? Something similar to this: NBA Dream Team: By the Numbers . - Cjm274 (talk) 16:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose the FIBA archive has stats for the 1996 and 2000 teams... – H T  D  16:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm wary of WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. While the stats are accurate, anything beyond totals or per game averages seems excessive and not often used in prose by mainstream sources, nor has there been prior precedent in Wikipedia basketball articles AFAIK.—Bagumba (talk) 22:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if we will be continuing with the per stats but I do have some questions about making an infobox for the page. I was hoping to have something that would include title, image, coach, nickname, with a header for 1992 Olympic Games (under header: medal, and record) and 1992 Tournament of the Americas results (under header: finishing position and record). I am having trouble locating a template. The templates from pages like  Basketball at the 1988 Summer Olympics and  United States men's national basketball team are the closest I can find. I noticed the  2012 United States men's Olympic basketball team also does not have a template, so should I use a skeleton info box? -Cjm274 (talk) 21:47, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe you can see if other sports have a national team template for a specific event, and borrow from it? If not, be bold and create one for basketball, or generically for any sport.  I'd advise against having a nickname field, as historically they invite non-verifiable, fancruft.—Bagumba (talk) 18:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

2014 United States FIBA World Championship for Women basketball team
When they announce the final roster for the US, we should have a page dedicated to the team. There's no reason not to, especially when there is the men's team page. Same format as the men's team page as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.70.197.172 (talk) 17:09, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Any new article must meet the general notability guideline. They are not created to attempt to neutralize gender bias, noble as the cause may be.—Bagumba (talk) 18:47, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Notability of KK HEO and its players
Is the team KK HEO considered notable? Are its players (including Predrag Radovanović) considered notable as professional athletes? The team is located in Bosnia, and I am having difficulty finding sources other than videos on YouTube. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 04:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I can do some research on the club but the players would need to meet WP:GNG. There is no presumption of notability for players in the Bosnian League.  There are very few leagues where notability is presumed across the board, you can find that list at WP:NBASKETBALL.  If you do a search and don't think the players are notable, feel free to WP:PROD or WP:AfD. Rikster2 (talk) 11:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Why don't a Wikiproject:European basketball?
Hi, people. I don't know where is the best place to post this so I'll do it here.

I see we are many users interested in topics related to European basketball and I think this could deserve a WikiProject similar as the College Basketball's one. There are many competitions, players, clubs, etc and many ways to improve the articles or to get a consensus about formats, notability, etcetera. What do you think? (Please remove this if you consider this useless) Asturkian (talk) 21:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Jersey numbers for retired players
Currently, most former NBA players have their past jersey numbers listed in their infobox e.g. Michael Jordan (not sure if players from other leagues are as widely populated). Generally, only the pro numbers have been listed. However, one recent edit to Reggie Miller had added to the list a number worn for a national team. Based on an earlier discussion regarding Jordan's number a few months back, a further discussion on options for listing numbers seems appropriate. Results of this discussion can lead to changes in Template:Infobox basketball biography and/or the template documentation at Template:Infobox basketball biography/doc.

Options for listing numbers of former players include
 * Numbers from professional teams
 * Numbers from national teams
 * Numbers from college teams
 * Numbers from high school teams
 * Number from AAU teams

I'm thinking we should just not list any numbers for former players to avoid bureucracy of which former number are "allowed" to be listed. Otherwise, we should limit it to pro teams only.—Bagumba (talk) 01:14, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree with pro only, unless player only played at college/AAU level. In that case, those numbers are the relevant ones. Rikster2 (talk) 01:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I think pro only regardless. If college jersey numbers are allowed, it'll be tough to distinguish between "all" jersey numbers and "only" pro jersey numbers to the vast majority of editors who aren't WP:Basketball/WP:College Basketball/WP:NBA regulars. Restricting to professional numbers only is a clear, definitive, unambiguous end-all parameter. Jrcla2 (talk) 03:01, 3 October 2014‎ (UTC)

Before giving my opinion on this issue, I want to note something to other contributors. After player become officially retired from the professional basketball, we should replace some parts of the template ("number" and "position" with "career_number" and "career_position" respectively), in order to make a more visual difference between active and retired players. That is why a "career information" section is made for, to give a general overview of players playing history (high school, collage, nba draft, pro career, number(s) and position(s)). To get back on the topic, numbers from high school, college and AAU definitely shouldn't be mentioned there. Professional club numbers definitely goes there hehe. However, I believe that numbers from the national team should go all the way together with pro ones. I really don't have some valuable argument for this, yet it seems "natural" to me to present national teams as part of their professional careers. Writing this, I realize how weak this statement is. Do athletes sign contracts with the national teams? If that is the case, that should work things out. Other then that, readers should get confused, like "where that number came from?" Sorry for speculating, since I obviously didn't give a good solution.-- AirWolf  talk  11:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no reason why retired college jersey numbers cannot be mentioned in the main body text. Frankly, we need to stop trying to jam the entire career of prominent athletes into their infoboxes by listing every award, honor or championship they ever won.  The infobox honors are intended to be "highlights," not a comprehensive list.  More than 8 to 10 infobox honors is overkill; the rest, if they are truly significant, can be mentioned in the main body text.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * DL, I believe we are talking about the numbers worn by a player over their career which appears at the top of the infobox for retired players. Retired numbers in the infobox would be a different discussion. Rikster2 (talk) 10:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well . . . never mind. If we're talking about what former jersey numbers (as opposed to retired jersey numbers) get displayed in the infobox, it's only supposed to include pro jersey numbers, not college, high school or the Cub Scouts.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the "career_number" and "career_position" fields look better for retired players. They were created for coaches who used to play, but I think we should carry this through with all retired players as you suggest.  Not a fan of using national team numbers.  Some players have 2-3 different numbers and frankly the allowable range of numbers is much smaller than exists for pro teams so I'm not sure how representative of the player it is.  Feels like Michael Jordan might have opted for #23 if he'd had the option, but he didn't.  I also just don't think people identify players with national team numbers all that much - certainly not to the degree they do their professional number. Rikster2 (talk) 11:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This is quite easy, actually. If you're retired, you don't get to play, and you don't have a number. That is, unless that number is also retired. I'd even limit the displayed numbers on the infobox to the current one s/he's using. – H T  D  13:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Retired numbers are typically listed under "highlights" in infobox, so they shouldn't be repeated again if we decide to not keep the other numbers. Besides, if such a field were supported e.g. retired_number, people may mistakenly place (all) numbers of the retired player, and not just the retired number(s).—Bagumba (talk) 16:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Then only the current players are the problem. I'd suggest using the current number they're using. So if they're in a national team, add that too when the national team is playing. Free agents don't get a number. They only get a number when they're a part of the team, if they aren't part of that team, his/her number shouldn't be there.
 * Also, are "jersey numbers" a regular fixture in articles now? If they aren't, and since infoboxes are supposed to be summaries, all the more reason that jersey numbers shouldn't be there at all. – H T  D  16:59, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * People update infoboxes all the time with speculation of new numbers when a player changes teams, but it's rarely updated in prose. Steve Nash's No. 10 with LA is mentioned, but the practice is limited to more popular players. Height and weight are usually not mentioned in prose either, but the general consensus is probably that they are important enough to be in the infobox anyways.—Bagumba (talk) 17:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I could understand height and weight at the infobox, as they affect ability and style of play. They're also sometimes included on basketball players' prose ("at age 16, he was already seven feet tall"), and even sometimes in paragraphs explaining how a player has an effect on the game ("despite being less than 6-6, he was able to dominate rebounding"). This is something that you can't do with jersey numbers, although I'd concede that someone can make a section if there's a story behind to it, but that's mostly on famous players. – H T  D  17:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

First, totally disagree that national team number should EVER be the current number in the infobox. 99% of national team players are under contract with a team and have a number with that team. I see no point in updating their number for a month while the Olympics or World Cup are going on, then reverting it back to their pro team at the close. That's needless change to the article. For current and retired players I see value in their pro numbers being in the infobox, but HTD's comments make me further support AirWolf's suggestion to only use the "Career_number" field for retired player numbers. Personally, I think the number is useful for active players (which is why pretty much every major team sport project - except hockey, who is always a little different - uses them as a standard). For retired ones I can go either way, but since we have a field that clearly marks "career number" and cleanly puts it in the infobox, why not? I should think some people would go to Wikipedia to find out what number some former player wore. Rikster2 (talk) 17:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The only place where national team basketball isn't a thing is the U.S. In other places where basketball is reasonably followed, it's quite popular. This is a yearly summer thing. It's not just "a couple" of games. Together with warmups, it could last up to 20 games, which is just as long as a U.S. college basketball conference regular season. What could be interesting is that the national team number could be the same with the club jersey number because leagues elsewhere use FIBA rules. (With that said, there are now many leagues that don't do this, and FIBA is on its way on letter all 2-digit numbers be used.) – H T  D  18:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was a couple of games, I said it's about a month (true) at a time when the player is almost always under contract with a pro team. It isn't that national team play isn't important in the US - we follow it - it's just that national team is not their team of record and national team rosters reflect this by listing their club of record (Chicago Bulls, Real Madrid, Alaska Aces, etc).  I would counter your "the only place where national team basketball isn't a thing is the U.S." comment by saying that my perception is that the only country that users seem to try to update player articles to reflect national team temporarily is the Philippines.  Based on my experience of course. Rikster2 (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It's actually more than a month; it's the entire northern hemisphere summer. The Iranian national team played 19 competitive games in three tournaments from July to October. They've played several "friendlies" too, so it's more than 20. That's a lot. If you're omitting that from the "jersey number" situation that's quite an omission.
 * And yeah, updating on articles about the national team is actually quite useful, unlike keeping track all of their favorite player's jersey numbers, which is pretty banal. Like it contributes nothing. It's not even (mostly) about basketball. – H T  D  18:47, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow - no need to be a dick. You made a generalization about the US so I did the same about the Philippines. Neither is 100% correct and probably not fully reflective of what we are trying to say. And at no point was I saying national team participation shouldn't be updated in the article, I just said the national team and national team number shouldn't be the current team/number of record in the infobox during national team play. They are under contract with their pro teams at that point so why needlessly flip colors and numbers? Rikster2 (talk) 18:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I dunno about saying that national team exploits should be added, nor flipping colors (I assume the club colors, again another needless customization, would be used), but adding the current national team jersey number looks legit enough even for a month if you guys are insisting on adding the player's club jersey number four teams ago in the infobox. That's all there is to it. If you guys are insisting on adding all of the jersey numbers from a player's pro career, it'll make sense to include the jersey number he's wearing for about 20 games/year when he's actually wearing it. – H T  D  18:58, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Just did a quick survey of team sports and it appears only basketball and American football show numbers for retired players. We could remove them, though I would imagine we will have a big change management issue both in converting the 1000s of articles away from using this information and in users adding it back in since they are used to them being there.  There would be less of that if we moved the info to "career_number" as the info would still be in the article, though the conversion activity would still need to happen. Rikster2 (talk) 18:01, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's separate what we ideally want to display from the logistics of how it is implemented. Bots are always an option for tedious work, but in this case Template:Infobox basketball biography could just be programatically tweaked to not display a number if "career_end" is set—similar to how it already determines if a player is retired to control the display of career stats.—Bagumba (talk) 18:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm opposing an idea to don't display retired numbers. Just because we have sort of a "problem" here, that shouldn't lead us to such drastically solutions.-- AirWolf  talk  18:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Can't the jersey numbers for retired (and current) players be on the part of the infobox that lists their former teams? Having a separate section all by themselves isn't very helpful. I want to know what team Player X wore number X for. – H T  D  20:06, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Parameters commentary
Hi! I need your commentary (and possible solution) on two parameters in the Template:Infobox basketball biography (descriptions given next to each one):
 * "career_number" - The number(s) worn while a player. Used when a former player is now an active coach, or an active player that has worn other numbers.
 * "career_position" - The position(s) played while a player. Used when a former player is now an active coach.

I don't think these descriptions are quite adequate. I do think that all the retired players should have given parameters instead of "number" and "position" parameters. How it is now, we are making double standards for retired players. Legally speaking, that is called a selective justice. All the other retired players should have replaced parameters. Players who got some sporting position in some organization, should have "position", "career_position" and "career_number" parameters. As of now, if somebody want to do what I proposed, he is doing illegal action because of the descriptions I've mentioned. And they should change. If not, we will have ton of similar cases to this:.

Note: This discussion is inspired by the previous discussion here called "Jersey numbers for retired players" and this revert (in given link).-- AirWolf  talk  18:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it is not your intention, but the legal analogy could lead to cries of WP:WIKILAWYERING. I'd suggest avoiding a fragmented discussion, and for those interested to comment above at to determine if jersey numbers for retired players should be displayed.  Once there is agreement on what we want, it can be easily determined how it should be executed e.g. which parameters to use, introduce new ones if needed, etc.—Bagumba (talk) 18:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Listing national team number as current number
First, totally disagree that national team number should EVER be the current number in the infobox. 99% of national team players are under contract with a team and have a number with that team. I see no point in updating their number for a month while the Olympics or World Cup are going on, then reverting it back to their pro team at the close. That's needless change to the article. For current and retired players I see value in their pro numbers being in the infobox, but HTD's comments make me further support AirWolf's suggestion to only use the "Career_number" field for retired player numbers. Personally, I think the number is useful for active players (which is why pretty much every major team sport project - except hockey, who is always a little different - uses them as a standard). For retired ones I can go either way, but since we have a field that clearly marks "career number" and cleanly puts it in the infobox, why not? I should think some people would go to Wikipedia to find out what number some former player wore. Rikster2 (talk) 17:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The only place where national team basketball isn't a thing is the U.S. In other places where basketball is reasonably followed, it's quite popular. This is a yearly summer thing. It's not just "a couple" of games. Together with warmups, it could last up to 20 games, which is just as long as a U.S. college basketball conference regular season. What could be interesting is that the national team number could be the same with the club jersey number because leagues elsewhere use FIBA rules. (With that said, there are now many leagues that don't do this, and FIBA is on its way on letter all 2-digit numbers be used.) – H T  D  18:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was a couple of games, I said it's about a month (true) at a time when the player is almost always under contract with a pro team. It isn't that national team play isn't important in the US - we follow it - it's just that national team is not their team of record and national team rosters reflect this by listing their club of record (Chicago Bulls, Real Madrid, Alaska Aces, etc).  I would counter your "the only place where national team basketball isn't a thing is the U.S." comment by saying that my perception is that the only country that users seem to try to update player articles to reflect national team temporarily is the Philippines.  Based on my experience of course. Rikster2 (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It's actually more than a month; it's the entire northern hemisphere summer. The Iranian national team played 19 competitive games in three tournaments from July to October. They've played several "friendlies" too, so it's more than 20. That's a lot. If you're omitting that from the "jersey number" situation that's quite an omission.
 * And yeah, updating on articles about the national team is actually quite useful, unlike keeping track all of their favorite player's jersey numbers, which is pretty banal. Like it contributes nothing. It's not even (mostly) about basketball. – H T  D  18:47, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow - no need to be a dick. You made a generalization about the US so I did the same about the Philippines. Neither is 100% correct and probably not fully reflective of what we are trying to say. And at no point was I saying national team participation shouldn't be updated in the article, I just said the national team and national team number shouldn't be the current team/number of record in the infobox during national team play. They are under contract with their pro teams at that point so why needlessly flip colors and numbers? Rikster2 (talk) 18:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I dunno about saying that national team exploits should not be added, nor flipping colors (I assume the club colors, again another needless customization, would be used), but adding the current national team jersey number looks legit enough even for a month if you guys are insisting on adding the player's club jersey number four teams ago in the infobox. That's all there is to it. If you guys are insisting on adding all of the jersey numbers from a player's pro career, it'll make sense to include the jersey number he's wearing for about 20 games/year when he's actually wearing it. – H T  D  18:58, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: Above refactored from, which dealt with retired—not active—players.—Bagumba (talk) 19:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Now I'm confused - who said anything about a bunch of old numbers for active players? I thought that was just for retired players and the proposal was which numbers to use. Rikster2 (talk) 19:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry. Looking at Trevor Ariza, I thought old numbers for current players were in the infobox. Looking at Steve Kerr, all of them (pro) just show up when they quit. It would be interesting though if it included Kerr's number while playing for Arizona as he sorta makes a deal out of it whenever he can. – H T  D  19:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Consensus will decide to what level consistency should be a factor in handling of numbers for active players vs former players. I would caution against blanket WP:ALLORNOTHING arguments. FWIW from ESPN on global interest in hoops: "It is difficult to measure world interest in basketball, but these FIBA games may hint at how invested these other countries are in the sport -- just as our relative weakness in soccer is indicative of how we care relatively less about it."  Also, I wonder if verifiability will be a pain for determining if drive-by edits are placing bogus professional numbers or valid national team numbers.—Bagumba (talk) 19:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Generally, verifying uniform number in pro leagues is pretty easy, just requiring going to the team or league site and occasionally using "Google translate." Rikster2 (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was referring to finding national team numbers. (I pretty much edit NBA players only, so basketball-reference is my go to there for historical #s.)—Bagumba (talk) 20:02, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * If we're basing it on Wikipedia page view stats, basketball is a more popular sport than rugby union.
 * Re:Verifiability -- just recently an IP made driveby edits on national and club team UNIFORMS, and it's impossible to verify at that time if they were right. Verifying numbers is easier. – H T  D  19:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The whole discussion has gone in insanely wrong way. Parameter "number" for active players should only contain jersey number of player's pro club (if he is under contract). National team jersey number should be included in "career_number" parameter ONLY AFTER player retires. I mean, it would be ridiculous to put jersey number in "number" parameter while the tournament is being played. Common people, get back to the previous discussion for retired players. This is leading to wasting your time, with no clear consensus in sight.-- AirWolf  talk  19:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That's, for a lack of a better word, weird: "it would be ridiculous to put jersey number in "number" parameter while the tournament is being played." I thought it would be more ridiculous on putting the jersey number of a team that he's not currently playing for.
 * Also, how about current college or high school players? How about, say, someone like Dante Exum, whose only "real" competitive tournaments until the draft were... gasp! national team tournaments? College teams aren't pro teams, so no numbers? What if the player plays in an under-xx national team? Again, these are unpopular in the U.S. (never said no one cared), but is quite reasonably followed in places where basketball is a thing. – H T  D  19:43, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because basketball clearly isn't a thing in the US. You may want to back away from your computer and take a few deep breaths.  You're getting needlessly worked up about this.  We're just talking about our opinions on how numbers should be displayed for current and retired players.  On college players, I would say that we migrated the NCAA athlete infobox to basketball biography for consistency and for ease of conversion down the road and current number was an important consderation to WP:CBB at the time.  I do believe that college number should appear for current college players, and that's the only case.  I'd be cool with saying HS players don't show a number at all personally. Rikster2 (talk) 19:54, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Stop misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say "basketball isn't popular in the U.S.", I said "national team tournaments aren't popular". Come on, dude, you can try harder than that straw man. The only tournament that's popular is the Olympics. The Blazers probably had a bigger attendance than the last FIBA Americas Championship in the U.S. – H T  D  20:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe most people were commenting on pro players. I don't think anyone is arguing to remove current numbers for active college players. High school player articles are rare, but Jalen Brunson has only one number, 15, presumably his current HS number.  His U18 No. 50 is not listed.—Bagumba (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. I thought national team numbers were only from 4-15... – H T  D  20:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


 * HTD did suggest college players maybe shouldn't have numbers if we go "pro only," but I'm not sure if he was serious. The issue with HS numbers is that they are much harder to verify than college, pro or national team numbers. Rikster2 (talk) 20:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Holy crap reading comprehension. I didn't suggest anything re: college players. People were worked up on pro players, there was no discussion on what to do with current college players, who are obviously not pro players, therefore can't use the "use pro team jersey number" rule. – H T  D  20:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Holy crap settle down. That is how I read "College teams aren't pro teams, so no numbers?"  If I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize.  What the hell is your issue?  You and I have dealt with each other just fine in the past and I am really having trouble understanding why you are so torqued up about this. Rikster2 (talk) 20:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That's because they're not under the "current pro team" rule that we all agree on. That's why the default is, since they're not signed to a pro team, they should have no numbers as per the rule. Also, it ended with a question mark, so I asked about what to do, not "suggested" it. – H T  D  20:11, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I can say I took it as a rhetorical question. We should all WP:DISENGAGE for a bit perhaps.  Too much hoops experience among us to not figure this out eventually.—Bagumba (talk) 20:20, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I was just peeved by the use of the word "suggest". I do not intend to leave college players' infoboxes jersey numbers blank if pro players would be having one. – H T  D  20:22, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for bad writing in that sentence. "I thought it would be more ridiculous on putting the jersey number of a team that he's not currently playing for." - That's why career_number is meant for. Parameter "name" should only contain jersey number of current pro team, nothing else. You are constantly jumping from theme to theme, probably intentionally trying to sabotage the discussion. College players do have jersey numbers, but as they turn pro, only jersey numbers from their respective teams should be considered. Under-xx national teams are considered competition for young players (under-senior level, junior etc.). I am from Serbia (where all the FIBA competitions matters), and I am against jersey numbers of national teams there. However, jersey numbers of senior national teams should be mentioned by putting together with pro club jersey numbers in "career_number" parameter of the template (AFTER player retire). Period.-- AirWolf  talk  20:06, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * As I said above, why not put these jersey numbers on the part of the infobox where the teams he played/playing for are listed? Heck, even amateur team numbers could be added there. – H T  D  20:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think this would crowd the club history section. It already has year span, team name and sometimes league/country (inconsistently), I think that is a lot to put in that section cleanly. Rikster2 (talk) 20:13, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree on clutter, unless a mockup can show otherwise.—Bagumba (talk) 20:16, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd personally get rid of the league as that's not used in other sportspeople infoboxes such as football; also several, mostly European, teams play in several leagues in one season. If there'd be jersey numbers at the infobox, the best course of action is to bring them to the teams list, instead of being isolated on their own section that makes them useless, and ultimately, clutter. Jersey numbers on the teams list is the best solution. – H T  D  20:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Stop it. You went out of discussion once again. How to prove that player was wearing that and that number? By some Googled picture? See, it would work for NBA, national teams, Euroleague. What about other leagues? And what about all that work on thousands of articles? Your propositions are becoming more and more childish, amateur.-- AirWolf  talk  20:25, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Then don't add jersey numbers. That's the entire problem for this, right? I originally wanted to get rid of all of them. – H T  D  20:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd advocate for getting rid of country/league in club history but leaving it at span and team name so white space would be used effectively in that section. I think it'd be much cleaner that way - but Bagumba may be on to something in mocking it up.  Maybe I'd change my tune if adding the number were done well. Rikster2 (talk) 20:29, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm definitely withdrawing from the discussion, as it obviously became unaccountable.-- AirWolf  talk  20:37, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Jersey numbers" on their own, especially for retired players, need context. When I saw Steve Kerr's infobox, I wanted to know which teams he wore #2, 4 and 5. Just having them there is useless for the reader, as he would immediately want to know what teams he played for playing those numbers. Also, for retired numbers, we can even use cute little graphics. For example:
 * As a player:
 * 1993–1998: Chicago Bulls (#25)
 * For Larry Bird:
 * As a player:
 * 1979–1992: Boston Celtics Celtics33.png
 * Or we can opt the simpler (#33). Also, we could add stats just like the football infobox someday. – H T  D  20:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Also if we're using cute little graphics, perhaps the jersey numbers should be in a separate column between the seasons and team columns, to make it neater. – H T  D  20:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * So, you are a "basketball-reference" guy? Stats like on it.wiki? Get out of here. Lot of non-sense and time wasting came from you tonight. I'm done, screw it.-- AirWolf  talk  20:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't understand the animosity. I'm not from it.wiki nor do I use the basketball-reference website frequently. I'm good with your suggestion on retired players, but the jersey numbers should be in the context of the teams, as without them they're useless. – H T  D  20:48, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Consensus can change, but here was the past discussion on including leagues at Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography. The most compelling argument from User:Martin tamb was "More information wouldn't hurt, and it's clearer for readers who are not familiar with overseas basketball teams." It's implementation, however, has always been US-centric as discussed at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_21.—Bagumba (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Almost all basketball leagues aren't just known by their 3 (or 4)-letter initials. Some have longer names and are an untidy fit. I'd rather use IOC codes, TBH (with the exception of the NBA). – H T  D  20:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Mulled over the number in club history idea some more. Most players keep the same number more or less from team to team. IMO, this would look rather silly to repeat the same info line-by-line in the infobox, esp for journeymen players. I think all the past numbers listed on one line is all the real estate I would invest for an infobox. I understand that diehard fans might want to know which specific teams a number applied to. Is that really in the scope of an encyclopedia i.e. WP:FANCRUFT?  If yes, place the detail in the stats section in the article, instead of in the infobox.  There, number buffs can indicate the exact season during his Chicago tenure that Jordan wore a No. 12 jersey for one game. However, I personally will be adding "real" content to articles and am unlikely to help with the grunt work of populating this.—Bagumba (talk) 19:24, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The inclusion of jersey numbers on its own without context is cruft. That's why, for current players, the number is mentioned together with the team. Unless there's some cute story with the number that has plenty of sources, the jersey number won't be mentioned in the prose, and ultimate, should not had been in the infobox. – H T  D  02:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

CfD - American men's basketball players
There is a discussion underway about this category. Please give your opinion at Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 11. This category was created about a year ago and currently has about 60 articles in it (obviously very underpopulated). I would like to see strong representation from people who actually work basketball artices (and other similarly structured sports) weigh in as this would essentially signal a new category structure to be built and implemented (50 state-specific men's and 50 state-specific women's categories). There are pros and cons to the structure, but whatever your views I would like to ensure that the decision reached is one reached by robust dialogue and careful consideration. Especially as this did not occur the last time this category was CfD'ed. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

YYYY in basketball
I edited the YYYY in basketball pages (e.g. 1998_in_basketball) to add the following college information:
 * 1) John R. Wooden Award (Men and women)
 * 2) Naismith College Player of the Year (Men and women)
 * 3) Naismith College Coach of the Year (Men and women)
 * 4) Legends of Coaching Award
 * 5) Wade Trophy (Women)
 * 6) Frances Pomeroy Naismith Award (Men and women)
 * 7) Associated Press Women's College Basketball Player of the Year (Women)
 * 8) Associated Press College Basketball Player of the Year (Men)
 * 9) NCAA Basketball Tournament Most Outstanding Player (Men and women)
 * 10) Basketball Academic All-America Team (Women)
 * 11) Kay Yow Award (Women)
 * 12) Carol Eckman Award (Women)
 * 13) Maggie Dixon Award (Women)
 * 14) USBWA National Freshman of the Year (Men and women)
 * 15) Associated Press College Basketball Coach of the Year (Men)
 * 16) Associated Press College Basketball Coach of the Year (Women)
 * 17) List of Senior CLASS Award women's basketball winners (Women)
 * 18) Nancy Lieberman Award (Women)
 * 19) Naismith Outstanding Contribution to Basketball (Men and women)

WNBA
 * 1) WNBA Most Valuable Player Award
 * 2) WNBA Defensive Player of the Year Award
 * 3) WNBA Rookie of the Year Award
 * 4) WNBA Sixth Woman of the Year Award
 * 5) WNBA Most Improved Player Award
 * 6) Kim Perrot Sportsmanship Award
 * 7) WNBA Coach of the Year Award
 * 8) WNBA All-Star Game MVP
 * 9) WNBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award

FIBA—Missing HOF inductees (2007, 2009, 2010)

WBHOF—All inductees

There are a number of men's collegiate awards I did not add, in case someone wants to work on that.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  13:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Player positions
I noticed a team using "P" as a player position (Post, not Point guard). Any objection to adding "P" as an allowable position in the CBB roster templates?-- S Philbrick (Talk)  14:07, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally I think we're better off sticking to the 5 basic positions - center, power forward, small forward, shooting guard, point guard (with generic "guard" and "forward" when specifics aren't available). I think "post" generally means a C/PF so why not just use the split position?  Where did you see it? I'd probably want to take a look and see the context. Rikster2 (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Lamar I was tempted to use the FC designation, but I see that Marquelle Williams is listed as a Forward/Center, so they think the positions are different. Not a big deal. -- S Philbrick (Talk)  15:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Rade Lončar
Hi, not a regular basketball editor so now that I came across a new article Rade Lončar I thought I should ask, is he notable?. And please if someone could look at sources. Someone BLP prodded the article but the creator removed the tag and has added facebook and twitter as sources (and some other source). Thank you. QED237&#160;(talk) 19:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention
This is a notice about Category:Basketball articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

CfD - Basketball players from Louisville, Kentucky
You are invited to take part in a discussion about this category at Categories for discussion/Log/2014 October 24. Rikster2 (talk) 13:34, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Portal:Basketball
The portal is so pathetic we could improve it in time for 2015. Are there featured content that we could use? – H T  D  14:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Selected article:
 * January -- Any
 * February -- Any
 * March -- US NCAA
 * April -- NBA Playoffs
 * May -- EuroBasket
 * June -- NBA Finals
 * July -- Any
 * August -- Olympics/FIBA tournaments
 * September -- Olympics/FIBA tournaments
 * October -- Women's basketball
 * November -- Any
 * December -- Media (Film/TV show/music/etc) about basketball
 * Selected picture: preferably a person/event related to that month
 * January
 * February
 * March
 * April
 * May
 * June
 * July
 * August
 * September
 * October
 * November
 * December
 * Selected biography: preferably a person who was born/died on that month
 * January
 * February
 * March
 * April
 * May
 * June
 * July
 * August
 * September
 * October
 * November
 * December
 * DYK/OTMonth sections
 * We could use hoops-related DYKs. – H T  D  13:21, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


 * HTD - I agree this could be a good area to focus. Black History Month in the US is February and Women's History Month is March.  These might drive some article ideas (pioneers in the sport, etc.)  I am happy to participate in a plan, but probably not drive it.  I do think getting more basketball DYKs would be a great idea.  We also never seem to get basketball people called out as "Recent Deaths" section on the front page.  I think when Naismith HOFers die they should be called out in this way. Rikster2 (talk) 14:42, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is once we got everything set up, we wouldn't have to do anything for the rest of the year. It should not be a lot of work. We'd just get basketball related stuff from WP:FA and WP:GA. The "major work" would be compiling DYKs and OTMonth blurbs. DYK must have plenty of basketball-related blurbs from 2014. I'd caution on making it overly U.S. centric, though... – H T  D  15:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Only Black history month is US-centric. Women's History month is celebrated the same month in the UK and Australia as well (at a minimum), and every year we get a request from the women's history wikiproject to do something and it doesn't happen. Rikster2 (talk) 15:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I was referring to my suggestions of having US competitions locking up four months.. we can probably ditch the NBA Playoffs and replace it with Black History Month. The women's history month is great as women's basketball has to have the highest participation in team sports amongst women. I just dunno if there are articles on women's basketball that are good enough. – H T  D  16:00, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Featured article candidates/Trey Burke/archive1
Featured article candidates/Trey Burke/archive1 has been open for 2 and a half weeks without any substantive commentary.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:11, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment
There is a Request for Comment about "Chronological Summaries of the Olympics" and you're invited! Becky Sayles (talk) 07:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

AfD input
Articles for deletion/Robert LaBoy could use some more input to form a consensus and avoid a relisting.—Bagumba (talk) 23:54, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia Kickstarter campaign by User:TonyTheTiger
Please spread the word about #TTTWFTW, my Kickstarter campaign.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Kellie Torrey
Dear basketball experts: This old AfC submission will soon be deleted as a stale draft. Is this a notable player, or should the page be let go? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * She is not notable per BASKETBALL or COLLATH. I'd say let it go unless she passes GNG some other way. Rikster2 (talk) 21:40, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Rikster2. The page is gone now. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 01:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Nationality in infobox
Steve Nash is a dual citizen. You are invited to help form a consensus on how his nationality should be presented in the bio's infobox. Please comment at Talk:Steve_Nash. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 22:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

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Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

247sports.com for recruiting
I've noticed an increasing number of edits adding 247sports recruiting information (and in some cases deleting Scout.com). Anyone know why this is? And for some (like this edit to Damian Lillard), the recruiting rankings are being listed for years prior to what the main 247Sports.com article says is its founding date of 2010. I am a little worried there may be a spamming ad campaign going on here. Anyone have more insight into this site? My experience has been that Scout and Rivals (and later ESPN) were the most prominent recruiting rankings, but also know that 247Sports is more recently affiliated with CBSSports.com so I am guessing it at least is becoming legit. But should Wikipedia be "leading" that rise to respectability or following once it is established? Comments? Rikster2 (talk) 21:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 247Sports is legitimate. I think it's surpassed ESPN recruiting and now is on par with and arguably better than Rivals and Scout. 247Sports should be included in the recruiting rankings tables in addition to the other three. -AllisonFoley (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Due weight should be the guiding principle. Are independent sources mentioning 247? If so, is it enough to warrant mention with the other major ones?—Bagumba (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This ESPN article mentions rating for all four agencies, including 247. USA Today called 247 one of the " four major recruiting services".  I'm satisfied.—Bagumba (talk) 00:08, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

What about the rankings prior to 2010 when the site was launched (like Damian Lillard and Trevor Booker)? Where do those ratings even come from? That's actually my bigger issue - Scout and rivals info is being replaced. I know Scout and Rivals were operating pre-2010. Rikster2 (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure. If you question it, you can removed it as unreliable for anything before 2010 launch, and leave link to this discussion in the edit summary.—Bagumba (talk) 01:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Merging Template:Infobox WNBA player into Template:Infobox basketball biography
Per this discussion, there was agreement to merge the WNBA template into the broader, more encompassing "basketball biography" player/coach template. When an admin went to do it, he/she found issues with merging due to differences in how the two templates display information. I'd like to recommend some changes to the template to allow for this change. I will sign up to do a lot of the conversions (as I have with merging the Australian, Philippine and college infoboxes previously) if we can reach agreement. Here are my recommendations: I believe that the rest of the template would not need to be changed. There are some differences with how the WNBA template chose to show info (like adding "WNBA's" before the team name at the top), but I do not believe that the info for WNBA players is substantially different beyond what I have proposed and can match what exists for "basketball biography." I believe it is very important that we get these merged, as we are seeing more movement between men's and women's leagues (examples - Joe Bryant, Michael Cooper and most recently Becky Hammon. It looks AWFUL to have two infoboxes on an article, and in these cases is unnecessary.  Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 00:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Create fields for the WNBA draft similar to the PBA draft for Filipino players (e.g. "wnba_draft_year," "wnba_draft_team," etc.). There should be four fields for year, round, pick and team and should display in the same way that NBA draft does for male players.
 * 2) One issue with the WNBA is that it is purely a Summer League, creating some strange club history chronologies (eg - a player could compete for ten years with the New York Liberty in the Summer and with Fenerbahçe in the Summer, making for 20 repetitive entries in the current usage). My suggestion is that we create a set of club years that display as "WNBA teams" above the standard set of clubs.  Not sure if the template could be coded so that the "standard" fields (eg - "years1," "team1," etc) would display the header "Non-WNBA teams" if the "WNBA" fields were in use.  This would be similar to how "as player" displays before the standard fields when the "coach" fields (eg "cyears1," "cteam1," etc) are used and "as coach displays before the coach teams.  This could be an issue if a player is a WNBA player, also plays in Europe and goes on to coach.  I'm not smart enough to figure this one out, but I figure somebody out there can help solve it.
 * 3) Create a Hall of Fame flag for the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame like the current Naismith (field name "HOF_player"), FIBA HOF ("FIBA_HOF_player"), and College basketball HOF ("CBBASKHOF_year").
 * 4) Create coding to link a WNBA profile (if possible)
 * The Becky Hammon example is a great one as to why these need to be merged. You can't add her current assistant role with the Spurs to the WNBA box because the Spurs colors won't display.  You can't add her playing career to basketball biography because she had significant WNBA and overseas careers, which that box can't accommodate.  But the is 99% overlap in the other info in the 2 boxes. Rikster2 (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Re: WNBA draft -- Quite a few leagues elsewhere are doing drafts lately (such as the Korean Basketball League). Perhaps making a generic draft parameter should work.
 * Re: Summer league -- I don't think we'd need a separate area for WNBA teams. Let's just treat their spells in a WNBA team as one "spell", then the team from elsewhere as one "spell". If they change a team, list it after whichever of the two the player was later signed. For example:
 * CSKA Moscow (2006-11)
 * Phoenix Mercury (2007-10)
 * Connecticut Sun (2010-present)
 * Galatasaray (2011-present)
 * – H T  D  11:26, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Personally, I find that structure very confusing as in 99% of club histories are a chronology, but can go along with whatever the consensus determines. Rikster2 (talk) 11:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * TBH I dunno how a separate section for WNBA teams would work when a reader realizes that the years of service overlap. I'd probably settle on a note. A WNBA contract doesn't usually rescind a player's contract from another team. – H T  D  13:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I've been following this conversation and merge process for a while. While I endorse most of Rikster's comments above, I also recognize the problem regarding overlapping WNBA and overseas team tenures. A high percentage of second-tier and even some of the first-tier WNBA talent plays overseas during the WNBA off-season. To my way of thinking, I don't see the justification for creating a separate WNBA career history; the only practical solution is to accept overlapping team tenures in the career history section. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * But the whole Summer season/Winter season thing is what the WNBA editors would be giving up in merging templates - I don't see why we shouldn't accommodate this difference. I would argue most WNBA players play somewhere else in the traditional basketball season.  If Candace Parker and Brittney Griner do it, most do.  Unless someone can come up with a good note or format then I think we need to create something that works for this league. Rikster2 (talk) 15:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Rikster, but "accommodate this difference" how? I agree completely with your description of the issue and the prevalence of WNBA players who also play for non-WNBA teams, but question the solution.  What is the harm in having a single career history with overlapping tenures for WNBA and foreign teams?  This would seem to be the simplest, if not the most elegant, resolution.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Right now the basketball infobox has a clear chronology of teams (which can contain duplicates for multiple tenures with the same team) that can be followed down the list very easily. Introducing overlapping tenures to this makes it very difficult to follow.  I wasn't around when the WNBA box was created, but it was created with this league difference in mind and is clear and easy to follow.  Much like we added the "pba_draft" fields to accommodate merging the Philippine Basketball Association box, I think we need to consider carefully how to make this work or consider not merging the templates.  We could just as easily make some tweaks to the WNBA box that enables better flow between the leagues but maintains separate boxes.  Not saying that is what we should strive for, but it is still an option. Rikster2 (talk) 16:18, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Rikster, I don't want to be hypocritical, because I have advocated separate player infoboxes for different levels of the same sport or very similar sports when I believed the circumstances warranted separate templates (e.g., college football vs. NFL vs. CFL). Perhaps what we need to see are mock-ups of the various career history solutions for WNBA players who have also played abroad.  If we cannot make WNBA/foreign career history work in the framework of the merged Infobox basketball biography, then let's say so: we can make two separate infobox templates with nearly identical appearance, and very similar coding, but for the career history -- if that is necessary.  This may be an example where separate templates work better for the WNBA and most other leagues, but let's see if we can create the mock-ups and make an informed decision based on something more than opinion.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:29, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I know little about women's basketball, but are the overseas leagues of WNBA players significant to their notability? A good number of MLB players play in winter leagues, but they are not added to their infobox. (As an aside, the more I see all the D-League entries for someone like Malcolm Thomas, the more I think that might be clutter also) —Bagumba (talk) 08:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * - Short answer, yes it is significant to their notability. I think it is a mistake to use baseball and football as the model for player movement for basketball.  Those sports are dominated by MLB and the NFL (and by North America in general).  Basketball is more similar to soccer in the way players move teams because the sport is more of a global game.  I will reiterate that the WNBA infobox was constructed differently because player movement for women is different (the WNBA was structured by its NBA parent to be a Summer League so it wouldn't compete with the men's league and players actually derive the bulk of their income in other countries) – I think it is a mistake to just say that isn't important so it fits more neatly into an infobox created solely with the men's game in mind. Last, while I disagree with you on the D-League issue, how about we hold that discussion for another day and instead concentrate on running this WNBA infobox issue, which has been outstanding for over a year, to the ground? Rikster2 (talk) 11:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, women's basketball players are paid more in Europe (and Australia?) than in the WNBA. The situation is actually unique since a player could have contracts for separate teams, something that can't be done on other sports. – H T  D  14:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Career history options

 * Okay, I think we all have a grasp of the issues presented: WNBA is a summer league, and many if not most WNBA players also play in Europe or elsewhere during the WNBA off-season (the traditional basketball fall-winter-spring schedule played by most leagues). Thus, WNBA players are often under contract with a WNBA team and another non-WNBA team at the same time.  The template issue is how best to present these overlapping team affiliations and career history in the player's infobox.  As I understand it, there are basically three options:
 * 1. Continuous, non-overlapping year spans for team tenures, for example:
 * 2001          Atlanta Dream
 * 2001–2002 Galatasaray S.K.
 * 2002          Atlanta Dream
 * 2002–2003 CSKA Moscow
 * 2003          Atlanta Dream
 * 2003–2004 CSKA Moscow
 * 2004          Atlanta Dream
 * 2004–2005 CSKA Moscow
 * 2005          New York Liberty
 * 2. Overlapping year spans for team tenures, for example:
 * 2001–2004 Atlanta Dream
 * 2001–2002 Galatasaray S.K.
 * 2002–2005 CSKA Moscow
 * 2005          New York Liberty
 * 3. Separate career histories for WNBA and non-WNBA teams, for example:
 * WNBA
 * 2001–2004 Atlanta Dream
 * 2005          New York Liberty
 * Non-WNBA
 * 2001–2002 Galatasaray S.K.
 * 2002–2005 CSKA Moscow

Anyone should feel free to expand these examples with additional team tenures, if you think that would be helpful to illustrate the issues or potential solutions. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:04, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think those are the right structure options (though the WNBA single seasons would display as "2002" vs. "2002–2002"). Although option #1 is consistent with how men's infoboxes display, I think it looks terrible for this case.  To me, it comes down to option #2 or #3.  Personally, I like #3 but could be convinced for #2 if we found a good way to have it flow smoothly. Rikster2 (talk) 15:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Option three is how it currently is, ex. Sue Bird. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 15:57, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's definitely how the WNBA player infobox displays club history. What we are trying to determine is what it should look like if these articles were migrated to the more generic basketball biography infobox, as has been suggested.  Is #3 your preference?  Do you think any of the other options would work? Rikster2 (talk) 16:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Option 2 with a footnote. If we're preventing confusion, Option 3 is not better if the reader figures out that the playing years overlap. Option 1 implies successive one year contracts from multiple teams and this isn't almost usually the case. Adding a footnote would solve the problem, such as "WNBA seasons are held in the summer, when other women's basketball leagues are in the offseason." – H T  D  16:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Rikster2 seemed to imply above (11:58, 7 January comment) that the WNBA does not dominate women's hoops at the global level. If that is the case, it seems undue to generically have a "WNBA teams" section followed by "Non-WNBA teams". And the ultimate design should accommodate players that didn't play in the WNBA.  Ann Meyers played before the WNBA existed, so should not have a "Non-WNBA teams" header for her playing career. I assume the year-around league phenomena can apply to men's too?  Ed O'Bannon played in Argentina and Greece leagues with overlapping tenures as well.—Bagumba (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * So one example. There are a few others (Australian NBL used to run in the Summer too).  It does happen rarely in the men's world and can be handled on an exception basis.  It is the norm for WNBA teams.  What is your preference for how this is displayed, Bagumba, or did you just post to complain? (by the way, I doubt O'Bannon had overlapping tenures - more likely the start/end dates for the two teams were not known by whomever put them in so they just displayed the full season.  I have to do that with CBA teams sometimes) Rikster2 (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm still getting familiar with women's basketball, so it's premature for me to just !vote. Here's some points that remain unclear to me: Apologies if anyone finds this to be "complaining" as opposed to helping to find a solution for all (women's) basketball people.—Bagumba (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Why is "WNBA" and "non-WNBA" the proposed grouping? Is it because it is the most notable league for English readers, or because it is considered the top league world-wide? Other?
 * 2) If we are tailoring this for English readers, or the WNBA is the pre-eminent league, I'd lean towards not listing overlapping leagues, or list them in footnotes in the infobox. They can be fully discussed in the body. Perhaps include a visual display there of the timeline of their teams, similar to Timeline of the National Basketball Association.
 * 3) Template:Infobox basketball biography currently has one "Career history" section, with "As player:" and "As coach:" encoded in that section. Will that continue, or will there be dedicated playing and coaching career sections as with Template:Infobox WNBA biography? I don't think having "As player:" then "WNBA teams:" under a generic "Career history" will look good.
 * 4) Overlapping tenures might be a general problem for other leagues besides the WNBA. What about players from the American Basketball League, that started about the same time as the WNBA? I'm not saying don't allow two lists of teams like in Option 3, but let's design this so the section names are customizable e.g. "  teams " and " Non- teams "
 * 5) WNBA coaches who played in leagues other than the WNBA should not have "Non-WNBA teams" for their playing career. This would be a problem with sticking with existing WNBA bio template.
 * No, that is furthering discussion not complaining. Thank you. On point #2 I am very much opposed to not showing the non-WNBA teams at all.  If that's the direction just to make it work, just leave them separate, add the WNBA color palate to basketball biography for male players who become WNBA coaches and be done with it. Rikster2 (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * #2 for me was dependent on answers to #1. Keep it if we all agree that the non-WNBA teams that overlap are significant to their notability, not merely because it's a fact that they played on those teams.—Bagumba (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Not including teams that don't directly drive to the person's notability is not the way we currently treat basketball biography for men and I think if we have to treat women's players differently in order for them to "fit," then that probably means the two boxes shouldn't be merged. If you'd like to see a change in how we look at basketball biography globally (and your Malcolm Thomas comments tell me that you do), then we should stop this discussion and get consensus on how we want to use that infobox instead of trying to shoehorn that question here.  But, yes, it is significant to Candace Parker's career that she has played for the last five years for a Russian team (and has in fact won a Euroleague championship with that club).  This is a key part of her career history. Rikster2 (talk) 02:43, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't exclude solely to make it fit. However, looking at your example of Candace Parker convinces me that some (if not all) non-WNBA are notable enough to be listed.—Bagumba (talk) 10:27, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment, There are a lot of non-WNBA women's players who use the basketball bio', see Category:Australian women's basketball players mostly (WNBL). Most of them have their career histories blank (maybe because there are overlapping careers and don't know how to list them or just don't feel like it) and some just use infobox sportsperson. There isn't really anything different about the WNBA and basketball infoboxes besides the WNBA and Non-WNBA careers. Quick comparison For different header options, it might be a good idea to be able to change the WNBA-career to a different league. Also, some footballers have like four headers, see Fabio Capello. It might also be a good idea to have a footnote or asterisk for overlapping teams. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 01:47, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Option 2 It's hard to see chronological order between WNBA and non-WNBA team in this case with Erin Phillips with Option 3. With Option 2, it's hard to see which teams overlap. As Option 3 isn't much of an improvement with its own set of issues, I think for editors it'd be more straight forward to just have one option,  Option 2. Not sure how we would footnote if we were to follow HTD's suggestion.—Bagumba (talk) 10:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Option 3 listing teams with Template:Infobox WNBA biography 

Option 2 using Template:Infobox basketball biography


 * I never understood how Option 3 solves things, if overlapping playing years is a problem. People would still find out that playing years overlap. Option 1 further misrepresents things. Option 2 with a footnote is the way to go. It still is a chronological (if you define it as when a player started) list of teams a player had played for. Perhaps a link to an explanation on an article (women's basketball?) would help. – H T  D  18:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, I can get on board with option 2 (though it isn't perfect by any means). Can somebody play around with how this would look for a more complex case like Penny Taylor, though? I am having trouble envisiniong which teams would go first, etc. Also, can we get agreement that my suggestions #1 (draft fields) and #3 (Women's basketball HOF flag) should be added? The WNBA profile would be nice, but not necessarily a need to have day 1 in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 15:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I guess everyone agrees on having the draft fields, HOF flags and WNBA profiles. I dunno what'll be the problem in adding the WNBA profile right now instead of later. As for Penny Taylor, it'll go like this:
 * Dandenong Rangers (1998-2002)
 * Cleveland Rockers (2001-03)
 * Termocarispe La Spezia (2002-03)
 * Famila Schio (2003-07)
 * Phoenix Mercury (2004-07)
 * UMMC Ekaterinburg (2007-09)
 * Phoenix Mercury (2009-11)
 * Fenerbahçe Istanbul (2009-13)
 * Phoenix Mercury (2013-present)
 * Also I'd say to keep separate spells on one team as separate appearances in the infobox, just as what they do for soccer players. – H T  D  18:06, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Template updates for WNBA
The following parameters have been added to Template:Infobox basketball player: Documentation has been updated. The only thing that hasn't been done are integrating the WNBA team colors. For that, Template:WNBA color needs to be integrated into Module:Basketball color. Don't know when I'll get to playing around with that. If someone else wants to take a stab, or perhaps User:Frietjes can help out. In the meantime, try the new params out on some retired WNBA players, where the colors aren't needed.—Bagumba (talk) 01:09, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * draft_league
 * wnba_profile
 * womensHOF
 * WNBA colors are now in Module:Basketball color. Frietjes (talk) 15:01, 18 January 2015 (UTC)