Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 134

Carmen


Carmen is an opera in four acts which Georges Bizet set to a libretto by the team of Henri Meilhac and Ludovic Halévy, based on Prosper Mérimée's novella. When it was first performed by the Opéra-Comique in Paris on 3 March 1875, its breaking of conventions shocked and scandalized its first audiences.

The opera was originally written with musical numbers and spoken dialogue. Set in southern Spain, it tells of the downfall of Don José, a naïve soldier who is seduced by the fiery gypsy Carmen, and finally kills her in a jealous rage. The depictions of proletarian life, immorality, and lawlessness broke new ground in French opera. Bizet died suddenly after the 33rd performance, unaware that the work would achieve international acclaim within the following ten years. Carmen has become one of the most frequently performed operas, with the "Habanera" and the "Toreador Song" among the best known of all operatic arias. The music has been acclaimed for its brilliance of melody, harmony, atmosphere and orchestration, and for Bizet's skill in expressing the emotions and suffering of his characters.

"... in expressing the emotions and suffering of his characters" - worded admirably by Brianboulton, and the apt image added by Voceditenore - great teamwork! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Il finto astrologo
Can we please expand Il finto astrologo a bit, to house the infobox? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Levine discography / videography
Of course James Levine is receiving much attention due to his recently-announced death. The article even says he recorded extensively, but there is just a single recording listed. Nearly the same with the videography which lists just a handful. Perhaps some would like to enhance those sections (the amount of which could easily fill a separate article). - kosboot (talk) 12:49, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked at the article and found it completely unbalanced, little music, much about assaults. Perhaps a separate article would indeed be a good idea, as for Jessye Norman. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:18, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have a recording of his Brahms symphonies somewhere–they were OK. I don't understand all of the "hype" around him, what recordings is really known for? Aza24 (talk) 22:20, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * He himself said he's not interested in profundities of interpretation but rather in how the music "goes" given a certain situation. At least with the Met orchestra was able to draw out an amazing sound. Regardless, he did a lot of opera recordings, and even symphonic recordings, although I don't think any of this Mahler recordings (for example) with Chicago lasted more than 10 years before being deleted. - kosboot (talk) 23:11, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Oddly the opera banner was missing from the talk page until I added it a minute ago. I suggest we attempt to expand Levine related material after the brouhaha surrounding his death has calmed down. There is already a complaint over neutrality and not enough attention being given to the sexual assault on the talk page.4meter4 (talk) 05:44, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The weight given to the allegations is undue at the moment; the third sentence of the lead being on the topic is troubling, especially since it's redundant to the last paragraph of the lead. The comment on the talk page was far off of reality; it seems to be someone aiming for a NPOV perspective without fully understanding the practices of Wikipedia. Though as I said there, the undue may also be in part from a career section that needs to be developed more. Aza24 (talk) 05:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

I have made some edits, relocating the lead last paragraph and copyediting duplicated stuff, to seek to lessen WP:UNDUE. This was to attempt to apply WP standards - not to defend Levine; I heard rumours about his activities with both sexes when I was a teenager, and that's a hell of a long time ago...... Let's see what happens.--Smerus (talk) 11:52, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed I've heard rumors since the early 1970s. But what's relevant in that his biography is pretty meagre.  His Met career is summed up in just a few paragraphs.  I think even combing through the NY Times archives one could flesh it out with more.  I recall reading things in the 1991 Mozart year, the Ring cycle, Mahagonny, Moses und Aron.  (I'm busy with a talk I have to give next month.) - kosboot (talk) 13:49, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Smerus. I planned to look at his article today, but was so far busy fixing things in Psalms articles, in memory of Yoninah whose death was a shock, and who leaves a giant load of things she would have done. Later today, perhaps. I was in the audience of La Bohème when Rudolfo's poems burnt too well, and a fireman came on stage to extinguish the fire, and Levine had to stop the music and resume, - very well done ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

LED, the Listening Experience Database
Researching the Grand Tour, I have twice been pointed into this database of quotes about experiencing music. https://led.kmi.open.ac.uk/

"The Listening Experience Database (LED) project is a collaboration between The Open University, the Royal College of Music and (in its second phase) the University of Glasgow. It was awarded a £0.75m grant over three years from 2012-15 and a further grant of £0.98m from 2016-19 by the Arts and Humanities Research Council.

The main purpose of the project is to develop a database, freely searchable by the public, which will bring together a mass of data about people’s experiences of listening to music of all kinds, in any historical period and any culture."

I have not yet much tested it in its own right. Charles Burney's words are in, Stendhal's apparently not. Scarabocchio (talk) 18:41, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Sacred opera / church opera
Hi all. In researching Menotti's opera Martin's Lie (which Menotti referred to as a "church opera"), I came across a rather lengthy article in Grove entitled "Sacred opera" by Graham Dixon and Richard Taruskin. Given the substantial article on this topic in a major reference work, there appears to be a need for such an article on wikipedia. It's not a topic I would want to tackle alone because of its complexity. Perhaps, we could make this a collaborative project at some point?4meter4 (talk) 23:31, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Jakob Grün
, what evidence is there of standing whilst playing solos being a 'Hungarian tradition'? This is a new one on me. If you can trace no other examples of it, it would seem to me to be merely an eccentricity of Grun. Best, --Smerus (talk) 12:30, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The source says so. The famous story of Joseph Joachim leaving his post because of Grün's discrimination for being Jewish (previous page in source) would be more interesting but rather about Joachim than Grün, and tough to say in the few characters DYK permits. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "The source says so." The source is a book about the Vienna Phil, not a history of Hungarian solo traditions. I don't beleive this can be trusted. (Joachim was also born in what was then Hungary - we don't get stories about him bobbing up and down). We don't have to beleive everything a source says. You could if you really wished write "According to [source], attributing this behaviour to a Hungarian tradition, he used to stand up during solos...." Not really (or at all) important for a DYK here, I agree, but I don't think it would stand up to the test for a full WP DYK.--Smerus (talk) 13:12, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You are right. Only: this is DYK, and it offered an elegant (or at least short) way to say that he was from Hungary, and that he was a traditionalist. I am told again and again that a DYK hook mainly has to make curious, and - and if I read it right - whether Hungarian tradition of not, it says something about him. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Need some input on an AfC draft.
I've been asked to take a look at Draft:Karina Flores which was submitted to Articles for creation. I'm a fairly experienced reviewer there but would like some extra input. The article is rather rough around the edges to say the least, but I think she may be notable enough to move this into article space. The main criteria for moving is that the subject has more than a 50% chance of passing an Afd and is reliably sourced with inline citations.

It's a pity that there aren't more reviews of her actual performances (as opposed to announcements or articles about the productions) in major publications or feature articles written about her. But she does appear to have sung leading roles with reasonably prominent companies, notably Teatro San Carlo (their summer opera festival), Teatro Regio di Torino, Helikon Opera, Israeli Opera, which we usually take as signifying notability in the case of an opera singer. She also sings Lisa on a recording of Pique Dame (Israeli Opera conducted by Vladimir Jurowski). It was reviewed in the BBC Music magazine and in Gramophone. She won an Austrian Music Theater Prize for her performance as Adriana Lecouvreur at the Tyrolean State Theatre. Don't know how important the prize is (the source is all in German) and was a finalist but not the winner of the Voci Verdiane in Busseto.

Thoughts?

Voceditenore (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * At a glance - and I have no more time right now - she looks notable enough, with a review in Gramophone counting more than a prize from a regional Austrian theatre. Wording and formatting of the article would need some effort. -Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:03, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Gerda, that was really helpful. Anyone else want to weigh in? Michael Bednarek? Voceditenore (talk) 17:22, 18 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Needs rewriting in English for a start. But even so I do not believe the subject meets WP:NOTABLE on the evidence provided. Some of the citations (e.g. OperaBase, press releases), are unacceptable as sources. Some cites don't stack up, eg. the cite for her "winning a Vienna Music Theatre Prize in 2016" shows her to be one of three nominees (on p. 23 of the magazine cited - a page reference would have been a help), and doesn't say who actually won it. Moreover the nomination was for a leading female singer, not for "the best  Adriana Lecouvreur performer" (although that was the role for which she was nominated). Needs a lot more work. --Smerus (talk) 17:47, 18 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Update. Having checked the verifiable performances and found some extra refs, I decided she scraped a notability pass per Criteria 6 of WP:MUSICBIO. I completely re-wrote and re-referenced it and moved it to article space. I suspect there's a considerable amount of COI involved in the creation of the original version and will keep an eye on it. Voceditenore (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Zürich Opera
The subject of Opernhaus Zürich is currently covered in two articles: Zürich Opera House, Zürich Opera. The latter's talk page saw a brief merge discussion, in which experienced editor User:DJRafe opposed the move, seeing that the building also houses the Ballett Zürich. However, with this opera company sharing similar conditions with the Vienna State Opera, which also has a largely intertwined history between the institute and its resident building, one article (dealing with both company and house) should suffice (as per to the precedent). Seanetienne (talk) 08:45, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don’t agree that there is precedent in place. It’s not unusual to separate opera companies from the buildings they perform in; particularly because theatres tend to host more than one performance organization (ie. Orchestras, ballet, drama, etc.) or opera companies have been housed in more than one venue during their history. I’m not seeing an issue with the current separation in the Zurich articles.4meter4 (talk) 16:22, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm with 4meter4. See e.g. Royal Opera House, The Royal Opera, The Royal Ballet.--Smerus (talk) 17:21, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that it depends on how much the architecture of a building deserves an extra article. I'd love a separate article Staatsoper Dresden, because if we take the institution, it dates back to something much older than Semper's first building, and the second was in ruins for decades in which the Staatsoper played anyway. What I don't like is Zürich Opera, half Swiss, half English. I'd prefer Oper Zürich, once we call the city Zürich. Redirect Zurich Opera. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:55, 1 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I would support that page move suggestion, but shouldn’t that issue be raised at the article’s talk page rather than here? I also agree with you on the Semperoper. 4meter4 (talk) 20:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Totally understand your reasoning, 4meter4, yet it doesn't apply to this case. To clarify, what I mean by precedent is that Vienna State Opera is an example itself, where the company started as soon as the building was finished and no second principal venue ever existed (hence "largely intertwined history between the institute and its resident building"). In this case of Opernhaus Zürich: the company only uses one venue through its history, the venue which was once burnt but rebuilt shortly afterwards (according to de.wikipedia*Google Translate). Since there is no major issue implicating the need of separation, single article treatment should be taken by default for economical reasons, as per the established article guidelines for opera houses and companies. As for "Zürich Opera", the umlaut was added (by me) for consistency reasons (been called Zürich for a while after what seems to be a heated discussion). Seanetienne (talk) 16:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC) edited (I'm actually grateful for your replies. Don't shun me pls...) Seanetienne (talk) 17:03, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
 * To be clear, I concur with User:DJRafe's assessment that the building and the opera company should be kept separate because of other arts organizations like the Ballett Zürich residing in the theatre. This maintains clarity across the encyclopedia as editors write content relating to non-opera related performances, organizations, actors, dancers, etc. that work at the Zurich opera house. I see no advantage to merging the two articles in one article.4meter4 (talk) 18:53, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I wonder if other theatres that also houses ballets (Vienna State Opera, La Scala, Grand Théâtre de Genève...) should be split into two as well... Seanetienne (talk) 15:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not if the ballet has no article, I'd say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that if the treatment on Opernhaus Zürich discussed here were to become a precedent, Vienna State Opera should split (home to Vienna State Ballet); also La Scala should split (housing La Scala Theatre Ballet), and so on... That's why I second the article guidelines. :( Seanetienne (talk) 16:56, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move for The Flying Dutchman
Please see Talk:The Flying Dutchman (opera) Aza24 (talk) 05:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Don Gregorio (opera)
The synopsis of this opera was just removed as a copyright violation, but it seems like viva Verdi wrote the synopsis and added it to to two different pages that use the same story. I’m not sure I would call that a copyright violation. Opinions?4meter4 (talk) 11:23, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Is the concern copying within Wikipedia, or copying from some external source? This isn't clear to me from the removal. If the former it's not an issue that requires deletion - see WP:CWW. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Within. Viva-Verdi copied on 6 February 2011 the synopsis section from L'ajo nell'imbarazzo where it had been added by TrisaB on 18 January 2009. What to do? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If it's within, all that is required is adding an appropriate attribution template to the talk page. However, the link to the synopsis of L'ajo nell'imbarazzo is OK as an interim measure. It's possible that as a rewrite of L'ajo the synopsis of Don Gregorio may have significant revisions in the plot and should be written from scratch. 14:10, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Portal audio format
I would like to slightly improve and simplify the presentation of selected audio files at Portal:Opera. The current implementation uses the obsolete HTML tag , and the template Multi-listen item which produces a weird list dot at the left margin:

From Giuseppe Verdi's Un ballo in maschera, sung by Enrico Caruso, Frieda Hempel, Maria Duchêne, Andrés de Segurola and Léon Rothier (1914)

I propose instead to use the the template Listen and its parameter center for the presentation of the audio file:

From Giuseppe Verdi's Un ballo in maschera, sung by Enrico Caruso, Frieda Hempel, Maria Duchêne, Andrés de Segurola and Léon Rothier (1914)

To reproduce the old appearance exactly, the file's title has to be centered with Center. I'm not sure that's needed. This is the output, sans bottom matter, without it:

If this is adopted, the text at Portal:Opera/Selected audio/Layout also needs to be adjusted. Thoughts? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:02, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I discovered an undocumented option for, center, which makes the use of unnecessary. I changed to code above accordingly. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Your solution looks good to me, good catch. Aza24 (talk) 03:38, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Leontyne Price
...who is in her nineties has an article that has almost no inline citations. When she dies, she won't be okayed for the Recent Deaths section of In The News in the shape it's in now. —valereee (talk) 00:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * — feel free to work on it yourself as well :) —I've just rewritten the lead and the childhood section and done some general formatting, I can get to more sometime later this week., I see you've been working on this as well, are you planning to continue doing so? Maybe we can get it to GA quality... Aza24 (talk) 03:41, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I saw the same on Saturday. I'm with you, but now the same was true for Christa Ludwig who actually died. RIP. I have a friend Christa Ludwig (author). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:23, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * @Aza24, yes, I know. :) I don't actually have any knowledge of opera or even music. I just occasionally come across a top-importance article for a nonagenarian and figure it's also helpful to notify the relevant project. And sorry, @Gerda Arendt, I hadn't actually checked the history to see that you were already on the job -- I got to Price because I was checking Florence Kimball for DYK, maybe that's how you ended up there too! —valereee (talk) 10:21, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly, that's where I saw her also. I found a vital bio without an infobox, and then that it was not the only thing missing ;) - Christa Ludwig is now on the Main page, but we could say SO MUCH more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Template for Discussion: Operabase
This template is being discussed for deletion at Templates_for_discussion/Log/2021_May_1.

The Operabase template passed the composer and/or worktitle as text parameters to a performance search. Back in 2018, the site changed its calling interface to use id numbers for composers, works, artists, companies etc, breaking the links. There didn't seem any quick fix, so swiftly and usefully disabled the template.

Interestingly, deWP has a similar template, currently linking over 1000 company and singer pages, and this is working. Somehow, from somewhere, they have the Operabase company and artist id numbers on file ... if we can find out where/how they have these, a fix for enWP's template could be straight-forward.

I'll be able to look at this in mid-May. If anyone else would like to jump-in before then, you are most welcome (my template writing muscles are somewhat out of practice, anyway!). Scarabocchio (talk) 15:52, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Joyce Mathis date of birth and date of death
Hi everyone. I just created this article on soprano Joyce Mathis. I couldn't find any info on her date of birth/death. I did find an article dated July 16, 1975 which said she was 31 years old at the time. I found several obituaries of siblings who said she pre-deceased them, the oldest of which dates to April 25, 2009. She pretty much disappears from media after 1993, and there was a concert dedicated to her in 1994 which I can only get a partial view of the source. I suspect she may have died in 93 or 94, but it is possible she just simply stopped performing and lived longer. If anyone is able to find a source confirming a birth date or death date I would appreciate it.4meter4 (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Could this be her? - https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/116500170/joyce-arlene-mathis - kosboot (talk) 19:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No, that woman gained the name Mathis from her third husband. Joyce Mathis was the daughter of Ezra and Nellie Mathis.4meter4 (talk) 20:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks to we now have a confirmed birth year of 1944.4meter4 (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

San Francisco Opera
Hi all, not sure if it's appropriate to request this here, but the page for the San Francisco Opera is seriously out of date. I tagged it as such well over a year ago, but no significant updates have been made since that time. My spouse works for the company so I have a potential conflict of interest, and thus would prefer not to make the updates myself. Thanks! Funcrunch (talk) 20:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A potential WP:COI is not a prohibition to edit. It depends on what and how edits are written. I don't see any problem in adding well-sourced factual material. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Agreed, and the fact that you tagged the article as overly promotional shows you have an editorial eye for neutrality as well. I would say go ahead and improve the article yourself. We can look in and give feedback as you do it if you want some extra pairs of eyes to make sure changes are within policy. My general comment is that the article lacks inline citations, and needs better referencing throughout. Is there a published history of the company? Perhaps your spouse has access to that at work (if it’s offline) and you could add a published source with page number citations to the article. That would be a vast improvement. Also if you have a subscription to the San Francisco Gate you could easily source recent and past information. I have access to a lot of newspapers, but not that one, and much of that company’s news coverage is local and behind a paywall., you may be the best person to take on this task given your passion and potential access to quality reference works.4meter4 (talk) 10:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies. I didn't add that overly promotional tag; another editor did that several years before I added the tag noting that the article needs updating. I believe the overly promotional language was toned down in the interim. In any case, I do have enough access and experience to update the article myself (though I don't have an SFGate subscription), but since it's a big job and I thought I had a COI I was hoping some other editors might be interested in helping. Funcrunch (talk) 14:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Opera articles needing expert attention has been nominated for discussion
Category:Opera articles needing expert attention has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Peaceray (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Clean up and referencing needed at Miliza Korjus
If anyone cares to pitch in, this article has had lots of tags for a while.4meter4 (talk) 01:42, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Problematic page move of baritone Erik Ole Bye moved to Erik Bye (rower)
just moved the article on baritone Erik Ole Bye to Eric Bye (rower). He's arguably more famous as a singer than an athlete, notably appearing on many early recordings. I don't agree with the appropriateness of this name change.4meter4 (talk) 20:33, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I've moved the article to the person's common name. If he's better known as a singer I suggest you simply move it to a more appropriate disambiguator.  Schwede 66  20:37, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I disagree that a page move was necessary at all., given your experience at WP:WikiProject Disambiguation what is the protocol for disambiguating a person who is known for more than one thing? I would think the original title, "Erik Ole Bye", would be the most appropriate given it doesn't exclude either his brief but notable career as an Olympic rower or his lengthy international work as an opera singer.4meter4 (talk) 20:46, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If he was known as Erik Ole Bye during the long career, I think you are right, and Erik Bye (rower) is a fine redirect. It looks strange to read (rower) and then read first baritone, - you think you landed at the wrong article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Without reference to this specific case - if someone is notable in more than one field, the best solution is to choose a primary title for the article, and to redirect all other possibilities to it. I recall a discussion like John Doe (snooker player) vs. John Doe (pool player) - we agreed that he was better known for pool than for snooker, and that the article should be titled accordingly. Redirects are WP:CHEAP. Narky Blert (talk) 21:08, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok. Then I suggest we move it to Erik Bye (baritone) given his singing career has lots of press coverage in American papers like The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, and Chicago Tribune during the 1920s and 1930s in a Proquest search (54 articles total). I'm assuming there are also sources in other languages covering his performances in Europe as well from his decades long career as a baritone. I don't think he ever used his middle name professionally, but I am not an expert on this singer. I will note that the Norwegian and Sweedish wikipedia articles use the title Erik Ole Bye. 4meter4 (talk) 21:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * After reading that page and its Norwegian equivalent no:Erik Ole Bye, it is my firm opinion that that should be the article title in English WP also. It is clear, concise and unambiguous. Erik Bye (rower) and Erik Bye (baritone) should redirect to it. If that is the WP:CONSENSUS, I have the ability to make WP:ROUNDROBIN swaps. Narky Blert (talk) 21:29, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I would support that.4meter4 (talk) 21:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * So do I. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not support that. The article has three sources. In every source, the person is referred to as "Erik Bye". That would suggest that this is in fact the WP:common name for the person (and if those who are commenting here aren't familiar with that particular policy, I suggest you read that before commenting further). There is another person with the name Erik Bye and given that the other article has far higher page views, this one will need to be disambiguated. I admit that I did not investigate whether "rower" is the most appropriate disambiguator (and do apologise if it caused grief to anyone). If "baritone" is more appropriate, let us use that.  Schwede 66  01:55, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The journalist Erik Bye with more page views is the son of the baritone and rower Erik Bye.4meter4 (talk) 02:20, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I have four WP:RS sources which call him Erik Ole Bye - Digital Archives (of the National Archival Services of Norway) (1), National Theatre (Oslo) (2), Discography of American Historical Recordings (hosted by UCSB) (3), and Great Norwegian Encyclopedia (4). Norsk biografisk leksikon has no article about him, only his son {5); the father is identified by his full name at line 2. Narky Blert (talk) 06:53, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * While I agree with Schwede66 that normally we should use Common name, I support in this specific case - for distinguishing father and son, for being fair to his two very different fields, and for consistency with other Wikipedias - to go by long name as an exception. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:09, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * List of musicians who competed at the Olympic Games might be a relatively short article. Narky Blert (talk) 09:25, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I would support Narky Blert's suggestion, as per Gerda's comments above. --Smerus (talk) 08:58, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

As it is very clear from the above that he was better known as a baritone than a rower, I have moved the article to Erik Bye (baritone). Which then leaves the issue whether that is the appropriate article name or whether we should use his full name. Thanks, Narky Blert, for digging out four RS that list him with his full name. Databases will almost always use full names for people, and I therefore suggest that there is just one source that is of interest: Great Norwegian Encyclopedia. I'm saying that because it lists other people not by their full name, notably his son. So have they made an exception here to create what Wikipedians know as "natural disambiguation" (see WP:QUALIFIER)? I don't know. For that reason, I have had a look around to see whether there are posters online or LP records. After searching around, I came across something that he seems to be famous for and a Google image search for the string "hei, huskom, i hei erik ole bye" produces results that show a number of images with "Erik Bye" and none (that I could spot) with "Erik Ole Bye". Omitting "Ole" from that search string produces even more images that show "Erik Bye". Hence I maintain that the current article base name is the common name. If others here disagree, I suggest that we should initiate a formal discussion via Requested moves. If you want me to, I would be happy to initiate the RM.  Schwede 66  21:57, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Although I do not object to the qualifier (baritone), I am concerned that Schwede66 has made a unilateral preemptive decision in the middle of a discussion which has not reached a WP:CONSENSUS. That is not how a WP:DISCUSSION is supposed to proceed and be concluded.
 * My evaluation of the usefulness of the sources which I found can be inferred from the fact that I added the encyclopedia as a full reference and the two listings as WP:ELs, and omitted the genealogy. Narky Blert (talk) 21:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There is nothing preemptive about me having moved the article to "(baritone)", far from it. Firstly, everybody here (including me) agrees that he's more notable as a baritone than a rower and at the very least, we need a redirect from that baritone disambiguator. That's now in place, which might be temporary situation. Secondly, whatever the community consensus will be, it's clear that it won't be "(rower)" so there is no harm in making that a redirect. Thirdly, I offered to start a formal discussion at WP:RM where the matter can come to a final decision and it's totally immaterial for such a discussion what the title of the article is when that discussion starts.  Schwede 66  22:07, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I am ok with Erik Bye (baritone), but I can also see a good argument for Erik Ole Bye for consistency with foreign language wikipedia naming practices and for the reasoning I gave above about not giving precedence to one career over the other. I won't be taking it to a formal move discussion, but if another editor chooses to I will chime in. Best.4meter4 (talk) 01:47, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Stub expanded
Hello - Please have a look at Rosa - A Horse Drama which I have expanded. I think it's probably no longer a stub. Can we change its grading? I'm relatively inexperienced here and learning the ropes - any tidying up if needed is appreciated.Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:15, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Done.4meter4 (talk) 17:56, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Marita Napier
Hello everyone! I am currently working on bringing the article I wrote to GA status and wanted to ask for your help. I have found numerous mentions on Newspapers.com as well as rummaged through Google results, however I don't feel quite content. Could you share your experience - where else should I go to find more reviews about Marita Napier's performances as well as her personality. Thank you! Best, Less Unless (talk) 15:44, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Does anything here have what you're looking for? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:03, 15 May 2021 (UTC)


 * There are several articles in The New York Times. See here.4meter4 (talk) 16:36, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ,, thank you! Less Unless (talk) 20:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Composer of the oops!
I thought I'd proposed Rosa as Opera of the Month but it's turned up in composer of the month and opera of the month has a blank page. Rosa is written by Andriessen but Rosa was also a composer. If the composer Rosa is listed as composer of the month Greenaway's work is complete! Confusion reigns..Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:53, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

L'Egisto (opera)
I invite editors to take a look here. User:Bilby has I believe overstepped the mark in (twice) deleting an entry I have made on the basis of COI. What I posted was supported by two independent sources (and I could provide five or six more). I hope it is needless to say that I obtain no remuneration or any other benefit from being on the board of HGO. If I published the comment without mentioning HGO Bilby would presumably find it acceptable. But is it reasonable to leave it out? I would be grateful for editors' comments/ recommendations.--Smerus (talk) 12:46, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I restored the factual and referenced material. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:36, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you Gerda.--Smerus (talk) 13:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * To be clear, I am absolutly happy with Gerda adding the material. The thing is, Smerus, you specifially raised this issue late last year at COIN and it was explained to you that you have a COI in regard to HGO Trust because you are the organisation's chair, even though it is a non profit and you do not get paid. Furthermore, you agreed in that same discussion that that you would request changes in the future rather than directly editing the articles - specifically: "I absolutely accept this, which is why of course I came to this page for advice. I will be using Template:Request_edit for the future". Then in the last two months you added material to both this article and HGO Trust on multiple occasions without using the template . Please, just follow WP:COI and request changes as you agreed to do. I'm sure that other editors like Gerda will be happy to see the content added, and I don't want to make drama about it, which is why I hoped you would just understand and not make this bigger than it needed to be. - Bilby (talk) 13:52, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I suggest, Smerus, that you just use this thread for such requests because more people will watch it than individual operas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:08, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this suggestion Gerda.--Smerus (talk) 14:11, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Bilby, there seems to be more nuance to the situation than how you've presented to it. Were the opera in question Le nozze di Figaro, your rationale would be most acceptable, as putting information performances by a non-world-class opera company (nothing ill-meant by that characterization, Smerus) would be pointless and the supposed COI would make it even more unacceptable. However, we're talking about an opera which is virtually never performed and not by Mozart, Wagner, Verdi, Puccini, Rossini etc. so by removing a performance with references to valid sources seems because Smerus himself added it seems nothing but unproductive. Aza24 (talk) 20:40, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no idea if it should have been added or not, but I'm completely happy with Gerda and your evaluation that it should. But this is about a bright line - Smerus agreed that he would request edits where he has a COI, as outlined at the guideline page WP:COI. It is important that the process is used, especially given that it was so easy to just ask here, because so many problems emerge from COI editing that the simple rule of "don't edit articles directly" is both easy to follow and necessary. - Bilby (talk) 22:25, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

R.I.P. Paul Kellogg (opera director)
I just saw in Opera News this obituary for Paul Kellogg; longtime opera director of Glimmerglass Opera and also former director of the New York City Opera. He died on April 28, 2021. There's also a substantial obituary in the New York Times. We currently lack an article on him if anyone is looking for a project.4meter4 (talk) 15:47, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Gianna Rolandi
Gianna Rolandi died, coloratura at the New City Opera in the 1980s. There are some facts commented out in the article for which I couldn't find a source. Other additions also welcome. On the Main page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:30, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Spam links to watch out for
Note Do not archive this section. Voceditenore (talk) 10:17, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Tool for finding all pages currently linking to a particular domain


 * classicistranieri.com See this discussion. – Voceditenore (talk) 11:33, 30 March 2015 (UTC) Now blacklisted


 * profsonstage.com See this discussion. – Voceditenore (talk) 11:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC) Not yet blacklisted


 * streamopera.com Commercial site based in Italy selling streamed opera recordings. Had been added to 20 singer and opera articles. Voceditenore (talk) 10:45, 11 May 2015 (UTC) Not yet blacklisted


 * openmusiclibrary.org See this discussion. Voceditenore (talk) 11:06, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Article creation and cleanup requests
Note Do not archive this section. Voceditenore (talk) 10:17, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Past creation and cleanup requests are archived here. Voceditenore (talk) 11:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Article requests


 * Teatro Nuovo (Milan) (see it:Teatro Nuovo (Milano)).4meter4 (talk) 03:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
 * See also International Opera Awards (redlinks) in the archives. Voceditenore (talk) 17:14, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Almanacco Amadeus (and Gherardo Casaglia?) would be courteous of us. The transclusion count of the Almanacco template should pass through 500 today. Scarabocchio (talk) 08:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC
 * Cecelia Hall (mezzo-soprano) per this discussion


 * Cleanup requests


 * The Opera Project cleanup list shows all opera articles in need of clean up, referencing, expert attention, merging, splitting, verification, 'wikification', etc. The list is updated frequently by a bot. Just scroll down the list of cleanup categories and click on the appropriate link, e.g.
 * Articles in need of updating
 * Articles with no footnotes
 * Voceditenore (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This list is updated weekly, on a Tuesday (according to its History list). Scarabocchio (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Stubs
Note Do not archive this section. Voceditenore (talk) 14:04, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

As of September 2018, there are over 3000 opera-related articles classed as "stubs". The full list can be found at Category:Stub-Class Opera articles. If you have some free time, consider checking these once in a awhile to see if the class still applies. Some may well have been considerably expanded since they were last rated. Or you may find a potentially useful/important topic that you could expand or nominate for the monthly collaborations. Voceditenore (talk) 14:03, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Rosa - A Horse Drama no longer a stub. I think. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Lead images in opera articles
I recently had this conversation at User talk:MB which others might want to comment on. I noticed that you removed the composer's image from all of Daron Hagen's operas with the edit summary, "rmv images not of subject from infobox" and "MOS:LEADIMAGE, image should be of the subject - a poster or advertisement of the opera, not the composer". 1) MOS:LEADIMAGE does not prescribe a lead image in the detail you assert ("poster or advertisement of the opera"). 2) There are hundreds of opera articles that show the composer's image, which is fully in line with MOS:LEAD. 3) I've been editing opera articles here for 15 years, and I've never seen anyone proposing a guideline similar to your edit summary, nor have I ever encountered an editor who removed a composer's image from an opera article. I suggest you restore the image in all those instances where you removed them from opera pages. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:54, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * If there are other article on operas with images of the composer then they should be removed also. Operas are no different that other works of art, e.g. TV shows, books, movies, sculptures, paintings, etc. I have never seen one of this with an image of any person associated with the work. They commonly contain an image of a logo, book cover, title card, the artwork itself, etc. MOS:LEADIMAGE says the images should "representations of the topic". I don't see that the composer is a representation of the topic. MB 01:01, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm completely baffled by the implications of that editor's argument. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:56, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and reverted all of them. The composer image is a free image in wiki commons, and therefore arguably a better legal option where no free images are available. I also have a problem with the assertion made by . The idea of a poster, advertisement, or album cover representing an opera is problematic, as its really more a representation of one iteration of an opera in a specific context and not really a representation of the opera itself. It would legally be a hard sell to put an image of a copyrighted poster of a specific production of the opera, as it's really not a representation of the work but of a particular opera company's artistic vision of a work; which is arguably a separate work of art from the opera itself. Sets, costumes, posters, etc. from specific productions are often copyrighted by the opera companies or artists they employ as uniquely separate works of art owned by those individual companies or artists. We could really only use them legally if we were to write an article on that specific production of the opera. The only images that we could make a fair use argument for would be the front cover of the published opera score. However, many notable operas are never published. Further, it's far preferable to use a free image of the composer than to use a copyrighted score cover in my opinion from an ethical standpoint where we have the option.4meter4 (talk) 02:37, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems the sentiment that a composer's image is inappropriate for opera articles is shared by User:Doomsdayer520 who removed Daron Hagen's image from all his operas with the edit summary "Infobox for an opera/movie/play/etc customarily uses an image of the production, not composer/director/producer", which I still find baffling and not in line with common practice in such articles. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I reverted them, citing our project consensus about composer images in opera articles.4meter4 (talk) 01:08, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I support that. Sure, an image related directly to the opera is preferable, but if we don't have such a thing, the composer - best pictured around the time when he composed it - seems the next best choice. Look at Rossini's, smiling for buffa, and serious for seria. We should follow for Handel's, imho. For many of his works, the standard portrait is showing him too old, and we often have something closer related to the work in question. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - I removed the numbingly repetitive photos of Daron Hagen from all of his opera articles and was reverted. I was unaware of these recent discussions from just three weeks ago and merely reviewed the basic text of the MOS:LEADIMAGE guideline. No hard feelings, because I never have to look at those articles again, but I am not convinced that any kind of consensus was reached in the discussions above. That is because the discussions only used Mr. Hagen as an example, and there was some policy-based disagreement with Michael Bednarek's stance. MOS:LEADIMAGE also states that an infobox lead image is not required, and it is acceptable to have nothing if a useful photo is unavailable. Having Mr. Hagen's photo at the top of all of the articles for his operas could be conceived as valid under WP guidelines, and it could also be conceived as haphazard repeats of a man's face for purposes of fandom or promotion. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 19:01, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As others have pointed out, it's quite common for opera articles to have an image of their composer in the lead/infobox. An example that springs to mind are the operas by Benjamin Britten. I don't understand how that practice can be seen as "promotional". Production-specific images may be preferable, but they are hard to come by. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:33, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed - see also Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Images, where he is proposing to amend the MOS on this & related matters. Johnbod (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Women in Red/Missing articles by occupation/Opera singers
This is a useful list for our project. Perhaps we could partner with Women in Red on working on this list in some fashion?4meter4 (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Good idea - I am an occasional writer for WIR on their monthly projects. Some of those on the list, e.g. Josefine Vettori, have articles in other language WPs. If editors here are interested, we could approach WIR as 4meter4 suggests. Or we could just cherrypick as suits.--Smerus (talk) 17:57, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That is a ton of people, phew! I can try to assist, if we want to do some kind of drive. Aza24 (talk) 18:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could sponsor some sort of opera editing month with WIR and design some appropriate barn stars. One for creating 1 article. Another for 5. Another 10. And a top barn star for 20+ with the proviso that they are more than 1500 characters of text, have a minimum of two sources, and inline citations. Could be a fun way to get more people involved in our content area.4meter4 (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

R.I.P. Jean Kraft
See this Opera News obituary.4meter4 (talk) 20:34, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the detailed article (2009!) and the update. I nominated her for the Recent deaths section of the Main page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Ricordi's engagement with Wiki projects
Wow. I attended a session of the IAML conference in which staff of the Ricordi Archive gave an overview of their digital activities. They are heavily involved not just with Wikipedia but with Wikidata, WikiCommons and WikiSource. They are creating Italian-language-only articles on lots of operas and people involved with operas, have uploaded 1,066 images to the Commons so far, and on WikiSource, are uploading Gazzetta Musicale di Milano for 1842 (when finished it will be 228 pages on WikiSource). Just a heads up for those who may want to investigate. - kosboot (talk) 18:38, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Take a look at: Categoria:Gazzetta Musicale di Milano - kosboot (talk) 18:41, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * And (on Commons): Archivio Storico Ricordi
 * , is this different than the above ? Great news regardless. Aza24 (talk) 02:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It's the same project, but they are continuing to scan/upload images. It's also good to know that it's only a part of a broader effort to get Ricordi archival information into Wikimedia projects. - kosboot (talk) 13:55, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Capitalization of Fach
Voice type articles such as Bass and most notably Soprano like to make Fach lower case. Baritone is the exception that capitalizes it. From a bit of googling and my knowledge of German grammar, I'd guess that this should be capitalized. Is it a musical literature thing to make it lower case? Either way, we should aim to standardize on one or the other. Which do we vote for? Dhalamh (talk) 13:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * it always depends on how "deeply" a foreign word made it into English (compare Lied vs. lied), and views on that differ, and I we believe we have bigger problems than standardisation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:19, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Opera with two versions, one with tenor lead and one with baritone lead?
Which common, well-known, opera has a two versions, with a lead role which is a tenor in one, rewritten for a baritone in the other? (There's no prize, it's just torturing me not being able to bring it to mind). Scarabocchio (talk) 11:47, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Hmm... In 1901 the baritone Mattia Battistini asked Jules Massenet to rewrite the leading tenor role of Werther for baritone. He did. Is that what you are thinking of?4meter4 (talk) 14:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * That's it!!! Thank you, thank you .. Scarabocchio (talk) 11:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Royal Opera House contact
Does anyone have a contact at the Royal Opera House in London? Gerda Arendt suggested I ask if someone in this project might have such a contact. Information courtesy of GRuban is that the organisation has a Flickr account with lots of photos of British opera singers. Can they be persuaded to licence the images suitable for Wikipedia? The request started through me wanting to add a picture of Susan Bickley to a page about her currently under construction. --MerielGJones (talk) 22:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

New Zealand Opera project
Over the last few months I've been working with New Zealand Opera as a Wikipedian in Residence, primarily to help them release photos from their archive to Commons (once we'd established copyright holders and gotten clearances from one photographer). I only had ten days contracted with them, but we managed to make a good start: see the GLAM/NZOpera report. I'm a novice at working with opera articles, and appreciated the help of several people in this project; any improvements others would like to make would be welcome. As a WiR I had a pretty standard memorandum of understanding making it clear that I had editorial control, and so expanded the New Zealand Opera article under that agreement, working independently of the company itself apart from a couple of site visits to avoid COI issues.

One thing to note is the large number of high-quality production photos in their collection: I uploaded a couple of hundred from nine different productions, but the company has put on around 50 operas in their 20-year history, including many standards, so there's scope for much more work. I'm currently preparing a funding proposal to work full-time with NZ Opera for several months to a) upload photos from all their productions into Commons, b) put all their productions, artists, and creative team into Wikidata, c) create articles about New Zealand opera performers, particularly Māori and Pacific Island singers, and d) expand or create articles about NZ opera companies and opera history.

I'd appreciate feedback on the work so far. What problems or opportunities do you see, and are their folks who would like to endorse or volunteer to help with such a project? —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 23:13, 29 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Particularly important are new works & world premieres. Jenny McLeod's 2012 Hōhepa should be mentioned. Both the composer and the work have Wikipedia articles. Ross Harris' chamber opera Brass Poppies used NZ Opera resources(?) at the 2016 New Zealand Festival of the Arts. There may be others. Scarabocchio (talk) 20:16, 30 August 2021 (UTC)


 * For anyone interested in Opera in New Zealand, there's a valuable article on Opera and musical theatre in Te Ara: The Encyclopedia of New Zealand that covers a lot of ground in a brief space:
 * https://teara.govt.nz/en/opera-and-musical-theatre/print Scarabocchio (talk) 06:58, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I did create articles on the New Zealand operas Hōhepa and Ihitai 'Avei'a - Star Navigator, though both could do with expansion. Brass Poppies is a good candidate for creation, as is the 1962 David Farquhar opera A Unicorn for Christmas. There may be other premieres to add. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 12:06, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Simone Perugini
Hi, while writing an article about Cimarosas Le astuzie femminili for the german wikipedia I noticed a recording of conductor Simone Perugini which I found slightly suspicious. He appears to have specialiced to Cimarosas operas and has apparently already recorded many of them and also published several critical editions. But none of his singers are known otherwise. So I googled a bit and found these forum threads: Simone Perugini (Conductor) - Passing Off Past Opera Recordings As His Own!, Who the heck is Simone Perugini? and Fraudes discográficos y/u operísticos: Simone Perugini. What do you think about it? He is mentioned in three articles here: Il matrimonio segreto (with a self published interview at opennemas.com), Cleopatra (Cimarosa) and The Barber of Seville (Paisiello). Is his CD label RC Record Classic a fraud? Are his „critical editions“ just fascimile prints as this worldcat entry suggests? What about the recording of Le astuzie femminili at YouTube? The files are „Provided … by Routenote“, „Auto-generated by YouTube“, released as „Public Domain“ and don't allow comments. --Rodomonte (talk) 07:47, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There are even more references in the italian wikipeda --Rodomonte (talk) 07:59, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Take a look here. Cheers.--Jeanambr (talk) 12:36, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * (ec) No Wikipedia has an article about him, so no scrutiny has been applied. I think it would be prudent to remove all references to him until reputable sources establish these claims. That Amazon lists them may not be enough, especially given the gushing reviews by one particular user there, "LoveOpera", a musician from Florence – where Perugini claims to teach, but his name cannot be found there.. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:40, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Jeanambr. That's a breathtaking read. His name ought to be purged from Wikipedia. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:52, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Fatto. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think he deserves an article if only to reveal that he's a disreputable individual. - kosboot (talk) 13:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If anybody is still interested, global contributions by Composer75 seems responsible for some of this. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:13, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Pics from NZ Opera
If you don't received the online newsletter "This Month in GLAM" you may be unaware of a Wikipedian-in-Residence working at New Zealand Opera. One of the results is a donation of 200 photographs to Commons: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Newsletter/August_2021/Single#New_Zealand_report - kosboot (talk) 02:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Help for Opéra de Montréal
The company is mentioned on the Main page with Jean-Paul Jeannotte, and - as I see only now, sorry - is a sad stub. There's much more in French. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:01, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

User:GuillaumeTell
This editor was an enthusiastic editor in the area of opera, though stopped editing in 2015. His death has recently been announced. A sad loss. He was a former colleague and introduced me to Wikipedia editing, many years ago. Pam D  17:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Pam, - I came to tell the same, but with less personal touch. I took the liberty to archive most of his talk to a new archive 9. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:35, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for letting us know, Pam. I am so sorry to hear this. Andrew was one of the OP pioneers. As with you, Andrew and I go back a long way. Amongst many other things, he contributed the whole suite of articles on Wexford Festival Opera, which he had enthusiastically attended for many years. He was also a wonderful colleague - unfailingly cordial, considerate, and helpful, especially when a calm voice was needed. Voceditenore (talk) 16:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That is heartbreaking. He was a fantastic editing colleague and was much valued by our project. Thank you for letting us know.4meter4 (talk) 18:18, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Peter Brathwaite
I created a draft article for UK baritone Peter Brathwaite, but do not have access to some of the UK sources that are needed. I also do not know where to look in particular for opera-related info. My main interest in Brathwaite was in the art he created during the pandemic lockdown. I would greatly appreciate if someone more knowledgeable could improve this article enough for it to exit draft status. Thanks. Lamona (talk) 14:09, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Jean de Reszke - multiple links
I am wondering about the use of multiple links to the same Wikipedia article. I have been wondering if that is unique to opera articles - or if it's just that someone liked having each instance of a role and opera linked.

Your input is greatly appreciated.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:05, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Non-English sources.
Recently I heard (off-wiki) that an editor's edits were reverted simply because the sources were not in English. I thought that was incomprehensibly ridiculous so I posted to Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability. One editor responded, essentially justifying that argument. I still find it incomprehensible, especially for a project like this which heavily depends on non-English sources. If you are inclined, I encourage you to post to that thread (hopefully supporting the notion that non-English sources are valid). - kosboot (talk) 14:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

June Preston
This person's daughter wrote a huge uncited wiki article on her with bombastic claims including an illustrious career with the Met. The wiki article has now been gutted. Anyway, nothing seems to come up on her in OperaBase (unless I am searching incorrectly). Anyone care to check and see if she actually had a citable operatic career? Softlavender (talk) 07:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @. Zero hits in The New York Times archives and in the Metropolitan Opera Performance Archives which are comprehensive even for Met touring productions. It’s clear she never sang with the Met. Also nothing in The Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, or Billboard. I did find one hit in Variety which mentions she toured to Columbia with artists on the Met roster, but the tour was not organized by the Met and was apparently put together by her husband. No roles or reviews were given in that article. She’s not in any of the usual opera singer reference works either. It’s clear to me that this was a singer whose career never took off.4meter4 (talk) 17:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And what do we do about her birth date? IMDb has that precise date that's in the infobox, the article has three different ones all without a source. I know that IMDb is not regarded as RS, but isn't that consistently better than 4 different ones? It has California as birth place, while the articles offers two others, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the help. I personally think this is an AFD candidate. Nothing but passing mentions and non-notable announcements. And most of her claimed film roles were uncredited appearances in film shorts. I might wait a week prior to AFDing, but even with sympathetic and diligent editors we're not finding anything that achieves notability thresholds. Softlavender (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * On second thought, maybe the article should stand, as an accurate rebuttal to the preposterous bloated claims her daughter has posted on IMDB and all around the internet. Softlavender (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @, unfortunately there is nothing we can do to prevent her daughter from spreading misinformation. I wouldn't be surprised if her daughter wasn't actually believing the things she is writing. Her mother strikes me as the kind of person that would talk herself up to the people around her, and her daughter may just be repeating things her mother has claimed throughout her life. Regardless, we should follow wiki policy as written and take this to AFD. No reason to give a non-notable person space on a highly visible platform like wikipedia. Not many people are going to be looking for content on June Preston anyway; even on IMDB and Pinterest (another place her daughter posts content).4meter4 (talk) 01:50, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments appreciated at Talk:June Preston
Hi all. This version of the June Preston article written by the subject's daughter made some pretty extraordinary claims about Preston and her work with the Metropolitan Opera. The Metropolitan Opera Archives contain no record of her having sung with the company. The archive is a complete record of all of the company's performance both in New York and on tour; so it's clear that this information was false. I did digging and found sources in Variety (magazine) and Opera News which explained that the tour included singers under contract from the Met and other American companies, but that it was not affiliated in any way with the Met even though ithe company was billed/named "Stars of the Metropolitan Opera". There was some question raised about whether this content was necessary, but I feel it is given that inaccurate content has been posted by the subject's daughter on other websites. Thoughts on how we should handle this would be appreciated, whatever they may be. All comments welcome. Thanks.4meter4 (talk) 22:21, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

R.I.P. Maria Ewing
Just saw this obituary in The New York Times.4meter4 (talk) 15:21, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

AfD proposal June Preston
Discussion here--Smerus (talk) 20:49, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

File:Georges_Rochegrosse_-_Poster_for_Gabriel_Fauré%27s_Pénélope_(1913)_-_Original.jpg
I have a lengthy footnote here detailing why it must date from 1913. Can I just get a quick fact-check? I'm pretty damn sure, though, that the Getty image's naming of the theatre this is for narrows it down to the Paris première. But more eyes never hurt! Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 12:36, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, it's restored now. Georges Rochegrosse - Poster for Gabriel Fauré's Pénélope (1913).jpg Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 04:06, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Questionable source material cited in The Gypsy Baron
New here. I posted this in the Talk page but I'm not sure how much traction that gets--feel free to remove this if it's the wrong place. The article mentions that Strauss had been working on the operetta in 1883; however, Mór Jókai's novel, A cigánybáró, wasn't published until 1885, and not until 1886 in German, after the premiere date given for the operetta. It could be that Strauss could read Hungarian and was regularly fed new reading material, but I don't see anything indicating this. Either way, the dates don't seem to work out. Likewise, the source is given as Sáffi, but Mór Jókai's novel (novella), A cigánybáró, translates to English as "the gypsy baron." Did he have another work titled Sáffi that also happens to have the same translation but doesn't appear in the list of his works on the Mór Jókai page? Further, a google search for Sáffi by Mór Jókai only seems to find links to the opera, not any mention of an actual novel. It would be great if someone could clear this up. Jacobw56 (talk) 02:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your message. I responded on the talk page of the opera in order to keep the conversation in one place. I suggest other project members chime in at Talk:The Gypsy Baron.4meter4 (talk) 03:43, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Le martyre de Saint Sebastien
I see the article on this work adheres strictly to Debussy's designation of this work as a "mystery play." But it's not a play, or at least, does not meet one's expectations of a play. It's not incidental music but music composed in conjunction with a text intended to be acted out. I see the library world considers this work an opera. What do the rest of you say? - kosboot (talk) 14:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)


 * kosboot, I’m inclined to keep the classification as it is. I had a quick look at the literature and they seem to describe it as a simultaneous mix of a drama with music, a ballet, and an oratorio. But none of them call it an opera. Voceditenore (talk) 13:42, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Pelléas et Mélisande
Just as a heads up of sorts, I've restored the lead image finally. It's only used in the opera's article now; it might well be worth spreading. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 10:40, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added it to Debussy and the play as well. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 12:10, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * thank you, it's great! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:21, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, and I realise her opera connection kind of fades into less importance compared to, y'know, the whole civil rights and all the other performaces she did, but Marian Anderson, first African-American performer at the Metropolitan Opera is also now the subject of a featured picture. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 00:50, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Sissieretta Jones
Just to check before I go adding the likely-soon-to-be-featured poster here and to the portal, while clearly an important musician, and she clearly sung arias from opera (and very well), is that sufficient connection for inclusion in the portal? Her page is in our Wikiproject, though, weirdly enough, it appears to be added by a bot: Adam Cuerden' (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 22:15, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Opera magazine tweets announcement of Parma's 2022 Festival Verdi with a photo from Viva-Verdi
Opera (British magazine): The programme of the ⁦@RegioParma⁩’s Festival Verdi 2022 has been announced (Sep 22-Oct), including new productions of La forza del destino and Simon Boccanegra (1857 version), and also Il trovatore, the Requiem and Quattro pezzi sacri, etc. (Pic: Viva-Verdi)

https://twitter.com/operamagazine/status/1490747327623143429 Scarabocchio (talk) 18:15, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * His legacy's going to last quite a long time. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 19:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Today's featured picture - for a change not by you, Adam - is from Falstaff, to which he contributed much of the content and the infobox:

What do project members thing about an infobox for Cosima Wagner? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:39, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

still nominated by me. But, more on topic - I'd say infoboxes are really suitable to people as they collect a lot of basic information - birthdate, death date, nationality and so on - in one place. Even if we've turned against sidebars in opera pages, I think we should stick to standard biographical practice. But don't look at me, I'm the image guy. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 22:20, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * When I'm noting a discussion I am supposed to remain neutral, but I guess it's not biasd when I tell you to say this same thing at the article. As the arbs of 2013 left us with the "each article's talk" (which I hate) we have to repeat the ordeal as long as discussions are begun. This could be the last, imagine ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:58, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

150th Featured Picture
Over at Portal:Opera, I've just added FP 149, Sissieretta Jones. I know that's a horribly inaccurate count and basically meaningless, but since it's still a big round number, any suggestions for #150? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 23:04, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, wait, forgot about Marguerite Priola. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 19:13, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Nabucco
Having sen Nabucco on today's Main page (OTD), I believe it could be a GA, and nominated. Some references are missing. Please watch and help if possible, - sadly the principal author and expert Viva-Verdi can't help us. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Elena D'Angri
The birth and death dates in this article are different than what is in Grove. Likewise, Grove asserts the name most commonly used is Elena Angri versus Elena D'Angri in its choice of name. The Grove entry is titled "Angri [D’Angri], Elena [Nazarena, Mattia, Catterina]" with the article stating (b Corfu, May 14, 1821; d Barcelona, Nov 5, 1886). My question is, what is the reason behind the lack of specific date of birth and a different death date in the article given that Grove is in the listed references and presumably the Grove content was viewed and rejected. I'm inclined to just use Grove's straight forward material.4meter4 (talk) 14:31, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Update, apparently in looking further it appears an 1880 publication is the source for the discrepancy, but frankly I think current day Grove is probably more accurate given that that 1880 source is in Grove's bibliography and its author rejected that date in favor of current Greek musicologist Kousoures. Thoughts  and ?4meter4 (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi 4meter4. I'd go with the Grove. I last edited that article in 2012, although I didn't create it. It appears the Grove article was updated in 2014. So I think that would be the way to go. Best. Voceditenore (talk) 14:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Sängerlexikon states her birth date: 14 May 1824 https://books.google.de/books?id=dsfq_5dFeL0C&pg=PA115 Grimes2 (talk) 15:01, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, 4meter4 and Grimes2. This is getting complicated. The Grove death date is obviously wrong. It's 29 August 1886 not 5 November 1886. If you look at the current reference for the death date in the WP article, it is an obituary for her in La Vanguardia dated 1 September 1886 which states that she died on 29 August. Voceditenore (talk) 15:55, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Complicated indeed. Is there any reason to doubt Grove's date of birth?4meter4 (talk) 16:01, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Good question, 4meter4! I think that I know the answer to this one. I know that Grove did not keep the original sources for the Dictionary of Opera, so to create the online resource they had to OCR the printed copies and then proofread them. When I saw the disputed dates were 1821 and 1824, my suspicions were aroused so I went to my physical books and, yes indeed, the printed copy of the Grove Dictionary of Opera gives the birth year as 1824. It's a scanning error. Scarabocchio (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Grove changed the date. Previous Version 1992: 1824, Version updated and revised, 3 September 2014: 1821. This was done intentionally, maybe because source Moore says 1821. Grimes2 (talk) 19:16, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, you are correct. The DOB online was 1824 in the year 2000. Scarabocchio (talk) 21:41, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure the death date differences are too much for it to just be Julian/Gregorian, right? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.7% of all FPs 00:42, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like and turns it into something like
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from cite web, cite journal and doi.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Norman Mittelmann
Comments, whatever they may be, would be welcome at this discussion.4meter4 (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * We should blame ourselves for having just a minimum article. It should be snow-closed but expanded, and sorry, I am behind with other projects right now (all week). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Eleonora Buratto -- a stub that could use some TLC
I heard Eleonora Buratto sing Cio-Cio-San on this past Saturday's Met live radio broadcast, and her singing was very very fine. I looked up her wiki and it's a tiny stub. Apparently it was created by a COI/SPA in 2015 and was mainly a copyvio, and was gutted. Apparently another(?) COI/SPA tried to do the same thing a few months ago and it was again gutted.

So it needs one of us types to flesh it out at least a little bit more.

Anyone care to help out? Pinging who may have heard the broadcast; ; really anybody with any interest and a smattering of time. I wish was still active in this stuff but I see she has wound down.

Anyway, any help appreciated. I'd do it myself but my time is limited right now due to events in my personal life.

Cheers all! Softlavender (talk) 23:18, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I am tied up at present organizing this but will take a look when I can. Best--Smerus (talk) 13:02, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Input needed
Input is needed at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 15%23Violoneux. All opinions welcome.4meter4 (talk) 02:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Ambur Braid
The article about Ambur Braid has not been encyclopedic from the start, - help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:17, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Maria Nazarova
This draft has been abandoned. Any interest from anyone here in rescuing it? ~Kvng (talk) 17:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Christian Van Horn is another. ~Kvng (talk) 19:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Barnstars
Hi Folks!! Is there any barnstars for folk who create particularly good opera articles.  scope_creep Talk  10:54, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * not that I know of, - be creative! With many opera articles being written already, we focus more on the people who sing, direct and conduct them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:01, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

What about "whispers" and of course falsetto? (please, experts on voices)
why aren't they included  AND  how do the listed seven compare to the usual (4)names for (4)male and (3)female? i just want to understand the why, when & where :D A breakdown of each major category saying which "usual mentioned" voice is in which of the major seven... would be nice

i'm asking for experts because I know bass and alto are two i usually hear but isn't listed as one of the seven.... and i have a good falsetto so wondering about that, meanwhile my research mentioned "whispers" which I've never heard of before so even an example would help Qazwiz (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2022 (UTC) Qazwiz (talk) 19:22, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If you're referring to voice types, those refer to voices that use that particular category for the overwhelming majority of the opera. I know of no work where a performer consistently whispers throughout the work.  As far as falsetto, countertenors sing in falsetto.  I'm told that, technically, sopranos are always singing in falsetto. - kosboot (talk) 21:22, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Joanna Simon (mezzo-soprano)
Project members may wish to comment here. All opinions welcome.4meter4 (talk) 09:33, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Does anyone know a source for the autograph of Salieri's Prima la musica?
There apparently used to be a governmental source that offered scans of a lot of his scores, but it disappeared, which just shows the value of porting stuff over to Commons. Annoying because I can't find a published version that doesn't claim copyright. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.1% of all FPs 15:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Nevermind Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.1% of all FPs 17:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Input needed on opera eroica
Currently a redirect to opera. The redirect is up for deletion at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 11.4meter4 (talk) 20:12, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

RIP Mariana Nicolesco
Mariana Nicolesco died, a Romanian soprano in a world premiere of a Berio opera without article at La Scala, and Penderecki wrote Seven Gates of Jerusalem for her, but no obit (yet) which isn't in Romanian. Is there anybody who could sift the Romanian references? ... find her entry in the La Scala archives which is gone? ... find references for some wild claims such as 200 times La traviata and the laundry lists of people and places? - It would be nice to send her to Recent deaths on the Main page, but not possible underreferenced as it is. ... I'll go out to the opera, and hope for a miracle. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

RIP Joanna Simon (mezzo-soprano)
The daughter of publisher Richard L. Simon and the older sister of Carly Simon and Lucy Simon (who also died a day later), Joanna began her career as a mezzo with the New York City Opera. She sang in several world premieres; including operas by Alberto Ginastera, Thomas Pasatieri, and Robert Starer. She was the first singer to record the role of Irene in Handel's Tamerlano. and she also made recordings with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic (Claude Debussy's Le Martyre de saint Sébastien and the role of Brangane in Richard Wagner's Tristan and Isolde); William Steinberg and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra (Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 ), and the Vienna Philharmonic and Herbert von Karajan (Mozart's Coronation Mass and Anton Bruckner's Te Deum). She later was the Arts Correspondent for PBS's MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour from 1986-1992; winning an Emmy Award for her work. Married to the novelist Gerald Walker from 1976 until his death in 2004, she was the companion of Walter Cronkite from 2005 until his death in 2009.

I have nominated her article at In the news/Candidates. I recently rescued this article from AFD and greatly expanded it. 4meter4 (talk) 19:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Lester Lynch
I started a new article. Please feel free to edit and to fix any mistakes and errors. Bearian (talk) 19:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)