Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 18

Village pump proposals
There are several proposals located at Village pump (policy)/Sports notability to either abolish or significantly rewrite WP:NSPORT which may be of interest to this project's editors. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2022 (UTC)


 * To be more specific, your input, one way or the other, on several pending proposals to alter NSPORTS would be welcomed. These proposals are as follows:
 * Subproposal 1: Requires "all athlete biographies must demonstrate GNG when notability is challenged at AfD" and that "SIGCOV in multiple secondary, independent reliable sources would have to be produced during the course of an AfD". Also potential limitations/exceptions.
 * Subproposal 3: "Remove all simple or mere 'participation' criteria in NSPORT, outside of ones related to Olympics and equivalent events."
 * Subproposal 4: "Modify all provisions of NSPORTS that provide that participation in 'one' game/match such that the minimum participation level is increased to 'three' games/matches. This raises the threshold for the presumption of notability to kick in."
 * Subproposal 5: "Implement a requirement that all sports biographies and sports season/team articles must, from inception, include at least one example of actual WP:SIGCOV from a reliable, independent source. Mere database entries would be insufficient for creation of a new biography article."
 * Subproposal 6: "Conditional on Subproposal 6 passing, should a prod-variant be created, applicable to the articles covered by Subproposal 5, that would require the addition of one reference containing significant coverage to challenge the notice."
 * Subproposal 8: "Rewrite the introduction to clearly state that GNG is the applicable guideline, and articles may not be created or kept unless they meet GNG." Further: "Replace all instances of 'presumed to be notable' with 'significant coverage is likely to exist.'
 * Subproposal 9: Strike, as allegedly confusing and/or at odds with other parts of NSPORTS, the following sentence from the lead: "The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below."
 * Subproposal 10: "Require each project that has inclusion criteria based on participation in a league ... within the next 30 days to justify the inclusion of each league. Such justification must include actual 'random' (truly random) sampling showing that 90%-plus of the players in each league receive sufficient SIGCOV to pass GNG. At the end of 30 days, any league as to which the data has not been provided must be stricken from NSPORTS." Cbl62 (talk) 09:29, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Professional 3x3 leagues in infobox
The last discussions I could find about not putting 3x3 information in the infobox and in the lead is here and here almost 4 years ago, with the consensus seems to be not adding the information because the BIG3 was not notable enough for it to be added. It has been 4 years since then. Could we still say that the BIG3 is not notable enough? Also, does this opinion only exists for BIG3 or for 3x3 basketball as a whole? Because I could see articles having 3x3 teams in their infoboxes (mostly FIBA world tour teams).

The PBA also now has its own 3x3 counterpart. There are players with enwiki articles currently playing in the 3x3 league, but I didn't put the 3x3 info in their infoboxes as I was aware of the aforementioned consensus. In the article Ken Bono however, I reverted an addition of this 3x3 information, saying that it was consensus not to add those, but was saying that BIG3 is not PBA 3x3 (which is in reality true since the discussion was only regarding BIG3, not other 3x3 leagues). What can be done on this? I think the resulting discussion should cover all 3x3 leagues, not just the BIG 3. '''Engr. Smitty  Werben''' 15:35, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * BIG3 is not 3x3. 3x3 is an Olympic discipline, and BIG3 has been rightfully viewed as a gimmick. (Personally, I would be in favor of listing BIG3 teams in the infobox provided BIG3 career is in the prose, as the infobox summarizes prose, but I recognize the argument of how the BIG3 is viewed.) Dušan Bulut lists his 3x3 teams (but not BIG3 teams). This is pretty straightforward. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:45, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * BIG3 is 3x3 basketball despite using slightly different rules than 3x3 FIBA basketball, just like NBA is 5x5 basketball despite using different rules than conventional FIBA 5x5 basketball. That said, I'm not for listing it in the infobox with the 5x5 teams as it is not the same sport, similar to indoor football career does not get listed with the better known outdoor football in association football infoboxes. I don't mind it being mentioned in the lead if the player had some success playing 3x3 basketball. Alvaldi (talk) 16:45, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * NBA basketball is more similar than FIBA basketball than BIG3 is to 3x3, more so with the recent changes to FIBA rules. BIG3 and 3x3 are played on different rules altogether; I'd argue BIG3 is closer to NBA than 3x3. They don't even score the same shot identically. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:49, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Let's not get distracted. All exclusions in the infobox (and prose?) were solely for Big3. For 3x3 basketball played under FIBA rules, we currently list club and national teams in the infobox whenever possible. The question if we'd keep on doing that or if we'd do what we do with Big3 to 3x3 basketball as played under FIBA rules, and possible encompass all basketball variations with three people on the court at any time. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:03, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Players stats from multiple leagues
If a player has been in multiple leagues, does it make sense to have a stats total of all their combined leagues (e.g. Shabazz Muhammad)? It seems that they are different competitions that should not be totaled.—Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Total should not be listed as that is WP:OR to say the least. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:47, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * No, they should not be combined. Rikster2 (talk) 19:49, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I have removed the career totals, as well as his SMB stats for he is currently active. Engr. Smitty   Werben 09:44, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Input needed for new WP:NBASKETBALL notability criteria
Based on the results of a recent RfC about the notability guidance for athletes, all "participation" criteria ("played at least one game in league X") have been removed. As a set of Wikiprojects we need to come up with new criteria. A centralized discussion was been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 43 - please come and give input so that we can build the new guideline. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 13:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Merge discussion notice
An editor has requested for Liaoning Gymnasium to be merged into Liaoning Flying Leopards. Since you had some involvement with Liaoning Gymnasium or Liaoning Flying Leopards, you might want to participate in the merger discussion (if you have not already done so). A. C. Santacruz &#8258; Please ping me! 08:30, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Ed Book height
To avoid an edit war, I am bringing this here. has changed the height of Ed Book to 213 cm with the edit summary being "accuracy because I know Ed". I have reverted that citing No original research, as the height listed in this ref (that I cited in my previous revert) is 210 cm. If anyone can provide any thoughts on the matter to mediate the situation, please do. Thanks. DaHuzyBru (talk) 07:40, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The WP:BURDEN policy is relevant here: —Bagumba (talk) 17:27, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The height must be sourced and sources for his height are actually readily available. Sports-reference.com lists him as 211 cm (6'11"), this basketball card also lists him at 6'11". The Buffalo News and St. Louis Post-Dispatch list him as a 6-foot-11 and the Canisius men's basketball record book (page 20) records him as 6-11. Alvaldi (talk) 17:46, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move of March Madness (disambiguation) to March Madness
This page isn't listed as a project interest but I believe parties interested in the outcome are likely members of this project. Please feel invited to join the discussion at Talk:March Madness (disambiguation). Thank you. BusterD (talk) 03:59, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Serie A (Basketball)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Serie A (Basketball) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him &#124; talk) 07:11, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Nationality and birthplace country in infobox
There is a related discussion to basketball infoboxes at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes.—Bagumba (talk) 02:52, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Season Articles
Can someone explain the point of creating season articles 6 months before the season starts? Is there consensus on these (empty) articles being created in advance? --Whiteguru (talk) 09:43, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Pro stats for Alexi Giannoulias?
Are there any records of Illinois politician Alexi Giannoulias' statistics from when he played for Panionios BC? Zagal e jo (talk) 23:16, 27 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I have found this site https://widgets.baskethotel.com, it is used on some Wikipedia pages(example: Greek Basket League individual statistics), it might contain the players stats for that season, but my programming knowledge isn't good enough to use the data found. I hope this can help in some way. Milos531 (talk) 18:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like and turns it into something like
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
 * John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from cite web, cite journal and doi.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Detainment of Brittney Griner
I believe the ongoing situation in regard to Brittney Griner being held by Russian authorities deserves to have its own article, and that there is credible public demand for such an article independent of Griner's BLP page. There is an unquantifiable level of notable coverage on the topic, and it is an important aspect in US-Russia relations during the fragile and explosive situation that is Russia's war against Ukraine, as well as being a notable facet of Russia's worldwide perception. Brittney Griner is a high-profile prison of the Russian justice system, and I believe that an article on Wikipedia specifically detailing her charges, circumstances, and diplomatic consequences would be an important and perhaps necessary thing to do. Mungo Kitsch  (talk)  05:32, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Can also continue to expand her article until the section become too unwieldy. Per WP:AVOIDSPLIT: —Bagumba (talk) 07:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Division C articles
Please help me! User:Fram hates my articles about Division C championships. The first article, 2022 FIBA U18 Women's European Championship Division C, he moved to the Draft:2022 FIBA U18 Women's European Championship Division C and the second one, 2019 FIBA U18 Women's European Championship Division C, is already marked with the template Proposed deletion. What will follow? There are 60 articles about the third divisions on Wikipedia. Maiō T. (talk) 15:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:John Givens
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:John Givens that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 何をしましたか？ 那晚安啦.  08:01, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Fast Break Fury
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Fast Break Fury that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Players of teams that relocated or changed owners
Recently in the PBA, the Alaska Aces has been bought by a new owner and subsequently renamed/rebranded as the Converge FiberXers. It seems that in practice, if a player is a member of a team that changed owners and/or relocated, we put the new team/franchise/team name in the same "team=" parameter of the infobox. One example of this is Kevin Durant. This method is what I did to former Alaska players that became Converge FiberXers, such as Jeron Teng. However, suggested that there should be a new "team=" line because Alaska and Converge are actually different franchises (which is actually the case. Alaska's records are not carried on to Converge. The Alaska franchise is officially defunct.)

Any thoughts? Should we put the two teams in the same line, regardless if whether the records are carried on or not? Or should we take into account these records (one line only if carried on to new franchise; two lines if not)? I am not exactly sure with the rationale of putting two teams in the same line; I was just following what was done to others to be consistent.'''Engr. Smitty  Werben''' 18:15, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * If the league/association says it's whole new "franchise", then we treat it as it is. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * In other words, it's two lines. See for example, what we did Ramon Fernandez when Toyota Super Corollas' franchise was extinguished and the Tanduay Rhum Masters bought it out.
 * Another example is Gabby Espinas when the Sta. Lucia Realtors franchise was bought out by the Meralco Bolts.
 * Interesitngly, the Chris Ross article used this logic until tenures with Sta. Lucia and Meralco were merged under one "line" in 2017. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It should be a new "team=" line. For example, when Welcoat Dragons franchise buys the Shell Turbo Chargers franchise, the records of Shell doesn't carry over to the Welcoat so it's clear that the Alaska and Converge franchises are different, it also because they're not the same company. Gayviewmahat (talk) 08:27, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Take note it's not always as straightforward as this. It still depends on circumstances; a good counterexample is when San Miguel Corporation bought the Purefoods franchise from the Ayalas. It's best to check how the league treated the transaction. Howard the Duck (talk) 10:43, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The deciding factor in NBA pages has been whether the new ownership keeps the team history from past ownerships. In the case of the New Orleans Hornets, they ultimately gave up its Charlotte history, so you see Baron Davis with separate entries for both teams. The Oklahoma City Thunder still claim Seattle SuperSonics history (for now), so Kevin Durant has a single line for both.—Bagumba (talk) 11:02, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Plural changes to List of Champions tables
Just wanted to see what other people's thoughts were on the following plural changes made by an IP to NBA and NBL List of Champions table column headers NBA NBL NZNBL. Team > Teams; Champion > Champions. I'm happy to align, just want to clarify what the consensus is. Thanks. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:29, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd say that they should refect the data that is in an individual cell. For a list of championships by year, that would be singular "Champion", since there is only one champion per year. For a list of results by team, since it is cumulative, plurals are fine. A list like List of World Series champions seems to be consistent.—Bagumba (talk) 10:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree regarding the individual cell. That is how I perceive it too. DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:29, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Ali Mansour (basketball)
A user complained at WT:AN that they could not create Draft:Ali Mansour (basketball) due to a blacklist entry targeting an actor with the same name and associated with Sockpuppet investigations/Ali mansour. The suggested remedy is to create a userspace draft at a non-blacklisted title and then have an administrator move to draftspace, but it is also possible to create the article directly at Ali Mansour (basketball). The player is possibly notable as a member of the Lebanon men's national basketball team. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 00:34, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Anna Wilson (basketball)
I just nominated Anna Wilson (basketball) for featured article status, feel free to comment or review at Featured article candidates/Anna Wilson (basketball)/archive1. Thank you. Therapyisgood (talk) 00:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Basketball SNG RFC
FYI: Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports) Levivich 17:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:FEU Tamaraws men's basketball
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:FEU Tamaraws men's basketball that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 15:48, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Murals of Kobe Bryant
Anyone care to help expand Murals of Kobe Bryant? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 22:44, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Tyrone Garland
User:Buidhe has nominated Tyrone Garland for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:34, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Renaming discussion
Please comment here. User:Namiba 14:51, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Assistance required
Knowing absolutely nothing about basketball, I first created the page about Aboriginal Australian basketball player Claude Williams as Claude Williams (Australian basketballer), because the redlink for Claude Williams (basketball) has lots of incoming links relating to an American player (I suspect most from templates though). I then noticed/remembered that "basketballer" is not usually used (only in redirects as far as I can see at a glance), so moved my article to Claude Williams (basketball, born 1952), per some other article titles I found. (Plenty more could be added to his sporting career; I was mainly interested in creating family relationships and differentiation from his father, intially.) There's a DAB for Claude Williams, and I think that I think that Claude Williams (basketball) needs to become a DAB and the American player differentiated. Can someone either create a quick stub article for him, or alternatively select an article which is most closely linked to this man, so that the DAB and another suitable redlink for him can be created, targeting this article, please? Laterthanyouthink (talk) 09:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I just created Claude Williams (basketball, born 1965); Claude Williams (basketball) is now redirected to Claude Williams (disambiguation). DaHuzyBru (talk) 10:56, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you - that's great! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 11:00, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: Categories for Draftees by Year and Rookies by Year
I want to point out something that does not exist at present, but that I believe would benefit the encyclopedia. What if both NBA and WNBA players received their own categories according to the year(s) they were drafted, as well as the year they were a rookie in their respective league? While I am fully aware that there are templates that list draftees, I think that a category section would be rather useful for navigation purposes throughout the encyclopedia. Here is what I am thinking:

NBA draft picks:
 * Category:1947 Basketball Association of America draft picks
 * Category:1948 Basketball Association of America draft picks
 * Category:1949 Basketball Association of America draft picks
 * Category:1950 National Basketball Association draft picks
 * etc.
 * Category:2022 National Basketball Association draft picks

NBA rookies
 * Category:1946-47 Basketball Association of America rookies
 * Category:1947-48 Basketball Association of America rookies
 * Category:1948-49 Basketball Association of America rookies
 * Category:1949-50 National Basketball Association rookies
 * etc.
 * Category:2022-23 National Basketball Association rookies

WNBA draft picks
 * Category:1997 Women's National Basketball Association draft picks
 * Category:1998 Women's National Basketball Association draft picks
 * Category:1999 Women's National Basketball Association draft picks
 * Category:2000 Women's National Basketball Association draft picks
 * etc.
 * Category:2022 Women's National Basketball Association draft picks

WNBA rookies
 * Category:1997 Women's National Basketball Association rookies
 * Category:1998 Women's National Basketball Association rookies
 * Category:1999 Women's National Basketball Association rookies
 * Category:2000 Women's National Basketball Association rookies
 * etc.
 * Category:2022 Women's National Basketball Association rookies

One thing I do note is that many of the above categories have substantial overlap. Many players who are drafted start playing in their league the season after their draft. However, exceptions abound. For example, Manu Ginobili was drafted in 1999, but did not start playing until 2002. Chet Holmgren was drafted this past 2022 NBA draft, but has been ruled out for the whole present season. Therefore, both the draft pick and rookie categories would be necessary to differentiate between two distinct groups, while the rookie categories can be more welcoming to undrafted players.

I got this idea because today, I was surfing through all the players who debuted in the 1946-47 BAA season, the same season in which the whole BAA/NBA league started. (I also just learned that there was no 1946 BAA draft.) There is presently no prepared list of such players on Wikipedia, and I had to use this page on Basketball Reference to navigate the list.

While my emphasis on this post is career beginnings, I think the equivalent could be used for the final season of player's careers as well. There could also be categories for, say "XXXX-XX National Basketball Association undrafted rookies" for further specificity.

Before I make these categories, I would like several opinions on these ideas. If I receive no responses here, then perhaps I will go forth anyways because I do believe these categories and likewise pages would be helpful. (Walking back on this for consensus reasons. Mungo Kitsch   (talk)  06:53, 15 November 2022 (UTC) )

SIDE NOTE: The whole reason I was navigating through all the players in the 1946-47 season today was because I was looking for articles of players that did not yet have career statistics tables placed therein, finding only one none remaining (I thought one when I typed this, but that is because of a spelling error during my research). Giving stat tables to player articles (as well as team articles or any other applicable page) is another activity I am actively embarking on, and the above proposed categories would make it easier to find such pages according to year of players' career inception. Mungo Kitsch  (talk)  04:08, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Beware of WP:DEFINING. WP:CFD always seems like a crapshoot.—Bagumba (talk) 06:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I would strongly oppose this category tree. The information is already elsewhere on Wikipedia and being included in a specific draft is non-defining.--User:Namiba 13:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the responses here, so I will therefore presently abandon pursuing creation of these categories. Thank you. Mungo Kitsch   (talk)  22:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Vital Articles level 5 basketball players discussion
Here at Vital articles level 5, I have started a discussion that people from this project might be interested in participating in. It is at this link: Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:11, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

National basketball team results
I wonder why most national teams don't have a page for their results. They are included in the team's article and usually removed after 1 year had passed. It shouldn't be hard to start a new page by copy-pasting from history (obviously refs are needed too). Possibly how France men's national basketball team results (2020–present) and Germany men's national basketball team results (2020–present) were created. I think the ultimate goal would be a full list similar to Spain national basketball team results. I also started Basketball results FIBA Europe for European teams, feel free to modify it. Pelmeen10 (talk) 15:19, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Template for sports articles lacking sources containing significant coverage
The 2022 NSPORTS RfC added a requirement that all sports articles are required to have a source that contains significant coverage of the topic. To help identify sports articles that lack this I've created Template:No significant coverage (sports); please add it to any such articles that you encounter, and if you are looking for an article to improve the relevant categories may be useful. BilledMammal (talk) 13:00, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The RfC was limited to sports biographies, not "all sports articles". Cbl62 (talk) 16:45, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, the template has been nominated for deletion. See TfD discussion here. It would be prudent to await the outcome of the TfD before rolling this template out. Cbl62 (talk) 16:51, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

There are lots of NBA player articles without the player's career statistics. Here is a list that can hopefully help with that.
Hello, all. One thing I have liked to do on Wikipedia over the last four years is add career stat tables to player articles. I know that there are a good amount of editors who also like to do this. Therefore, I made the above-linked list so that any editors can see which player articles are presently statless or otherwise have inadequate representation of their stats, receive ideas on which articles to add stats to, and gauge how much work needs to be done here. The player articles are organized according to rookie season, and alphabetized within their season. Once an editor does add the player’s statistics to its respective article, then the name of the player can be removed from the list. I would like to mention some trends and factoids I noticed in these articles while compiling this list. From now on, when I contribute NBA and/or ABA stat tables to Wikipedia, I will also be removing the respective name from this list. It goes without saying that I cannot mandate that everyone else follow suit, but I intend for this list to be communally utilized and not just for my own purposes. Personally, I will be posting the stats of the 1949-50 rookie class more often than other rookie classes, because that is the earliest rookie class that has any statless articles. Once that is completed, I will then prioritize the 1950-51 rookie class, then the 1951-52 rookie class, and so on. If anyone of you want to do it that way as well, you sure can, but no pressure; y’all can make your own patterns as well if you want. As well, I have plans to make an equivalent player list for the WNBA, likely coming early next year. The WNBA statless article list will be less labor intensive and much shorter, because of the facts that the WNBA is approximately a half-century younger than the NBA; there are fewer WNBA teams in its entire history (18) than the NBA presently has (30); and that full WNBA team rosters are usually smaller than full NBA team rosters, with the traditional number of players being 12 and 15 respectively. I will likewise announce that for community use once such is completed. Any feedback, fact check of my above claims, and statistical additions are appreciated. And if anyone has any categories this guide can go under, that would be great. Thank you. Mungo Kitsch  (talk)  23:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * List of NBA, ABA, and BAA player articles without statistics tables
 * 1) All players who debuted in 1946-47, 1947-48, and 1948-49 have their full statistics. Therefore, all BAA players have their stats displayed on the English Wikipedia.
 * 2) The last player article from the 1946-47 BAA season whose stats were not displayed was that of Chuck Connors, who also played baseball professionally yet was mostly known for his acting career (i.e. The Rifleman). I had fixed this before starting the list.
 * 3) The last remaining BAA player without stats on his article was that of Andy Tonkovich, and I subsequently fixed that.
 * 4) The rookie classes from 1950 to the mid-1960s were relatively small, and this is reflected in the smaller number of statless articles listed here.
 * 5) I unexpectedly encountered two articles of ABA players, that of Grant Simmons and Richie Moore, that somehow do not yet exist. They were teammates on the 1967–68 Denver Rockets.
 * 6) The longest list is the 1967–68 ABA rookie class, with 125 entrants as of this post. One big reason for this is due to the founding of the ABA in 1967.
 * 7) One player who was in both the NBA and ABA has a weird stat table, with the shooting percentages at the far-right of the table. This is not the traditional order, and had I made the list according to the standards I eventually developed, he would have been mentioned on the list as a player article with a stat table that needed further organization. I have presently forgotten who this man is, and if his article can be brought to the fore I would appreciate that. I think he was with the ABA in the late-60s and NBA in the mid-70s, if I recall correctly.
 * 8) After the ABA–NBA merger of 1976, the number of statless articles according to rookie season consistently number in the 40s and 50s, sometimes in the 30s; these numbers start trending downward for the 1998–99 rookie class. Between 1999–2000 and 2006–07, the number of statless entrants are in the teens or 20s.
 * 9) Our English Wikipedia has been excellent at giving stat tables for active or recently active players. All or most players from the last 15 years with at least three years of experience have their stats accounted for. Case in point, the 2007–08 rookie class only has two statless entrants, and the number of entrants per rookie class afterward remain mostly similarly low; statless entrants, with three exceptions, do not exceed five per rookie class.
 * 10) The 2016–17 and 2020–21 are fully completed.
 * 11) Statless NBA player articles trend upward again for the 2021–22 season, with 15 entries at present.
 * 12) I did not hold the 2022–23 rookie class to the same standard as past rookie classes, due to 2022-23 being a pending season as of this post. My style is to update once a player's season ends, either naturally or via injury; or their tenure with the team ends partway into the season via a trade, waive, or expired/non-renewed contract. With the aforementioned exemption, I am confident that all NBA, ABA, and BAA players have been accounted for here.


 * Thanks for catching those 2 player articles that needed creation. I knocked them out this morning. SportsGuy789 (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Please note that neither of those article pass WP:GNG at the moment as they are required to do. I highly recommend adding at least two significant sources to the articles to prevent them being nominated to AfD. Alvaldi (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:NBA is responsible for NBA-related content so you might want to move this message there or at least notify everyone from WP:NBA about this list. Good luck. – Sabbatino 12:26, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Detroit Gems
The Detroit Gems played one season, 1946–47, in the National Basketball League (NBL), finishing dead last with a 4–44 record. Some sources state that the club was sold to Minnesota following the season and became the Minneapolis Lakers, others state that the team quit the league and the franchise (license?) was sold and some state that the Gems became the Detroit Vagabond Kings.. None of the Gems players played for the Lakers the following season and some of them played for the Vagabond Kings later.. So I am wondering, did the Lakers only buy the Gems' spot in the league, not the club itself, or are the Detroit Gems the original start of the Lakers? Alvaldi (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I have a couple physical books on the history of the NBL at home. I will try to remember to into look this tonight Rikster2 (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Did you have any luck on finding anything about this? Alvaldi (talk) 10:14, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Mr. Basketball: George Mikan, the Minneapolis Lakers, and the Birth of the NBA at p. 94 says the Gems players were dispersed to other NBL teams, and the team was sold and became the Lakers.—Bagumba (talk) 11:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm looking for a chart to demonstrate injuries during a season
Last year's UConn Huskies women suffered what I'm seeing reported as 78 player-games of "out by illness or injury" during 21-22 year. This year looks equally gruesome (they postponed vs. DePaul yesterday because six of their 12 players are out) but a graphic would help to better visualize the handicap, so to speak. Has somebody already done something similar? Suggestions? BusterD (talk) 16:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

bulk changing all NBA player pages
How would I go about proposing a change to every applicable NBA player page? On most other sports reference sites, the career statistics chart is marked with a star on the years a player made the All-Star Game. This would be a beneficial change, as All-Stars are a major award in the NBA. Being that Wikipedia is normally the first thing to show up when you google a player's name, the slight clarification to a player's stat section would be well-met.

Note that All-Star information is already categorized on the sidebar, it would just be a matter of going through and marking the stats table for ease of access. Would I just have to go through and do that to as many NBA players as I can? Rananth0207 (talk) 15:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

FAs last reviewed from 2004 to 2007 of interest to this WikiProject
If you review an article on this list, please add commentary at the article talk page, with a section heading == URFA/2020 review== and also add either Notes or Noticed to WP:URFA/2020A, per the instructions at WP:URFA/2020. Comments added here may be swept up in archives and lost, and more editors will see comments on article talk. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  21:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Michael Jordan
 * 2) Tim Duncan

Realgm.com discussion
Please join the discussion on this source at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:58, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Matt Hicks (basketball)
I also feel that this 4th round NBA draft pick probably played basketball somewhere after not making the NBA.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:55, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Bob Scrabis (basketball)
Another newly created page. I am not a good international basketball researcher. Please add international play if you know how to easily find it. This one is already at approved at Template:Did you know nominations/Bob Scrabis (basketball) and will be on the main page soon.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Kenny Williams (UIC basketball)
I just created Kenny Williams (UIC basketball). There is a non-RS in which Williams claims to have played international basketball for 10 years. I am not a good researcher for international basketball. Feel free to add what you know.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

response
At 04:16, February 27, 2023 (UTC) User:DaHuzyBru kindly left the following information on my User talk page. I am not sure how to incorporate this into either the infobox or the prose of the article. I have never worked with this format of information. I am basically a WP:CBBALL and WP:NBA editor in the United States. I am not sure which elements from the list below belong on WP and in what form. I am sure people in this project can assist.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC) Hey. Below is the content of the Kenny Williams usbasket profile.

I can't verify most of this content with quick google searches, and most of it has clearly been given to the website by a fan or someone close to the subject. DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Full name: Kendall Ovial Williams Nickname: Kenny Outlook Kenny is a great kid. He is tremendously gifted & he is a fantastic European pro. Kenny speaks well, loves basketball and life. He is fun, with great social skills at any level. Kenny is a teriffic person. He comes from a close family and hard working role models. He is one of the best players and persons you can bring on a team. Year-By-Year Career 1992-1994: Ill-Chicago (NCAA): 22ppg, 5apg, 3rpg, 41% 3pt, 83% FT 1995: NBA Seattle Supersonics Camp 1995,1996: 2 USA Marathon Tours vs. NCAA Division I Colleges 1997: IAAA European Tour 1997-1998: Murcia (Spain): was waived after a calf injury early in the year, In Nov.'97 signed 10-day contract with Trefl Sopot (Poland), in Feb.'98 replaced Chris Ensminger in Porto (Portugal): 21.9ppg, 5.7apg 1998: Milwaukee Bucks (NBA) Free Agent Camp: Before the NBA lockout, Kenny played well in a camp in Milwaukee. Several NBA teams have expressed interest in Kenny. 1998: Upper Deck All Stars Tour 1998-1999: in Dec.'98 signed with Sopot (Poland): 24.2ppg 1999-2000: Turk Telekom Ankara (Turkey), in Oct.'99 signed by Gravelines (France-ProA): 7 games: 11ppg, 2.9rpg, in Jan.'00 went to Stargard (Poland), but in Feb.'00 left the team and moved to Turkey 2000-2001: SKK Szczecin (Poland): 6 games: 17ppg, 3rpg, 5.2apg; had to leave the team in Oct.'00 due to team financial problems, in April '01 signed at Doncel Distributel La Serena (Spain-LEB2) 2001-2002: Doncel Distributel (Spain-LEB2) Nov.2002: Nike All-Stars Touring team (playing exhibition games against NCAA teams) 2003 November: Nike Elite All-Stars playing exhibition games against NCAA teams 2007: Drafted by Chicago Aztecas (PBL,2rd(15)) 2007-2008: Cicero Cometas (ABA) Awards/Achievements MWC First Team -1993 Polish League All-Star Game -1999

Mass draftification proposal on Olympians
You may be interested in this village pump discussion on draftifiying nearly a thousand Olympians. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

zamboanga valientes
see details i tried to fix (outdated roster / logo), and user reverting on its own (had few mistakes as with Jeff Viernes) thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.6.192 (talk) 06:04, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Is it so hard for you to provide sources? Engr. Smitty   Werben 06:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

McDonald's All-American Game
In 1983 was there any form of recognition other than 1983 McDonald's All-American Boys Game for which one could be termed a McDonald's All-American or is such a claim clearly false?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:18, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Peter Myers (basketball)
While creating Ray Hall (basketball), I stumbled across the 1988 CBA All-star team. I assume this is the Pete Myers who was a CBA all-star. Please confirm.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:02, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it was the Pete Myers who later played for the Bulls. Rikster2 (talk) 13:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:NCAA Basketball Championship (Philippines)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:NCAA Basketball Championship (Philippines) that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 15:34, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments
Quality assessments are used by Wikipedia editors to rate the quality of articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a class parameter to WikiProject banner shell, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to WikiProject banner shell, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project decides to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass WPBannerMeta a new custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:20, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Red Auerbach
Red Auerbach has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:20, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Serbia women's national basketball team
I'm not interested in editwarring with anons, but there's one logged out user (probably User:Adelbeighou, who probably was another user blocked years ago, User:Gagibgd?) who's adding Yugoslavian achievements with the opinion that Serbia is the inheritor of Yugoslavia. It is not right in any possible way. It seems to some Serbian editors it's: Step1 - add or combine SCG (Serbia and Montenegro) results and achievents to reflect their Serbian; Step2 - do the same with Yugoslavia. Do this to as many articles as possible and repeat tirelessly no matter if they are always reverted. Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:44, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Help with college stats table
Ray Hall (basketball) will hit the main page (DYK section) in about 10 hours without a college stats table and Matt Hicks (basketball) will follow a day later. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball, I asked for help with college stats tables. Feel free to help out.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:45, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

A couple of requested moves
Just so y'all know, I requested Karaliaus Mindaugo taurė to be moved to King Mindaugas Cup and Karaliaus Mindaugo taurė MVP to be moved to King Mindaugas Cup MVP per WP:ENGLISHNAME. Thought y'all might be interested in it as both of these articles are covered under Wikiproject Basketball. -- Shadow  of the  Starlit Sky  23:25, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Dean Smith move discussion
There is a move discussion underway to move Dean Smith to Dean Smith (basketball) and leave the original as a disambiguation page. Please participate in the discussion if you have an opinion on this. Rikster2 (talk) 23:05, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Division I seasons
See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_Basketball. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The 'Basketball in China' page 90% about the NBA in China.
Either it should be renamed, or information about basketball in China (besides the NBA) integrated. 2A00:23C7:BB01:5601:512E:3F9:D183:2F35 (talk) 21:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Draft info in bio infobox
There's a discussion at about standardizing a player's draft info in the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 10:36, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Reason for players, coaches, and seasons lists containing relocated teams
Hi there, this is just a curious question from someone trying to gain rationale over on ice hockey. Why do the season-by-season records, coaches, and players of NBA teams such as the Los Angeles Lakers, Oklahoma City Thunder, and Memphis Grizzlies include their relocated counterparts? Such as the Los Angeles Lakers including Minnesota Lakers players and coaches and their records. Why not split the articles? Conyo14 (talk) 07:13, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Presumably, reliable sources group them together as they are part of the same franchise. What's the argument to split them?—Bagumba (talk) 08:53, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No argument, just curious. Conyo14 (talk) 15:28, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Overtime Elite in infobox
What do others think about Overtime Elite teams going in the infobox? did so at Alexandre Sarr. The league is called "professional", but is it really on the level of regular leagues around the world? Are their teams really that notable? It is that the league is notable but the teams are just in-house and it's more like an institute or academy? DaHuzyBru (talk) 12:20, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * As it is only for 16-20 years old, isn't this basically an Under-20 league? Alvaldi (talk) 13:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The majority of Overtime Elite page was written by one of its employees and it reads like an advertisement. So no, they can write whatever they want but it does not look like a professional league. – sbaio 15:21, 29 May 2023 (UTC)


 * ,, . Hey, everyone. I was simply following what has already been live for months on infoboxes at pages such as Dominick Barlow, Ausar Thompson, Amen Thompson, Robert Dillingham and Jean Montero. To me, it seems natural to put the team names they actually play for, in spite of how silly they might look in the infobox. As for Overtime Elite, the league seems to be paying a minimum salary of $100,000 plus signing bonus and benefits. Throw in the genuinely world-class staff and facilities, and it's hard to argue that it's not a pro league. Let me know what you guys think here. Best, JTtheOG (talk) 17:09, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * For me the question is not whether it is professional or not, rather is this a senior team league or an Under-20 youth league? If this is a youth league, then it probably shouldn't be listed in the infobox. Alvaldi (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * But then why is there an exception for high school and colleges? And it seems we list pro teams that Europeans play in as teenagers. —Bagumba (talk) 00:50, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The Overtime Elite teams are not publicly known or reported on. I had to dig through web archive to find a source (primary source) to support Alexandre Sarr's 2021–22 team. Sarr's Overtime Elite profile bio doesn't even mention the team names. Both sources I added were team profile pages where the team lists were noted. Apart from that, it doesn't appear the organisation even cares that much let alone independent sources. DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:41, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If the team names are insignificant, what if we just show the stint as "Overtime Elite"? I was thinking the same applied to the Junior Basketball Association, but there was so much LaVar Ball hype before, that it probably actually got some coverage. —Bagumba (talk) 09:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Bagumba Although High schools and colleges are listed in the infobox, they are listed separately from the players senior team careers. The HS/C listing is of course the classical American way of junior basketball while the classic European way (and in various other places) is playing junior basketball with clubs (i.e. not schools) which is not mentioned in the infobox. Now we have this new way, which is a professional Under-20 league (or Under-21 in JBA's case). Maybe it is time to rethink how we display these Under-20/21 stints in the infobox. Football displays players youth teams in the infobox, see Cristiano Ronaldo, maybe thats the way to go for stints outside of HS/C? Alvaldi (talk) 09:41, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that Overtime Elite is likely be a new model. It is professional, if it's in fact paying $100,000. It is a youth league, if it doesn't include 20+ players like say the G League.  But we have high school and college ibx fields for youths, because they have historically been significant in U.S. (and Canada?) coverage. I have limited knowledge about Overtime Elite and the European model, so I'm more brainstorming or playing devil's advocate at this point, without a firm opinion. —Bagumba (talk) 10:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

It was years ago and nobody probably had something like Overtime Elite in mind, but there were the following discussions in 2011: —Bagumba (talk) 10:17, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Unanimous support to list minor league teams, though people might have only been narrowly thinking of the NBA-sponsored development league at the time.
 * Unanimous support to list, but no direct mention of youth leagues.

So there was no consensus here. I don't mind the idea of showing the stint as "2021–2023 Overtime Elite" rather than the individual teams as I don't see how this info can be sourced in the future due to how obscure the team names are and the fact they aren't recorded anywhere. Usbasket doesn't cover Overtime Elite games. Can we come to an agreement on that? I'm not set on that, so still happy for more ideas. DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:04, 2 June 2023 (UTC)


 * As it stands, it is a Under-20 league so the consensusis, as I understand it, that it shouldn't be listed with the senior teams (i.e. adult teams). I suggest having it similar to the college section (May call it "Youth League: Overtime Elite (2021–2023)" or as a separate youth team section similar to football/soccer. Alvaldi (talk) 09:28, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Consensus means majority of people agree, which is not the case here. If others agree that there needs to be a new section or field in the infobox, they need to state that here. DaHuzyBru (talk) 09:53, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The documention at Template:Infobox basketball biography is probably American-centric. It doesn't really specify what goes in the "Career section", but anything professional basically went there. For non-US leagues, is there any documented convention, or it's just been a de facto practice to keep out junior teams? Like if I look at Abramo Canka, should all those teams be there?—Bagumba (talk) 10:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding Abramo Canka: under age youth teams no, pre-college pro/semi-pro teams yes. He played pro for the first time in 2019–20. DaHuzyBru (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * All the teams in Canka's infobox are professional. However, it depends by country how many leagues are professional. Things are different in Europe and other parts of the world than in the United States/Canada. – sbaio 12:24, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Do players get paid in youth leagues in Europe? Or only in semi-pro?—Bagumba (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Serie A2 and Serie B Basket are not youth leagues. You would be amazed how many leagues one country can have in Europe (at least) and how many departments one team can have (same sport or even other sports like FC Barcelona). But speaking of youth leagues – players are not paid (at least in Europe). – sbaio 12:44, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Note
National Basketball League (New Zealand)

https://nznbl.basketball/history/about-nbl/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:DaHuzyBru&action=view

I want to bring this user and league + its clubs he vandalized under attention, despite league history link + all club websites dont have single source they are not professional. Please help protect personal wishes and faks news from facts. Lastly, he even calls himself an "expert" (" ") 83.131.48.59 (talk) 00:46, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Me the vandal?? You link the NZNBL website claiming that this page says the league is professional. Nowhere in that link is "professional" said. It says "pre-eminent", meaning it's the top league in New Zealand, not that it is professional. Apart from import players, the local New Zealand players are not full time basketball players. They play locally and go to university or have a job. The coaches as well are not full time – Aaron Young of the Tuatara works at a secondary school in Auckland. The NZNBL is on the same level as the Australian state leagues (NBL1) – import players with local signings. Some of the local players don't even travel on road games – most teams will take 8 or 9 players for away games. I'm happy for others to chime in here if they think the league should be classed as professional. If there is a consensus, I will happily align. DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The following independent articles all support semi professional. Stuff.co.nz, odt.co.nz and nzherald.co.nz are all reputable news sites in New Zealand that cover the NZNBL and have been for many years. Peter Lampp (stuff), Adrian Seconi (odt) and Anendra Singh (nzherald) have covered this league for a long time. "As with June and his energy, McTamney's enthusiasm is unbridled and most days he's working with the semi-professional Jets." "The Nuggets are a largely amateur team competing in a semi-professional league where the bigger the budgets are, the better the results tend to be." "says regardless of whether the Kiwis earn $5000 or $500 abroad the NZ league is a semi-professional stage." DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be in line with the WP:REPUTABLE guideline (emphasis added): —Bagumba (talk) 12:05, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * This NZNBL post from September 2021 says "The Sal's NBL is the pre-eminent semi-professional men's basketball league in New Zealand." There is not much more I need to say here. DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:41, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @83.131.48.59: Please refer to WP:NOTVANDALISM and Dispute resolution.—Bagumba (talk) 12:02, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Enterprise Wolves Basketball for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Enterprise Wolves Basketball is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Enterprise Wolves Basketball until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:21, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Link Academy (Missouri)
I started Link Academy (Missouri), which is an upstart school with one of the best high school basketball teams in the United States. I've added a few sources but there is plenty of room for growth.--User:Namiba 23:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Euroleague article titles
There is a set of articles that seem to have been missed when the format of titles was changed a few years ago. These are articles with titles of the form "Euroleague 20xx–yy zzzzzz" (e.g. Euroleague 2007–08 Top 16 Group D or Euroleague 2013–14 Regular Season Group A. My understanding is that the year range should come first e.g. "2013–14 Euroleague Regular Season Group A". Is this right? Colonies Chris (talk) 10:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it should be changed. It seems the Euroleague titles started following the format from 2014–15. Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:12, 15 July 2023 (UTC)