User talk:Ost316/Archive 18

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Reference errors on 6 January
Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. as follows: Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=User:A930913/RBpreload&editintro=User:A930913/RBeditintro&minor=&title=User_talk:A930913&preloadtitle=ReferenceBot%20–%20&section=new report it to my operator]. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * On the Only-begotten Son page, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=758668101 your edit] caused an unsupported parameter error (help) . ([ Fix] | [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&preload=User:ReferenceBot/helpform&preloadtitle=Referencing%20errors%20on%20%5B%5BSpecial%3ADiff%2F758668101%7COnly-begotten Son%5D%5D Ask for help])

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Your recent AWB edits
Hey, something's off with your AWB script- when you removed the google translate wrapper on these edits, you also put in square brackets half in, half out of the reference. -- Pres N  21:29, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Whoops. Thanks for catching that and letting me know. I'll check it out and at least watch out for those edits. —Ost (talk) 21:33, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

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"Circular references"
In this edit, you converted full map citations over to wikilinks under the guise of WP:CIRCULAR. There are two issues with that edit. First, they aren't circular references. They're scanned copies of old maps hosted on Wikimedia Commons, but they're not creations of Wikimedians. They're the product of either the American Association of State Highway [and Transportation] Officials (AASHO/AASHTO) or a federal government agency. Second, your edit removed all of the various metadata about the authorship, dates of publication, publishers, etc on those citations by reducing them from filled out cite maps to bare interwikilinks.  Imzadi 1979  →   22:03, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I apologize for stripping the metadata and thank you for fixing it and alerting me. I am, however, less compelled by the argument that the items aren't WP:CIRCULAR; anyone can upload items to Commons and they don't get validated for accuracy. It's important for us to support the project with reliable, independent sources. —Ost (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * These are reliable, independent sources; they just happen to have copies hosted on Commons so that they're easily accessed and verified by others.  Imzadi 1979  →   22:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * This seems rife for abuse. The articles in question may be legitimate, but there are a number of things that could be wrong: the scans could be doctored, the scanned document could be a forgery, etc. I'm not going to fall on my sword for the issue as it's probably not a major concern and it's probably better than a picture from a random Angelfire page, but for references, I still think it best to link to an outside sources that has already independently verified the integrity of the source. —Ost (talk) 22:50, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

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Empty terms
Please do not remove these such as you did here Thanks  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 22:04, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Care to explain why? I've never known a need to retain blank parameters. —Ost (talk) 22:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure because we want people to fill in the data for most of them. I plan to get around to it if no one beats me to it. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 02:40, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll try to be more discerning if I remove blank parameters in the future. Often, they seem to be added because someone copied from another page or pasted the entire template, even if they aren't entirely applicable. I generally feel that it's relatively easy to add parameters by looking them up or comparing the source of a similar article, but I get the rationale of making them easy to see. I do want to see values filled in where it's reasonable to do so. —Ost (talk) 13:19, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Sad Sam & Honey has been accepted
 Sad Sam & Honey, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created. The article has been assessed as Stub-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article. You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. . Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia! Sulfurboy (talk) 05:48, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk&action=edit&section=new&nosummary=1&preload=Template:AfC_talk/HD_preload&preloadparams%5B%5D=Sad_Sam_%26_Honey help desk] .
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Nomination of Sad Sam & Honey for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Sad Sam & Honey is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Sad Sam & Honey until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. — Za  wl  08:21, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Replacing ~1 → ≈1
Is there some kind of manual of style entry on this? It's just that this kind of change looks a little jarring. I've always used ~ as "approximately" and reserved ≈ for "approximately equal to." Thanks. --tronvillain (talk) 23:43, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know of a guideline, but I've treated it as a cleanup activity similar to changing spaces to dashes to en-dashes or em-dashes. I read "approximately" and "approximately equal" with the same meaning. As explained on the one source in the section you linked, "This character is used in mathematics as an operator for 'is proportional or similar to'. ... The double tilde U+2248 is the correct mathematical operator for 'is approximately equal to'." I'm not sure when that source was added, but the tilde page historically had a circular reference in that section and I had not found a source that describes "~" an actual replacement for "approximately". I've thought that it was used because keyboards don't have "≈" keys and people use that as the closest replacement. I concede that the source also states that the tilde "is also commonly used in text as a sign of approximation," but I'm still not personally swayed; the tilde has multiple meanings as opposed to the double tilde's and because some fonts render the tilde has a superscript, it is more clear to use the double tilde. I'm just one editor and haven't noticed these edits being reverted often, and I don't intentionally change them back if someone felt strongly enough to revert it. —Ost (talk) 16:13, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. It just seems to run contrary to usual practice. Granted, that practice may have evolved due to the lack of a "≈" key, but it seems pretty common now. --tronvillain (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

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Category:Wikipedians who like NationStates
Hey! Based on your edits to NationStates, I thought maybe you would be interested that I started a series of userboxes for the game. Feel free to add any or add your own!- 🐦Do☭torWho42 ( ⭐ ) 06:17, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

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Reversion of editing changes
I have reverted your edits for a second time. Your original editing changes, which consisted moslty of wiki tweaks, was unexplained. There were several types of edits made - one was to add spaces between a heading title and the equal signs and the other was to add a space line after a heading. Other changes included alteration of referencing style and tweaking links to related wiki articles.

Your edit summary simply stated that the edit was "Cleaned up using AutoEd" which explains how the edit was done, but not why it was considered necessary.

Unexplained edits can be deleted at any time. The onus is on the person making the changes to provide substantive reasons as to why the changes were deemed necessary. I cannot see any logical reason as to why your edits add value to the article. The Manual of Style (MoS) suggests the following: 1. explicitly gives the example of headings without spaces between the word in the title and the equal signs, but notes that 'some editors prefer spaces around "Title". 2. explicitly states that the use of a space line after a heading is optional. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style&action=edit&section=4 3. Wikipedia has no prescribed referencing format, provided that the style is used consistently throughout the article 4. Wikipedia has a number of ways of embedding wiki links e.g. "See" "Further information" "Main article" and "Main" - all of which are acceptable

Given that (1), (2) and (3) are optional, there is no good reason for changing the original editor's preferences in relation to format.

In relation to the (2) your changes were not applied consistently so that the article is left with a mix of headings with and without space lines following the heading. And, the changes to the reference style were not applied consistently throughout the article, leaving it with a mix of styles, which is generally considered poor form. In relation to (2) changes to referencing format were done consistently so that the article is left with a mix of headings with and without space lines following the heaaing. With respect to (3) changes to the reference style have also left the article with a mix of styles in the article, which is generally considered poor form.

In all, the editing changes made created more problems and issues than they addressed. As for your comment that it is " not worth time to remove them" clearly it was worth your time to remove the original edits. You can't have it both ways - clearly it is worth your time and effort to remove some other editors' work, but subsequently claim that it is not worth anyone's time to revert your editing changes. Either it is worth it - or it is not worth it. It worthiness should not be dependent on who is doing something.

The manual of style states that "On some questions of style, the MoS provides more than one acceptable answer; on other questions it gives no guidance" and that "edit-warring over styles is never acceptable." If you wish to change the style of presentation currently used in an article or have issues with the current style and format then the MoS encourages editors to discuss it on the article's talkpage. BronHiggs (talk) 23:12, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your position and response, but it feels like you are WP:OWNing this article. Though my edit summary was more than simply "Cleaned up using AutoEd", for most people, "cleaning up" is a valid edit summary, and the link to WP:AutoEd explains the kind of edits that it does. Before the auto-included portion, I also put ref cleanup, which is what I noticed needed cleanup first. AutoEd (as you can read up on) is replacing bad spaces, removing needless ones, and replacing dashes, among other things. But AutoEd isn't even the part that is adding the spaces that you find so offensive (even though you agree that they are optional); that's the Auto-Format button that is part of Wikipedia's enheanced editor. Honestly, I've thought for a long time that it shouldn't add the spaces or that it should format them to the most commonly used format on the page, but I've long stopped caring because you're the first editor that has complained to me. From my experience, most editors just don't care if there are spaces or not. If you think that this general behavior should be stopped, I suggest you take it up with the people that support the enhanced editing toolbar. Otherwise, I think you will find that edits like this happen more frequently than you realize.
 * Your argument about mixed referenced formats is off base from the start, because the article already has mixed formats (see #19 that I specifically targeted because it has ""). The solution isn't to throw out everything, it's to improve the outliers. Wikipedia is iterative collaboration and fixing some problems doesn't require fixing all of them. Another editor is more than welcome to make the references consistent, but you're reverting to make them inconsistent on the page and across Wikipedia. Similarly, there is no current pattern to spaces under headings in the article, so I should not have to ensure that they are consistent after an edit.
 * There is so much more in the audience measurement article that warrants cleanup and improvement; I'm note sure why this is the part you are focusing on, but I hope my most recent edit is satisfactory to you. Ost (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree that this article needs a lot of work - so much so that I have resisted the temptation to get started on it. I have overhauled more than 20 articles in the marketing/advertising area, but this one is not on my priority list. The article's problems are more in the area of conceptualisation, theoretical grounding etc than in style. If I were to tackle this article, it would be to add accurate definitions and ensure that they are used correctly, organise its content into a logical sequence that flows etc. In no way do I have an ownership disposition towards the piece. However, I consider that all attemtps to improve the article should add real value. Making minor wiki tweaks, and changing optional stylistic conventions does little to move the article forward. As you can see from my comments above, the issue involved a lot more than just spacing considerations. The general modus operandi on Wikipedia is that we don't make editing changes for reasons of personal preference. If the current style is within guidelines then it is best left alone, and if anyone has a strong reason for making changes, this should be discussed with a view to gaining concensus. Alternatively, a bold editing approach might consider imposing some consistency in say, referencing, before tackling other types of changes. I do not use any toolbars, and have little interest in these types of tools. So I will not be taking anything up with any toolbar discussion group. BronHiggs (talk) 00:29, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I applaud you for making large overhauls to articles and I wish I had time to do that more often, but I would probably also edit a page for a misplaced comma in addition to larger copyedits. Bots make small changes for cleanup and affect them on a much larger scale, so I don't avoid them making small fixes to articles that I'm reading. In this case, it was the plaintext link in the references that jumped out as different from the others. I had no intention of forcing a personal preference, but merely add more value by making generally uncontroversial changes with a feature from the toolbar that has been in Gadgets for years. As I explained, I cannot recall another complaint or revert, but it is good to remind me that generally uncontroversial is not the same as always uncontroversial. We seem to have different opinions on what is "real value", not only because I'm fine with smaller edits, but because I think your revert added little or negative value. However, I have no interest in pushing this issue; my initial response was from surprise that someone cared and (based on the edit summary) seemed to not see that the edit had more than heading changes and thought MOS disallows spaces around header symbols. I understand your rationale better now and wish you happy editing. Ost (talk) 04:26, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

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Reference formatting in Estampie article
Thanks for the edit summary explaining your reasoning, and for understanding that Harvard referencing style might not be accidental. The footnote markup has been around for a long time, certainly longer than the article Estampie so, as you speculated, the choice of style was deliberate. Best wishes.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * No problem, and thanks for understanding. That's why I left the edit summary. Apparently, I also read the date wrong on the page where I saw the references added, which helped support my incorrect assumption. I have no desire to edit war and thought the page wasn't visited enough to warrant a discussion, though I should have brushed up on WP:CITEVAR, which all but requires one. I frankly just don't understand why anyone would prefer that parenthetical format; to me, it makes harder to note when information comes from multiple sources and makes the text cluttered and harder to read, but that's obviously my opinion. Happy editing Ost (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It is so odd but, though I have occasionally heard opinions similar to yours, my impression is exactly the opposite: parenthetical referencing makes it much easier to understand when information comes from multiple sources (since they are before the reader's eyes, instead of bundled together in a single footnote at the end of the article or, worse, hidden in a blur of consecutive numerals which may or may not refer to separate sources), and less distracting because there is never any need to jump away from the text and back again (not even virtually, by hovering the cursor over the annoying little blue numeral). Not only that, but footnotes discourage collecting all the sources together in an alphabetical list by author's name, which is of greatest benefit to editors, perhaps, but it makes it much easier to check for conspicuous omissions or bias for a single POV than when all the sources are jumbled together in a disarray determined entirely by the order in which the items are cited. In any case, thanks again for your considerate approach, and happy editing to you, too!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your explanation of your perspective. We may have different preferences for reading and verifying articles, but it sounds like we have similar goals. I will agree with you that the alphabetical list of references is nice and I do like that harv class of citations for making it easy to refer to them. I hadn't really though about it, but you are probably correct that makes it less likely for that section to be created; I'm guilty of rarely creating a section like that, largely because it's a relatively manual nature. —Ost (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Quite so. There is nothing in any of the Wikipedia citation guidelines that even suggests that an alphabetical list of sources should not be included when the rats-nest footnote option is chosen, and yet I cannot think of a single article I have seen that has both.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:22, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

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A recent edit
A recent edit you made, I believe by a script, to Dink (nickname) changed the name "Dink" to "dink". Should it not remain capitalized as a name? I believe it should.--John Cline (talk) 18:31, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * You're correct. I was working on two pages and likely got myself confused; I don't think that the script is to blame. Thanks for the correction. —Ost (talk) 18:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Redundant qualifiers in Style
On January 29, 2018, I removed many qualifiers from the style disambiguation page because they were redundant. You just reinserted them. Why? For example,in


 * "Style" (Orbital song), a 1999 single by Orbital

why did you change (song) to (Orbital song), when the description clearly indicates that the song is by Orbital?

Why did you change


 * Style, a 2009 Korean television series

to


 * Style (TV series), a 2009 Korean television series

when the description clearly indicates that this is a television series?

Why change


 * Hairstyle

to


 * Hairstyle, the styling of hair

when it is perfectly obvious that hairstyle is the styling of hair, and similarly in ten other places? This sort of redundancy is specifically deprecated at MOS:DABENTRY—Anita5192 (talk) 20:02, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I should point out that these edits were suggestions by a tool that is designed to get pages in line with MOSDAB. If MOS had changed since the tool was last written or I last reviewed the guidelines, it would be reasonable that I was unknowingly making edits contrary to current MOS. However, after reviewing the link you provided, I see no indication of the deprecation you claim. I not only stand by my edits for the reasons below, but I also note that you are the one that you took the page out of MOS compliance. I agree that MOSDAB format does indeed create redundancy in a number of cases, but it's the style that has been adopted and in use for a while; I will continue to edit that way unless another consensus is reached. The specifics for your examples are:
 * Style (song) redirects to Style, so it should not be displayed as a page name, especially not for multiple songs. MOS:DABENTRY states "The article title should appear exactly as it is on the target page; the link should not be piped except to apply formatting (see § Where piping may be appropriate)." My edit got this entry in line with this rule.
 * The same rule above is what applies to the television series
 * For Hairstyle, I find it completely reasonable the someone does not know what the term means (i.e., perhaps it means hair type or a stylus made out of hair, as opposed to styling of hair). What I used was a shortened and generalized form of the introductory sentence of that page because I feel that an arguably self-evident description (that anyone can edit to something better) is better than nothing. Since both Style and Hair have dab pages, it's obvious that the terms are not always clear alone, let alone when made into a compound word. —Ost (talk) 20:59, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

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