User talk:PamD/Archive 15

The Signpost: 24 April 2022
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edit conflict
apologies, there are some examples of truly eccentric referencing at the lady lee steere and I have lost them all (the corrections) after the edit conflict, not sure I am going to try again tonight, but there is a major problem with identifying places against Australia when there are more than one... Needless to say I have a very distant and indirect and complex connection (in no way coi) with the subject, and was hoping to clean up a bit... It seems if I understand trove there were two lady lee steere's - but it might be time of night and my misreading...

try for size: - {cite news |url=http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article147732169 |title=LADY LEE STEERE. |newspaper=The South-western News |volume=XX, |issue=971 |location=Western Australia |date=10 November 1922 |accessdate=3 May 2022 |page=3 |via=National Library of Australia}}
 * I am wondering where the on earth canning city came from ? It's like the eccentric Perth Australia which is clearly false. JarrahTree 16:32, 2 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm just about to make a dab page - her son was also knighted so there are 2 Lady LS. As for Canning? The infobox was linking to a football club! This is a new and enthusiastic editor who has learned a lot but needs to learn more - see my essays on her talk page. But really "Perth, Australia" is what most of us think of as a natural term, to distinguish from Scotland, not knowing about Tasmania! I hope I've reinstated your edits OK: in the recent ec I had done so many little apostrophe changes etc that I was reluctant to lose them. Pam  D  16:36, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your understanding and explanation, much appreciated - I have a deep ingrained dislike of things like 'perth australia', but that's a long unnecessary story at this point - Thanks for cleaning up things, the story of lee steere family is an interesting mine of western australian history, and its good that there is some venturing into... Thanks again, I do hope I didnt seem too complaining, it has been, an interesting day. JarrahTree 16:43, 2 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Three Lady LSs so far! I had good intentions for getting RL stuff done today - WIkipedia does lead us down so many timesink rabbitholes! Pam  D  16:46, 2 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you I had yet another edit conflict that was identifying the third - I wouldnt be surprised in the least is there are other noble versions of the family with names or accolades as yet uncovered... gotta go... JarrahTree 16:49, 2 May 2022 (UTC)


 * As Bridget has stuff named after her, Lady Lee Steere campsite or whatever, it seemed important to provide that access, so here we are! Yes, there are probably umpteen other families where we haven't listed all the "Lady X" wives. Ah well. Just looked at clock. Entire afternoon gone.  Pam  D  16:53, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Had no idea that wasn't a stub
I saw The First Academy coming up short and with natural instinct I marked it as a stub. I wonder how that wasn't? (not mad just curious as to how stubs are marked) GreenGrenier (talk) 11:56, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no very clear definition of a stub, but "coming up short", ie having scope for improvement and expansion, does not make something a stub: almost every article short of a WP:FA has scope for expansion and improvement. WP:STUB goes some way to describing. This one had 200 words, several refs, an infobox, seemed to be beyond a stub, though not by miles. If an article has been around since 2008, tagged as a stub up to about 2011 but no longer, it is unlikely to be useful to label it now as a stub. To be honest, if the stub tag had been in the right place, at the bottom of the article (see WP:ORDER) I might have stubsorted it to Florida-school-stub, but when a stub tag is in the wrong place and seems marginal, especially when editing on my phone where I have to edit one section at a time so it would have taken two separate edits to put the right stub tag in the right place, it's a hassle and I removed the tag.
 * I didn't see much advertising, though I've tweaked the boasting about "best private school" to adjust it to what the sources say. If it had been honoured for 7 years, it needs a source which says so. (When that "advert" tag was added the article looked like this: some unsourced boasting about sport and an infobox but nothing much else!)
 * The most interesting thing was the paragraph about demographics, which started talking about a student body of 522 in 2018, compared to 1400 (or "over 1250") now. Odd. Looking at the source it was for a completely separate school in Leesburg in a different county of Florida! I've now removed that section (Hmm, is it now short enough to be a stub? Probably not.) The article has had a complicated edit history with a lot of COI editing, which happens with schools sometimes.
 * I hope some of that explanation helps clarify. Happy Editing! Pam  D  13:58, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you for dialling back my axe swinging PamD, i'm actually fairly inclusionist (you have to be at WP India) but it was very late and those sources had already worn me down from a recent encounter. Not entirely sure what i was thinking about the church and school, i've seen the likes a thousand times in village articles, but in this instance they just felt a bit fancrufty.

I've restored three of the changes i made, such as directly citing the Cameroon Tribune (rather than the aggregate All-Africa), removing lede overcite re Fako (the cite is unnecessary as the Fako article i linked to (verified content) supports that Buea is a sub-division of Fako) and removing the Bakweri statement. That specific statement about the tribal majority is imo OR, based on more general information, and anything relating to group identity (tribes, caste etc) and a location has the potential to be contentious.

The excessive stub category was my bad, i got a bit mixed up between specific stub categories and the sitewide maintenance one which iirc previously had to be populated separately.

I hope the current revision of Lysoka Moliwe is agreeable and that you can see there was at least some reason behind the apparent madness. All the best, Zindor (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem, glad you weren't upset at my reverting, it seemed the easiest way to retrieve some useful stuff in among the dodgy references. I just came across it while stub-sorting, had a look at the history, and got a bit interested in it. It's now in a better state than it was before we both came by! Pam  D  14:41, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter May 2022
Hello ,

At the time of the last newsletter (No.26, September 2021), the backlog was 'only' just over 6,000 articles. In the past six months, the backlog has reached nearly 16,000, a staggering level not seen in several years. A very small number of users had been doing the vast majority of the reviews. Due to "burn-out", we have recently lost most of this effort. Furthermore, several reviewers have been stripped of the user right for abuse of privilege and the articles they patrolled were put back in the queue.

Several discussions on the state of the process have taken place on the talk page, but there has been no action to make any changes. The project also lacks coordination since the "position" is vacant.

In the last 30 days, only 100 reviewers have made more than 8 patrols and only 50 have averaged one review a day. There are currently Special:ListUsers/patroller New Page Reviewers, but about a third have not had any activity in the past month. All administrators have this permission, but only about a dozen significantly contribute to NPP.

This means we have an active pool of about 450 to address the backlog. We cannot rely on a few to do most of the work as that inevitably leads to burnout. A fairly experienced reviewer can usually do a review in a few minutes. If every active reviewer would patrol just one article per day, the backlog would very quickly disappear.

If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, do suggest they help the effort by placing on their talk page.

If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here. Sent 05:18, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Love Makes the World Go 'Round (Deon Jackson song)
You don't think it is bare urls on this article. There is no publishing information on these sources. Its is 2022.  scope_creep Talk  14:20, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * No, they are not bare URLs. Some may need page numbers etc perhaps, but the last one has all it needs except possibly an access-date. I don't see what the year has to do with it. Pam  D  14:28, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added "Bare URLs" to WP:GLOSSARY. Pam  D  14:36, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That could really help I think.   scope_creep Talk  14:38, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 May 2022
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Editing newsletter 2022 – #1
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The New topic tool helps editors create new ==Sections== on discussion pages. New editors are more successful with this new tool. You can read the report. Soon, the Editing team will offer this to all editors at most WMF-hosted wikis. You can join the discussion about this tool for the English Wikipedia is at Village pump (proposals). You will be able to turn it off in the tool or at Special:Preferences.

The Editing team plans to change the appearance of talk pages. These are separate from the changes made by the Desktop improvements project and will appear in both Vector 2010 and Vector 2022. The goal is to add some information and make discussions look visibly different from encyclopedia articles. You can see some ideas at Wikipedia talk:Talk pages project.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk)

23:14, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

June events from Women in Red
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 09:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Books & Bytes – Issue 50
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 50, March – April 2022 
 * New library partner - SPIE
 * 1Lib1Ref May 2022 underway

Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --12:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC) (UTC)

Marudamalai moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Marudamalai, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) There are THREE spellings of Marudamalai in this article - the title, the timetable and the lede - and the place name does not appear anywhere in the lists of places in Coimbatore Division or Metropolitan area, so notability is really an issue, as well. The temple is notable, but already has its own page. Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 07:27, 3 June 2022 (UTC)


 * It's always worth checking the edit history of an article before leaving a message like this. I created a redirect in 2016. The article you draftified was written over that redirect on 22 May 2022, and I have copied the above message to the appropriate editor's talk page. Pam  D  07:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Pam - I completely missed that, having about 10 zillion windows open for Coimbatore region pages and the like trying to make sense of this wee mess. Sorry for disturb! :) Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 07:38, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Marudamalai has been accepted
Automessage deleted. Sorry - I've done the same as Alexandermcnabb above. Please disregard. (I thought there was enough sourcing to justify the article, but have asked for it to be moved to the commoner spelling over the redirect). Ingratis (talk) 08:28, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks about Bananas
Thanks for your edits to that article, I sensed I had something imperfect about it and it was that I did not catch the second edition, or I confused the 2nd and 3rd editions. I have the first edition here and think it is a fantastic book. I appreciate your edits. CT55555 (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I was confused initially - I told my book club this afternoon that he'd published a new ed with the shorter title, but I think it's a dumbed-down title for the (humourless?) American market. That said, I need to buy the 2nd ed, as mine is 1st ed too. Great book. (Note for Talk page watchers: We're talking about How Bad Are Bananas?) Pam  D  18:52, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It's probably the book I've quoted most in real life ("stop worrying about how you dry your dishes and worry about how you travel and heat your home").
 * My 2011 copy looks like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:How_Bad_Are_Bananas%3F_book_cover.jpeg so was about to put that in, but I think you beat me to it. :-)
 * Thanks for the collaboration, a wikipedia joy, I think the universe is sending me a sign to spend more time creating content than arguing at AfD. CT55555 (talk) 18:56, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Peter Scott-Morgan
"The first sentence should usually state:... Dates of birth and death, if found in secondary sources....   The opening paragraph should usually have dates of birth and (when applicable) death. These dates (specific day–month–year) are important information about the subject...". The caveat that follows is irrelevant in this case - the default position is to include them in the opening sentence, and your different personal preference is irrelevant. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * So what does the caveat mean, then, and why do you think it is irrelevant? Pam  D  16:42, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * (Note to talk-page watchers: discussion of Peter Scott-Morgan and MOS:BIRTHDATE: the full sentence quoted in part above is: "These dates (specific day–month–year) are important information about the subject, but if they are also mentioned in the body, the vital year range (in brackets after the person's full name) may be sufficient to provide context. ) Pam  D  16:46, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This is bizarre. It was you who moved the dates into the main text, so you can hardly use the argument that the caveat applies "if they are also mentioned in the body..." - because it was your edit that made the wholly unnecessary change to the previous text in which the dates were not mentioned in the body.  I find it extremely irritating, and counter to our aims as encyclopedia builders, when experienced and apparently well-meaning editors actively remove basic information from opening sections, when it is clearly accurate, sourced, helpful to readers, in line with MOS, and "important information about the subject".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I moved the dates into the main text, so that they were then not required in the lead sentence. The birth date had only recently been sourced and added. Until his death the only birth/date information we had was the calculated "1957 or 1958". The full dates are "important information about the subject" and obviously need to be in the article, but the lead is only a summary of the content of the article, and the detailed dates are not necessary there. The years are sufficient, the full details, which will be repeated in the body of the article, are excessive in the lead sentence. I disagree with your edits but don't want to waste my energy on an edit war which you seem determined to win. The full dates are indeed "accurate, sourced, helpful to readers, in line with MOS, and "important information about the subject"", but they don't need to be in the lead sentence to be so. Pam  D  18:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * That's a bit like arguing that someone's full name does not "need" to be in the opening sentence. But it's useful to have it there, and it is conventional, and usually completely uncontentious, for biographical articles here to have the dates in the opening sentence.  I haven't seen any valid arguments for removing them.  While you personally may think that having only the years is "sufficient", it is hardly being helpful to readers to exclude such basic details as dates.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:14, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

"World order (disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect World order (disambiguation) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 June 21 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 11:43, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

For my talk-page watchers: an alternative time-sink to editing
In case you didn't spot the mention of it in a recent Signpost, I can highly recommend "Redactle" as a fascinating daily puzzle (changes at 5pm UK time). Guess a Wikipedia article with most of its text redacted. Simple. Those of us familiar with Wiki articles have something of a head start: I cracked "War and Peace" in 4 guesses by noticing that in the lead the "and" in "XXX and XXXXX" was italicised. Have fun.

Yesterday I had to cheat (well, seek help): I got that he was a German philosopher in 28 guesses, found that he was alive during World War I, then spent far too long filling in other odd words here and there before resorting to Category:20th-century German philosophers - and even then might have struggled but that he shared a forename with someone better known (one of those with an eponymous category). Other recent targets have included Skirt, Literary genre, William the Conqueror (got it in 3 having used a guess on "c" to confirm that that explained the format of the birth date!), Cannibalism, Lisbon, Plasma (physics) (which for a while had me looking for a country or region divided into four states...), Monosaccharide (took a l-o-n-g time), Shaktism (once I found it was a denomination of Hinduism, as knew I didn't know any so had a look at Denominations of Hinduism). Pam D  17:39, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter June 2022
Hello ,

At the time of the last newsletter (No.27, May 2022), the backlog was approaching 16,000, having shot up rapidly from 6,000 over the prior two months. The attention the newsletter brought to the backlog sparked a flurry of activity. There was new discussion on process improvements, efforts to invite new editors to participate in NPP increased and more editors requested the NPP user right so they could help, and most importantly, the number of reviews picked up and the backlog decreased, dipping below 14,000 at the end of May.
 * Backlog status

Since then, the news has not been so good. The backlog is basically flat, hovering around 14,200. I wish I could report the number of reviews done and the number of new articles added to the queue. But the available statistics we have are woefully inadequate. The only real number we have is the net queue size.

In the last 30 days, the top 100 reviewers have all made more than 16 patrols (up from 8 last month), and about 70 have averaged one review a day (up from 50 last month).

While there are more people doing more reviews, many of the ~730 with the NPP right are doing little. Most of the reviews are being done by the top 50 or 100 reviewers. They need your help. We appreciate every review done, but please aim to do one a day (on average, or 30 a month).

A backlog reduction drive, coordinated by buidhe and Zippybonzo, will be held from July 1 to July 31. Sign up here. Barnstars will be awarded.
 * Backlog drive

Many new articles on schools are being created by new users in developing and/or non-English-speaking countries. The authors are probably not even aware of Wikipedia's projects and policy pages. WP:WPSCH/AG has some excellent advice and resources specifically written for these users. Reviewers could consider providing such first-time article creators with a link to it while also mentioning that not all schools pass the GNG and that elementary schools are almost certainly not notable.
 * TIP – New school articles

There is a new template available,, to show the current backlog. You can place it on your user or talk page as a reminder:
 * Misc

There has been significant discussion at WP:VPP recently on NPP-related matters (Draftification, Deletion, Notability, Verifiability, Burden). Proposals that would somewhat ease the burden on NPP aren't gaining much traction, although there are suggestions that the role of NPP be fundamentally changed to focus only on major CSD-type issues.


 * Reminders
 * Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
 * If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing on their talk page.
 * If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
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 * Notes

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Re: Box Office Poison
In regards to your statement: "Undid revision 1095091106 by 97.113.61.155 (talk) no, that single mention in a quote is not enough to need a hatnote- no-one will be looking for that article at that title"

The average price of a movie ticket in 1979 was $4.59. "Chairman of the Board" grossed a total of $181,233. So a little under 40,000 people saw Chairman of the Board. Meanwhile, the Norm clip in which he refers to said movie as "Box Office Poison" is sitting at somewhere north of 3 million views - and that's just for the latest upload. So it is inarguable that far more people have seen the Norm clip than the Carrot Top film, and thus may get confused as to what its title is. Thus, it is perfectly reasonable to have that hatnote, and I have the numbers to back me up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.46.235 (talk) 09:28, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

The Signpost: 26 June 2022
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Women in Red in July 2022
--Lajmmoore (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

NPP July 2022 backlog drive is on!
(t &#183; c)  buidhe  20:26, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Re: Birth dates
Hi, can politics.co.uk be cited for their year of birth?--Mike Rohsopht (talk) 05:54, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with politics.co.uk, and there were previous discussions at Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_334 and Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_337 last year on that exact question, which were heated but inconclusive. It looks to me as if it would probably be fine for year of birth, which is much less sensitive than the exact date of birth. I certainly wouldn't revert if you added exact years sourced to it, much tidier than the this-or-that years we can deduce from stated ages. Pam  D  07:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, can this be cited?--Mike Rohsopht (talk) 14:06, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry not to get back to you. I don't know what that parliamentary site is, but it doesn't look like "published" info just because you've managed to find it. It doesn't look to me as if it would be a usable source for BLP data like DoB. Who needs to know, anyway? Year of birth indicates an age range, whether they're near pension age or fresh out of uni, and distinguishes them from someone else of same name born in 1789; exact day and month of birth is only useful for astrologers and ... not sure who else. Pam  D  07:25, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thanks, : as you can see from my user page, the articles I create tend to be inspired by all sorts of things (and I'm so glad that I've always kept that record). Someone in my weekly "Academic Archers" Zoom chat was enthusing about the Red Dress and it seemed wiki-worthy; someone else created the article on Emily Brooke a while ago and I stub-sorted it, created the talk page (thus adding it to my watchlist by default), then created a redirect from Beryl (company) so noticed when someone recently upgraded that redirect to an article, then found they both needed a bit of improvement ... and so it goes on. An endless jigsaw, and rather more constructive than the cardboard/wooden variety. Pam  D  11:24, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Vikings
Hi Pam,

The problem being fixed here is that the article is about a seafaring people, and the lead sentence as currently written makes it about the name. This is addressed in WP:UMD, with the closest example of misuse being either "is the name of" or "is a term for". This is also covered in WP:ISAWORDFOR.

If left as-is, then MOS:WAW would apply, and it should be styled:

Vikings is the modern name given to seafaring people...

But I think the more correct fix is to have the lead sentence address the primary topic (the seafaring people) and leave the etymology of the term to its own section -- or, a brief mention in the lead might say something as an aside, such as "(Vikings is a modern term, not used contemporaneously.)"

Regards, NapoliRoma (talk) 17:50, 15 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not an expert on the subject area - I was alerted to the change when someone commented that the lead sentence had changed while they were trying to solve yesterday's "Redactle" puzzle (Hmm, it might be wiser if the puzzle linked to a single frozen version of the article for its 24 hours, as otherwise we are shooting at a moving target). But looking at the article history and the acrimonious previous discussions on the talk page I get the impression that the lead sentence to which I reverted had consensus and that previous discussions had been so lengthy that the lead shouldn't be changed without talking it through on the talk page. So you were Bold, I Reverted, and there's scope for another round of Discussion if you have the stomach for it. I see what you're saying, but it doesn't feel like that sort of an issue. Yes, in general, the "X is the name of " leads need to be trimmed, but here we seem to be dealing with something more nuanced. Over to you. Pam  D  18:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Song titles
Pam, can you give me a Wikipedia reference for your statement in your edit to Are You Havin' Any Fun? that song titles are in quotes not italics. Now that you have brought it to my attention is see that is the standard but I cannot find a reference to it in WP:music. Thanks BuffaloBob (talk) 16:49, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Found it: Manual of Style/Music Thanks againBuffaloBob (talk) 16:56, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @BuffaloBob Ah, I've found it at WP:SONG - am on phone so didn't find it for original edit summary, hoped you wouldn't ask! But I see the quotes shouldn't be bold, will go back and fix. Always something new to learn about editing. Poems and short stories get the same styling.  Pam  D  17:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @BuffaloBob See MOS:TITLE for the full list of things which have titles and are italicised, in quotes, or not! Pam  D  17:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Sarah Ejiama
Thanks for the review and update. Noted! I added the misconduct area to the article - Sarah Ejiama because the investigation was on the whole Molecular Oncology team lab in 2019 which Richard Marais led and I thought it will look otherwise if its not mentioned. Appreciate the correction :) Oceanview1590 (talk) 15:38, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As the conclusion seemed to be that any misconduct was only by one person, who was not Ejiama, it seems completely irrelevant to an article on her. Pam  D  15:40, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * But as you are online, please answer the question I have asked on your user talk page. Thanks. Pam  D  15:41, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I already answered your question on talk page :) maybe this message was crossed. Thanks Oceanview1590 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Jeanne Socrates
Hi Pam,

Do you still see a need for that warning template on the top of the article? It seems fairly balanced and well sourced now, thanks in large to your efforts.

Thanks, Crum375 (talk) 22:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Fine by me. Pam  D  07:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about the spelling issue, I actually switched it myself a couple of times back and forth while working on that paragraph, and somehow ended up leaving it in the US style (Victoria is actually just a few miles across the bay from Seattle, where the reverse spelling would be used :) ). Anyway, thanks for catching and correcting it. Crum375 (talk) 22:36, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

"Ownership"
PamD, I place high value on keeping a collegial environment on talk pages-- especially in what could become a highly viewed and contentious BLP. The "mild" allegation of ownership does not further that; all you had to do was ask, and I reverted. I strive to keep the article up to snuff while it is being intensely viewed. You may find that my editing experience has much more to do what I have seen in thousands of FAs (albeit with an aging memory) than it does with ownership. It's a desire to not appear to be a hypocrite if "my own" articles (eg where I have a high edit count) contain things that would not be accepted in an FA. I'd much rather we found some solid grounds upon which to make this decision, but as Alexbrn says, "not a biggie". Please let's not make it one; we have bigger fish to fry there :). Best regards, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:06, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, was feeling a bit grumpy, I shouldn't have been so snarky. I've added PhD thesis titles to the "Education" section for quite a few academics over the years, though I tend to deal in solid little stub/start articles rather than FAs. Thanks for replacing it. I've found a more informative record for it, with an abstract, and used that instead of WorldCat. Pam  D  20:26, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I saw that, all good ... apology accepted, too, and I'm sorry for seeming own-ish. I'm willing to recognize I could be entirely wrong on this (need better feedback).  And I'm operating with COVID brainfog and sleep cycles completely out of whack because of the COVID fatigue. We can sort that piece later ... the big picture is, why oh why are the major US news outlets ignoring this story, and is it not as big as Science indicates?  This week should tell us more; it's kinda fascinating to watch it unfold. Too late for your mother, and irritating as all heck if all that research money was truly misspent ... Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:30, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red August 2022
--Lajmmoore (talk) 10:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 1 August 2022
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Books & Bytes – Issue 51
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 51, May – June 2022 
 * New library partners
 * SAGE Journals
 * Elsevier ScienceDirect
 * University of Chicago Press
 * Information Processing Society of Japan
 * Feedback requested on this newsletter
 * 1Lib1Ref May 2022

Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --16:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Taking a break
I've got into the habit of spending too much time on Wikipedia and plan to try to stop editing for the rest of August. I've contributed to all four of Women in Red's editathons for the month; the Wainwright Prize shortlists are online and the winner not announced till September; the Lakeland Book of the Year has been announced; there aren't any upcoming by-elections (I enjoy helping the Friday-morning-after-the-by-election scrabble to create a solidly sourced start article on a new MP); there are a couple of simmering discussions I ought to contribute to but they can wait. If anything gets onto my talk page I'll be alerted by an email. If something very interesting gets into the news (mostly BBC Radio4 Today) and isn't yet in Wikipedia I may not be able to resist the temptation to add it (as here, here and here). I have a house in need of a lot of work (but first, a lot of decision-making as to what to do), and a rampant garden, and piles of pending paperwork: I'm hoping that a month off Wiki might be productive. I'm going to log off, and move the "Watch list" and "Stub category" tabs in my browser's toolbar so that they aren't immediately visible. See you in September. Pam D  09:47, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter August 2022
Hello ,

After the last newsletter (No.28, June 2022), the backlog declined another 1,000 to 13,000 in the last week of June. Then the July backlog drive began, during which 9,900 articles were reviewed and the backlog fell by 4,500 to just under 8,500 (these numbers illustrate how many new articles regularly flow into the queue). Thanks go to the coordinators and, as well as all the nearly 100 participants. Congratulations to who led with 880 points. See this page for further details.
 * Backlog status

Unfortunately, most of the decline happened in the first half of the month, and the backlog has already risen to 9,600. Understandably, it seems many backlog drive participants are taking a break from reviewing and unfortunately, we are not even keeping up with the inflow let alone driving it lower. We need the other 600 reviewers to do more! Please try to do at least one a day.


 * Coordination: and  have taken on some of the coordination tasks. Please let them know if you are interested in helping out.  will be handling recognition, and will be retroactively awarding the annual barnstars that have not been issued for a few years.


 * Open letter to the WMF: The Page Curation software needs urgent attention. There are dozens of bug fixes and enhancements that are stalled (listed at Suggested improvements). We have written a letter to be sent to the WMF and we encourage as many patrollers as possible to sign it here. We are also in negotiation with the Board of Trustees to press for assistance. Better software will make the active reviewers we have more productive.


 * TIP - Reviewing by subject: Reviewers who prefer to patrol new pages by their most familiar subjects can do so from the regularly updated sorted topic list.


 * New reviewers: The NPP School is being underused. The learning curve for NPP is quite steep, but a detailed and easy-to-read tutorial exists, and the Curation Tool's many features are fully described and illustrated on the updated page here.


 * Reminders
 * Consider staying informed on project issues by putting the project discussion page on your watchlist.
 * If you have noticed a user with a good understanding of Wikipedia notability and deletion, suggest they help the effort by placing on their talk page.
 * If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be part of the New Page Reviewer user group, please consider asking any admin to remove you from the list. This will enable NPP to have a better overview of its performance and what improvements need to be made to the process and its software.
 * To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

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Rodeos?
Well that got me curious. The Balkans and Cherokees I can understand, but could you clue me in on how rodeos got contentious. No rush...I see you are on a break. Best, WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:33, 14 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @WomenArtistUpdates It was a little spat a couple of years back about categories - my talk page archive probably has it all! Pam  D  05:11, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Categories/Archive_7 Pam  D  06:53, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yikes! WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 15:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

NPP message
Hi ,

For those who may have missed it in our last newsletter, here's a quick reminder to see the letter we have drafted, and if you support it, do please go ahead and sign it. If you already signed, thanks. Also, if you haven't noticed, the backlog has been trending up lately; all reviews are greatly appreciated.
 * Invitation

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

"The Wave (Disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect The Wave (Disambiguation) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 24 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 16:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Editing news 2022 #2
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter



The new [] button notifies people when someone replies to their comments. It helps newcomers get answers to their questions. People reply sooner. You can read the report. The Editing team is turning this tool on for everyone. You will be able to turn it off in your preferences.

–Whatamidoing (WMF) (User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)) 00:35, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Charles Paget, 8th Marquess of Anglesey


The article Charles Paget, 8th Marquess of Anglesey has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "No claim to notability, and the sources do not support notability claims either: Who's Who is unreliable per WP:RSP, and the obituary of his father only gives the subject a passing mention."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Pilaz (talk) 01:58, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red in September 2022
--Lajmmoore (talk) 15:37, 31 August 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 31 August 2022
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Extending Wikibreak
Well, I didn't manage to stay away completely in August but kept bobbing back in for the odd edit ... will try and stay away mostly for a another few weeks, having today created a nice little stub who ticks both the boxes for this month's WP:Women in Red editathons (being a writer with initial "E"). See you later. Pam D  10:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks
for being an excellent and especially helpful editor. 2603:7000:2143:8500:196:2EF9:E6F2:A9FA (talk) 23:25, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Olena Netetska and the non-existent Ukrainian electoral districts in 2006 and 2007
Thanks for creating and expanding the Wikipedia article on Olena Netetska. And welcome to the world of Ukrainian electoral systems... . Unfortunately because you are not familiar with the Ukrainian election systems over the years you did insert an error in Netetska's article. You assumed (I assume) that because she was elected in 2012 for Ukraine's 3rd electoral district in the 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary election she was also a representative for this district in the 2006 Ukrainian parliamentary election and 2007 Ukrainian parliamentary election. But the 2006 and 2007 elections were held according to the party-list proportional election system—that is, in a single nationwide electoral district. It is very common for electoral systems to change in Ukraine, the next Ukrainian parliamentary election will be again without constituencies, you might want to check out the Wikipedia articles on Ukrainian elections before editing about a Ukrainian politician. —  Yulia Romero  • Talk to me!  13:14, 22 September 2022 (UTC)


 * @Yulia Romero Hallo Yulia: Thanks for spotting and correcting my mistake. Yes, I probably made that incorrect assumption. I think I was trying to create her article on the basis of the de.wiki article (and my limited German) together with cautious use of Google-translations from Ukrainian (I know the Cyrillic alphabet but not much more), and clearly wasn't careful enough here. Apologies.
 * I've reformatted your references to use citation templates, but mostly so that it was then easy to add the "date retrieved". This is always useful for any online source, because web pages sometimes change, or disappear  and it is useful to know which version from Internet Archive or similar is the one which was being cited. Thanks.  Pam  D  17:24, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

October 2022 New Pages Patrol backlog drive
(t &#183; c)  buidhe  21:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Parishes project
We are now at 375 which is 10 away from a critical number-365. Critical because of there being 365 days in 2023 so if you're suggestion is passed of me being allowed to create 1 parish article a day it could be completed in 2023. Perhaps give or take a few, such as maybe a few I missed or new ones later formed but on the other hand some may be created by others or not need articles.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:51, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red October 2022
--Lajmmoore (talk) 15:01, 29 September 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging


 * Hmm, so I need to find a West Asian female scientist with initial G or H, for a start! Pam  D  15:04, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 52
 The Wikipedia Library Books & Bytes

Issue 52, July – August 2022 
 * New instant-access collections:
 * SpringerLink and Springer Nature
 * Project MUSE
 * Taylor & Francis
 * ASHA
 * Loeb
 * Feedback requested on this newsletter

Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --12:21, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The Signpost: 30 September 2022
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Selside and Fawcett Forest
This article now exists, this means all parishes in Cumbria that are completely missing have been created (apart from the lands common one) though 5 are only redirects.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 20:05, 17 October 2022 (UTC)


 * @Crouch, Swale Ah, a new parish (I thought I'd finished the job in 2016!). The lists of listed buildings need to be merged to correspond - NHLE listing has the new parish name, though the numbers don't add up - see my note at Talk:Listed buildings in Whitwell and Selside. But good to have some completeness here, well done. Pam  D  20:38, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * @Crouch, Swale And please don't forget to add WikiProject Lancashire and Cumbria to the talk pages. (I've done this one). Thanks. Pam  D  20:43, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * For the record the other missing parishes in Cumbria are Carlatton, Drigg and Carleton, Lindal and Marton, (draft existed at Draft:Lindal and Marton, Cumbria), Old Hutton and Holmescales and Underbarrow and Bradleyfield.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:55, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red November 2022
--Lajmmoore (talk) 17:35, 26 October 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 31 October 2022
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Books & Bytes – Issue 53
<span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes

Issue 53, September – October 2022 <div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: 1.2em">
 * New collections:
 * Edward Elgar
 * E-Yearbook
 * Corriere della Serra
 * Wikilala
 * Collections moved to Library Bundle:
 * Ancestry
 * New feature: Outage notification
 * Spotlight: Collections indexed in EDS

Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --11:19, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red in December 2022
--Lajmmoore (talk) 20:56, 26 November 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 28 November 2022
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ArbCom 2022 Elections voter message
<div class="ivmbox " style="margin-bottom: 1em; border: 1px solid #AAA; background-color: ivory; padding: 0.5em; display: flex; align-items: center; "> Hello! Voting in the 2022 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2022 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:34, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Ghana–Armenia relations


A tag has been placed on Category:Ghana–Armenia relations indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Holidays
I wish you and your loved ones a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year. Best regards RV (talk) 12:06, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Season's Greetings
Best wishes for the festive season however you celebrate it, to all my talk page watchers. Have a happy and healthy 2023! And may you avoid the current upsurge in Covid: I've just got it for the first time, despite five jabs. Pam D  22:35, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Kittiwakes. Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_West_Coast_Path
I see you were a librarian at U of Leeds so maybe you've searched stuff about kittiwakes in the last 3 weeks? Cornwall is at the SW edge of the birds breeding. So the species is not RDB but it's in Cornwall's BAP. We've had colonies at Land's End, at St Agnes Head ...and at Porthmissen Bridge (near Trevone just out from the Camel Estuary).... and other places. As you've no doubt found out kittiwakes up sticks and move - it's not a big job! The other species in these sea-bird colonies are not so significant. So my deletion of the reference to that coast path book was considered. Calc-flinta (talk) 22:25, 23 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Here's the kittiwake breeding map from the Cornwall Bird Atlas. We did the surveys in the very first years of the millennium http://atlas.cbwps.org.uk/breeding/KI.php]... and you can see the birds had already moved, in typical kittiwake fashion (despite the national breeding seabird census in c.2000!). Calc-flinta (talk) 11:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't really care about kittiwakes or other seabirds, I was just rescuing what seemed to be information provided by another editor which was being swept aside because one part of it was past history. At the same time I rescued a series of your own edits updating guidebook info, which baby you seemed to have thrown out with the bathwater.


 * But how useful is the link to Fal River Links, given that that page has no references and just the one external link, which leads to a page saying "Falriverlinks.co.uk is no longer available here. Please visit Y instead."? Do you know a better source or link for that page? If not, then perhaps the page should be heading for AfD. Any thoughts?


 * Enjoy Christmas, or Yule, or some time off work, or whatever you're doing! Pam  D  15:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Pam (I presume!), thanks for checking that Fal River Links page. Fal River Links - the business was fine last summer: I used it. It seems someone has vandalised a page on their website ....and they have reacted by setting up a new website: <> I have to say their website was a very useful compendium for coastpath walkers of (most of) the services on the Fal (only the Falmouth-Flushing service has dropped off). Calc-flinta (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, Pam (I presume!), thanks for checking that Fal River Links. I do not know what has happened - it was a most useful resource for coast path walkers (particularly those who need to get to Place cheaply!). The website was fine in the summer when I last used it - so I hope Fal River Links is rescued. Someone maybe has hijacked their FB page. Calc-flinta (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * ...so I do not think that's an AfD. Calc-flinta (talk) 18:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * But if you want to delete a page can I suggest John Bainbridge's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bainbridge_(author)? He wrote his own page - as Stravaiger, which matches his email, in 2010, "Entry on famous walker and writer": quote: "Dear Alan, Family history is quite fascinating as I know from my own explorations. We’re committed to our existing series at the moment, but if you’d like to post something on my blog please do. You can email it to stravaigerjohn@gmail.com" on https://johnbainbridgewriter.wordpress.com/about/ You'll find most of his books were those Frith ones of captioned historic images. And the Teignmouth-Dawlish route he instigated is very short  - under 10 miles. The 100+ miles Two Moors Way was invented and put together by Joe Turner - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Moors_Way Calc-flinta (talk) 18:32, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * PS - thanks for Christmas greetings - the same to you. I have very mild (so far! hope that continues) dose of covid....but I've just done the garlic test. Calc-flinta (talk) 18:34, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Calc-flinta So have I: there's a lot around in my village. Husband too. Luckily managed to get a lastminute supermarket delivery slot for today, and the butcher delivered the turkey I'd ordered, and a friend bought today's  Guardian with Christmas crossword etc, so all is set for a quiet self-isolating Christmas. Pam  D  22:30, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Enjoy your goodies - and the Guardian - and banishing the virus. My Guardian is - almost! - unopened. Apologies for repeated scrambled comments earlier - I went to check another ref.... Calc-flinta (talk) 23:21, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red January 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) 18:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Jamaican statisticians


A tag has been placed on Category:Jamaican statisticians indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 01:08, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The Signpost: 1 January 2023
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2023 ARCA
I've submitted a new request at WP:ARCA, hopefully we can get closer to eliminating the missing parishes.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year, PamD!
<div style="border: 3px solid #FFD700; background-color: #FFFAF0; padding:0.2em 0.4em; height:auto; min-height:173px; border-radius:1em; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75);" class="plainlinks">

Happy New Year! PamD, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 00:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 00:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Vineeta Singh
You tagged a reference towards Forbes in the article, mentioning that it fails to provide evidence for the claim made. The claim made in the preceding sentence is that Singh appeared on Cover pages of business magazines. The citation you tagged was introduced to provide evidence for this. The Forbes website cited shows the cover page of the hard copy magazine with Singh beinng the top left lady.

You probably do not know her, so you are questioning if any of the ladys shown is actually Ms. Singh. Well, her name is mentioned on the photograph of the title page itself. The text block on the left bottom corner: Vineetha Singh is written as the second name from top. I admit that due to resolution, it is difficult to see in the Forbes link that I added to the article. However, you have a better resolution, e.g. here:. If you scroll down, you have a higher resolution photograph with the name clearly readable.

I hope this explains. Any suggestions from your side? T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea s y T C 16:34, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * @Tomeasy Ah, thanks, I was only looking at the text. I've annotated the reference to clarify, and removed the tags. You still need to source the other cover story appearances. And remember to credit the authors of articles, where they are listed, and to give the date of references in newspapers, magazines etc. Thanks. Pam  D  21:39, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the hints and improvements. I hope that linking to a twitter post is not violating policy. To proof existence of the cover page, unfortunately, I could not find another website. T<font color="#009ef2">om<font color="#6bd5f5">ea s y T C 22:45, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 January 2023
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WP Musicians
Happy New Year PamD! When you're adding WikiProject banners on article talk pages, please do not add both WP Bio and WP Musicians, as you did on Talk:Larry Steinbachek. WP Musicians is just a wrapper for WikiProject Biography with the yes populated, and adds the page to Category:Biography articles without living parameter and Category:Biography articles without listas parameter. I've combined the banners on this talk page to remove the maintenance categories. Thanks, and happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) GoingBatty (talk) 16:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


 * @GoingBatty Ah, thanks - I don't do much around music, remembered that trying to add WikiProject Music doesn't work, remembered that there was a Musicians option, but although I saw it coming up as a flavour of WP Bio I didn't think to remove the redundant one. Pam  D  16:58, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 54
<span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes

Issue 54, November – December 2022 <div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: 1.2em">
 * New collections:
 * British Newspaper Archive
 * Findmypast
 * University of Michigan Press
 * ACLS
 * Duke University Press
 * 1Lib1Ref 2023
 * Spotlight: EDS Refine Results

Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --14:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red in February 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) 07:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Simon & Schuster Mary Higgins Clark Award
Hi. You are aware that the Locus coverage is of the Edgar Awards, not this particular award? In other areas, we require multiple in-depth coverage to show that the award is notable. There was an AfD just recently regarding a newly created Emmy award, which resulted in a redirect to the main topic for just this reason. Do not get me wrong, I sit here in my library of some 3000+ SF/Fantasy/Mystery books (the other 2000 are reference and non-fiction), so I am familiar with the Edgar Award, but one might postulate that the Emmy's are slightly more well-known. Right now there are only simple mentions and primary sources. But you know I have the utmost respect for you, so will respect your decision.  Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 22:22, 29 December 2022 (UTC)


 * @Onel5969 Thanks for the compliment. I'd have thought that the fact that an independent publication covers all the Edgar Awards in that way is sufficient to give them each notability. It would be cumbersome to give full details of the shortlists for each of the awards on the main page. But I see there's inconsistency: for some of the prizes there's a separate page which only lists the winners, pointlessly duplicating what's in the main Edgars page (eg Raven_Award); for some, as here, the page includes the short list (eg Edgar_Allan_Poe_Award_for_Best_Critical/Biographical_Work) and for others there is no separate page, just a red link in the Edgars page. I don't see that this list does any harm. But then, as one of my favourite authors was shortlisted in 2016, I suppose I have a prejudice in favour of keeping the page. (And when I get rid of this Covid and can leave the house I've got her latest title on order at my local bookshop, a treat to look forward to.)
 * It sounds as if you know more about the practices of Awards articles, but to me it would be a pity to see this harmless and well-sourced tabulation of shortlists for an award from a respectable stable (and with a noteworthy set of criteria, well worth including in full) abandoned. If merged into the main "Edgars" article there might not be room for those criteria.
 * The criteria remind me that the clock in our local Methodist church was donated in memory of local novelist Willie Riley's "Wholesome contribution to literature". (Hmm, that's a thought: a photo of that plaque would be a nice addition to his article. When village choir rehearsals start up again I must wander from the hall into the church and get a photo.) Pam  D  17:12, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I do not disagree with your sentiments. There are lot of inconsistencies within the policies and guidelines.  I simply try to adhere to them as closely as possible, and rarely do I get involved in actually discussing/establishing them, I choose to leave that to others. I've reviewed almost 100,000 articles at this point over the last 5 years, and there are quite a few times when I do not like what the policies/guidelines tell me what to do.  Recently, there has been a move to tighten notability criteria, as seen in the discussions regarding NSOLDIER, NFOOTY, SCHOOLOUTCOMES, etc.  But I agree again that sometimes I look at an article and just simply know that the subject is notable, regardless of the sourcing (like those Emmy articles for example).  There's a line from Miracle on 34th Street, "Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to."  I like to bastardize that and say, "Notability is there regardless of what the guidelines tell us."  Sort of like WP:IAR.  However, I do not think that NPPer's should be allowed to not follow the rules/guidelines.
 * That's one of the reasons why I tag articles on my first pass through the queue, in order to nudge the editors to perhaps add enough sourcing to meet the guidelines/policies. And believe it or not, about half the time that is enough incentive.  The other 50% the article gets either prodded, AfD'd, or draftified.  But almost 80% of the articles I review pass on the first look.
 * I do think that photo would be a lovely addition. And again, thanks for all you do.  Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 19:47, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Onel5969 Well, I got to choir rehearsal with a few minutes to spare this morning so took a photo and have added it to Willie Riley. Not the best of photos but the wording is legible. And of course it's led me to tweaking Windyridge, rescuing an archived version of a source, and so on. Such are the timesinks of Wikipedia. I know I ought to do NPP, and went through a phase of reviewing a lot of redirects, but haven't done much even of that lately, and feel mildly guilty about it. But I carry on doing a lot of fairly random small improvements, adding redirects galore, and so forth. Thanks for all you do with the vital, and often unappreciated, NPP! Pam  D  14:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Brilliant. Love the addition.  Wish I did more of that.  When I lived in Arizona, I focused on articles regarding that state, and there were a couple of editors who contributed greatly to the Commons catalogue of photographs for historic Arizona structures and locations.  Very nice job.  And thanks for letting me know.  I love stuff like this.  Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 15:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 4 February 2023
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Gloria Cameron
As you are the expert on disamb and redirect pages for WiR, I have a problem. Gloria's legal name is Florence, i.e. newspaper articles about her appointments and the trial are found in that name, although Gloria is how she is typically reported. When I went to make a redirect for Florence Cameron, it goes to this page, which is unlike any redirect I've ever seen before, as it has specific categories to David Cameron. I don't want to screw anything up, but I think reserving the space for a 13 year old who may or may not be notable is an issue, when we have someone who is demonstrably notable and also has that as a legal name. I don't know if it is best to create a dismb page or how to proceed. Can you help? SusunW (talk) 15:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, thank you, thank you for fixing this AND finding that MBE notice. I just could not find it. Makes it so hard when the official notices are in a different name. I appreciate your help so much. SusunW (talk) 19:26, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hallo @SusunW, as you've already noticed I reckon a dab page instead of that redirect is the answer. Because there were categories on it, I've moved them to the new redirect at the child's full name, so she'll still appear in appropriate categories. I also checked to see what pages linked to Florence Cameron, and tweaked the link in 2010_in_the_United_Kingdom to use that new redirect at the longer name. A lot of redirects have the " {{Rcat shell| " etc stuff, with "Rcats" to show what sort of redirect it is (eg "from relative"), but when a redirect is for an entity which doesn't have its own article the redirect - or one of the redirects for the entity - can also have categories. So if I redirect a book to an author, I may also put it into a category like Category:2023 Australian novels, but if I make redirects both from the full title of the book and for a variation (like omitting "The"), I'll only put the one, most useful, redirect into those categories so it only appears there once. There doesn't seem to be a recognised concept of a "primary redirect" which gets the categories, but I know what makes sense to me, anyway!
 * I didn't reply here sooner because I was rummaging around trying to find the London Gazette entry for her MBE, but the issue for the 1980 birthday honours doesn't seem to have any ordinary MBEs, only diplomatic and overseas service ones; all a bit odd. The Jamaican Gleaner source looks fine, and is definitely dated Jan 1980. I've found it in The Times, but puzzled about The Gazette (and she doesn't appear in 1980 New Year Honours either). I find I've had a similar problem with another woman, so I've asked the experts at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Awards for advice!
 * I found an interesting snippet on a site called "bigredbook" page "a charitable life", which Wikipedia considers problematic and won't let me link to,  which says that when she was on "This is your life", she "was greeted via a live link by her son - a musician with the pop group, Hot Chocolate.". There's a Chris Cameron listed as a former member in Hot_Chocolate_(band), though he isn't listed under "line-ups" below - sources seem to say he was a backing vocalist. I've made a redirect for him to the band, as there are a couple of sources there which mention him.  Pam  D  19:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that and wrote to Terry Lee who runs the site because it says her mother appeared on the show. Surely they didn't introduce her mom without saying her name? But I've had no reply. I added Chris to the Hot Chocolate former members with a couple of refs. He's probably notable. Was a director for George Michael too per sources. But, I'm not an expert of music or musicians. I am truly grateful for your help, she was a really, really hard one to write. Difficult period, not a lot of digitization, especially for the Black press and then the whole legal verses known by name. I figured I had several sources confirming the MBE but was frustrated I couldn't find Gazette entry. It took forever to find secondary sources about the trial and I felt I couldn't publish it without those. Finally just put in Southwark Crown Court and scrolled through February 1989 until I found 2 articles about it. (The judge, Valerie Pearlman, is also likely notable, one of the first to use the internet in a trial.) SusunW (talk) 19:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 February 2023
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Editing news 2023 #1
Read this in another language • Subscription list for this newsletter

This newsletter includes two key updates about the Editing team's work:


 * 1) The Editing team will finish adding new features to the Talk pages project and deploy it.
 * 2) They are beginning a new project, Edit check.

Talk pages project

The Editing team is nearly finished with this first phase of the Talk pages project. Nearly all new features are available now in the Beta Feature for.

It will show information about how active a discussion is, such as the date of the most recent comment. There will soon be a new "" button. You will be able to turn them off at Special:Preferences. Please tell them what you think.



An A/B test for on the mobile site has finished. Editors were more successful with. The Editing team is enabling these features for all editors on the mobile site.

New Project: Edit Check

The Editing team is beginning a project to help new editors of Wikipedia. It will help people identify some problems before they click "". The first tool will encourage people to add references when they add new content. Please watch that page for more information. You can join a conference call on 3 March 2023 to learn more.

–Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:19, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

A Colorado thank you!
Thank you for your work on improving Anne Ellis to a stable and valuable state! Hopefully I can further expand the page, but your contributions are greatly appreciated. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:09, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red March 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) 12:55, 26 February 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Jessica Edgar
Just search haer name up and you will find it, it's not that hard RxxingAddict (talk) 17:28, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @RxxingAddict If you want the information to be in the article, you need to provide a source. If you are not capable of doing so, then please stop trying to edit the encyclopedia. Thanks. Pam  D  17:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 9 March 2023
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Requesting inputs
Requesting your visit to have look at the the changes to the article  and further t/p discussion since present title Women and bicycling in Islam was adopted and share your inputs @ Talk:Women and bicycling in Islam if possible. &#32;Bookku   (talk) 03:58, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 55
<span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes

Issue 55, January – February 2023 <div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: 1.2em">
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Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --12:45, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 March 2023
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Milner Field
Link added by PamD: Milner Field

Hi Pam. Struggling to understand the intricacies of Wikipedia due to work commitments. I created a page on Milner Field a few months ago, that seemed to have been rejected and I kind of lost the will to live. I notice it is now live, with your name against lots of the activity. No problem with that, but I would love to chat to you (if only I knew how) to ask for a couple of edits. The first being you seem to have linked THOMAS HARRIS in my article to an incorrect THOMAS HARRISON - who was a different person completely. Would be happy to edit myself, but don't want to break whatever work you have done to make my page live. Thanks Andy Mac

(apologies, I also don't see a 'New Section' you reference when instructing people to contact you) Thanks again. Andymac1965 (talk) 10:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * @Andymac1965 Hallo. The reasons your draft was rejected were that you didn't cite any sources and that you hadn't shown the house to be WP:NOTABLE in Wikipedia's terms.
 * As I said in my edit summary, I was about to create an article on the house (after reading Frances Brody's book) but found your draft and thought it was salvageable. I found and added a lot of references, as Wikipedia does not include unsourced information, and trimmed out some unsupported stuff. There still aren't enough inline references, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone landed on the article and excised large chunks of it as inadequately sourced.
 * The link from "Thomas Harris" to Thomas Harrison (architect) was one you made yourself - it's present in this version at which time no-one but you had edited it. Please take care not to tell other editors that they've made mistakes when they haven't. I've unlinked it now.
 * That "New section" ... it looks as if the software now has "Add", in at least some versions, so I've tweaked that, thanks, and sorry it was confusing.
 * I'll see if I can track down anything about the right Thomas Harris. Meanwhile if there is stuff to add to the article, with reliable independent published sources, then of course please do so. It isn't "my" article or "your" article, but an encyclopedia article based on a draft you created, polished up a bit by me, and open to anyone to improve.
 * Another little point: when you post anything on a user talk page, it's a courtesy to all other editors to link to the page in question, so that not only the page owner but any passing "talk page watchers" can get there immediately without having to type or copy-and-paste the link. Thanks. Happy Editing! Pam  D  12:38, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Found him: Thomas Harris (architect)! Easier than I expected. Pam  D  12:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * And in the classic time-sink of Wikipedia editing, I've expanded the article about Harris. Pam  D  15:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your explanations. I quickly found out it wasn't just a case of rocking up and typing my knowledge, but as stated, work committments meant I didn't have time to follow up. You must admit, it's a minefield to a newby!!
 * You seem very knowledgebable so I would be happy to collaborate with you to make the page into the type of page I wanted it to be. Frances Brody is in our FB group and her books are great.
 * Thanks again for the Thomas edit ...... I swear blind I removed the link to HARRISON even though it kept reverting.
 * Please keep in touch. Andymac1965 (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Andymac1965 The main thing to remember (well, one main thing) is that as you say you can't just rock up and type what you know. You have to support it with WP:RS - "Reliable independent published sources". This can be very frustrating for people who have deep personal knowledge of a topic, but that's the way it goes. You can see that I found a few newspaper articles to add, etc. How did you learn the stuff about the history? For example, if it was from the Lee-Van den Daele & Beale book, then add references to that book, preferably to specific pages or at least chapters, for each chunk of text supported. There are various formats editors can use for references, such as "Harvard" refs etc, but the important thing is to show that everything you typed is verifiable in published sources: the exact formatting can be tidied up if need be.
 * I'm not sure what you mean by "the type of page I wanted it to be". It has to be accurate, appropriately referenced, from a neutral point of view, well written, and a few other requirements, without giving undue weight to minor issues. The page is here to inform the reader, not to WP:PROMOTE any cause or campaign.
 * There's generally no need to email an editor, unless (a) they haven't replied to a user talk page post within a reasonable time (a day or two perhaps - people have different priorities and your question may not be high on their list) but have obviously been editing since you posted (you can look at someone's contributions to see their activity) or (b) there's something sensitive about the issue which isn't appropriate to put on the public user talk page, or, I suppose (c) it really is something very urgent you want to draw their attention to or need help with (but there are probably usually better channels).
 * All the best, Pam  D  20:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Netherfield
Thanks for sorting that out. I'll add some bits later from my books. A very strange situation with that dab page! I went there about 12 years ago when it still had a vaguely regular bus service; while not exactly a metropolis, there's enough of interest there to pass an hour or two. Sadly the former Congregational chapel was demolished in the late 20th century. <b style="color: #00BFFF;">Hassocks</b> 5489 (Floreat Hova!) 12:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

A brownie for you!

 * Thanks - that looks delicious and calorie-free! Pam  D  21:12, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red April 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:53, 27 March 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Speedy deletion nomination of Henry XII (disambiguation)


A tag has been placed on Henry XII (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
 * disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
 * is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Henry XIII (disambiguation)


A tag has been placed on Henry XIII (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
 * disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
 * is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Henry XIV (disambiguation)


A tag has been placed on Henry XIV (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
 * disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
 * is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:14, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Henry XV (disambiguation)


A tag has been placed on Henry XV (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
 * disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
 * is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:15, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 03 April 2023
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"Alston, Westmorland and Furness" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alston,_Westmorland_and_Furness&redirect=no Alston, Westmorland and Furness] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Devoke water  08:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

"Windermere (town), Westmorland and Furness" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windermere_(town),_Westmorland_and_Furness&redirect=no Windermere (town), Westmorland and Furness] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Devoke water  09:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Gratitude
I have just seen the immense amount of work that was evidently necessary (blush) and that you have done on the Secret Lives of Baba Segi's Wives (novel) page. Thank you very much indeed! Balance person (talk) 16:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @Balance person Thank you. There is a lot to learn about editing Wikipedia, but it's an interesting journey. There are little things not intuitive for newish editors, like not leaving a space before a reference. One thing I haven't fixed is date formats: for anywhere except "access-date" (or in a tabular layout where space is at a premium) we don't use the all-numeric 2023-04-05 date format. It's optional in access-date (I dislike it, personally!), but for the "date=" in a reference you should use "5 April 2023" or "April 5, 2023".See MOS:DATE. The latter if it is strongly connected to the USA or another country which uses that "mdy" format. See MOS:DATETIES. I'll leave it to you to fix those.
 * If an author is something corporate like "African Writer Magazine", don't try to force it into the straitjacket of "First, last". "Author" will work: I've tweaked that one.
 * That Goodreads link for the Arabic title doesn't seem to work for me: I can't see the Arabic .... ah, I can now, by following links from the page you linked. I'll modify that reference so that it links to the page which lists the editions. Done. It might be better to link to Worldcat (=authoritative) rather than GoodReads (=less authoritative), but I couldn't actually find the Arabic version there (Hebrew, yes, but not Arabic!). You could, if you feel energetic, include a "Publication history" section listing some or all of the various different language editions with publisher, date, ISBN, translater if available. An ISBN counts as a reference to verify the existence of an edition of a book, so no further sourcing is needed (click on the ISBN and it takes you to a pageful of links to find the book, with "Worldcat" one of the most useful).
 * Happy Editing! Pam  D  17:54, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Balance person I'm having doubts as to which cover is that of the first edition published so deserves to be in the article (only one allowed). I wonder whether the one here is the one to include? Any thoughts? If you prefer it, and feel brave, have a go at "Upload a file" if you haven't tried it before. It's fairly straightforward, but you need to say "none" explicitly when it asks whether there are any special conditions, near the end. Pam  D  18:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh I like the one that you already put on. It is the cover on the version I have here at home for reference. I think it captures something of the character of the fourth wife somehow! But thanks for all the tips. I am copying them off for future reference! Balance person (talk) 20:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, PamD. Thank you for your work on St Chad's Church, Rochdale. User:Onel5969, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

 Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 09:52, 7 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @Onel5969 Have a look at the history, and at my post on the talk page of the editor who over-wrote the redirect I created! Pam  D  15:53, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Onel5969 The previous ping, from my phone, didn't work. Pam  D  16:32, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Onel5969 But you need to look at the page history of their talk page, as they first replied to me, dismissively, and then deleted my post. See my post, and his reply. This is an enthusiastic but careless editor who sometimes damages the encyclopedia. Pam  D  16:52, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow. Well, first, when doing page patrol I use the curation tool, which brings up a small box with the most recent edits, as well as telling me who created the article.  I do not really look at the page history unless there's a problem (e.g. suspected COI/UPE, or I'm going to PROD/AfD the article).  Which wasn't an issue in this case.  Many times I do not even notice the name of the page creator.   But because I'm familiar with your name, as I went to leave a message, it caught my eye.  Prompting me to leave the above message. Not sure why that editor feels so put upon. Not sure I'm going to engage on that talk page.  Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 10:05, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Logo of Hanoi International School, 2014.png
Thanks for uploading File:Logo of Hanoi International School, 2014.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:15, 9 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @B-bot The bot wasn't to know that an IP had broken the Infobox so that the image was unlinked. Now fixed. Pam  D  20:33, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Places in Cumbria
Hi there

Good job. I am simply updating paces in Cumbria in light of the new local government arrangeents in the area. I admit that my knowledge of Cumbria in general in pretty scant, so anything you feel needs adding is greatly appreciated! Bleaney (talk) 14:47, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The problem is that the old districts were distinctly useful in identifying approx location, so the articles are weaker without them. I suppose that I could try to follow you around adding locations, but if you could cast a quick eye at a map and add something it would help. Some already have it, perhaps not in the lead. I ought to be doing other RL stuff right now but I might give way and spend some time patching these up instead, now or soon! Pam  D  14:53, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of John Yarbrough for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article John Yarbrough is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/John Yarbrough until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 00:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

New Page Patrol – May 2023 Backlog Drive
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:12, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 26 April 2023
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Women in Red May 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) 18:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Oops, I never knew that
Sorry on Laslo Djere|Laslo Đere redirect. As I looked at MOS, per MOS example shouldn't the item under Dere actually be written as "Laslo Đere or Laslo Djere (born 1995), Serbian tennis player"? The Jim Carry footnote seems to fit this example perfectly. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:21, 28 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @Fyunck(click) Yes, that looks good: it comes under that second version of the James Carrey example. Complicated! Pam  D  05:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Fyunck(click) That seems a really poor example as the Carey/Carrey difference is irrelevant to the point being made. I might comment there when not on phone! Pam  D  05:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for setting me straight in reverting me. It made me look up the details in MOS. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:03, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Help with periodical submissions
Hi,

I am working on a project to publish pages for several independent magazines and am having difficulties with getting them published. I've done a bunch of research on periodical pages and it appears that there have been previous conversations around the difficulty for sources for publications/periodicals due to the nature of publishers being sources themselves and not writing about the competition. I believe the two drafts I have completed meet the guidelines in Notability (periodicals) but I was hoping you might be able to take a look and give me your feedback. I noticed you're a librarian and I think these are important pages to be included on Wikipedia, so I am hoping there are some changes I can make to the pages to get them published.

Thanks for your time.

Stcksht (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm a long-retired academic librarian and know nothing about children's magazines, but the claims to notability for Honest History seem somewhat flaky: as far as I can see, rather than "won the national parenting product of the year award" it was awarded a paid-for seal-of-approval type award, one of many given each year, by a body on which Wikipedia has no article. Unimpressive. I think I've seen your message elsewhere, on someone else's talk page, which makes it look as if you are trying hard to get your articles accepted. I wonder what connection you have with the publishers, and what your "project" is? I hope you have read Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest and paid editing rules. I've tweaked your draft a little for clarity, but beyond that this is not my area of interest, sorry. Pam  D  22:46, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Percy Kelly (artist)
BorgQueen (talk) 12:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 8 May 2023
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DYK for Wanda Szuman
BorgQueen (talk) 00:03, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 22 May 2023
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BrE style
Hello Pam! I wonder if you have (access to) a British style guide? I only have the Chicago, which is US obviously, though actually very good at pointing out obvious BrE differences. I was watching an episode of Only Connect the other day, in which one of the clues was "Sinking of the Titanic", the natural way to say it to my knowledge. But on the WP page, allegedly "in BrE", this is written without the article "... of Titanic". To me this sounds simply wrong, or more precisely American. There was some discussion about it, but crucially in discussion of style editors are not required to have native competence of the language (version) in question. I imagine that to Americans "of the Titanic" sounds at least a bit unnatural. (They do tend generally to drop articles: "May fourth", "play piano" etc.) Anyway, ideally a UK style guide might give guidance on this (or might not, of course, since it's simply perfectly ordinary English). Current the MOS says something like "the [Titanic]" is "not technically wrong", which probably means "not US style". And I think that generally the description of British English that the template generates is totally US-centric, sounding like "Hey, you know the Brits use some odd terms, but well..." Actually BrE and AmE have different teminology (obviously), and different syntax (the AmE "if you would have" for "if you had"), morphology ("dove" and "dived"), different article use and so on and so on. And if you want a simply horrendous set of articles, there's "Grade n" for n from 1 to (not "through", which is "technically wrong") 9 at least. Mustn't ramble. Brian Imaginatorium (talk) 06:19, 22 May 2023 (UTC)


 * @Imaginatorium My "go-to" style guide is that of The Guardian newspaper, for educated but contemporary written English. It doesn't opine on whether ships take "The", though it notes that trains do and locomotives don't! See   https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-t
 * I think "the Titanic" is common UK usage - see
 * https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/17/digital-scan-of-titanic-wreck-secrets-stories-to-tell, https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/sessions/sinking/   and  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65398807  but then also https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/topics/z8mpfg8/articles/zng8jty ..  the BBC is inconsistent. In ordinary speech I think subject experts (geeks / bores) might say "sinking of Titanic" while most people would add "the".  Pam  D  08:23, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Imaginatorium And I've just reminded myself what an interesting read that style guide is: I hadn't thought about the two suffixes -y and -ie before, plus all sorts of interesting snippets of info, confusions to avoid, etc. (Sitting in the sun in a Teignmouth  hotel garden overlooking the sea as I type ... relaxed mood.  Pam  D  08:41, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @Imaginatorium And I've just reminded myself what an interesting read that style guide is: I hadn't thought about the two suffixes -y and -ie before, plus all sorts of interesting snippets of info, confusions to avoid, etc. (Sitting in the sun in a Teignmouth  hotel garden overlooking the sea as I type ... relaxed mood.  Pam  D  08:41, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of List of wars named for their duration for deletion
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Books & Bytes – Issue 56
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"Tomodachi Life(Nintendo 3DS)" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tomodachi_Life(Nintendo_3DS)&redirect=no Tomodachi Life(Nintendo 3DS)] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 05:59, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red - June 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) 09:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Admin notice about you
Hi I'm just letting you know that at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#@PamD:_and_I'm_feeling_intentionally_stalked

I've opened a case about your recent comments and the way your constantly stalking me and finding faults I saw also your comment on South Parade and Witney on Wye on my talk page admitting you were looking to see what I was up to and sarcasm with the whole "hope your editing carefully", as if I'm gonna break the wiki.

I don't appreciate any of your comments and as a result. I've opened a case with the incident notices. If you wish to discuss further. Do so please on the link in this post.

Not on my talk page and I won't be replying on yours. I'm tired of being made to feel like a naughty editor all the time by yourself who is the only one to find faults then positives with me.

DragonofBatley (talk) 00:16, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Category:7th-millennium BC people has been nominated for merging
Category:7th-millennium BC people has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Ambrose Madden (disambiguation)


A tag has been placed on Ambrose Madden (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either
 * disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
 * disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
 * is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 14:48, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 5 June 2023
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Disambiguation link notification for June 5
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Regarding AN/I
moving to usertalk as this has become entirely aside the point at AN/I


 * @PamD I suppose all I can say is that everyone uses language differently, and its unceasingly difficult to perfectly identify tone and intent in written word. Everyone makes little white lies, it's a fact of life, and it doesn't mean someone isn't trustworthy or that someone is inherently dishonest or deceptive. Only you know the last time you clicked on DoB's contributions and proving otherwise would be a frustrating and inexact undertaking. So I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and take their word (without reason not to) and in return I implore people to intentionally be honest, and avoid giving a white lie that might otherwise be an instinctive or knee-jerk reaction. I am sorry to have caused such offense, it was not my intention. I will reconsider my use of the phrasing going forward and I appreciate you voicing your objections. GabberFlasted (talk) 11:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Dragging on
I thought I was unfair on my page, I was irritated by his characterisation of me. I have ignored him but I looked in on your page earlier. I checked one of his creations and conclude I don't think anybody actually reads what he's written and it will continue to go unchecked. If that's what editors want so be it, I am walking away. I really do hope you're ok. Esemgee (talk) 22:59, 13 June 2023 (UTC)


 * @Esemgee Thanks. I had a busy day yesterday (volunteering, taking husband for hospital appt, choir rehearsal ... standard retired life stuff) and when I went on-wiki got distracted into following up a new editor who apparently hasn't got good enough English to be editing here. But today I must get a reply made. I've drafted at length (see my sandbox) but should probably keep it minimal to move on. I worry about the number of poor edits which no-one notices: you'd think a major novelist like Elizabeth Gaskell might be on some watch lists, but a multi-element good-faith bad edit went un-noticed for two years till I found it. (Too hard to give a diff while editing on phone). Pam  D  03:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 19 June 2023
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The game...
....is up - Sockpuppet investigations/Exnihilox. Feel free to add your own observations about the editors if you have any. 10mmsocket (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)


 * So, now, the big question. How far back to we wind back the page? Certainly the "Demography" section is a candidate! 10mmsocket (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @10mmsocket Wow, what a day you've all been having while I've been busy doing real life stuff. well done on the SPI. Life should be a little quieter from here on in. I've tweaked a few little things I noticed just now but I don't feel interested enough in Rochdale to want to put a lot of work into it. The editor we mustn't abbreviate might care to come back to it now that his sparring partner has departed. What a waste of energy it's all been. The comments were getting more and more deranged, total lack of understanding of how talk pages worked, replies bearing no relation to the points to which they seemed to be replying.
 * The Demography section (now we can safely call it that again without contradiction) mostly uses this as a ref, though it's really only an index page: the actual data is here, linked from the above as "Area profiles". I wonder when NOMIS is going to make data available in that format for parishes, BUAs etc for 2021? We have umpteen civil parishes which are crying out for a population update!
 * Enough for one day - packed with choir rehearsal and concert, collecting post-operative husband from hospital, trying to fit in part of local Arts festival, a regular weekly zoom call about The Archers, and the rest of non-wiki life. Pam  D  23:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That bloody Rob Titchener and his brother! 10mmsocket (talk) 05:20, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @10mmsocket Discussed thoroughly (eg Miles is childless older brother: who gets to inherit their family farm?) Pam  D  05:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red July 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) 07:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Silverdale Hoard photos
Hi Pam. I've just spotted your note on the talk page of the above article. The note says that a year or so ago, you wanted more pictures of the hoard. However, the article and its commonscat now appear to have quite a few pictures.

The exhibition of the hoard appears to be continuing at Jorvik until the coming autumn, so I could go there and photograph it if you still feel that it's necessary. I'm guessing that what you want is closeups so that we can see its detail and work out how it was made, and that's the sort of photography that I like to do (like this one: File:Roman Museum 103.jpg). i'm willing to have a go, if you still feel that it's important. Storye book (talk) 17:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * @Storye book Thanks. Looking at them again I don't think my photos are as inadequate as I thought before. So please don't go to Jorvik specially to take more photos in response to my request - but I'd recommend a trip just to gaze at the wonderful Viking bling if you're at all interested in that sort of thing, it really looks fantastic now they've cleaned it up!  Pam  D  21:01, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Pam. I agree, so I have removed the reqphoto template. Looking at all the photos in that category, I reckon I can see how the armrings were made, anyway. The plaited/twisted ones are wires drawn through holes in a plate, then stretched and twisted simultaneously together, between frequent annealings. That's how we would do it today, except that their blocks with holes in were probably rusty old iron, whereas ours are a tougher metal. The other armrings are maybe more interesting. The pattern is cold-stamped in repetitive fashion with a die, while the sheet of metal is still flat (it's too thick for repousse, and there are no indentations on the back, anyway). Then they've annealed it again and formed the whole thing on a block, which may have been wooden. Or they could have formed first, and then stamped - more fiddly, but I suppose possible if you are determined to keep your stamping perfect. I don't believe there's any engraving there. There's a lot of cut-up stuff, which makes me think the collection represented bullion for the owner, rather than stuff to wear. According to the Icelandic Sagas, the armrings were just a way for the warriors to carry their money. Well, the above is my opinion, anyway. Cheers. Storye book (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red talk page banners
I'm really sorry, PamD, that you feel so upset about the discussions in connection with the editathon banners on the WIR talk page and on the the WiR template's entry. In particular, I hope my suggestions about more limited use of the existing banners is not the reason why you are considering leaving the project. As you have no doubt seen, I have been trying to oppose any changes in the hope we can continue using individual editathon banners as before. In my opinion, they have represented a strong attraction for so many of our contributors. Although I am no expert on technical issues, it seems to me the proposal from MSGJ is very sensible and could be a solution to keep everyone happy. To the best of my knowledge, we have not made wide use of the recognition feature which Headbomb is so keen to maintain. I am nevertheless reluctant to comment on his views as he has done so much to structure the entire system of our WiR talk page templates. On the basis of the most recent discussions, it seems as if we may be able to develop something similar to what MSGJ has suggested. I just thought I ought to drop a line here as I have followed with interest all the useful contributions you have made to WiR over the years and hope very much they will continue. Within the next few days we should be able to see whether the merge proposal has been accepted or rejected. And while I am here, perhaps you would be interested to see that, one of our most recent members, comes from your part of the country. As she seems to share some of your interests, you might be able to help her along.--Ipigott (talk) 14:33, 26 June 2023 (UTC)


 * @Ipigott Thanks for the note - I just got a bit exasperated by the whole thing, along with an element of guilt that my enthusiasm for finding intersections in editathons contributes to that 700 figure. The discussion at TfD seems full of people not listening to each other. I hope something can be sorted out - but no-one has answered my question, the paragraph above my "take my bat home"! If it doesn't matter for an article to have a banner for their 2nd or 3rd editathon, does it matter for them to have the first? Or do we only need a "WIR" banner?
 * And I'm also a bit stressed out with other stuff I ought to be getting on with (paperwork, decluttering, etc) ahead of hoping to move house. Plus there have been a few quite stressful Wiki episodes lately - I got dragged to ANI, and then stood on the sidelines while Rochdale went crazy (it's calmed down now: an editor got blocked indefinitely). Got to go - volunteering on the "Walks for all" today (supporting a stroll round local nature reserve, plus sociable coffee afterwards, for people with dementia and their carers): Real Life.  Pam  D  08:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I think all of us have experienced difficult times on Wikipedia but fortunately there are so many positively minded people on WiR that most of us quickly recover. Enjoy your walk, cheer up and find some interesting woman/women to write about. I'm pretty sure the banners will survive.--Ipigott (talk) 08:22, 27 June 2023 (UTC)


 * As you mentioned it, I've been looking at Rochdale. I feel rather sorry for who, as a new contributor, was probably not aware of the dangers of copyright violation. As for the current version of the article, there are still many serious copyvios as can be seen from here. It looks to me as if someone now needs to re-express these items one by one or simply remove them. If you are not interested in handling this yourself, you might like to post something on the talk page.--Ipigott (talk) 09:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ipigott I wonder in which direction the copyvio goes! I might have a look at dates and Wayback Machine etc, but I suspect the "40 facts" may have been nicked from Wikipedia rather than the other way round. The new editor was very keen to throw their weight around, determined on their own choice of headings etc, aggressive in their talk page posts and edit summaries, and is probably no loss to the encyclopedia. They rubbed up against another problematic editor, and sparks flew. Pam  D  11:29, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That might well be the explanation. Then we shouldn't be too worried about the present state of the article. I'm no expert on copyvios and have seldom contributed constructively to articles about the towns or cities in England although I am familiar with the Manchester area where my grandfather lived and I attended school in Lancashire. Unfortunately I no longer have many contacts in the UK as my closest friends and family have passed on.--Ipigott (talk) 15:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I am dropping by here to encourage you to take a wikibreak and deal with the other stuff. We will all still be here, being as lunatic a group as ever! I usually stop logging on for a couple of days when Wiki is more trouble than it is worth. Best. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC) PS - I have absolutely no idea what is going on with the templates, so am staying out of the fray. As someone (you?) noted in the comments, the issue is being called a big deal and not a big deal, so which is it???


 * @WomenArtistUpdates Thanks for the kind thoughts. I do spend too much time on-wiki, and there seem to have been a few silly spats recently ... ANI, Rochdale, templates. But it's more fun than decluttering or gardening! Pam  D  21:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Indeed...Wikipedia is far more tempting than decluttering. My plan going forward it to avoid accumulating anything. Easier to succeed at that. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

British English
Hello Pam. Gosh, you have a lot more perseverance than I do. I tend to get stuck in the mire of articles on bogus "uniquely Japanese" terms, like ikigai - actually I suppose Wikipedia is your ikigai...

Anyway, something that irritates me is that the article on The Titanic, despite the 'BrE' header, is written in US style, because the MOS says "ships do not get articles". Actually it says something funny like "the [BrE] usage with an article is not *techically wrong*", which often covers US ignorance, frankly. I thought perhaps the thing to do first is to change the style guide; I wonder about needing a reference. I have the Chicago Manual of Style, which is very good, and generally quite good a pointing out British usages, but can't find anything about ships. Have you got the Oxford or similar? Can you find anything to support it? Of course it has been in the news lately, and I keep reading the normal "The Titanic" version everywhere, but I'm not sure if that is enough for Wikilawyers. (I'll ping the other P ) Mustn't ramble... Brian Imaginatorium (talk) 08:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I found a copy of a 42-year-old book titled The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors (ISBN 0-19-212970-8), which says . Elsewhere, the same book says (note not "the Netherlands"), from which I hazily infer that  within the former means that the person submitting a MS to OUP should normally use "the". "Guardian and Observer style guide: Q" (note not "The Guardian and The Observer style guide"), a far newer concoction, says . Personally I'm happy with either "the Titanic" or plain "Titanic", and with or without italics. For MoS simply to declare "ships do not get articles" (or indeed for it simply to declare "ships do get articles") seems sensible to me. (By contrast, if I were the despot of en:Wikipedia, I'd standardize to SI; thus the article Empire State Building would read, and so forth.) -- Hoary (talk) 09:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict; I don't disagree with the above, by the way)) If you want an argument in favour of Brits using "the" with ship names, I would suggest the need for clarity about the difference between informality and formality. For example SS Great Britain is called informally The Great Britain here, to differentiate from the country; and The Mary Rose to differentiate from the possibility that we are talking about some woman or other. However at sea we don't use an article, to prevent confusion about the exact ship name. My dive rescue boat was called Fly, after my gt gt grandfather's early 19th-century gaff cutter, and in his day "fly" could mean "go very fast". So to call my boat The Fly on radio channel 16 would confuse the coastguard, who may well have come across boats with The Fly written on the bow. On the other hand, there is the argument that the article has been used with boat names, at least informally, for a long time. When researching my gt gt grandfather's fleet, I found a reference to his codboat Upton (Upton was the surname of his grandfather's boyfriend, via whom gt gt grandfather inherited the money to buy the fleet, but that's another story). Anyway, among the shipping ledgers, I found a diary note saying "The Upton was lost". No doubt there are plenty of non-primary sources around, which contain similar evidence of long-term informal usage of the article with ship names. Just one more thing: I am not sure about this, but I seem to remember that in 19th-century literature about marine subjects, when ships spoke each other at sea, they would say e.g., "I am Aphrodite from Valetta en route to Venice", i.e. no article, because they used standard phrases for speaking each other. Good luck! Storye book (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

New pages patrol needs your help!
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The Signpost: 3 July 2023
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ANI Notice
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding lack of civility in WP:CFD. Thank you. RevelationDirect (talk) 04:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Milestones
I realised yesterday that I'd hit the qualifications to be a Vanguard Editor a while ago, so I updated my userbox accordingly.

Then today I noticed that my "total articles created in previous years" (excluding dab pages, surname pages, and redirects) at the start of 2023 was 967, and I've created a fair few articles this year. At a quick count, I reckon that Hilary Pole was my 1000th article creation: an amazing woman who didn't allow almost total paralysis to hold her back and who campaigned to raise funds for other people to get the life-changing POSSUM she used. (I see that's only a redirect to an article which mentions it in a caption: I think I need to work on at least a section, if not an article, on the POSSUM in Hilary's honour.) Pam  D  13:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I see that Xtools reckons I've created 23,671 pages (with 2,289 since deleted), but a lot of those will be redirects, or talk pages created while stub-sorting or passing by, just to add a project banner or two, as well as many dab pages and surname pages! Pam  D  13:38, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Wow Pam that's an amazing total, congratulations. Wikipedia is fortunate to have such a prolific editor. Esemgee (talk) 12:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Esemgee Thanks. Many of my creations are just solid little stubs, but with links to good sources to help the reader find out more, or help another editor expand the article - and with all appropriate incoming redirects from variations of the title, and a surname list entry (or redirect if unique) for any biography. Pam  D  13:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 17 July 2023
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WP:BURDEN
Hello. WP:BURDEN states that "Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source." Simply restoring and tagging the material because you are of the personal view that the uncited OR is "reasonable" is not actually the way we address such material upon its removal. Thanks, and cheers. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:ACA0:80D5:F00F:2AA1 (talk) 06:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Fair enough: I thought this was very likely to be sourceable from the Russian sources so WP:IARed. But in future please tag such material rather than removing it from the encyclopedia, as being more likely to improve it. (For any TPWs, this relates to Permyak Salty Ears which is on my watchlist after I stub-sorted it ten years ago.) Pam  D  07:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red 8th Anniversary
--Lajmmoore (talk) 11:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Books & Bytes – Issue 57
<span style="font-size: 2em; font-family: Copperplate, 'Copperplate Gothic Light', serif">The Wikipedia Library: Books & Bytes

Issue 57, May – June 2023 <div style = "margin-top: 1.5em; border: 3px solid #ae8c55; border-radius: .5em; padding: 1em 1.5em; font-size: 1.2em">
 * Suggestion improvements
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Read the full newsletter Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --11:22, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Just to avoid accidental misappropriation
I'm quite honoured to be :) (if I understood your comment correctly), but to avoid any concerns about cultural appropriation (which I think really should be called "cultural misappropriation" to distinguish it from the normal mingling of cultures), my only link with Sudan is through editing Wikipedia pages. In editing Ethiopia-related pages, I've also been awarded Tigrayan honorary identity, although in that case the intent was to assert my supposedly pro-Tigrayan bias. You could write "Sudanese-page editor" or "Sudanese-topic editor" or something like that if you want to bypass the identity question in a situation like this another time. :) Boud (talk) 14:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Boud Ah, I made an incorrect assumption there! Duly corrected. Thanks. Pam  D  16:36, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Bryher iron age female warrior
Hi PamD! As you and I had good conversations about how to categorise Barum Woman and similar ancient/prehistoric women, I thought you might find this interesting news which you might want to write an article about: Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Nederlandse Leeuw Thanks for the reminder:I heard a news item about her this morning, and wondered whether she was already in en.wiki! Will follow it up. Pam  D  12:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hah, that's great! I couldn't find an article on her, but that could be because I don't know what to look for. After all, it's only since today that we know it's a woman, so there won't yet be a WP:COMMONNAME for her like "Bryher Woman" (which I would think is a nice one, compared to Barum Woman, Minnesota Woman etc.). Historic England states that The research findings are published today in 'The Journal of Archaeological Science Reports' and show the individual was female. Looks like this is it:
 * S. Mays, G. Parker, C. Johns, S. Stark, A.J. Young, D. Reich, J. Buikstra, K. Sawyer, K. Hale ISSN 2352-409X.
 * To my pleasant surprise, the phrase Bryher woman (lowercase "w") does show up 4 times in the paper itself, so I guess it would be a good article title. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:04, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: 'G. Parker' and 'S. Stark' are apparently cited as Dr Glendon Parker and Dr Sarah Stark by The Guardian and Historic England, which is really cool. I'm reading the whole paper now. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 13:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well I've created a solid little start-level article at Bryher Woman with good sources. Will now digress and create Isles of Scilly Museum. Was supposed to be spending the afternoon getting stuck in to decluttering and packing as we've just exchanged contracts on a house move! Pam  D  16:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks so much! I knew you'd probably like to write it, so I thought I'd tell you about it and give you the honour of creating it. And congrats and good luck on the move! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 16:29, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red August 2023
--Lajmmoore (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

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AUDREY FILDES
For talk page watchers: See Audrey Fildes and Articles for deletion/Audrey Fildes  Pam  D  14:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello PamD, I am Paul, Audrey's son. I saw your "keep" recommendation and thought to send you a note. The lack of a Globe and Mail Obit noted by AB is down to me. I never submitted one and I would have been the one to do so. My mother died suddenly and it was a shock. I'm not sure if additional information is useful, but here are three recollections. 1. Audrey's Grandfather Sir William Goscombe-John did a bronze bust of her "Audrey, A Young Actress" which I believe to be in the Goscombe-John collection at Cardiff Castle. I have a photo in a box I could dig out. 2. Audrey was on the cover of British Vogue in the early 1950's. Sadly I don't have a copy. 3. Alec Guinness, with whom Audrey appeared in "Kind Hearts and Coronets" mentions her briefly in his autobiography "Blessings in Disguise." I realise Audrey is now a minor figure, but I would like to see her Wikipedia entry continue. Thanks for putting the time in to support keeping the entry. Paul SonsPaulandNicholas (talk) 12:09, 2 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @SonsPaulandNicholas Well, as you can see, I've done what I can with your information - and spent far too much of my life on this as I'm moving house in a week and ought to be decluttering and packing but have leapt at an excuse to play around with Wikipedia instead. It's fascinating that Miss Design's questions are so similar to William Morris's "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful or believe to be beautiful" (or is that Ruskin? - I know it gets misattributed to the other one, either way), as your Mother went on to be a member of the WM Soc. Pam  D  14:11, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Real Life calls
I'm logging out for a while : too much to do outside Wikipedia. I'll be back. Pam D  09:55, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

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MACIF (disambiguation)
Hi @PamD. Could you have a look at my comments for you here: Talk:MACIF (disambiguation)

PS: I never know if I should post on someone's page or directly in the talk page. simon (talk) 20:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Royal College of Midwives logo 2020.png
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:41, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

September 2023 at Women in Red
--Victuallers (talk) 16:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

A sad day for Wikipedia
We have lost an intelligent, collegial, and hugely energetic editor with whom it was a pleasure to interact. The encyclopedia will be a poorer place, and less well categorised, without her. Pam D  03:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Smallcat
Hi PamD.

I saw your question.

I don't know if I can thread in there somewhere, so I thought I'd respond to your question here, if that's ok with you.

There are those who seem to really really want a set number to these things. And while I understand that want, it's never worked and - to my eye at least - trying to "count" some number, has seemingly continued to cause disruption over years at CfD.

I think the question of asking "how many", is in and of itself a flawed question. And has been pretty much ever since the text was added. It's been re-written many times, but it still remains contentious. I just don't think something like that is really a "guideline", as I just don't think it really has "consensus".

I think the one place that most may agree is that this is something that varies by topic and implementation. Which, I think, is the source of the wording "part of an overall tree" (or however it's phrased at this given moment). But the phrasing of "small" in "smallcat", just seems to get in the way of that.

I think things like this are why we have discussions at CfD, and that we should be looking at categories and category trees based upon their merits and not merely upon a "count". That was the idea when Radiant! added the word "handful", and I changed that to "a few" back in 2006. But it's never really worked.

So as of right now, while I would welcome discussion on a replacement (and there are several people looking at this, I think), but I'm thinking that, whether there is a replacement or not, the current guideline should go.

I tried to more fully explain in these comments here. So maybe those may help as well. I really am hoping that we can hear from people about this. Because how things are now, is - in my estimation - just going to perpetuate more problems. And I do not want to see that.

Anyway, I sincerely welcome your thoughts. - jc37 18:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Creating new categories
There is a proposal under consideration which would disallow the creation of new categories, even in existing hierarchies, unless they have at least "n" (perhaps 5) members. Personally I think this is a dreadful idea. Recent categories I have created include:
 * Category:Chancellors of Walter Sisulu University
 * Category:Jamaican short story collections
 * Category:Museums in the Outer Hebrides
 * Category:Nigerien architects
 * Category:University of Borås alumni

In each case fitting neatly into an existing hierarchy of similar categories for other countries, districts, or universities.

If we are not allowed to create such a category for its first member, I don't see when it will be created: am I expected to trawl through a list of all African architects to see if I can find five Nigeriens (not Nigerians) before creating the category? The discussion is at Merge for now and the discussion at User_talk:Marcocapelle clarifies that the intention would indeed be to forbid the creation of those categories. Pam D  07:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

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New page patrol October 2023 Backlog drive
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Books & Bytes – Issue 58
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John Quenby
https://www.motorsportuk.org/john-quenby-1941-2023/ 2A02:586:CC37:59BD:75E5:DB29:652C:1C89 (talk) 09:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)


 * That does not say when he died. It says when Motorsport UK published a notice that it had heard of his death. See the linked-in message discussed at Talk:John Quenby. Pam  D  11:43, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

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DYK for Julia Masli
—Kusma (talk) 00:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC) GalliumBot (talk • contribs) (he/it) 03:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

WP:EL
In response to this edit. Please read WP:ELMINOFFICIAL. The external link section is not for interesting links about a subject. Just the official link (or in rare cases where there is more than one official link but they do not link to eachother, links). We can use the interview as a reference tho! Polygnotus (talk) 01:44, 21 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @Polygnotus It was not included as an official website, but under WP:ELYES #3.  Pam  D  05:16, 21 September 2023 (UTC)