User talk:Rich Farmbrough/Archive/2014 August

The Signpost: 30 July 2014

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Wikidata weekly summary #120
Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week. Read the full report &middot; Unsubscribe &middot; John F. Lewis 23:42, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Discussions
 * Open RfAs: Gabbe
 * Events/Blogs/Press
 * List of Wikidata talks at Wikimania 2014
 * Other Noteworthy Stuff
 * Wikidata's new Main page is almost ready to go live, but is still in need of a visually-appealing banner! Got an idea for an eye-catching design that represents what Wikidata's all about? Submit proposals before August 11 at d:Wikidata:Portal Redesign/Banner
 * Wikidata's tours are now translatable. You may help translating at d:Wikidata:Tours/Items and d:Wikidata:Tours/Statements.
 * Did you know?
 * Newest properties: published in
 * Showcase items: Kleinmachnow
 * Development
 * Created CLI script to import entities into the QueryEngine store (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Querycli.jpg)
 * More work on redirects (should be good to deploy on August 19th)
 * More work on the monolingual datatype
 * Started work on rewriting the sitelinks part of the user interface (that’s the first coding steps of getting us a new user interface design)
 * Final touches on badges (should be good to deploy on August 19th)
 * Monthly Tasks
 * Hack on one of these.
 * Help fix these items which have been flagged using Wikidata - The Game.
 * Help develop the next summary here!
 * Contribute to a Showcase item

Category:Biography articles without listas parameter
Hello: Some time ago you commented about how Smackbot was clearing up the backlog. (Category talk:Biography articles without listas parameter) I see the number is back up to 60k. How bots work is quite a mystery to me – they seem like incantations. So I surmise that Smackbot takes the defaultsort data on the article page and converts it to listas data on the talk page WikiProject Biography banner. If this is the case, how can Smackbot be reactivated to perform the task. (I'm also asking Jim Cubb to help.) Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 19:04, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That is the easy way.  The bot also knew a bit about names, effectively it was a mini-expert system. However I need to get my friends at ArbCom to revoke their sanctions on me doing useful stuff before I can help much. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:11, 3 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Thanks for the quick response. Alas, if the easy way can't be used then the listing will only expand. Sorry to hear about sanctions. – S. Rich (talk) 19:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer RfC draft principles & findings
Hello. This is a courtesy note that the draft findings and principles in the Media Viewer RfC case have now been posted. The drafters of the proposed decision anticipate a final version of the PD will be posted after 11 August. You are welcome to give feedback on the workshop page. For the Committee, Lord Roem ~ (talk) 02:41, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox road/shieldmain/US
Template:Infobox road/shieldmain/US has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. KylieTastic (talk) 19:05, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Common era
Hi Rich, I notice you have changed BCE to BC. I realise this is to some extent a matter of taste (see Common Era). My reasoning for BCE is that the usage of the BCE/CE notation in textbooks and by academics is growing; it seems to be widely used in Wikipedia; and it respects the use of the Christian calendar by non-Christians. I dont have time to change all the BCEs in my various articles to BC and nor would I wish to. It would be a nice gesture, as I am the major author of this article, if you would respect my original wishes. Thanks.  Granitethighs  02:41, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I will look at this again after Wikimania, if that's OK. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC).

Polandball
Hi, I have recently expanded and rewritten the Polandball article at Draft:Polandball. I have also requested undeletion of the original article (that should never have been deleted in the first place) at Deletion_review/Log/2014_August_6. I am leaving you this message as you seem like a nice bloke, plus I've noticed your comic on Commons :) 185.49.15.25 (talk) 07:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it is an article that should never have been deleted in my opinion. Unfortunately some folk (not Poles as far as I can tell) believe that it falls under Rabbie Burns categorization of things that even to mention would be unlawfu' . All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:23, 6 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Hey Rich, you might like to look at this. Cheers mate. 80.109.48.204 (talk) 09:03, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 06 August 2014

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Initial speed reading/ brain-state-dump
Hi, I'm still in london, and need to sort out, among other things, how on *earth* I'm going to get all my wikimania swag across the channel.

So I am speed-reading. Please imagine I used my [citation needed] stamp all across the below, since I still need to check *everything*, and one small detail might send me down another branch of the tree.

Braindumping the current graph_in_my_head to text:

State of the universe:
 * you are "correctly" sanctioned for violating applicable policy
 * the applicable policy is possibly insane. (what else is new).
 * It may be inevitable to get into trouble if you approach the policy from an IAR stance
 * It may be impractical to approach the policy from a strict adherence stance.

proposed course of action:
 * You would like to go back to automated editing on wikipedia
 * The arbcom can only make decisions based on policy
 * current policy may be insane
 * It may be impossible for the arbcom to give you a remedy within their remit.

first conclusions:

Ergo: Petitioning arbcom is not a valid first move. :-/

What would be a valid move might be to get bot editing policies re-examined.

However, modifying policy post ~2010 can be very hard. I have not examined current policy yet.

So that's my current brain-state-dump; I may reload it later and modify it to more accurately and precisely reflect reality.

--Kim Bruning (talk) 10:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The thinking about remits might give me a possible avenue (wrt BAG), but I'd need to do a bunch of reading first. --Kim Bruning (talk) 13:29, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Kim, I started drafting a possibly useful response in another tag, but got caught up in some editing and (re)reading some research papers on WP. I'll try and finish that response fairly quickly. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC).


 * I lost that tab, it's quicker to retype the first bit. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:13, 11 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Thanks again Kim, here are some comments:
 * Firstly I too am having to re-read everything to remind myself what is what.
 * If indeed I had broken policy, specifically bot policy, I would have been able to grovel, and promise not to do it again, and everything would probably have been over by now. Indeed it is and was tempting to to do that anyway.  Trouble is this stuff goes on record and you become "mad bad and dangerous to know" as one off-wiki site describes me.  (I think it's probably a compliment in that context, but it's hard to tell.)
 * So there are two findings that appear to relate to bot policy (if we ignore struck finding which made up its own bot policy)
 * So there are two findings that appear to relate to bot policy (if we ignore struck finding which made up its own bot policy)

Nub

 * Finding 5, which is a perfectly reasonable finding on its face, but ignores the fact that there is no policy compelling editors to identify publicly which software they are using to edit. Indeed to so compel would probably be contrary to the privacy policy and the terms of use.
 * Finding 4 on the other hand cites "letter and spirit of bot policy" (without, of course, quoting the policy) and gives four alleged examples, apparently supported by links.
 * running high-speed tasks without sufficient approval ,
 * running high-volume tasks without sufficient approval
 * running bot tasks from a non-bot account ,
 * running unapproved bot tasks.
 * Taking these in order:
 * There is no bot policy that says that high speed manual tasks need approval. In fact current WP:BOTPOL specifically says Note that merely editing quickly, particularly for a short time, is not by itself disruptive.
 * There is no bot policy that says that high volume manual tasks need approval. That would be absurd.
 * It is not the case that a task that is permitted automatically is prohibited manually. CBM has often stated that this is policy, but I have never seen this piece of folklore anywhere else than in this case and in comments by CBM.
 * It is a generally accepted principle that bots using AWB may perform "general fixes" at the same time. One admin took exception to one of these fixes against consensus, and repeatedly blocked the bot.
 * There is no bot policy that says that high volume manual tasks need approval. That would be absurd.
 * It is not the case that a task that is permitted automatically is prohibited manually. CBM has often stated that this is policy, but I have never seen this piece of folklore anywhere else than in this case and in comments by CBM.
 * It is a generally accepted principle that bots using AWB may perform "general fixes" at the same time. One admin took exception to one of these fixes against consensus, and repeatedly blocked the bot.


 * This benefits the wiki by getting the fixes in earlier, reducing the number of edits, saving time for editors doing general fixing (either with AWB, or any other means). Clearly this requires that AWB general fixes are non-contentious, and so they are.  Moreover the extremely hard-working AWB maintainers are very responsive to the community, and helpful to users of the tool in ensuring that this remains the case.


 * The change that CBM objected to were the fixing of out-of-order references. He claimed, contrary to consensus, that this constituted a change in "referencing style" against WP:CITESYLE.  CBM repeatedly insisted that I should get the source code of AWB and edit it to remove the fix he didn't like - it is patently obvious that he should have addressed his issue to the developers of AWB (who would probably have turned him down) rather than fixing one instance of many people and bots running AWB.  I remarked at the end of a long thread on this subject, "Actually I have started a conversation on getting a split of approved and non-approved GF's at WP:AWB. I simply don't think that maintaining my own version of AWB is the way to go, even if I had the C# experience and the desire and time. It also happens that I find the particular change in question a strange sticking point. Anyway with a little luck that is behind us now. "


 * Subsequent events proved this assessment correct.


 * Eventually the pressure was such that I did create a fork, and of course version control issues emerged which resulted in regressions. Hence the repeated blocks, none of which were necessary as SmackBot was responsive to talk page messages!


 * All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:40, 11 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Retain a bit longer Rich Farmbrough, 19:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC).

Wikidata weekly summary #121
Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week. Read the full report &middot; Unsubscribe &middot; Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) 23:57, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Events/Blogs/Press
 * Wikimania \o/ It was amazing and Wikidata all over the place. Wikidata's true potential is starting to show.
 * Guided tours and Wikidata: How to explain a complex project and encourage new editors
 * Other Noteworthy Stuff
 * Editing Wikidata directly from Wikipedia
 * Histropedia now uses Wikidata to build timelines
 * Slides and videos of first Wikidata talks at Wikimania online: 1 2 3 (more slides and videos will follow))
 * First prototype screenshot of asking questions to Wikipedia mobile readers (similar to Wikidata the Game)
 * Userboxes
 * Did you know?
 * Newest WikiProjects: WikiProject Interesting Content, WikiProject sum of all paintings
 * Development
 * Attended Wikimania and Socrates
 * Worked on rewriting the sitelinks part of the user interface to make it ready for the new user interface design
 * Discussed Wikidata, structured data on Commons and a ton of other things with many people at Wikimania
 * Monthly Tasks
 * Hack on one of these.
 * Help fix these items which have been flagged using Wikidata - The Game.
 * Help develop the next summary here!
 * Contribute to a Showcase item

Media Viewer RfC arbitration case - extension of closure dates
Hello, you are receiving this message because you have commented on the Media Viewer RfC arbitration case. This is a courtesy message to inform you that the closure date for the submission of evidence has been extended to 17 August 2014 and the closure date for workshop proposals has been extended to 22 August 2014, as has the expected date of the proposed decision being posted. The closure dates have been changed to allow for recent developments to be included in the case. If you wish to comment, please review the evidence guidance. For the Arbitration Committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:00, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

 * There is no doubt in my mind that the majority of the on-line en:WP community gets along just fine. Most of the rest of the problems are attributable to communication difficulty and lack of trust (also known as WP:AGF).  Post every Wikimania, these problems should be reduced fora while, so I feel better.  I am irritated that one ABF I came across appears to be entranced and unresolvable on a personal level, even if it is on a process level, but it's good to know these things.
 * My cultural concerns at the moment are:
 * Community-Foundation relationship
 * The apparent inconsistency and (for some definite) lack of trust exhibited by the admin corps, as exposed by SalimJah's research
 * Issues around Wikipedia folklore - matters that are received wisdom and are simply not so (or are unknown).
 * Whether we (movement/community/foundation) can supply training in soft skills to staff, functionaries and editors, notably in:
 * Online communication
 * Ethics
 * Facilitation, mediation and arbitration
 * I would also like to see more work developing metrics for good actor/bad actor identification. I was convinced before Wikimania that this is possible, and am more convinced now that this is possible.  It would help to establish whether and when "good content, annoying editor" is a criteria for community action, and inform the community better about how disruptive certain actions are, or indeed are not.
 * Thanks for the coffee! All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC).

Hi Rich. Just wanted to say hello too. We briefly met on the Saturday evening and had a discussion about tractors and old British car companies. Nice to meet some Wikipedians in the flesh. Cheers, Number   5  7  21:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes that was an interesting chat. The Pick Motor Company was the one I referred to, I have not contributed to the article yet! All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:56, 13 August 2014 (UTC).

Archive.is RfC
Rich, you may want to have a look at this - it looks indeed like you !voted twice in the section, #33 and #42 (but I may be mistaken). Best --Dirk Beetstra T  C 03:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep! The sections are so long I thought I hadn't !voted on that one. Incidentally there is a tool that counts votes and detects duplicates, someone mentioned it at Wikimania. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 04:20, 14 August 2014 (UTC).

Template:Weather box
Hello Rich Farmbrough,

I've been trying to use Template:Weather box in an article but I need help with calculations for the monthly "Record High" and "Record Low". Will appreciate if you could assist me. Thanks. Stanleytux (talk) 20:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Stanleytux! What data do you have? as the template documentation says

"Note that record temperatures should be used sparingly in main city articles, and should only be used when the data period is of the greatest length possible."


 * All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:55, 13 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Thanks for the response, I found out that the page where the data I was working on has been moved. It took sometime but I finally found where it was moved to, the data can now be viewed here. I'd like to obtain the monthly "Record High" and "Record Low" from that data given there. If you can help, will really appreciate it. Stanleytux (talk) 17:36, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, the record high and record low aren't present there, and they cannot be worked out. The best thing is to leave these fields out unless more data can be sourced.
 * This page shows that the data exists, but I can't find it online.
 * All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:31, 14 August 2014 (UTC).

Roll out of template
Hi Rich, Any thoughts on Template talk:Language with name? Yaris678 (talk) 15:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Commented there. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC).

Wikidata weekly summary #122
Wikidata weekly summary #114

Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week. Read the full report &middot; Unsubscribe &middot; John F. Lewis 13:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Discussions
 * Open RfOS: John F. Lewis
 * Other Noteworthy Stuff
 * Help choose which banner will be featured on the new Main page! Click here to view the two banner candidates and leave your feedback before August 20th 16:00 UTC.
 * Wikidata Translate, a Wikidata-based Google translator open source clone.
 * Did you know?
 * Newest properties: journey destination, score method, grave picture, present in work, Fide ID, Norsk filmografi ID, Jewish Encyclopedia ID, plea, collection size
 * New task forces: WikiProject Movies
 * Development
 * Finished a large number of new features and got them ready for roll-out. More in this email.
 * Wikibase made a big step forward to finally switch to DataModel 1.0.
 * Improved support for entity IDs bigger than 2 billion (32 bit integer).
 * We had to adapt Wikibase to some major changes (more major than usual, partly caused by discussions at Wikimania) in MediaWiki core: The default Vector skin became it’s own component and the ResourceLoader got some small but important updates.
 * Continued work on refactoring code of the user interface to make it ready for new design
 * Wrote a script to get number of users having wikidata in their recent changes/watchlist from the database
 * Monthly Tasks
 * Hack on one of these.
 * Help fix these items which have been flagged using Wikidata - The Game.
 * Help develop the next summary here

The Signpost: 13 August 2014

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John Bunnnion listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect John Bunnnion. Since you had some involvement with the John Bunnnion redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Fram (talk) 07:58, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

"B-Double-O-T-Y listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect &. Since you had some involvement with the "B-Double-O-T-Y redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Fram (talk) 08:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 August 2014

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Wikidata weekly summary #123
Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week. Read the full report &middot; Unsubscribe &middot; Lydia Pintscher (WMDE) 20:29, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Events/Blogs/Press
 * Wikidata at Wikimania 2014 in London
 * "Growing items" by User:Micru, an essay about modelling concepts and understanding items
 * Other Noteworthy Stuff
 * The new Main page will go live early next week! See the announcement at Project chat for more details and to leave any last comments
 * It will be possible to show the badges like "Featured Article" stored on Wikidata in the sidebar of the clients (Wikipedia, Wikisource, ...) starting Tuesday. Wikipedia will follow on Thursday.
 * Starting Tuesday we will deploy a new beta feature on the clients. It will allow you to show links to other sister projects in the sidebar based on the links in Wikidata.
 * Planning for structured data support for Commons is starting to pick up speed. Get involved: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/multimedia/2014-August/000774.html Also maybe attend the office hour?
 * Did you know?
 * Newest properties: list of monuments, list of works, legal form, catholic.ru ID, motto, Sandbox Monolingual text, nickname, official name, Sports Reference ID, people missing, fictional universe described in
 * Newest WikiProjects: WikiProject Structured Data for Commons
 * Development
 * Deployed lots of new features like badges, access to language links for Wikinews and Wikidata, the monolingual text data type and redirects!
 * Working hard on making the new UI a reality, mainly refactoring the UI widgets right now. Covers a lot of ground and will take some time.
 * More work on HHVM issues that need to be fixed before Wikidata can switch to it.
 * Monthly Tasks
 * Hack on one of these.
 * Help fix these items which have been flagged using Wikidata - The Game.
 * Help develop the next summary here!
 * Contribute to a Showcase item

Teahouse v CfD
Would you find the teahouse to be more useful than the CFD forum? And please call me by my first name Kristine. I will respond much quicker this way. Venustar84 (talk) 00:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes Kristine, it is more useful for getting explanations. But sometimes experience is useful.  Similarly we can explain how AfD is supposed to work, but looking at a few AfDs is probably a good idea to understand what actually happens.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC).

Media Viewer RfC arbitration case - motion to suspend case
You are receiving this message as you have either commented on a case page or are named as a party to the case. A motion has been proposed to suspend the Media Viewer RfC arbitration case for a maximum of 60 days due to recent developments. If you wish to comment regarding the motion there is a section on the proposed decision talk page for this. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs). Message delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 02:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Listas question
There are over 100 of pages with the title like "List of.."(example List of people from Saint John, New Brunswick, List of people from St. Catharines} Main problem is that they have got biography wikiproject added to their talk pages. So what will be the correct listas parameter for them?  Occult Zone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 03:41, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Nice question! I would say "  " - the leading space should top-sort them, which is what we usually do with lists.  All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:45, 25 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Hm... that may be right, but they will also be top-sorted in other categories. And they include many list categories.  Have to think a little more. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:47, 25 August 2014 (UTC).


 * You can top-sort with ! (as I have done for List of people from Saint John, New Brunswick, temporarily) but the standard is to sort "listas=Alchemists, List of".  Not sure this is optimum, but it works for all the list-class categories.  It might be worth changing the WikiProject Biography banner to sort List Class articles by "! in  Category:Biography articles of living people only. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:58, 25 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Absolutely and I have a doubt if any of these list articles really require a biography wikiproject. Most of the articles on wikipedia includes the name of a person, doesn't means that each of them would require a biography wikiproject. There is some doubt, I will update you.  Occult Zone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 04:44, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * There are two reasons that spring to mind: BLP issues "List of terrorists" and biographical detail like birth and death dates. But really it is up to the WikiProject. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 11:41, 25 August 2014 (UTC).

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment started
I have started Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment. Fram (talk) 08:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Richard. I enjoyed having a catch-up dinner with you at Wikimania, you viewpoint is always intelligent and illuminating.

I am thinking of writing a short statement against any sanction in the above clarification request, on the basis that Arbcom members would find it much more productive and enlightening to take time to have a 5 minute chat with you on a Google hangout about perceived problems with automation, or the assertions of an (apparent) form of meat-puppetry, rather than making a weeks long time-wasting legal case out of it. I really don't see at this point how years of sanctions, bans, and endless negativity are in the least bit helpful for the community, or in any way harness your talent and creativity for this project.

Drop me an email if you would like to discuss it before I commit stylus to tablet.

Cheers --Fæ (talk) 09:36, 25 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks.
 * I doubt that the Committee would wish to sanction me for encouraging people to create articles, but you never know.
 * I have already invited all the committee members to talk to me, in person or by email, or on-wiki (they would be welcome to talk by telephone or Skype, if they wished - or indeed this "Google hangout" of which you speak, sounds a bit hippy... ).  Two took me up on it at Wikimania, and it was certainly a learning experience.
 * Of course you must make whatever statement you feel appropriate.
 * All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Good, I'm glad you got a chance for personal chats with committee members. I only had a chance for a reasonably long chat with one, which was helpful (around an Arbcom governance/transparency matter), though afterwards I felt a bit more depressed about the future of this particular project. Demonstrating that you are open to friendly improvement helps a lot, maybe enough to avoid some pointless bureaucracy. I'll hold off for a while and see what sort of initial responses the case gets, as anything I say I'd like to be one shot and nicely brief. --Fæ (talk) 13:44, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 27 August 2014

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